Free Speech or Cynical Publicity Move? Blanket Cartoon Debate Part II

Sunday Sequence includes a debate between Anthony McIntrye, Blanket editor, and Brian Kelly, one of the former on-line publication’s contributors and signatory to a letter attacking the Editor for his decision to publish the now infamous Danish cartoons. There’s to be a public meeting at Queen’s University (Froggat Centre), organised by the Anti-Racism Network, during the week on the matter.

  • Malachi O’Doherty

    I am not impressed by how the critics of The Blanket marshal their arguments. They seem determined to make their case on a dismissal of the integrity of the editors and of The Blanket itself, as if this is all a symptom of it having gone downhill.
    I see no evidence of this at all.
    They argue that they would be equally averse to publishing anti Irish cartoons from 19th century Punch. But these have been republished, for instance by Liz Curtis in More of the Same Old Story, Pluto Press.
    If readers are to be informed about an issue they have to be shown what is at the heart of it.

    Ian Knox’s cartoons for Hearts and Minds often present Irish paramilitaries as folksy, diminutive, gormless and quaint. To a degree, every cartoon representation is stereotypical, because the language is image. We know that Knox does not actually believe that Ian Paisley looks like the figure he draws of him; that representing him, say, with slime running from his chops, is comment. It is not literal comment either. In a sense it asks the subject to consider if this is how he might look to others.

    There is an allegation that the hostility whipped up against the Danish cartoons was energised by fakes; more offensive cartoons still than those published in Denmark. If there is evidence of this, we should be shown those fakes too.

    If any paper or website wants to make the case that Islamic forces are anti Jewish and publish disgusting anti Jewish cartoons, then that paper should be free to publish those cartoons also to make its case.

    The source of the cartoons in a Danish paper, whose politics I am not familiar with, is irrelevant. The cartoons became a story when a political jihadist movement threatened those who dared publish them. The Blanket’s publishing of them does not associate The Blanket with the intentions of the first publisher. The story has moved on.

    If McIntyre was the first publisher of the cartoons then a strong case might be made against him publishing them, not on freedom of speech grounds but on editorial and taste issues – which in my experience feature much more prominently in discussions inside the media about how things are to be done.

    (For instance: after the Shankill Bomb, I recorded a vox pop among people who approved of the bomb, and the programme I worked on chose not to broadcast them, for fairly good reasons of sensitivity.)

    As it turns out, the cartoons are not that bad. The contrast of a blinded swordsman with women who have eyes to see and nothing else raises intriguing questions about what women in purda really think of the men who rule them, and in a succinct way that works.

    The image of suicide bombers running into Heaven to be told that all the virgins have been taken is simply funny. But it has a sting for anyone who takes religious mythology literally.

    And who does more to imply an association between Islam and terror; the cartoonist who shows Mohammed the Prophet (PBUH) with a bomb in his turban or the jihadist who says he will bomb you if you publish that cartoon?

    It is his reaction which has made the question a vital one.

  • missfitz

    I think that post is succint and absolutely spot on. I really didnt know how I felt about this issue, but after reflection I think it must be a case of publish and be damned.

    Malachi makes an excellent point about taste, and perhaps that is what a lot of this may boil down to. I may not approve of the material you publish, be it in Playboy or the Blanket or wherever, but I must defend your right to publish what you see fit.

    I think that reading the bio of the cartoonist in the Blanket also helped to further inform my opinion. It was interesting and enlightening to see exactly where she was coming from and what she had been through. Her right to freedom of expression and speech should be absolute.

  • I hate to just do an AOL!!11, but damn, Malachi, that is a fine retort.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Personally, I have a lot of problems with McIntyre’s politics but it is more than clear that he is a man of integrity and The Blanket is a fine example of local journalism. The decision to publish these pictures is a strike for free speech and fair play to him for putting his neck out.

    I flatly refuse to accept that someone can write down a fairytale, call it a religion, and then appoint themselves the right to censor disagreement with or satirism of it. Using the argument of those who favour censorship of anything that someone decides to be offended by, I could set up my new religion – let’s call it “Komrade Stalin’s Krazy Cult” – and declare artichokes to be banned as a satanic abomination and an affront to God. Would that mean I would have a right to send my fellow cultists around the country petrol-bombing greengrocers who refused to remove the repulsive filth from their stores ? Would I have a right to picket outside of the homes of the heathens who would dare to serve up haute cuisine containing the putrifying vegetable?

    This kind of crap was rubbish when the Catholic Church came out against The Life of Brian. It was an assault on free speech then, and it is an assault on free speech now.

  • Busty Brenda

    Malachi that is a very good argument, hard to argue with, BUT there is still a case to answer regards to taste and sensitivity. The sensitivity issue has not abated with time. I agree with you that those who oppose the blanket lay all its wrongs at the door of those who publish it, (ie mackers and his wife), but these people were not enemies of the blanket, far from it they were among its many contributors and supporters.Eamonn McCann was a contact to mackers in Derry, both people attended many events together,(ie the issue of coca cola for example, wasn’t it mc cann who introduced mackers to the person who worked for that company) and led mackers to claim that the drink would never again pass his lips?

    Mackers was/Is? heavily involved in the left, as regards to anti-racism etc. To offend a race of people, (lets not have the race religion debate here) was in my opinion quite silly of mackers to do so, when other ways could be found to make his point rather than to follow the lead of a Danish paper which had questionable motives in publishing them in the first place.

    There is a racial aspect to this, like it or not. Wed meeting and the article in todays paper (Sunday Life) points to the race element. do we really need a race issue now in NI?

    a middle of the road approach to the subject, with out the offence while still making your point would have ensured what the editors wanted to get accross to the public got accross, and avoided the damage done to their journal within their wide support base of the left.

    On another matter, I appreciated your stand against IRA paramalitaries in west belfast and realise you may want to side with mackers due to both your stands on that issue. But this is racism, not N irish sectarianism it’s time both were stamped out.

  • Felix Quigley

    I am afraid to say that O’Doherty is an opportunist in his reply above. The central thing about McIntyre which is most important in this debate is that he is a very strong supporter for years of the anti-Semitic Palestine terrorist movement against Israel.

    This debate is about Islamofascism, right?

    So why the silence from McIntyre in his website on the election of the worst Islamofascists on the planet, Hamas, which now control the Palestinians.

    McIntyre is silent on that as is O’Doherty.

    How can he possibly fight for free speech against the censure of the cartoons by the British GHovernment if he is silent on that.

    McIntyre also on his website made a direct attack on Milosevic and lined himself up on the side of the NATO fascist type court.

    Meanwhile the Blanket and SluggerOtoole has said not a word on the murder by NATO of Milosevic.

    The whole thing is opportunist and stinks.

    By the way McCann and McIntyre will be back together because their hatred of Israel is bigger than this.

  • Busty Brenda

    Can I also make the further point that the blanket is adding insult to insensitive injury by stretching this matter out over a twelve week period.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Give it a rest Quigley.
    The only interesting side issue to this debate is who is coming out of the woodwork to try and undermine The Blanket, a publication that in reality has a very narrow appeal and would be safely ignored by most normal political parties.
    But not the Shinners and their media/internet proxies.
    The intolerance of free speech here is truly disturbing. First the protestants, now the dissenters. So much for republicanism.

    PS: Also, just want to say again – Shame on you, Eamonn McCann.

  • brian kelly

    Malachi:

    I’ll admit to difficulty in ‘marshalling the arguments’ in the three minutes or so allotted on an early Sunday morning radio show. But even as barebones as it was, I think you have mischaracterized the argument from this side. It has very litle to do with the ‘integrity’ of the editors (of either the Blanket or the J-P) and much more to do with the context. The September launch was a calculated provocation, in which a right-wing newspaper with a lineage in pro-fascist sympathy in the 1930s (see their editorial 1933 offering support for dictatorship) and a recent record of persistent anti-immigrant xenophobia* ‘commissioned’ a set of cartoons to provoke a reaction. They were encouraged in this by a party (PVV) which has hitched its political fortunes to growing anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant sentiment, in a society where Muslims are almost completely ghettoized and seemingly trapped at the very bottom.

    Given that context the Blanket’s decision to run the cartoons under the guise of defending ‘free speech’ is disgraceful, in my view. I think that Anthony will find over the next several weeks that this sentiment is shared by many more who have written for the Blanket than the three who signed the Open Letter. More desertions on the way, I am sure. Of course there will be others–crackpots and others attracted to the new tolerance for racism–who will come on board to fill their shoes. See the recent letters for a sample of what’s to come.

    There are very serious, almost insurmountable threats to free speech and democratic rights across Europe and the west generally at the moment. But you’d have to work your way very far down the list to find anything that emanates from the marginalized, oft-vilified Muslim community in Europe. How about a President who openly contemplates bombing the only news organization doing a creditable job of reporting the war in Iraq objectively? Or Downing Street, which piles massive pressure on BBC to spin the war to Blair’s satisfaction? How about a White House which pays phoney ‘reporters’ to lob friendly questions from the Briefing Room? Or consults Hollywood to manufacture ‘news’ bulletins which it distributes to outlets across the world? Or targets the Palestine Hotel knowing that it is hq for journalists in Bahdad? Or commits $26m. to produce favorable coverage in the European press?

    The point about Punch, the racist anti-black caricatures of the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Nazi’s anti-semitic caricatures later on, is to oppose them when they appear, of course, and not more than a hundred years later. It has nothing to do with their republication in academic, other works. Silly point.

    Ditto with your logic about the bomber confirming ‘association’ with the sterotype in the cartoon. By that logic the onus is on the Irish laborer, the African-American ex-slave, the European Jew to PROVE that they do not ccconfrom to the stereotypes, and not on the cartoonists to refuse to take the low road. Ludicrous.

    And then there’s the war. During a week in which we’ve received confirmation that Derry City and Aldergrove are being used for ‘extraordinary renditions’, you describe a cartoon that depicts Muhammad informing his suicide-bombing minions that he’s run out of virgins ‘funny.’ Do you subscribe to the popular, Orientalist notion that the lure of virgins rather than, say, despair at the brutality that they and their loved ones suffer on an almost daily basis is what drives most of those who commit sucide bombings in the Middle East? Does it matter at all that the tactic is used by both religious and secular factions, eg Fatah, PFLP? Or that some of those who resort to it are women, who would presumably not find the offer of virgins? If either of these resonates, how would you explain the ‘message’ in the cartoon, if it is not meant to ofer crude, racist stereotypes to rationalize the ‘war on terror’?

    Finally, weren’t you at all struck by the fact that Anthony, making the case for ‘free speech,’ found himnself driven to resort to some pretty repulsive red-baiting in order to make it through his four minute spiel? Apparently he is the only one capable of thinking for himself; the rest of us are drones.

    * J-P editor Flemming Rose, who commissioned the cartoons: “People ar eno longer willing to pay taxes to help support someone called Ali who comes from a country with a different language and culture that’s 5,000 miles away.”

  • Brian Kelly I could not find a source for that quote when Googling it but did find this article by Flemming Rose which is interesting of itself

    Why I Published These Cartoons

    After reading that. It sounds as though you are seriously mischaracterising the debate, do you have the source for that quote so it can be read in context?

  • Harry Flashman

    There appears to be a wee bit of confusion on this issue from both Malachi and missfitz.

    Malachi

    First of all there is no “allegation” that three extra fake cartoons were inserted into the collection, this is a fact and is accepted by the Danish imam who hawked them around Egypt and the Middle East. One of the fakes was a photo of a bearded bloke from France in a headscarf with a “Miss Piggy” snout on holding his hands to his ears. He was taking part in a fun pig imitation competition at a local festival, someone – the imam has not admitted yet who it was – made this look like a Muslim at prayer which would be offensive if the photo was in any way related to Islam but it simply wasn’t! Another of the fakes showed a Muslim being screwed by a dog, again this was not in the original Danish collection. The BBC initially reported that these were among the originals and even showed them obliquely but they were then forced to apologise and issue a retraction. My point is that the imam either drew these himself or knows who did so surely this is a much worse offence than what the newspaper did?

