A parallel dilemma: to govern or to fight?

Although it is always dangerous to make too simplistic a comparison between Northern Ireland and anywhere else in the world Mark Devenport puts his finger on one very precise parallel: the internal challenge of overwhelming electoral success of a fundamentalist political project. Of the important caveats he mentions, another couple could be added. That is: Hamas is the undisputed leader of opinion in their own polity; and two, it is walking straight into a position where it will immediately be expected to exercise fiscal power. The second represents a creative tension still noticeably absent from Northern Ireland’s political game.Today’s lead editorial in the FT picks up on this point:

…the US should not retreat from its strategic insight: that it is not democracy that creates extremism, but tyranny and the pervasive sense of injustice caused by running sores such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A tilt back to supporting Arab strongmen and Israeli intransigence is no answer.

Nor should Washington and its western and Arab allies exaggerate the extent to which Palestinians were voting for rejectionism so much as punishing the corruption and incompetence of Fatah. All calculations should start from the fact that between two-thirds and three-quarters of Palestinians have regularly backed a two-state solution.

That said, Hamas militants are generally not to be found among them – and they are about to form a government. The response to them should emphasise that democracy is not just about voting, but about seeking institutional responses and upholding the rule of law. If they are pragmatic, so should we be. It may be easier for the Europeans than the Americans to take the lead on this, as they have done on Iran.

Short-term, Hamas must extend its truce. It must also formally forswear attacks on civilians. It is not essential it recognises Israel: the Irish constitution did not recognise British jurisdiction over Northern Ireland for 60 years. What is essential is that Hamas behaves as a responsible government.

By the same token, the US and close allies such as the UK should stop deferring to the unilateralism whereby Israel is setting new borders to an enlarged state. That voided Fatah’s last plausible claim to power: its own ability to negotiate a solution to the occupation. Hamas too faces a dilemma: whether to govern or to fight. Let’s not make it easy for them.

  • smcgiff

    ‘it will immediately be expected to exercise fiscal power.’

    I don’t think Hamas will have much fiscal worries – It wont have to trouble itself with how to spend aid from the EU, US or Israel.

    As for NI, I’m not sure if anyone wants to get into power to make the tough decisions – Much better to let the suits push through reforms.

  • Christina

    For those based in Dublin or just happen to be there on Friday this lecture may be of interest to you:

    RIA National Committee for the Study of International Affairs

    lunchtime seminar in Academy House, Dawson Street (next to the Mansion House)
    Friday 3rd February (1pm to 2pm)

    After the Palestinian elections: analysing Hamas

    Dr Francesco Cavatorta
    Centre for International Studies
    School of Law and Government
    Dublin City University

    Dr Cavatorta has published extensively on political islamic groups in North
    Africa and the Middle East. He has recently returned from Palestine and is
    at present leading a research project for Development Cooperation Ireland
    – on the potential role of civil society in democratisation in the region

    RSVP – only if attending (just so we can judge numbers)
    Centre for International Studies, DCU
    tel 7007720;
    cis@dcu.ie

  • harpo

    ‘the US should not retreat from its strategic insight: that it is not democracy that creates extremism, but tyranny and the pervasive sense of injustice caused by running sores such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A tilt back to supporting Arab strongmen and Israeli intransigence is no answer.’

    Errr…isn’t it the US that supports Arab strongmen (or at least the ones they like) and Israeli intransigence on a regular basis.

    It’s a lack of democracy that creates extremism. There are many Arab countries that have no democracy yet are still supported by the US, with no questions asked.

    ‘but tyranny and the pervasive sense of injustice’

    Exactly what the US backs in those Arab countries that it supports, and did in Iraq by invading.

    The extent of US ‘strategic insight’ is ‘what is in it for us?’.

  • spartacus

    FT: ‘a tilt BACK to supporting Arab strongmen and Israeli intransigence is no answer.’???

    I wasn’t aware the US had ever rejected that path.

