Ignore, legalise or deport?

The United States of America is wrestling with what to do about the estimated 11 million illegal migrants in the country.

Meanwhile in the UK, the IPPR is arguing that the estimated 500,000 illegal migrants already here should be granted an amnesty. The IPPR believes the impractability and costs of deportation makes regularisation the only viable option. They also argue it will be a boost for the Treasury with £1bn extra in revenue. Full report.

  • Brian Boru

    I don’t agree with my govt’s position in nagging the US Congress and Bush to let all the illegal Irish stay. Those who left when Ireland was poor maybe should be let stay. But those who left in the past 10 years have no excuses as far as I am concerned, as they were fleeing the fastest economic boom in the Western world. At most the govt should seek only to allow those who left in hard times to stay.

    I am concerned that the govt’s position is giving anti-deportation groups a propaganda victory in Ireland regarding bogus asylum-seekers here. They should bear that in mind. We already have the highest rate of immigration in the world and will be a minority in our own country if this continues. Assimilation is necessary to avoid ghettoisation and French-style problems. We need to gear the education system towards state-sponsored patriotism along US lines. The US is the only Western country to successfully assimilate so many immigrants from cultures radically different from the West. This is in no small part due to the culture of patriotism in the schools e.g. children pledge loyalty to the flag, sing the national anthem. Martin Brady TD of FF is calling for these kinds of changes in the school system and I hope the govt takes it on board.

  • observer

    These criminals should be deported without delay

  • fair_deal

    observer

    Fair enough.

    To achieve this, how do you find them? What gets cut to find the £4.7bn for deportation?

  • observer

    the us should use whatever means it has at its disposal to find these criminals and deport them

    didnt a number of them assemble recently in washington?

  • Keith M

    BB ” don’t agree with my govt’s position in nagging the US Congress and Bush to let all the illegal Irish stay.”

    That wasn’t their position, they did not support recent emigrants.

    The US is a country build by emigrants and should adopt a policy similar to Australia. In areas where there are skills and labour shortages, emigration should be encouraged. People with no useful skills moving to areas will no labour shortage only serve to depress the labour market, impacting everyone and should be deported asap.

  • fair_deal

    “whatever means it has at its disposal to find these criminals and deport them ”

    Fair enough. So how do you find them? What gets cut to cover the costs of deportation?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: Actually, they don’t *have* to find them.

    Step One: Make it clear there is not going to be an amnesty for those illegals already in the States.

    Step Two: Make illegal entry and staying a felony

    Step Three: Make it a felony to employ an illegal alien.

    Step Four: Get control of the border, using both physical and technological barriers. This includes creating databases of the DNA and other identifiers for those caught entering or residing illegally in the United States, fences, drones, physical patrols… whatever it takes.

    Steps one and two simply set the table. Steps three and four, however, do the job — remove / diminish the economic incentive to hire illegals, then they destroy / diminish the incentive for them to enter the country, while making entry sufficiently difficult to further diminish the attractiveness… Dam the river and let the swamp drain on its own.

  • The Devil

    They are nothing to do with us anymore they lost their citizenship of this country once they decided to jump ship for financial reasons… so fuck em.

    Give em all Shemagh scarfs and a camel each and let them loose in Arizona, then they could use them for target practice instead of innocent Iraqis women and children.

  • Dread, that is about what the House proposed that opened up this can of frijoles. Yesterday there were half a million Mexicans on the streets of
    Dallas that was the largest rally in Tx history. They are supported by big business that wants the cheap labor, the Catholic Church (membership) and the left who wants to stir things up. I have nothing against the illegals, except that because their numbers have reached critical mass, they have the brass balls to dictate to Congress what “rights” they have. Illegal behaviour shouldn’t be rewarded.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    ch in Texas: “I have nothing against the illegals, except that because their numbers have reached critical mass, they have the brass balls to dictate to Congress what “rights” they have. Illegal behaviour shouldn’t be rewarded.”

    That’s pretty much it on a Ritz.

    One of the grand ironies is that, under the laws of Mexico, American citizens couldn’t have a counter protest south of the Rio Grande.

    Personally, I think an amnesty would be stupid — all you are doing is rewarding those people who jumped the queue and punishing those who have chosen to play by the rules and laws.

  • fair_deal

    dread culthu

    This is becoming a repetition of the same approach with a different emphasis but doesn’t deal with the practicalities.