    Missfitz

    Secondly as far as I understand the “she” referred to in the article in the blanket is Hirshi Ali who is certainly not one of the cartoonists. She is a Dutch MP and a Muslim from Somalia who has campaigned against the misogynist teachings of Islam, as a result she is in hiding under the threat of death. This is understandable given that she collaborated with Theo Van Gogh who made a short movie entitled “Submission” about the treatment of women in Islamist societies. Van Gogh was murdered in Rotterdam by a Muslim, he was eviscerated and almost beheaded in broad daylight and a five page letter rambling on about Islam was pinned to his chest with a dagger.

    Yes, you’ll all recall the huge outrage among the world’s Muslim populations about that won’t you? Remember thousands demonstrating in the street against this obscene assault on free speech with its horrible associations with Islam? No? Funny enough I didn’t see them either, but I saw British Muslims holding signs saying “Behead those who insult Islam” in London protesting about a dozen stupid cartoons published six months previously in a newspaper in Denmark. Funny what upsets some people isn’t it?

    McCann seems to be so enthralled to his anti-Americanism that he has now thrown himself behind these sectarian, anti-semitic, women hating, homophobes who have embraced the sort of throwback religious fanatacism that were it practised by Christians would probably see them thrown in jail in the west. Fine, I hope McCann and the rest of the deranged loonies on the far left enjoy their new Ribbentrop-Molotov pact for as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow they will regret their alliance with these nutters and will be awfully sorry they ever abandoned every principle and tenet that they once held dear simply because George W Bush was in the White House.

    Brenda

    One last thing, can you help me out here coz I’m sick of asking? How the frikkin’ hell is this an issue of racism? How? It’s about a religion that is practiced by people of every race in every continent under the sun just the same as Catholicism or Protestantism, so how in tarnation can you describe criticism of this particular religious belief as racism? I just don’t get it.

  • Harry Flashman

    Brian Kelly

    In what alternative universe is Al-Jazeera regarded as “the only news organisation doing a creditable job reporting the war in Iraq objectively”? I appreciate that someone who slavishly followed Pravda’s latest reports of the magnificent grain harvests in Ukraine or the Pyongyang Observer’s marvellous piece on Kim Jung Il’s wit and repartee might think that Al-Jazeera is a beacon of journalistic integrity but normal rational people recognise it as the Arab world’s Fox News without the cute blonde anchor women!

    And as for Hollywood supporting Bush, Jesus man you need to get out more, did you miss the Oscars?

    However leaving the above aside I ask you to contemplate the current Ribbentrop-Molotov pact between fundamentalist Islam and the far left. Is this really where the left is headed? In three years Bush will be gone but what will remain of the integrity of the left? Just as the newly liberated people of central and eastern Europe despised the lickspittle leftists in the west who made excuses for and turned a blind eye to the horrors of the gulag so the Muslim peoples of the world will loathe those who live in comfort and freedom but who use that liberty to condemn to slavery people who just want the same thing for their own daughters that we take for granted.

    I hope you can live with yourself when that day comes.

  • Busty Brenda

    Harry,

    ‘How the freakin hell is this issue racism?’

    Harry I refer you to Brian’s post,

    ‘in a society where Muslums are almost completely ghettoised and completely trapped at the very bottom’.

    If this is not a race issue why are Muslums trapped at the bottom of society? Would a white Muslum convert be trapped at the very bottom?

    I hope this answers your question, because I have refered others to newspaper articles, but was told they didn’t matter that it was only a religion – fact.No Not so black and white. Please read the letters page on the blanket to see what Brian was refering to when he said others (crackpots will fill their boots)

    Can you, harry answer brians question,

    ‘can you explain the message in the cartoon if it is not meant to offer crude RACIST sterotypes to rationalise the war on terror?’

    On another point, I just listened to the interview on sunday sequence between Brian and Anthony, and it was not Mackers best ever interview. Free speech does not give Mackers the right to shout louder than Brian to be heard.He took up most of the interview.

    Perhaps mackers would like to enlighten us as to who the two people were who asked him to publish in the first place and why he was hostile to the idea when it was first presented to him. Or is he now saying its someone elses fault he published? Lame or what?

    In all probability Brian is right, There will be more defections. How in all conscience can Davy Carlin stay? Mick Hall has already registered his protest.

  • brian kelly

    harry:

    funny that before the run-up to the iraq war,al-jazeera was hailed by some in the us state department as a fresh break from the heavily-censored arab state television stations. it is only when they refused to bow down to the lies about wmd that they were written off as beng in the hock of fundamentalists, the ‘fox news of the region,’ etc. their courageous, balanced reporting on the war is heads above the embeds and ‘reports from the green zone’ that we get from bbc and the us corporate media. that is why they were targeted and bombed by us forces. for anyone who doubts that they are heads above anything in the west, see ‘control room’ if you haven’t already.

    bombast and hyperbole aside…well, there’s not much left to your post, frankly. it is a matter of fact that the bush white house has invited in prominent hollywood producers to help plot their propaganda strategy. in general, the industry has been a faithful collaborator in us overseas adventurism for many, many years. this does not mean that there are not actors and others of integrity who will stand up against the obscenity in washington. more power to them.

    reader:

    forstarters see justin raimondo’s ‘rotten in denmark;’ several articles on the background at http://www.wsws.org; soumaya ghannoushi on ‘islamohpbia acting like free speech’ on al-jazzera.net; wikipedia entry on history of jyllands-posten; lila raijiva on ‘cartoon-krieg’; haroon siddiqui on ‘cartoon furor’ in toronto star; ‘rotten judgment’ in salon.com; lots of stuff at lenin’s tomb blog. there is, in addition, lots of material about the signatories to the ‘manifesto’ which the blanket published, which reveals some very interesting paradoxes–support for ‘islamists’ in afghanistan, opposition in palestine, etc.

    my last all.

  • before you go, brian kelly, i am looking for the source for the quote you cited * J-P editor Flemming Rose, who commissioned the cartoons: “People ar eno longer willing to pay taxes to help support someone called Ali who comes from a country with a different language and culture that’s 5,000 miles away.”

    the above references tell me nothing about where that quote came from, i would like the original source for the quote in context if you don’t mind, and not a link to the world socialist web site home page, as far as i could see none of those articles have the quote or reference to the original source in them, thanking you

    (i mean i don’t want the quote cited in isolation, if you have the full interview where it came from for the full context)

  • mickhall

    What we heard on the radio is sadly an all to common sport amongst us Leftists, i e that of tearing the life out of each other. [I include Anthony McIntrye, Brian Kelly and Eamonn McCann as being firmly of the left] Sure the media plays its crafty role and must be licking its lips with joy when two leftists, both of whom oppose the Iraqi occupation agree to go on the radio to bite great chunks out of each other. Perhaps Mr McIntrye should maybe not be debating with Brian Kelly on the radio, but with someone who interprets the cartoons in the manner Mr Kelly claims they were intended to be seen when first published in Jyllands-Posten and rejoices in there publication for that reason. Equally Brian’s main audience should be those who may become misguided by the cartoons.

    I am not someone who lives in a world of certainties as with age has come a certain flexibility, but what I am absolutely certain of is Anthony McIntyre is not a racist nor a b i g o t and Brian Kelly and Eamonn McCann are no more in an alliance with islamic fundamentalists than the Pope in Rome. What the publication of these cartoons in Ireland [and elsewhere in Europe] have shown is the level of ignorance about how the overwhelming majority of the worlds one billion plus Muslims go about their daily lives and view their religion. I find this ignorance shocking and it needs to be addressed, if publishing the cartoons help provoke such a debate then all will not be lost.

    Far from being b i g o t s who oppress their women folk or pliable ignoramuses in the thrall of wicked Imam’s, most Muslims view there religion in much the same way as the majority of Christians do. It is something they value that they were born into, they do not think a great deal about it accept in times of personal or political stress and in the main only celebrate it at times of family celebration like weddings, coming of age festivities and funerals. If one was to stand outside an average Mosque, in an average town, in an average country in which the main faith is Islam. One would we see those who answer the call to pray would be on a par with the types who attend most church services in Ireland. Apart for Friday prayers few people answer the daily call to prays at the Mosque due to their daily life intervening. Work, a day at the beach or park with the family etc, as with Christians often takes precedence.

    The ranting of reactionary fundamentalist imams no more represent the average muslim than the worst reactionaries or sectarians in the north represented the people of NI/the north of ireland during the dark days of the ‘troubles’.. Brian Kelly is absolutely right about one thing though, if we look to the countries where islamic fundamentalists have gained political influence, we often find that leaky vessel called US foreign policy has been at work. The Talaban came to power due to the US support for islamic fundamentalists who fought the Russians and the US war and occupation of Iraq has brought a similar bunch to the for in parts of Iraq. Do I really have to pompously remind people the overwhelming majority of muslims are our fellow human beings, their thoughts, hope’s and dream’s for the future are much like our own and in truth just like our own revolve around their families and the communities in which they live.

    Regards to all.

  • Jacko 92

    mick
    Just as a matter of interest. How many Islamic countries have you ever visited?

    Because, sorry mate, but this is just so much tripe: “most Muslims view there religion in much the same way as the majority of Christians do. It is something they value that they were born into, they do not think a great deal about it accept in times of personal or political stress and in the main only celebrate it at times of family celebration like weddings, coming of age festivities and funerals.”

    In even the most relaxed Islamic countries I have worked in, virtually every Muslim stops whatever it is he/she is doing and prays to Allah 5 times a day.

    I say this without making any comment, one way or the other, on whether it is a good thing or not for Muslims to be very devout.
    But the simple fact is that the vast majority of Muslims certainly do not treat their religion in the casual manner of most Christians.

    “If one was to stand outside an average Mosque, in an average town, in an average country in which the main faith is Islam. One would we see those who answer the call to pray would be on a par with the types who attend most church services in Ireland.”

    Mick, you speak of ignorance of Muslims and their religion amongst fellow contributors here, but the above paragraph is as far from reality as it is possible to get.
    You really have not been in a Muslim country or you simply would not believe the above to be true.

  • TAFKABO

    What is really galling to me is that McCann and Co wrote a letter to the Daily Ireland, the same paper that regularly refers to the actions of the Shankill butchers and other loyalist atrocities and draws inference that every unionist is somehow connected or complicit.

  • mickhall

    jacko

    I have spent time in a number of countries in which the main faith is islam from Morocco in the west across to Turkey in the east and a number of the countries in between, plus India where there are approx 100 million muslims and malaysia. What you are describing is true of Saudi and some of the countries within that region, but these nations have only a tiny minority of the numbers of people who make up the Islamic faith [bar Iran]For example it is certainly not true of Turkey which today is probably one, if not the most important Islamic country for Europe. Even under the current AK government there you would be hard pushed to hold down a job if you demanded the right to pop off to the mosque to pray even three times out of the five times a day. In the east and central Anatolia you can still find imams who have a hold over their villages, although they are usually in the pay of tribal leaders, especially in the Kurdish areas. Although admittedly in some areas women are not getting the rights they deserve. But such disgraceful treatment of women is far from being unique to islam now is it?

    What are you saying, the majority of muslims are not on a par with their christian counterparts but have horns and all are potential assassins. In the countryside and the mountains of many of these countries islam has much the same hold as Roman Catholicism had up until the mid 20th century in rural Ireland and later still in a small number of communities. Even in theocratic Iran there is a great deal of pretense expressed about religious practices amongst sections of Iranian society.

    Does this make me an expert on any one of these countries, of course not, but the more I have travelled the more I find people are much the same, no matter what religion or race they belong to or what color they are. I once heard a wise old loyalist say “what happened in NI did not happen because one night someone sprinkled looney dust over the provence when we were all asleep; and when we all woke up next day we started to kill each other. There were political reasons for what happened”. Which is something as far as muslims are concerned you seem unwilling to face up to.

    I wish you well.

  • Rory

    The arguments of Malachi O’Doherty are ever so convincing and indeed would be completely so if the issue were only about the publication of cartoons, of censorship, of the right to free speech and ideed on these matters I’m quite sure that all contributors to this thread (if not indeed to this site) are in general agreement.

    The credentials of those who opposed the publication of the cartoons are much too strong to now be called to task by those who disagree with them on this issue and really those who suggest that they have now abandoned their support for free speech and against censorship are firing pretty cheap shots.

    As I said, if the issue were solely about censorship, then Malachi O’Doherty’s arguments win out. But it’s not just about censorship is it? It’s the age old trick of “divide and conquer” that the liberal left are always such dupes for (especially when espousal of the real values become embarrassing). THe cartoons were published initially and the crude opposition to them slowly built up and then massively publicised precisely in order that those nice liberal lefties who had to oppose the war in Iraq and now might be obliged to find the energy to oppose action against Iran (or Syria or wherever’s next after that) might find a reason in their horror at the excesses of Islam to avoid too much further energy for opposition and begin to look at the attractiveness of the US led programme for the “democatisation” of Islam.

    I am convinced that the initial publication of the cartoons and the crude bursts of protest were all part of a well orchestrated black propaganda campaign and The Blanket at best fell into the trap of disseminating that propaganda and at worst are I suppose guilty of the most unbelievable naivetee.

  • Jacko 92

    Mick

    “… if you demanded the right to pop off to the mosque to pray even three times out of the five times a day”.
    If you had any experience of Muslim countries you would know that they wash and then pray for a few minutes where they are.

    “What are you saying, the majority of muslims are not on a par with their christian counterparts but have horns and all are potential assassins.”

    Now you know I am not saying that. Just challenging your nonsense about Muslims, in general, being no more devout than Christians.

    Either you haven’t travelled where you say, or you aren’t being honest about what you saw there – simple as that.
    You’re on a loser on this one Mick, time to stop digging.

    Have a look at “Women at war with the Mullahs” in the Sunday Times, News Review.
    That is, if you don’t believe that you know more about Islam than actual Muslims or that everyone speaking out is somehow being manipulated by “the West”.

  • brian kelly

    tafkabo
    di is the only paper thus far to have _printed_ the letter. you will have to inquire with your paper of choice as to why they have not. we will glady resupply.

    reader
    this quote from flemming rose appears in a number of accounts (including the toronto star piece i cited), and is consistent with a number of other comments of his on the ‘problem’ of integration, etc. to me it seems obvious, why in the aftermath of the controversy, he might want to present himself as the wronged, conscientious editor just out to do his job. but i sense that you have an agenda that this will not satisfy.

  • Rory

    PS

    In support of my comments I would refer readers to “Letter from Iran” in the latest issue of Private Eye (no.1154, 17 March, 2006).

    Using the (extremely limited) hostile reaction of Muslims to the publications of the cartoons in order to further attack Islam aids only the opportunistic fanatics within that religion (and surely to God we have had enough experience of opportunistic religious zealots within Irish Christian culture, not to mention the USA) and sets back the advance of the great majority of progressive enlightened Muslims. Of course it also aids imperialism, but maybe that’s a side issue for some.

  • mickhall

    In support of my comments I would refer readers to “Letter from Iran” in the latest issue of Private Eye (no.1154, 17 March, 2006).

    Using the (extremely limited) hostile reaction of Muslims to the publications of the cartoons in order to further attack Islam aids only the opportunistic fanatics within that religion (and surely to God we have had enough experience of opportunistic religious zealots within Irish Christian culture, not to mention the USA) and sets back the advance of the great majority of progressive enlightened Muslims. Of course it also aids imperialism, but maybe that’s a side issue for some.

    posted by Rory

    Rory,
    Thanks for posting this, it just about sums the whole thing up for me. A friend after reading this thread sent me this poem, I felt is was well worth a read.

    Mick

    Human Family by Maya Angleou

    I note the obvious differences
    in the human family.
    Some of us are serious,
    some thrive on comedy.

    Some declare their lives are lived
    as true profundity,
    and others claim they really live
    the real reality.

    The variety of our skin tones
    can confuse, bemuse, delight,
    brown and pink and beige and purple,
    tan and blue and white.

    I’ve sailed upon the seven seas
    and stopped in every land,
    I’ve seen the wonders of the world
    not yet one common man.

    I know ten thousand women
    called Jane and Mary Jane,
    but I’ve not seen any two
    who really were the same.

    Mirror twins are different
    although their features jibe,
    and lovers think quite different thoughts
    while lying side by side.

    We love and lose in China,
    we weep on England’s moors,
    and laugh and moan in Guinea,
    and thrive on Spanish shores.

    We seek success in Finland,
    are born and die in Maine.
    In minor ways we differ,
    in major we’re the same.

    I note the obvious differences
    between each sort and type,
    but we are more alike, my friends,
    than we are unalike.

    We are more alike, my friends,
    than we are unalike.

    We are more alike, my friends,
    than we are unalike.

  • Mick Fealty

    All

    Can we stow the personal asides!?!

  • brian kelly, the flemming quote only appears in the toronto star’s reprint of an article that originally appeared in the nation, which carried the quote in isolation with no reference to where it came from. if you cannot produce the original source so that i can read the context of the quote for myself then please say so. my only agenda is to see what the man himself said in complete context, as on the face of it the quote can mean quite a number of things. was he saying that he felt that way, was he describing how some danes feel, was he claiming all danes feel that way, was he agreeing with them, was he disagreeing. if he was speaking as a journalist observing a trend in danish society, that is hardly damning, whereas if he was giving his own personal opinion, that would be different.

    my only agenda is to cut through spin & think for myself, and it is quite easily satisfied, provide me with the original source for the quote in context!

    otherwise all you are doing is giving me your opinion from an opinion piece (as were the other pieces you cited) that you agree with, which is not very enlightening.

    simple or should be?

  • Jacko 92

    Rory
    “Sorry, mister, I simply don’t respond to ill-mannered yobbery, so please don’t waste your breath”.

    You just did respond, Rory my old friend.
    Have you forgotten already?

    Recent-timescale-memory-loss – or Goldfish Syndrome as we in the trade call it – is a sure sign of severe paranoia.
    Please consider seriously the advice I have already given you – if forgotten check earlier posts.
    Paranoia is not to be messed with or taken lightly.
    I know about these things, I’m in the Alliance Party.

    brian kelly

    Actually, I think old Rory could be doing with a few happy pills at the minute.
    His point of reference is Private Eye, I see.
    Whatever next?

    Quoting Desperate Dan on native Americans or Dennis the Menace on child behavioural problems?
    He needs all the support we can give him at the moment.

    “but i sense that you have an agenda that this will not satisfy”.
    Suffering a bit from the old paranoia yourself Bri, I see.
    Comes from sitting too much at the feet of gurus, I hear.

  • Jacko 92

    mickhall

    Thankfully Mick you’ve given up on the old “I’ve been everywhere, man” nonsense.

    Excellent poem, by the way.
    I prefer that sentimental, gushing, hippy-dippy stuff, myself, to the real thing.
    So at least we’ve got something in common.

  • Jacko 92

    Mick Fealty

    You are quite right about the personals.
    Sorry if I have been at fault.
    I realise how easily these things can escalate.

    One minute, for example, it can be as simple as suicide bombers from one side – the next, it gets completely out of control as the other overeacts by publishing cartoons.

    So I’ll go to bed now in case anyone is tempted to reach for their pen.

    Good night, all.
    May your God(s) go with you.

  • Shore Road Resident

    I’m glad to see that Mick Hall, despite “registering his protest”, is continuing to write for The Blanket.
    MH really deserves a column in a proper newspaper (Daily Ireland doesn’t count, obviously).

  • Busty Brenda

    Since we have all agreed to disagree, can I now ask ‘what now for the blanket’. The left is fragmented in its support, with some very emminent leftist supporters distancing themselves from it. Republicanism has been fragmented in its support. Where will it be when the twelve weeks are finished? I wonder how will it affect the republican socialists, such as those from IRSP etc?

    Ironic if this was to be the reason for its demise or dimishing of it, when strong antagonism from with in the PRM couldn’t harm it.

    anyome any thoughts?

  • brian kelly

    brenda:

    can’t answer your question, except to say that i don’t think the blanket has ever lived up to its potential in terms of building a left in belfast anyway. bhat is part of a longer discussion, but my basic contention is that we need something more than a talk shop.

    i thought i’d post something relevant to the debate between mcintyre and myself earlier today though, and hope that he will clarify. in the course of the back-and-forth, he asserted that the muslim council of britain had specifically denied that there was a racist element to the cartoons. it now appears that mcintyre made it up on the spot, out of thin air.

    here is the only statement that i could find on the affair from their website:

    “These (Danish) newspapers have printed extremely offensive caricatures of the beloved Prophet of Islam and this case, worryingly, reflects the emergence of an increasingly xenophobic tone being adopted towards Muslims in parts of the Western media. Newspaper editors must exercise due care and restraint when dealing with issues like this.

    Muslims respect and love the Prophet as being dearer to them than their own families. We should not allow our valued freedoms in Europe to be abused by those deliberately seeking to provoke hatred and division between communities,” said Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain.

    At the same time, the MCB regards the violent threats made against Danish and EU citizens by some groups in the Muslim world as completely unacceptable and displaying an utter disregard of basic Islamic injunctions on how to resolve disagreements and differences.’

    i think both aspects of this statement are worth bearing in mind by those who want to distort the debate. 1) the publication and re-publication of the cartoons are indeed seen as part of a trend toward xenophobia, and 2) the vast majority of muslims across the world have expressed their anger and outrage by the same means any other ethnic/racial/religious group might. does this not add credence to my assertion early on that malachi’s reading of the cartoons amounted to an apologia for bigotry?

  • listening to the debate again, mcintyre said muslim action council —not muslim council of britain— perhaps he meant the muslim action committee? being a curious sort— this is what I found doing a quick google —using the search terms ‘muslim + action + 700 mosques’ which were the terms used in the seconds of the debate you refer to, had this as the 6th entry— i suppose you could email him for clarification, would it not be helpful to know what exactly he was referring to —the mac or the mcb —before you rush to judgement?

    have you found the original source/context for the flemming rose quote yet?

    Islam, Socialism, Racism, Islamaphobia and Civility

    Ismaeel-Haneef Hijazi

    Ismaeel-Haneef Hijazi is the Media Representative for MAC ( http://www.globalcivility.org )

    An Explanation of the aims and activities of the Muslim Action Committee (MAC)

    The reactions of many left wing commentators to the demonstration organized by the Muslim Action Committee (MAC) on the 18th February to the Danish Cartoons have reflected a lack of understanding of our aims and methodology, which in turn highlights their lack of understanding of Muslims and the Islamic religion. The themes are consistent, they believe we oppose working with non-Muslims, they don’t understand why we see this as an attack on our religion rather than primarily as racism. They don’t understand who we are or what we stand for. There is also an element of attempting to dismiss us and play down our significance in favour of other Muslim organizations that are active in the Stop the War Coalition and Respect party such as MAB (Muslim Association of Britain).