    “they don’t *have* to find them.”
    “Step Two: Make illegal entry and staying a felony”

    If you want to charge them you do have to find them. Also if simply passing a law stopped the form of illegal activity then there would be no crime. What other crimes do enforcement agencies reduce a focus upon so they can focus on illegal migrants? Can the US prison system cope with hundreds of thousands of new prisoners (and where do the children go)? In the UK, the prison system is a few hundred off full capacity so were do we put these thousands of prisoners if we enacted such laws? How are the additional costs covered?

    “Step Three: Make it a felony to employ an illegal alien.”

    Again this needs enforced.

    “Step Four: Get control of the border, using both physical and technological barriers. This includes creating databases of the DNA and other identifiers for those caught entering or residing illegally in the United States, fences, drones, physical patrols… whatever it takes.”

    I have no problem with good and robust border controls. However, in a UK context as the IPPR report shows most illegals originally had legal status so robust border controls don’t stop them.

    I couldn’t go for the DNA stuff too much like Big Brother for my tastes.

    There are two different debates. How do you stop illegal migration as much as possible? What do you do with the large numbers already here?

    “punishing those who have chosen to play by the rules and laws.”

    If they played by the rules and were entitled to a visa they would have been granted entry so how have they been punished?

  • Tochais Siorai

    Could the Irish govt. enter into a bilateral treaty with the US offering an equivalent no. of US citizens the same rights here as demanded by the Irish there?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair Deal: If you want to charge them you do have to find them. Also if simply passing a law stopped the form of illegal activity then there would be no crime. What other crimes do enforcement agencies reduce a focus upon so they can focus on illegal migrants? Can the US prison system cope with hundreds of thousands of new prisoners (and where do the children go)? In the UK, the prison system is a few hundred off full capacity so were do we put these thousands of prisoners if we enacted such laws? How are the additional costs covered? ”

    Ah, you still don’t get it. If you want to drain a swimming pool, you shut off the in-flow valve. The change in the law is primarily a deterrent — an additional club in the bag. Additionally, the U.S. was adding some 15K to 20K border patrol. Likewise, focusing on these law-breakers will prevent other crimes — if the counties along the US border were a single state, they would top several categories of crime.

    As for the criminals jumping the border (what part of “illegal” don’t you get?), establish an expedted process, deport them to somplace beyond the border region and make skipping the border less attractive.

    Fair Deal: “I have no problem with good and robust border controls. However, in a UK context as the IPPR report shows most illegals originally had legal status so robust border controls don’t stop them. ”

    Given the requirements to simply study abroad in England once upon a time, how do you just “lose” these people?

    Fair Deal: “If they played by the rules and were entitled to a visa they would have been granted entry so how have they been punished? ”

    For starters, in the United States, there is a move to normalize the illegals. How do you explain to the folks who are waiting for green cards and are playing by the rules letting folks who jumped the queue go ahead of them? What message are you sending?

  • Get a load of this website. It is certainly a fringe group, however it borders on insurrection. I was gonna compare them them to the ra, but why get that started!

  • Rory

    Perhaps only the peoples of the Indian Nations should have a vote on this.

  • lib2016

    There were perfectly reasonable decent people who explained that the legal requirement to protect the rights of property meant that one couldn’t possibly attack slavery, far less support the ‘freedom railway’.

    Glad to say that I’m neither reasonable nor decent on this question, nor are an increasingly large minority. Support economic refugees now, wherever and whenever!

    This might be our lifeboat but I’m not about to support those who want to step on anyone’s hands. The world’s getting smaller and the multinationals will use this issue to play us off against each other.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    lib2016: “Glad to say that I’m neither reasonable nor decent on this question, nor are an increasingly large minority. Support economic refugees now, wherever and whenever! ”

    I have no problem with legal immigration. That said, those who sneak across the border in the dark of the night in defiance of law should be sent back to their native country, perhaps with a pamphlet on the immigration process… If they cannot respect the laws and norms of the nation, they have no business being there.

  • lib2016

    In purely practical terms this is a war we can’t win. We could put machine gun posts on every headland and we are still going to be faced with large pockets of immigrants living outside the law, depressing wages, and destroying any hopes of building an inclusive society. That’s the price we pay for getting rich.

    The only responsible way forward is to build global solidarity against the multinationals by finding ways to guarantee global minimum wages and minimum work conditions, combined with reasonable acess to jobs.