    Whilst Socialists understandably regard the recent crisis as an issue of European Muslims reacting against Racism and Islamaphobia (which is the Socialist lexicon means being racist against Muslims), the majority of Muslims worldwide see a different picture. It is noteworthy that Muslims all over the world turned out to protest their anger at these cartoons. Although Socialist writers try and split these protestors into those manipulated by right wing Islamic leaders intent on retaining control of the masses and the European Muslims who are an oppressed minority protesting against oppression, it is clear to Muslims that this is an expression of an idea central to the heart of our faith. The belief of a Muslim is that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) should be more beloved to him or her than his or her own life. Muslims have been under constant attack and demonisation as a religious community worldwide for some time now, however it took an insult against the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to trigger the global protests we have seen.

    Another point which seems to be lost on the Socialists is that Muslims are not a homogenous racial group and many of us are ethnically western European. I myself am a direct descendant of Edward III. If I and many others like me gave up our Islam tomorrow, we would not then be subject to any form of racism from those orchestrating these offences.

    Interestingly many Socialists are having issues about defending Muslims and have managed to find a neat way to justify their stance. They claim they are defending Muslims against the racism of the oppressor in this case, but on the other hand they would defend Salman Rushdie as he is an apostate from within the Muslim community and his poisonous book the Satanic Verses reflected his personal investigation of his religion. What is most problematic about the Socialist diagnosis of defending oppressed Muslims rights whilst simultaneously defending the right to attack their religion is that they have unwittingly placed themselves on the same page as Nick Griffin on this issue. Mr Griffin’s defence in court a few weeks ago and his party line is that he is not against Muslims but he is against Islam, which he describes as a monster.

    For the Muslim Action Committee and the 700 or so Mosques and Islamic organizations Nationwide which we represent on this issue, this is not primarily a racist or even political issue but an attack on our faith. If this was merely a racist attack then the cartoonists would have contented themselves with caricatures of Muslims in general, there would be no need for a direct attack on our Prophet (peace be upon him). There has been since the time of the inception of Islam and the coming of our Prophet (peace be upon him) opposition to his message and attacks on Islam and the Prophet (peace be upon him) for ideological reasons. It will be interesting for Socialists to note that much of the opposition to the Prophet (peace be upon him) in Mecca was due to the fact he said there was only one God which was perceived as an ideological threat to the pagan Meccans who feared they would lose trade because people came to worship the many different gods of Mecca and bring their own on pilgrimage.

    rest of the article here —http://www.socialistunitynetwork.co.uk/voices/islam01.htm

  • Harry Flashman

    There you are folks straight from the horse’s mouth as it were, this is an issue of religion not race.

    Clear enough for ya now?

    They ain’t protesting in Indonesia or Turkey or Nigeria or Saudi Arabia or Albania because their multitudious and varied races were insulted, no they were protesting because their prophet was insulted (and no, I have no need to capitalise the initial “P” or wish peace upon him as I am not an adherent to that religion, any more than I would expect a Muslim to refer to Christ as “the Messiah” or a republican to refer to the temporal head of the Church of England as “Her Britannic Majesty, Elizabeth the Second, by grace of God, Queen”)

  • abucs

    Rory,

    “I am convinced that the initial publication of the cartoons and the crude bursts of protest were all part of a well orchestrated black propaganda campaign ”

    Hard to argue it was one campaign as there was a space of 6 months after the publication in Denmark, before the violent outbursts (and killings)

    You’d have to show the Danish clerics that travelled to the middle east were heavily involved in that ‘black propaganda campaign’.

  • Jacko 92

    Watched first part of a series “Who’s afraid of Islam” on RTE1 last night.
    Excellent programme, if the rest lives up to the first, well worth tuning in for.

    A Muslim scholar talked of the diversity of race within Islam.
    Paraphrasing him, he said virtually from the begining (within the first 1 hundred years, he said) Islam had spread to include people from lots of ethnic backgrounds.
    Today, he reckons, no more than 15% of total Muslims are Arabic.
    Off the top of my head, other major ethnic groupings are Turkish, Persian, Indian, Malayian, African, Chinese (last one surprised me a little, but there you go).

  • abucs

    Yeah, there’s a Chinese muslim population on the western border close to Afghanistan, and northern india and pakistan. Indonesia has the most number of Muslims at well over 100 million.

  • Rory

    To: Mick Hall

    Thank you for your kind comments, Mick, I do try.
    The inter-nicene left sectarianism exhibited on this thread I find saddens me, maybe all the more so because as a young hothead I could be as left-sectarian as the best of them. Age, experience and meeting and talking with people like the late Peadar O’Donnell (of the Irsh Republican Congress) and the late Desmond Greaves, editor of The Irish Democrat and biographer of Connolly, helped me further dispel these tendencies and the terrible carnage wreaked on left solidarity by much egotistical bitter wrangling, often more psychological than political, aided the process.

    I enjoyed the poem. Angelou has fallen out of fashion with the literati of late and I find many who never read her in the first place (but whom I suspect would have been full of praise when her star was in the ascendancy) now disparage her work.

    Another poem that often springs to mind that celebrates difference and divergence is Gerald Manley Hopkins’s “Pied Beauty”, but since Hopkins was an Anglican convert to Catholicism and a Jesuit priest I suspect this may rule out even his poetry for appreciation by many on here.

  • abucs

    i should add that the western border chinese muslim population is aggressively pursuing independence as they are in southern thailand and southern philippines and north western india.

    Also the human rights record of Indonesia towards the Christian west papuan, spice islands and east timor is not good to put it diplomatically.

    Of course East Timor gained independence from Indonesia a few years ago after the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Christian East Timorese. The Indonesian military and police / security will never be brought to account for this. The plantation of the Spice Islands and West Papua by Muslim Javanese continues as a government sponsored policy.

  • Jacko 92

    “… but since Hopkins was an Anglican convert to Catholicism and a Jesuit priest I suspect this may rule out even his poetry for appreciation by many on here.

    Yeah Rory, comfort yourself with that thought.
    Those who disagree with you can only be bigots.

  • Jacko 92

    I see The Blanket has already begun to suffer a backlash from its decision to take a stand on freedom of expression – only 14 or so articles this week.

    Looks like its a case of “Derry Popular Front – missing you already”.

  • DK

    Rory said: “I am convinced that the initial publication of the cartoons and the crude bursts of protest were all part of a well orchestrated black propaganda campaign”.

    Except that the publication of the cartoons was to raise debate about the inability to get illustrators for a children’s book about Muhammad.

    And that the furore was raised months after they were published.

    And that the timing of the protests was just when Iran was referred to the UN Security council for their nuclear programme. One of this years rotating presidents is…. well, you guess which previously low-profile scandinavian country Iran might want persuaded to act in a non-controversial manner against any Moslem country.

  • Paul

    Abucs, it’s worth noting that the guy convicted of the Bali bomb said he did it as a reprisal for Australia’s role in intervening to stop the massacre of Christians in East Timor (perpetrated by muslim militias). For years the far left were urging western intervention in East Timor, rightly so. How does that play with their new friends I wonder.
    I note from this morning’s papers that some poor man in Afghanistan may face the death penalty – for converting to Christianity from Islam. How the left can allign themselves with this type of bullshit is beyond me.

  • Harry Flashman

    As anyone who has read my comments will know by now I’m no fan of militant Islam but I’m not sure that it’s fair to blame the East Timor or West Papua scenes on Islam. These are very much territorial issues for Indonesia. Under Sukharno and later Suharto militant Islam was kept very much in check by the Indonesian army – just ask the people of Acheh but the integrity of the archipelago was sacrosanct, that was what lay behind the siezure of East Timor, the fight to take over Papua after the Dutch left and indeed the war with Malaysia in the 1960’s in Kalimantan (Borneo to the Brits). Indonesia laid claim to all the surrounding areas be they in New Guinea, Malaysia or indeed parts of the Philipines but this was by far more to do with aggressive nationalism than Islam. One of the main architects of the invasion of East Timor was himself a Catholic from Java.

    Whilst there is no question that Islam is the dominant religion in Indonesia – more like 200 million abucs – the appeal of fundamentalism is limited, though growing.

  • Felix Quigley

    This debate tells a lot about the treacherous nature of the Irish neo-left.

    I think I now understand the approach of O’Doherty and many others here is. The method is to take this issue of the Cartoons, make it into an issue of Free Speech, a single issue, and work from there.

    That seemed to be the content of O’Doherty’s piece. But the issue of Islamofascism and its danger especially to the broad Muslim masses is broader. And running underneath it all is that the Left (neo-left) has been in an alliance for decades now in their hatred of Israel. Kelly shows my point on this is valid here. Read his post again on suicide bombers to see this.

    I first began to be alerted to the nature of the political neoleft when I started to question their position towards what has become known as Palestinianism. This is the movement which has been given a huge lift-up by Nazi Kurt Waldheim when he became secretary-general of the UN. McIntyre has been the leading figure in the spreading of hatred against the Jewish state of Israel and in support of this essentially anti-Semitic Palestine terror movement. This is why I see his present belated move on the Islamofascist cartoon issue a bit of a side show.

    To understand the politics of McIntyre you have to look at the politics of this neo-left layer in Ireland and in Europe and how their main activity over many years has been to spread this intense hatred of Israel.

    To call the Jews of Israel Nazis after what they have suffered at the hands of the Nazis is not a casual statement but a deep and carefully thought out statement of the most evil intent. McIntyre and Kelly and many others here have done just that!

    This neo-left has been connected with the Great Myths of Our Time. Many of these are connected with spreading lies against the Jews of Israel, but also in recent years against the people of Serbia and the Serbian leadership.

    Some of these lies are:

    The Deir Yassin lie
    The Jenin “massacre” lie
    The Muhammad el Dura France 2 lie
    The Srebrenica Massacre lie

    McIntyre and the pages of The Blanket have been closely connected with the spreading of all these lies.

    There must be added to those also many other lies connected with the NATO dismemberment of Yugoslavia

    The fake video footage of the ITN team led by Ms Penny Marshall which lied saying that the Serbs were running a concentration camp.

    Another “massacre”, the Massacre of Racak, which has proved to be a fake as well, and which was used as pretext for the US to bomb Yugoslavia.

    Along with those there is the biggest lie of all: This is that the Bosnian Muslims were “different” and were not connected with Islamofascism and that they were oppressed by the Serbs. The opposite was the case in Bosnia and in Kosova. We live in the era of the Media Big Lie.

    All of the above are lies. In most, if not all of these lies, and more, McIntyre is implicated up to his eyeballs. I am not aware of O’Doherty who has pretensions to be a journalist having told the truth about any of those lies.
    These are the people who Fealty, and perhaps even more his adjutants on SluggerOtoole, gravitate towards. He gives full blast of publicity to McIntyre and continues to ignore everything I write.

    The cement which holds these reactionary neo-lefts together is without a doubt their hatred of Israel. This is no ordinary hatred and certainly not a rightful criticism. It is out of order and out of perspective. As one Irish blogger said “I really, really hate Israel”.
    So where does that leave us. Well it means that as far as being a revolutionary progressive force the neo-left has no mission. It will be necessary to build a new leadership which will stand on truth and on principle.

    On all of the great and historical lies which I have mentioned above I predict with confidence:
    Anthony McIntyre and his Blanket website will remain at the centre of the promotion of said lies.

    I predict furthermore that his differences with fellow Israel haters Brian Kelly and Eamon McCann (among many others) is purely episodic. Their joint hatred of Israel and love for the Jew haters of the whole Palestinian and Arab movement is stronger and they will come together on that even if on nothing else. That is the cement which unites the neo-left.

    PS I use the term “neoleft” to show that these elements have abandoned the principles on which the early Labour Movement was founded. Because of this degeneration the terms of Left and Right do not mean very much any more.

  • abucs

    Agreed Paul. That is a disturbing admission. I urge anyone interested in this to read the Koran and make up their own mind up on what sort of ‘religion’ Islam is.

    I have no doubt there are millions of wonderful Muslim people, who are a joy to know and be with.

    But Mohammad grew up in a Jewish / Christian village and that is where the basis of his religion came from.

    He was also a military general who sent people to kill and be killed.

    It is no co-incidence that Islam is in a state of war in most areas of the globe where they come across non believers.

    The Koran continually splits the world into believers and non believers. It says things like respect Moslem women but those non muslim women that you capture, are ordained for you. It says keep your truce with Christians, but when the truce’s term ends, slay them where-ever you find them. And remember, this is not Mohammad speaking, not his disciples, not his disciples followers. This is God himself speaking.

    Most of the Koran is boring and repetitive and heavily filled with Christian and Jewish stories.

    It is a world away though from Jesus dying on the cross praying for his executioners.

    Many in the left are irreligious and since they think all religion is crap, they wrongfully assume all religions are the same. Like saying all rap or classical music is the same.

    Islam has not gone through a modern critique. In fact the Koran says anyone who insults Islam should be destroyed. No wonder there is not a large number of critics of Islam. And no wonder people in Denmark were reluctant to be part of a childrens book on Mohammad.

    Islam is dangerous IMHO.

  • DK

    Felix,

    Yes, these “leftists” hate Israel and this is also wrapped up in their hatred of USA, which makes them foolishly see only one side of the arguement and fall into supporting anyone vs. the USA/Israel, no matter how odious.

    But you have also fallen into the same trap. You see Israel as innocent since the leftists hate them. Israel has done a lot of very dubious things that would have been major concerns for regional stability, even if Israel were just another Mulslim country. Serbia is as bad – what is the lie of Srebrencia, a well documented event that the UN got a lot of criticism for?

    It’s like Northern Ireland. Both sides have their faults.

  • DK

    Some bits of the Koran are nice too “educate your girls as your boys” is in it somewhere (from memory), as is “to you be your religion, to me be mine” (also from memory – it’s the sura called “religion”).

    I think that a lot of the trouble comes from the later interpretations writings which are also treated as the word of God, and not to be questioned, sort of like the letters of St Paul which can be dodgy in places. (this bit might be called the Hadith?)

  • abucs

    Fair enough DK. For peace in many parts of the world. (And increasingly Europe), these problems need to be delt with authoratively from within Islam.

  • Felix Quigley

    I am uneasy with attacks on religion in general. But as Harry has said the 3 added on cartoons (added on by the Imans from Denmark as they followed THEIR particular star) shows that this is Islamofascism in action. So far on the issue of Free Speech I am on McIntyre’s side.

    The second point is that Islamofascism is a REAL danger as 9-11, Madrid and London showed.

    But I include in this point also that it is a huge danger to the poor and oppressed Muslim masses, who really will have to break from Islam if they are to be any way free, economically or spiritually. Kelly and Hall’s line seeks to actually tighten the chains. I am sure that is the logic of their statements.

    The third point is that it is not just a choice between Islamofascism and NATO. Hall has correctly pointed out that NATO and the Islamofascists collaborated in Afhanistan.

    I add also in Bosnia, in Kosovo, and more lately in Iraq insofar as when the US leaves (soon I do think despite todays Rumsfield statement) they will leave behind … a pro-Islamist controlled by Iran southern state in Iraq. (At least the Kurds who I support will be free of that lot…hopefully)

    Then you remember, was it called Irangate, where Reagan was exposed as supplying the Mullahs against Saddam, JUST AFTER THE EXPERIENCE OF THOSE VERY SAME MULLAHS HOLDING THE HOSTAGES. Amazing the role of the US and NATO.

    I like what you say about Islam above Abucs. But DK you remind me of the prosecutors of the Hague, Del Ponte and that lot.

    You are very good at making allegations but you have no evidence and that by the way is why NATO DID murder Milosevic.

    An example of your method and allegatio0ns DK is when you write above:

    “You see Israel as innocent since the leftists hate them. Israel has done a lot of very dubious things that would have been major concerns for regional stability, even if Israel were just another Mulslim country. Serbia is as bad – what is the lie of Srebrencia, a well documented event that the UN got a lot of criticism for? ”

    Note the allegations above without ANY evidence.

    What dubious things has Israel done? You see you do not state them, you just state it as a truth which you imply everybody knows.

    Similarly on the supposed Srebrenica “massacre” you describe it as a well documented event.

    Well you see you may describe it so but that does not make it so!

    You in fact have swallowed the big lie of the Media about the Serbs and about Milosevic.

    We have a serious enemy in Islamofascism, we have a serious enemy in NATO, and we also have a very serious enemy in the Media.

    Notice how many dispute the lies I describe above.

    In fact this debate on Slugger is an example of that lie in action.

    The reality is that Islamofascist Iran (Kelly they rule there you know) have threatened to wipe Israel off the map, or move the Jews of Israel to Europe, and then that land will be Jew free, ie Islamist.

    And that is the policy of Hamas (AND FATAH). And McIntyre is a supporter of Hamas…

    But sorry Mick, we are talking just about Cartoons here. Sorry for intervening with news from the Real World!

    DK look to my site http://www.isill.blogspot.com where you will see some evidence against the allegations you make.

  • Busty Brenda

    Harry Flashman, who is the horse with the mouth? Malachi or Anthony, who. and because they say its not race its not race.

    what are you a drone?

    Brian Kelly, what time is the meeting on thursday nite at queens froggat centre? is it open to the general public.

  • DK

    Felix,

    I did look at your site, but it seems that a world where Israel can do no wrong does not meet the established reality. If you really want examples of bad things that Israel has done, then try google: even Israelis protest against their government. Note that I am a supporter of Israel’s right to exist.

    As for Srebrenica: try the wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre in which you will note that even the Bosnian Serb side has officially admitted the number of killed Muslims and expressed regrets for the massacre in 2004.

    Yes we have a serious enemy in “Islamofascism”. But to deny massacres and paint Israel as perfect does no-one any favours and plays into the hands of the enemy. Or is that your intention?

  • TAFKABO

    Agreed Paul. That is a disturbing admission. I urge anyone interested in this to read the Koran and make up their own mind up on what sort of ‘religion’ Islam is.

    What sort of an impression of Christianity would one get from reading the bible?
    Rapes, incest, bloody murder, torture, sectarian hate, genocide……..

    Need I go on?

    If I want to judge Islam in general, I’ll do it by considering my own personal experience of the many many moslems I come into contact with every day, everyone of whom is decent and honest, kind and considerate to their neighbours.

    I’m a big supporter of the right, indeed the necessity of confronting fundamentalism, whether it be right wing Christian fundies in the MAerican bible belt, or Islamic fundamentalist from North Africa and beyond.

    But to suggest that one would get a proper perspective of Islam from simply reading the Koran is just not feasible.

  • Felix Quigley

    DK

    You see, you fall into the trap again.

    Take Srebrenica, you do not give any evidence to prove the Serbs carried out a massacre at Srebrenica.

    What you do is refer me to an encyclopedia.

    And the encyclopedia is made up of lies and prejudices. After all it is written by people and these people may or may not be telling the truth.

    They may be biased and be liars or they may be relying on the evidence of “eye-witnesses” etc who may be biased.

    You see you have produced NO evidence.

    And that in fact is how the Media works.

    If you had examined to take just one example the case of the Birmingham Six you would find the same thing.

    The Media is one of the biggest problems we have.

    On Israel when you use a search engine like google you will again not find evidence. You will find assertions. And if there is evidence it is up to YOU to bring it forward…you made the attacking allegation against Israel.

    Once again the Srebrenica massacre story is a NATO, Media, and Islamist (The Bosnian Muslim Government was Islamofascist and was led by an ex Nazi and Islamofascist) lie. My site http://www.isill.blogspot.com will soon place the evidence for this.

  • abucs

    Yes Tafkabo please go on.

    The old testament is a common heritage for Jews, Christians and Mosloms.

    Show me where in the NT Christ or christians advocate “Rapes, incest, bloody murder, torture, sectarian hate, genocide”

    You can judge religion how you like, but to deny the central primacy of the Koran for muslims, where unlike Christianity the Koran is the literal word of God, i mean word for word, the word of God and Muhammad’s gift to the world is to show you don’t understand Islam.

    I was brought up living next door to muslims. i know they are good people. Even when their daughter was involved in an arranged marriage and didn’t mind that her husband had been married before, because it didn’t count because she was only British. I still know they are good people. But i also know how the Koran affects this moderate families thinking. There are many more stories but that would be unfair to a basically good family to repeat them.

    But i have also been to southern Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, China, Northern India, West Africa, Israel, Palestine, Syria, Jordon and many other places besides. I also have made my mind up including all my experiences. And as i have said, there are millions of good moslem people and many have helped me out on my journies.

    But the Koran has precedence, and it has problems involving violence and unbelievers that other religions i have come across don’t.
    Anyway that’s it for me tonight. I am still in Asia now and it is quite late.

  • John O’Farrell

    Felix Quigley asserts that “Once again the Srebrenica massacre story is a NATO, Media, and Islamist (The Bosnian Muslim Government was Islamofascist and was led by an ex Nazi and Islamofascist) lie. My site http://www.isill.blogspot.com will soon place the evidence for this.”

    Well you had better have lots of it, son. I seriously worry about a vocal supporter of Israel denying an act of genocide. Or maybe those bodies photgraphed by my friend Gilles Peress were placed there by the Bosnians themselves. http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/99-2NRsummer99/Shattuck.html
    Maybe they jumped into those Srebrenica ditches just to give Ratko Mladic a bad name, because Muslims are all lemmings, aren’t they?

    Just like Shabra and Shatila? Or was that a product of the imagination of the Israeli judicial commission that nailed Ariel Sharon for the filthy deed.

    This thread has drastically moved on from the’offense’ of the cartoons. There is a man writing comments to this website and he is spreading the vilest lies to suit an agenda that seems partly motivated by paranoia of the west and a nasty attitude towards one-fifth of the planet’s population.

    Look, read and heed. There is a real problem with Islamophobia here, and it’s not coming from cartoons or those who publish them in the name of free expression or open debate.

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    Felix,

    I’m interested in giving people as broad a page to write on as I possibly can within the law. The politics of your output is not why I don’t link to your blog, it’s the reliability of that output.

    I also think that the guys at the Blanket would dispute the idea that I somehow favour them with attention. They don’t feature here that often.

    Truth is I try to follow stories not individuals or organisations. If I think someone has a good thought provoking line, I’ll link to whether it is pro or anti whatever it is you’re having yourself.

    Your consistent pro-Israeli line is a good and positive thing in and of itself. You have ensured a diversity on Slugger at times when some factions on here had perhaps been over energetic in asserting their own view as an orthodox consensus.

    You also have something of a track record in terms of making ill founded ad hominem attacks on other individuals. If you continue in that vein, I would have no choice but to ban you from Slugger altogether.

    Now back to the topic in hand!