    To take too legalistic an approach would be selfdefeating. As is currently being worked out in the States ways have to be found to absorb the ‘illegals’.

    Those ‘illegals’ are the enterprising go-ahead people our aging societies need. Surprising how often the right thing to do is the right thing.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    lib2016: “The only responsible way forward is to build global solidarity against the multinationals by finding ways to guarantee global minimum wages and minimum work conditions, combined with reasonable acess to jobs.”

    Stuff and nonsense. If you “build solidarity against the multinationals,” you end up killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. Global minimum wages will only prevent less technological nations from being able to compete on price. Minimum work conditions? I’d buy this solely on humanitarian grounds. Reasonable access to jobs — never happen. There will always be places that are more favorable for employers than others. That is just a fact.

    These issues, however, have nothing to do with illegal immigration.

    lib2016: “To take too legalistic an approach would be selfdefeating. As is currently being worked out in the States ways have to be found to absorb the ‘illegals’.”

    Depends on your perspective. There are a number of jobs that used to command decent pay and safety conditions, prior to the current deluge of illegal aliens, such as meat-cutting and construction. Those at the bottom of the educational hierarchy suffer the most under such a regieme. Rewarding these people for breaking the law will only encourage others to do so.

    Thusly, as an equitable measure, the border should be controlled, the illegal aliens should be encouraged to leave, even if it is to apply for a guest worker program and border security should be taken seriously. Additionally, I wouldn’t be suprised if the United States made moves to eliminate “citizenship tourists.”

  • lib2016

    Dread Cthulhu,

    You may believe that we can erect an Iron Curtain between rich and poor but experience has taught us that it simply won’t work.

    I’m not saying that there are easy instant cures but that the brotherhood of man is a reality, not in some misty sentimental sense but in the very real sense that trying to preserve our own wealth at the expense of our less fortunate neighbours won’t work in the long or even the medium term.

    Look at every empire which ever existed. It’s in our own interests not to exploit the Third World but to help them join the rest of the post-industrial world.

    It’s going to happen anyway – the growth of the new democratic industrial powers in the Pacific over the next twenty/thirty years will see to that.

  • Brian Boru

    “Those ‘illegals’ are the enterprising go-ahead people our aging societies need. Surprising how often the right thing to do is the right thing.”

    So all illegals are enterprising are they? None are organised criminals? More Political-Correctness.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    lib2016: “You may believe that we can erect an Iron Curtain between rich and poor but experience has taught us that it simply won’t work. ”

    Don’t put words in my mouth, lib2016. I am a cheerful free-trader libertarian. All I am saying is that your “vision” leads to stagnation and despair. I’m sorry that the ‘dismal science’ says your cotton-candy future is a pipe-dream, but there it stands. Your “one sie fits all” will do more to harm the third world than help it. Better to bite the bullet, remove the trade barriers and quotas and welcome the third world. Once the third world can get an honest price for their goods, we can start making things better.

    The problem is the likes of France, with its parochial agricultural regiemes. Once the governments get out of market prices, we can get a real view of where we stand.

    Not every nation can grow up to be the next Sweden or Finland, lib2016. Likewise, the socialist liberal squishiness of these states sow the seeds of their downfall — look at what is happening in Malmo, where Muslim immigrants have created “no-go” areas where firemen and paramedics won’t go without police escorts — hell, the *police* won’t go some places with a police escort.

    Rhetorical flourishes aside, I suspect we’re probably not that far off… we just concern ourselves with different parts of the elephant.

  • Occasional Commentator

    This argument over what to do with the illegals is a bit pointless. The first thing every country needs to do is make up their bloody mind what immigration policy they want. It’s a joke to turn a blind eye and grant amnesties while simultaneously passing tighter immigration laws and employing immigration police.

    Governments of the world, make a clear decision for a change! Then implement that policy consistently and fairly, whether that be deporting loads of people or inviting in millions more. We need to crack down on the people smuggling trade by making it illegal to be involved in any way. What immigrants do come in should be law abiding people who’ve applied fairly and will pay their taxes.

    Also, those same people who want to end immigration need to think about much their cost of living would go up if their wish was granted. Cheap food and clothes et cetera are dependent on cheap labour in this part of the world and also far away.

    The sad reality is that the “immigration industry” – which includes the immigration police, the politicians, and many industries (manufacturing, catering, retail et cetera) as much as it includes the people smugglers themselves – feed off the fear and ignorance and confusion to feather their own nest.