  • brian kelly

    apologies for the length of the following, but there is a lot to respond to.
    felix quigley:

    you wrote above
    ‘To call the Jews of Israel Nazis after what they have suffered at the hands of the Nazis is not a casual statement but a deep and carefully thought out statement of the most evil intent. McIntyre and Kelly and many others here have done just that!’

    this is the second time in the past several days that you have asserted that i have called ‘the jews of israel’ nazis. this is a lie. i have asked mick to remove these assertions, and will call on you to put up or shut up. trawl the blanket, the entire internet, and provide us with the cite. or desist.

    reader:
    in future you will have to do your own legwork, but the original source for the rose quote is ‘Cartoon ruckus heightens Danes’ identity crisis,’ by Dan Bilefsky, International Herald Tribune: Monday 13 February 2006. you can read the piece and judge for yourself whether this is a benign statement. it is not, in my opinion.

    a january 1 article in the same paper (well worth reading for its depiction of tensions between the danish host and muslim immigrant community, the context for the cartoon contoversy) reports that muslims feel that ‘the cartoons reflect an intensifying anti-immigrant climate that is stigmatizing minorities and radicalizing young Muslims.’ harry can call this racism or anti-muslim prejudice or whatever else he wants–as i say, i’m not concerned about the semantics, but it fits with what i’ve asserted throughout, that this provocation came in the context of a growing, general vilification of muslims in denmark, led by the right-wing parties and by the j-p under rose.

    another article by bilefsky on 14 february describes rose’s guardianship of the j-p’s culture section thus:

    ‘When he became cultural editor, Rose immediately put his stamp on the section, eschewing soft stories on film, theater and museums in favor of harder-edged pieces, often dealing with Islamic themes. These ranged from stories on the indictment of nude models in Iranian art classes as pornographers to interviews with feminists who were protesting the oppression of women in Islam.

    “Rose used the section to wage ideological campaigns,” Juhl said. “It was ‘Islam this’ and ‘Islam that,’ or attacks against the left.”

    When the son of Che Guevara proposed exhibiting his father’s photography in Denmark, colleagues said, Rose refused to cover the event because of Guevara’s Marxism…. Colleagues say he also waged a campaign to remove a statue of Lenin from a workers’ museum in Copenhagen, believing it had no place in liberal Denmark.

    Above all, some colleagues said, Rose has been obsessed with the growing conflict between Islam and the West.’

    it is this obsession, no doubt, that led rose to publish a puff piece on bush admin neo-con daniel pipes who, among other things, initiated campus watch–basically a mccarthyist website dedicated to ‘exposing’ american academics with pro-palestinian sympathies. nice bedfellows these defenders of ‘free speech’ surround themselves with.

    moreover, rose’s championing of free speech and the harmlessness of satire apparently does have limits. here:

    ‘Denmark risked becoming embroiled in a new culture clash – this time with the world’s Jewish community – after the Danish editor behind the Muhammad caricatures said he was willing to publish cartoons about the Holocaust.

    “My newspaper is trying to establish a contact with the Iranian newspaper and we would run the cartoons the same day as they publish them,” Flemming Rose, cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, told CNN on Wednesday.

    But his comments were quickly followed by a denial from the newspaper that it had any intention of publishing satires of the Jewish genocide.

    Rose, a former correspondent who has worked in Iran, said in an interview in December that he would not publish caricatures of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel strangling a Palestinian baby since such an image could be construed as racist.’

    now, for the record: i would strongly oppose any attempt to publish cartoons making light of the jewish holocaust, and would have resigned from the blanket if its co-editors had chosen to do so. i only include this to point out the double-standards that seem to be at work.

  • brian kelly

    last point, i promise:

    i accept that i was wrong in asserting that mcintyre came up with the muslim action committee ‘out of thin air.’ that is not true, although he had the name wrong and i assumed he meant the mbc. reader is correct that i should have waited for mcint’s clarification.

    but i have this afternoon had a very interesting conversation with the author of the piece which reader posted, Ismaeel-Haneef Hijazi, in the course of which i discovered a number of things. first, the mac ‘represents’ 700 mosques etc. only in a very nominal sense, in that these organizations have signed on to a single-issue campaign, and bring to that a variety of perspectives—how many would agree with hijazi’s assertion that this is purely a religious affront and not a manifestation of anti-muslim racism/prejudice is impossible to determine. i discovered also that the piece was written as part of a polemic against socialists in the Respect party. hijazi was explicitly concerned because the Socialist Workers’ Party in Britain was having some success in recruiting muslims and that they were, and this is a direct quote, “regurgitating socialist ideology,” which in the authors’ view is incompatible with islam.

    [for the record, i told hijazi that i disagreed with his position.]

    the piece is therefore written by an individual who is attempting to hold the line against the radicalization of (mainly young) muslims by an organization committed to a secular worldview. it makes perfect sense that he would therefore go out of his way to depict the cartons controversy in the way that he has.

    all of this is interesting, as well, because of course mcintyre and other who subscribe to the notion made explicit in the ‘manifesto’ that we are confronted by a struggle between ‘theocrats and democrats’ also charge that the left is involved involved in an unprincipled alliance with—as anthony put it to me—theocratic fascists. that explains his incredibly vicious red-baiting on air yesterday.

    but hijazi’s concern to keep this non-political, to deny publicly at least that there is a strong anti-immigrant and racist element to it, is telling in that it confirms that elements within britain’s diverse Islamic community are concerned that the collaboration with the left in the antiwar movement and in the fight against anti-muslim bigotry is undermining the hold that conservatives and traditionalists have within that community. this confirms precisely the point made in the article i cited a very long way back in this thread—neil davidson’s excellent piece on ‘islam and the enlightenment’: that it is in joint work against the truly reactionary forces now in their third year of occupation in iraq (and now gathering to rain bombs down on iran) that the possibility for building an alternative across the world exists. the racist provocation executed by the danish right and now taken up by the blanket can only have the opposite effect.

  • TAFKABO

    Show me where in the NT Christ or christians advocate “Rapes, incest, bloody murder, torture, sectarian hate, genocide”

    Abucs

    Why should I show you?
    I was talking about the Bible, which contains both the old and new testaments.
    Show me when Christianity parted company with the old testament, stopped using it as a guide, and I’ll accept your point.
    Last I checked, many fundamentalist Christians were using passages from books such as Leviticus as a pretext for Homophobia and other forms of hate.
    And as for the fairy tales in Genesis, now being promoted as science, in some quarters…….

  • elfinto

    Dear Felix,

    Sure the whole Holo-hoax was a lie fabricated by the world-Zionist movement and their puppets in the media. I mean, can you really prove that it happened? David Irving had the guts to stand up and tell the truth about it and the Zionists had their stooges in Austria bang him up. So much for free speech eh!

    Sorry to hear about you mate Milosevic. He was a great man, the victim of a giant conspiracy perpetrated by Madeline Albright. May eh rest in peace.

    elFascist

    Before anyone reponds I shouold add that these are not my real views but merely a parody of Felix’s views on events elsewhere. He is trivialising – even denying – the murders of people who were murdered solely becasue they were perceived as belonging to the wrong religion or ehtic group.

  • Harry Flashman

    Brenda

    You ask me am I a drone (a what? Like a male bee or an unmannned spy craft?) so in the same vein I ask you, are you blind? Or just incapable of reading posts?

    The post I referred to was the one directly above mine, from reader at 12.10 am. In which he explicitly states that the reason he and his co-religionists are offended is because the cartoons were an affront to their religion and not their various races.

    I would take his word on this rather than yours or brian kelly’s because judging from his comments he is actually, you know, a Muslim.

    I’ll try not to drone Brenda if you try to read the posts, that a deal?

  • Felix Quigley

    Brian Kelly

    I find this on the Blanket Site

    Using the Google search on the Blanket

    “Is there a danger that the world may to begin to look upon Israel as the moral equivalent in our own times of a Nazi Germany? This ‘moral equivalence in our …
    lark.phoblacht.net/wallshahid.html – 41k – En caché – Páginas similares

    THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesAnthony McIntyre • 27 May 2004. Last Saturday morning, along with perhaps … Did the Nazis target animals? The Israeli Army destroyed the only zoo in Gaza. …
    lark.phoblacht.net/gazaam.html – 46k – En caché – Páginas similares

    THE BLANKET * Index: Current Articles’Whether we are dealing with the racism of Nazi Germany, or apartheid South Africa or Israel, or the racism being suffered by ethnic minorities in Ireland, …
    lark.phoblacht.net/oneeye.html – 49k – En caché – Páginas similares

    THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesAnthony McIntyre • 4 February 2004. Last week, near the official residence … Only the day previous Israel killed eight Palestinians. But the Irish Times, …
    lark.phoblacht.net/getsgivesam.html – 39k – En caché – Páginas similares

    THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesFor some reason, tomes on Nazi Germany were plentiful. … Similar feelings visited me when I read of the 13 Israeli troops killed in Gaza earlier this …
    lark.phoblacht.net/ssgenam.html – 43k – En caché – Páginas similares

    THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesFirst, he posits that the creation of Israel was not an “act of Western colonialism,” … Should the Palestinians have ceased their resistance because Nazi …
    lark.phoblacht.net/lernersaid.html – 66k – En caché – Páginas similares

    THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesAnd the occupation of Palestinian land by Israeli state forces bears more resemblance to the Nazi lebensraum concept than those activities of Hamas or the …
    lark.phoblacht.net/needleam.html – 41k – En caché – Páginas similares ”

    Do I have to spell it out for you. Reference above to the “Nazi lebensraum”.

    And that is only the start. It has taken me only about 4 minutes so it is not exhaustive.

  • spartacus

    felix:

    not a single of these citations was penned by me.

    i want you to have a look at my writing, and produce a single quote in which i ‘call israeli jews nazis,’ which is what you’ve asserted i’ve done. if you cannot find such an instance, then i want you to retract your statement, above, that i have done so. very simple.

  • Felix Quigley

    Brian Kelly again

    However when one places on the search these words which refer to the key article by kelly

    “Zionism, Palestine & The Spirit of the Warsaw Ghetto. Brian Kelly. Avoiding Park Benches Anthony McIntyre. A Case For Change Ciarán Irvine …
    lark.phoblacht.net/archivesjune02.html – 52k – En caché – Páginas similares

    THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesZionism, Palestine & THE Spirit of THE Warsaw Ghetto. Brian Kelly. Avoiding Park Benches Anthony McIntyre. a Case for Change Ciarán Irvine …
    lark.phoblacht.net/cidecenen.html – 36k – Resultado Suplementario –

    Nothing comes up.

    Going from memory Kelly in this article argues that Zionism is indeed a fascist ideology.

    He also states in the article that it would have been preferable if Jews had tried integration in the host country rather than setting up Israel.

    But the most integrationist of all Jews were the German Kews and see where that got them.

    Kelly did not explain where integrationism got the German Jews.

    I will return to this article again when I find it. In the meantime Kelly can tell us where he wrote to disagree with McIntyres linking of Israel with Nazi.

  • Felix Quigley

    Spartacus. Who are you? I never referred to you. I do not know your name or your politics.

  • I am Spartacus!

  • Felix Quigley

    John O’Farrell

    You wrote above quoting me:

    “Felix Quigley asserts that “Once again the Srebrenica massacre story is a NATO, Media, and Islamist (The Bosnian Muslim Government was Islamofascist and was led by an ex Nazi and Islamofascist) lie. My site http://www.isill.blogspot.com will soon place the evidence for this.”

    I repeat to you and to everybody that the Serbs on retaking Srebrenica did not carry out the Srebrenica massacre, so called by the Media.

    Is O’Farrell the writer on the Guardian. I do not know so, it is a common Irish name, but if so it would explain a lot because in my opinion the two most anti-Serb papers were the Guardian and the Independent.

    I will take the issue first of the Bosnian Muslim Government being Islamofascist and being led by an Islamofascist.

    Read this about Izetbegovic

    “BOSNIAN PRESIDENT – AYATOLLAH KHOMEYNI’S RIGHT HAND MAN

    ——————————————————————————–

    ——————————————————————————–

    The basic facts of just what caused the conflict in ex-Yugoslavia are, still, not presented to the general public in the West…

    Alija Izetbegovic
    Source: AP

    To understand Bosnian Muslims one should understand their leader: self proclaimed “President of Bosnia”, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

    ——————————————————————————–

    A few (very few) articles were writen in the western media about the fact: THE LEADER OF BOSNIAN MUSLIMS IS THE LEADING FIGURE IN THE MURKY ISLAM FUNDAMENTALIST WORLD.s

    “Islamic Affairs Analyst” (IAA) publishes studies about Islamic world since 1935. IAA is published 45 times a year, in Great Britain… With the beginning of the civil war in Bosnia, in 1992, they wrote:

    Excerpts from issue of IAA entitled “MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISM IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA” published in 1992:

    (Quote:)

    There is a great reluctance in the West to recognize that the fighting in Bosnia is a resurgence of the conflict between Islam and Christendom which shaped five centuries of Balkan history.

    Disbelief in the West regarding Muslim fundamentalism in Bosnia stems from several causes, among which there is a pervasive, compulsive, complacency which holds that things can never be as bad as they seem, hence European officialdom refused to believe that Hitler meant what he wrote in Mein Kampf.

    President Alija Izetbegovic’s Islamic Declaration, first published in 1970 when it earned him a prison sentence, demanded a fully-fundamentalist Muslim state in Bosnia without scope for non-Muslim institutions or any division between religion, politics, and economics. The book was republished in 1990 in Sarajevo (by Mala Muslimanska Biblioteka). It scathingly attacks Attaturk’s reforms and holds up Pakistan as a model to be followed.

    …. ….

    Traditionally, Bosnians were among the most militant in the Muslim world. A ruling minority, they were proud of being the spearhead of the jihad into Europe, part of the two-pronged drive along Sava and Danube with Rome as its final objective. Occupation by the Habsburgs in 1878 caused some of them to emigrate, but others waited for fate to redeem them.

    (end quote)

    ——————————————————————————–

    But the story goes on. Only fifty years ago Serbs were subject to a genocide in Bosnia. The geographic district, under Nazi occupation, was part of Nazi Independent State of Croatia…

    For decades Encyclopedia Britannica had the following sentence when talking about WWII in Yugoslavia: “…IN BOSNIA… THE CROATIAN FASCISTS BEGAN A MASSACRE OF SERBS WHICH, IN THE WHOLE ANNALS OF WORLD WAR II, WAS SURPASSED FOR SAVAGERY ONLY BY THE MASS EXTERMINATION OF POLISH JEWS”!!!!!!!!

    One can find the above sentence in all versions of Britannica from at least 1971 till 1987.

    And who joined Nazi Croats in slaughtering the Serbs? You’ve guessed it: The Muslims! ”
    http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/alija.html

    So, That is the history. And it is the history of not very long ago. here it is suggested that the Bosnian Muslims were historically not the peaceful people and the victims that thjey are depicted by the Media.

    “The most militant in the Muslim world”, and the “spearhead of the Jihad”.

    That has NEVER been described in the Media in relation to the events of the 90s.

    That fact has been kept hidden.

    Could it be that Clinton, NATO and the Media wanted us to think that the Serbs were the Nazis and that the Croats and the Muslims were well just…nice, gentle and peaceloving

  • Felix Quigley

    John O’Farrell again

    You give the url above for a certain site. The article in question is called “Confronting the Abuses of Human Rights
    In the Post-Cold War Era, Ethnic Conflicts Result in War Crimes

    By John Shattuck

    Crimes of War: What the Public Should Know
    Edited by Roy Gutman and David Rieff
    W.W. Norton & Company. 399 Pages.
    $35 hc. $19.95 pb. ”

    So the article stating that the Serbs carried out genocide is by this guy John Shattuck. Who is he is the first question I would ask.

    At the end of the article it tells us:

    “John Shattuck is United States Ambassador to the Czech Republic and former Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, 1993-98. He and Hume have been married since 1991. ”

    I am not too interested in who Shattuck marries but I sure as hell am to know that he was a US Ambassador to of all places “The Czech Republic”.

    At what period, that would make it even more interesting.

    I am sorry, John O’Farrell, I do not take anything the CIA writes whether directly or indirectly and it is always the latter, without a hundred thousand checks, and then some”.

    I do not want to destroy your argument in this way but really! You must imagine you are dealing with an idiot here! If ever there was a questionable quote or reference in an argument then this is it.

    I think that one deserves to be framed and hung on my wall to remind me of this occasion. A joke, eh!

    The article contains very lurid pictures of bodies and of mass graves. But who are the bodies? I hope to come to that later!

  • Mick Fealty

    Felix,

    It seems that you are intent on drawing this into an ad hominem bun fight.

    Here’s a mild but perfect example in your reply to John O’F:

    “if so it would explain a lot”.

    The problem is not simply that you are prepared to make groundless accusations, but that you are tearing whole conversations up in order to make your point.

  • Felix Quigley

    Mick

    Are you going to let me make my argument against the guy or are you going to ban me right now.

    So is this the John O’Farrell who writes for the Guardian?

    Can I venture to suggest that IN MY OPINION the Media as a whole and the Guardian and the Independent in particular were anti-Serb, ie biassed.

    I do not ABSOLUTELY need to know that. I am just responding to what he writes above. But in my book it IS relevant.

    This is a new one on me. Tearing up conversations. Is that NOT what this kind of debate is about.

    You listen very carefully to what a person says. If you disagree you say so, and you DO tear up their conversation.

    I am sorry mick we are talñking about damned serious issues here.

    He alleges the Serbs massacred 8000 Muslims at Srebrenica. I say not. That it was a Media fix. Just like that photo remember!

    He then goes on to accuse Israel of the Sabra and Shatilla massacre when it was carried out by other Arabs.

    And so on, not forgetting the NATO bombning of Yugoslavia and the NATO bombing of the Chinese Embassy. And not forgetting the poisoning and murder, IN THEIR PRISON, of Milosevic.

    So why weign in on this point.

    It would explain to me his position if he was a writer for the Guardian.

    I am not making ANY groundless assertions here and I have not done. On McIntyre’s linking of Israel with the Nazi state I have hundreds of examples of same.

    Now can I continue my reply to O’Farrell, Guardian writer or not, he has stated things there that I can prove false. I am coming to the issue of the bodies and the mass graves.

  • DK

    It’s true that the Bosnian Moslems fought for the Nazis (in the SS to be precise), but they were unreliable and mostly got disbanded. The Croats were much better troops. But then some citizens in all of occupied Europe fought for Germany – even the Serbians (Serbian Cetniks openly collaborated with the Axis). And citizens fought against Germany – yes, even Bosnian Moslems.

    It means nothing. And I am begining to suspect that Felix has an anti-moslem thing, rather than a pro-Israel thing.

  • Mick Fealty

    Felix,

    Can I point you back to the Commmenting Policy above. Which part of ‘ball not man’ do you not understand. Whether John writes for the Guardian is as irrelevant to this conversation as the fact that your write for Israpundit. What you/he says is all we are interested in.

    It can also lead to the kind of hot water you got yourself into when you falsely accused another Irish blogger of having anti Israeli views on the strength of one interview with a prominent Palestinian official in which he let the gentlemen in question speak rather than cut across him.

    Ripping up an opponent’s contribution is permissable. Ripping up conversations is not. The first is about engagement, the second about disengagement.

  • Felix Quigley

    O’Farrell claims that I have a nasty attitude to Muslims. I reply that indeed HE has got a nasty attitude to the Muslim masses.

    I am opposed to Islamofascism which is the political ideology inside the Muslim masses. In order to be free these Muslim masses will have to free themselves from this fascist ideology.

    I am saying to O’Farrell that this is not separate from the Cartoon issue.

    The cartoon issue is really all about the threat of Islamofascism towards the people of the West, in Madrid, London and New York and to the Muslim people in places like Iraq as well.

    Muslim people will have to deal with this fascist ideology sooner or later IF they are to be free. I am on THEIR side but O’Farrell is not.

    O’Farrell has NOTHING to say, nor did McCann in his answer to me, about the Islamofascists who now lead the Palestinian Arab movement. The Islamofascists of the Hamas I of course have in mind. (Please do not be a gay in todays Palestine)

    They are linked directly to the Islamofascist Government in Iran which has threatened to wipe Israel off the map.

    .

    There was killing of a savage nature but it was carried out by the Islamofascists in the years before 1995.

    I end this answer to O’Farrell at this point (I will carry on the struggle for truth and clarity on my own site) by referring to this article by the Toronto Star in 1996:

    The Toronto Star
    July 16, 1995, Sunday, Sunday Second Edition
    Section: NEWS; Pg. A1
    Length: 816 Words
    Headline: Fearsome Muslim warlord eludes Bosnian Serb forces
    Byline: Bill Schiller Toronto Star
    Dateline: Belgrade, Yugoslavia

    BELGRADE, Yugoslavia – When Bosnian Serb commander Gen. Ratko Mladic swept triumphantly into Srebrenica last week, he not only wanted to sweep Srebrenica clean of Muslims – he wanted Nasir Oric.

    In Mladic’s view, the powerfully built Muslim commander had made life too difficult and too deadly for Serb communities nearby.

    Even though the Serbs had Srebrenica surrounded, Oric was still mounting commando raids by night against Serb targets. (Note, this was even when the UN had supposedly declared a safe area, but it was not safe for the MINORITY Serbs in outlying farming districts. The UN NEVER disarmed the Muslim Islamofascists…FQ)

    Oric, as blood-thirsty a warrior as ever crossed a battlefield, escaped Srebrenica before it fell. Some believe he may be leading the Bosnian Muslim forces in the nearby enclaves of Zepa and Gorazde. Last night these forces seized armored personnel carriers and other weapons from U.N. peacekeepers in order to better protect themselves.

    Oric is a fearsome man, and proud of it.

    I met him in January, 1994, in his own home in Serb-surrounded Srebrenica.

    On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric’s Greatest Hits.

    There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing.

    Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork.

    “We ambushed them,” he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen.

    The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: “We launched those guys to the moon,” he boasted.

    When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: “We killed 114 Serbs there.”

    Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.

    These video reminiscences, apparently, were from what Muslims regard as Oric’s glory days. That was before most of eastern Bosnia fell and Srebrenica became a “safe zone” with U.N. peacekeepers inside – and Serbs on the outside.”

    So the Bosnian Muslims, and especially the leadership part of the Bosnian Muslims which was Islamofascist (there were other Bosnian Muslim leaders who were pro-Serb and ANTI Islamist who were wiped out by the Islamofascists)were not all hapless victims, as the Media portrayed.

    Many of these Serbian villages were wiped out by these Islamofascist “warriors” in those years of the early 90s. In fact from what I read Slobodan Milosevic had withdrawn the Serb Army as a “gesture” and left the area defenceless!

    A connected point, part, just part of the answer to the body and graves issue and to O’Farrell’s use of the US report… many of the graves excavitated by the Hague were in exactly those areas.

    So how many of THOSE bodies that O’Farrell produces were actually Serb bodies.

    At the very least from the above quote by the Toronto Star you can say that this particular Islamofascist Bosnian was not somebody you would like to have an argument with. Today he lives happily running a disco. And the Serbs are being hunted by the Hague NATO court. And it is with NATO and the Islamofascists that O’Farrell lines up.

  • DK

    Felix,

    The fact that bodies from the mass graves have been identified as Muslims sort of disproves your comment “many of the graves excavitated by the Hague were in exactly those areas”. Dragan Čavić, the president of Republika Srpska, has acknowledged in a televised address that Serb forces killed several thousand civilians in violation of the international law, and asserted that Srebrenica was a dark chapter in Serb history. You’d think that maybe he’d not say that if there were any doubt.

    Lots of sources, although the wikipedia site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre) is probably the best pointer to them. It even mentions the revisionists like yourself & gives links.

  • Just in case anyone is still interested in the debate about publishing the cartoons, and its fallout, they should be made aware that the Swedish Foreign Minister was obliged to resign today because of okaying a misuse of her office to prevent a neo-Nazi site from publishing the cartoons. She made it look like a national security issue, and has rightly paid the price of her political interference. The Swedish public overwhelmingly favored her going.

    This should correct some claims that European governments and countries are willing to put up with any censorship to satisfy the Islamoterrorists.

  • Felix Quigley

    As I said before the consultation of encyclopedia proves nothing. Not written by God DK.

    O´Farrell tried to say that I had a nasty attitude towards Muslims, in other words that I am a racist. Written in that special journalistic hypocritical style but there is no doubt he was referring to me.

    I then explained that if you are a gay in Palestine today you are in some trouble. If you are a woman and you chance to have an extra-marital affair…not a good idea to be in Gaza. If you are a Christian ditto. And if you are a Jew in Gaza…oh I forgot thanks to the Bush Government, Sharon and Olmert there aren’t any! It is Judenfrei just as those Islamists like it.

    That is the contradiction in McIntyre’s position on the Cartoon issue. It is about Islamofascism right!

    So what is McIntyre’s position NOW that the Palestinians have went straight to the kill (of those pesky Jews) and elected the outight Islamofascists of Hamas.

    The central question also for O’Doherty, and certainly the central question for Brian Kelly.

    Now there is a man who has equated the Israeli state (which was set up with the approval of 99.9 per cent of Jews world wide) with the German Nazi state.

    Anthony McIntyre has done this so often and in so many articles on the Blanket it would take ages to repeat.

    Brian Kelly has thrown a challenge down to me as to this issue of Jews and Israel. His attack on Israel is unlike his attack on any other country in the world. What IS the name for that Mick?

    I would like to know on this site here and now does Kelly defend, never mind support, the right of the Jews to have their own state and that this state is Israel. That would clear up things.

    Do the Jews of this world have the right to have THEIR state, Just as the Arabs have at the last count 22 such states, and the Irish have THEIR state, and the protestants of the north have their state, the English theirs and so on.

    It is a very simple question.

  • DK

    And the Bosnian Moslems have the right to their state… What about them Felix?

  • Felix Quigley

    Brian Kelly

    You have been linked to the Blanket for a long time and now your articles have possibly been removed (whether you see that as a positive or negative I am not sure)

    Anyway I have a copy of your infamous article on the Warsaw ghetto. (!”.06.2002)

    I will quote only the first paragraph though the whole of the article is an attempt to link the Israeli state with the Nazis.

    “The supreme irony of Israel’s recent re-invasion of Palestinian towns in the West Bank is that its incursions coincided with the anniversary of another hopeless confrontation between an impoverished and vastly outgunned population and a racist occupying army-the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. In April and May of 1943, a handful of Jewish socialists and militants trapped in the crumbling Polish ghetto resolved that, although they could not possibly defeat Hitler’s war machine, they would go down fighting, inflicting “maximum damage” in the process. The key question for militants, one of the few survivors recalled, was “How should we die?” Today it is the Palestinian fighters in towns like Jenin, Ramallah and Bethlehem who best epitomize the spirit of the Warsaw resistance. The actions of the Israeli Defence Forces, by contrast, confirm that the Zionist state has adopted the bone-crushing tactics and the xenophobic mentality of the most vicious Jew-haters in history. ”

    Now that is some claim and some assertion to make. (You leave out of course that the Israeli Army took the fight to the terrorists in jenin, it had become a veritable bomb-making factory to send young killers on suicide missions.)

    Your claim then from the above is…that the Jews who were able to escape from the Nazi Holocaust have set up a Nazi state. And that state is Israel in your eyes.

    I do not think it is possible to invent a more studied insult to the nation of the Jews whether inside Israel or in the Diaspora.

    There is no getting away from it that is your position.

    That is also despite the cartoon publication at the very nature of the Blanket. I can quote you about 20 articles in which that site has done the very same ie link the Israeli state to the Nazi state of Hitler.

    It is a tactic which is used by the Palestine Solidarity Group which wishes the destruction of Israel.

    The question now is…what is all your positions when the Palestinian Arabs have went the whole way and elected the openly Fascist Hamas into power.

    No time to be a woman in Gaza, eh. But the FemiNazis like you are silent on that one.

    I still believe as I said at the beginning that you and mcIntyre on the issue of the Jew-hating Palestinian Islamofascists have probably got everything in common. You still support them. Why not stay together then. McCann too.

    I am still waiting to hear your position on the election of Hamas…

  • Felix Quigley

    I will just take one article and one extract from Anthony McIntyre. It is one among possibly hundreds in which the Blanket makes the link between the nazi state and Israel.

    It is on the 27 May 2004 edition of The Blanket:

    “Certainly, what there is to be read about Gaza in recent weeks bears a striking similarity to what Goldhagen wrote of Poland under Nazi occupation. There was no milk for babies, no means for women about to give birth to get to hospital, no electricity, no water. It is a place where even ambulances are shelled. Did the Nazis target animals? The Israeli Army destroyed the only zoo in Gaza. And what animals they didn’t kill they stole as loot. The region was saturated with tanks, bulldozers, planes and helicopters. Contrast this mechanised phalanx with the donkey carts used by Palestinians to escape the terror.

    The passion for murdering Palestinian children which seems to pervade Israeli military personnel was all too evident. When Goldhagen details how one Nazi killer would lift Jewish infants off the ground by their hair, hold them aloft and then put a bullet through their brains, before dropping them into a mass grave, all escape routes open to revulsion are, hopefully, immediately closed off within our minds. Are we supposed to employ the alibi of context and feel less revolted by the actions of Israeli military child slayers? They murdered Rawan Mohammed Said Abu Ziad just short of her fifth birthday; her crime – going to the shop to buy sweets at 10 in the morning. Then 14 year old Asma Mughayar, her life snuffed out by an Israeli sniper as she brought in clothes from the roof of her home. Ahmed, her brother and two years younger, murdered while feeding his birds.

    And in the next but one paragraph he goes on like this:

    “How people in Gaza sustain their faith in anything that exalts life is one of the modern wonders of our world. As puzzling, how a body of people with an acute sense of its own history could produce and perfect a murder machine such as the Israeli Army Einsatzgruppen. Kofi Annan may look at these paradoxes and then wax ethical before informing the Israeli government that its action is inhumane. But as Peter Murtagh, writing in the Irish Times asserts, Annan’s United Nations is an organisation ‘about which Israel has shown it doesn’t give two hoots.’ And why should it? The power behind the UN throne, the United States, backs Israel and finances its war on Palestinian children. After Rwanda where the UN pulled its troops out and allowed genocide to sweep the country, Israel knows it has nothing to fear.

    And when the UN refuses to strike fear in Israel and curb its murderous wrath, Palestinians will do it themselves. They will do it in crowded cafes and packed buses; they will do it at checkpoints and in settlements. Those of us who sought a just outcome will recoil in despair at the resort to such nihilistic activity. Others content to stay mute while Israel dished it out will find that their wails of disapproval will not weigh in the slightest in the deliberations of those who kiss their families good bye, strap a bomb to their bodies and walk off to do what was done to them.”

    You can make of the latter part of that, despite his phrase “Nihilistic activity” what you will.

    I want to home in on that sentence that fairly takes the breath away:

    “As puzzling, how a body of people with an acute sense of its own history could produce and perfect a murder machine such as the Israeli Army Einsatzgruppen. ”

    And that in a nutshell is my disagreement with McIntyre.

    It is also why I find it puzzling how anybody in Ireland would seek to sweep this under the carpet, while all this fuss goes on about the Cartoons.

    To find out and understand how angry a Jew would be please educate youself on the role of the Einsatzgruppen and what it means in Jewish (Israeli) history.

  • Felix Quigley

    DK

    Your point in my opinion is not substantial.

    Yet it touches on a vital issue. One of the techniques used by the NATO made up of the US and EU was to stir up ethnic division and in fact that is the way that NATO succeeded in breaking up Yugoslavia into client states.

    You may not be aware DK but there were a substantial (actually a majority) of Bosnian Muslims who were opposed to the Islamist politics of Izetbegovic.

    It is also important to understand that Clinton came in on the side of Izetbegovic and against these Muslims in Bosnia who wanted a continuation of Yugoslavia.

    As I said in my answer to O’Farrell Islamofascism is an ideology, a fascist ideology, inside the Muslim masses.

    The Muslim masses themselves are in great danger from this ideology and from this movement.

    Think in terms if you are a gay person today in Iran, or in Gaza. Quite simply your life is in great danger.

    or if you are a woman. That is why the FemiNazis in Ireland should hang their head in shame for continuing to support the Gaza Islamofascists.

  • DK

    Felix,

    Thought so – you don’t approve of a Bosnian Moslem state – never mind that Izetbegovic is long dead.

    Your colours are now clear. Very sad.

  • felix quigley

    I am taking your point seriously. This is because not everybody (or many) people know that the Muslim population in Bosnia was sharply divided. On the one hand were Islamofascists, on the other were ordinary muslims who did NOT want a Muslim state, but wanted the continuation of Yugoslavia. I do not think you are aware of this because you ignore this. But I am not surprised you do not know of this split because the Media never reported it and hid the real nature of the Islamofascist Izetbegovic regime. And Dk I am against the creation of an Islamofascist state ANYWHERE.

  • felix quigley

    To return to the original topic, of course I support McIntyre in the publication of the Cartoons. It is a limited opposition to Islamofascism but still important, because the issue of a Free press is important.

    I challenge McIntyre on the support which he gives to the Palestinians, which is a Fascist movement (I mean both the Fatah and the Hamas wings as evidenced not only in their terrorism against Israel but especially in their constitutions). McIntyre is silent on the threat by Iran to wipe Israel off the map. He and the whole neoleft in Ireland ignore the plight of women in Gaza, the plight of homosexuals in Gaza, the plight of Christians in Gaza. I pointed throughout this discussion to the contradiction in the politics of The Blanket in its support for the Jew hating and Islamofascist Palestinian movement.

    There is no contradiction in the Socialist Workers Party Brian McCann though. He clearly is in support of this Islamofascist phenomenon and that really is the basis of the split among these people of the neoleft.

    I have predicted that they will come together again such is the hatred of Israel and the deep support for the Fascist Palestinians whose only aim (again see their constitutions) is the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel.

    O’Farrell blew heavy and hard against me on the issue of Srebrenica. When I printed evidence in the article from the Toronto News that the Bosnian Muslim regime of Izetbegovic in the area of Srebrenica was engaged in the wholesale murder and ethnic cleansing of the minority Serb farners who lived in the outlying villages what did O’Farrell do. He did nothing. he shut up. He did not acknowledge the evidence of the Toronto Star interview with the Oric guy who boasted of blowing up the Serb civilians (ie strapping them to explosives etc)

    And why is this not a surprise to me. Because…

    1. The media continually painted the Serbs as “evil”

    2. Have hidden the fascist nature of the Islamist Izetbegovic regime. Painted them as moderates. Hid the role of the US and EU who weighed in on the side of the Islamofascist Muslim leadership and killers around Izetbegovic and destroyed the Muslim pro-Serbian moderates in Bosnia.

    3. Went very easy on the neo fascist Croatian regime

    4. Hid the historic roots in the Holocaust of both the Croatian regime and Bosnian Muslims. The Holocaust in the Balkans was directed against Homosexuals, Romany, jews and above all Serbs.

    All of which has been reflected in this important debate. I will continue to write on these issues on http://www.isill.blogspot.com

    Finally thanks to Mick Fealty for posting the issue and for allowing the debate to cover what I believe are these related issues.