    First the nauseating coverage of the ‘peacemaker’ Ariel Sharon in his time of woe, and now this, an attempt to embellish the US intervention in PA as reformist, neutral. Ludicrous, superficial nonsense. The media want to explain away Hamas’ triumph as a manifestation of weariness at Fatah’s ‘corruption,’ but it is just as devastating a pronouncement on what Palestinainas think about being ruled over by Abbas, a man bought and paid for by the US, whose forces are being directed by the CIA and, apparently, being trained by remnants of the RUC.

  • Henry94

    the internal challenge of overwhelming electoral success of a fundamentalist political project.

    I’m not sure the DUP/Hamas analogy is very useful

  • Henry94

    After all one is a religiously fundamentalist organization which supplanted a more moderate party by implacable opposition to an internationally backed peace agreement which it will now have to implement. And the other is Hamas

  • Patricia Morrison

    Now you’ve read the Zionist/Imperialist side of the arguement you may find it interesting to see what Khalid Mish’al of Hamas had to say in today’s Guardian.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1698702,00.html

  • fair_deal

    On the fiscal side Hamas have a strong reputation for honesty in those matters, a key contributor to their electoral success over Fatah.

  • “But when it comes to Hamas, they refuse to recognise any difference between us and the al-Qassam brigade. Why is that?”

    It’s because you’re not white and the Ashkenazi Israelis are. As the browner Sephardic in Likud come to the fore this might change attitudes among the Yankee power elite. For the present DUH!!!

    Both movements built their base through assiduous grassroots activity.

    A good point but narrow in focus.

    The Irgun, the LEHI and the Haganah modeled their tactics after Michael Collins’s successful guerilla and pontifical war against the British Empire. What Hamas fights and Hamas, itself, derive from the same source.

    They will make the same compromises the shinners did. It’s the Power stupid.

    I only wish they’d hurry it up. The third or forth time around it gets to be a real drag if you’re not the one dodging the tank treads.

    We have already noted the lack of US domestic political sympathy for a Clintonian policy of constructive engagement with Hamas.

    There was a six year window of opportunity to end this thing. Powell gave it his best shot but he was stymied by the intransigents like Arafat and Bush cronies like Rice and Rumsfeld.

    We had the mother of all opportunities when Sharon realized he was dying and decided to make his memory something other than that of a butcher.

    It became feckin’ heaven-sent when Arafat died.

    It became a done deal when Bush finally had a crony, Rice, in position to do his bidding.

    They had a boot full of piss with instructions to empty it written on the heel and they still screwed the pooch just like 9/11.

    So, Sluggiepoos, it’s 1978 and the rough beast slouches toward Bethlehem once again. Maybe this time through the wormhole we can save John Lennon.

  • Harry Flashman

    Despite being initially depressed that the death cult that seems to constitute much of the Palestinian electorate chose the jew hating, homophobic, women loathing (except when the women are suicide bomb incubators) nutters of Hamas over the lying, thieving hypocrites of Fatah I now, in hindsight, see some benefits.

    It’s clear now; no more trying the hard cop soft cop routine. The hard cop is the government now, his softer colleague is lying outside face down in a ditch. There’s no more shilly shallying and saying “It’s not us Guv it’s those Hamas geezers, now if you’d just deal with me I can see if I can get them to calm down”.

    Israel has vacated the Gaza strip, it’s up to Hamas now, they can show us all how if the Palestinians were free of Israeli occupation they’d create a Singapore on the Med. You’ll forgive me if I don’t hold my breath waiting. When they lob the next rocket over the Israelis will be perfectly entitled to regard it as an act of war and can deal with it accordingly with full support from the UN. If I was Israel I’d be building that wall a few metres higher this week. The Arab Israeli citizens must thank God every day that granddaddy didn’t leave when the Jews came, imagine opting to live in Hamastan today?

    The “Palestinians” (curiously they were never called such a name before 1967, then they were simply Syrians, Jordanian and Egyptians) must realise that the world is thoroughly sick of them and their morbid death wish. The Arabs never liked them, if they did they would have been given their own state by the Jordanians in the West Bank prior to the Six Day War, and the rest of the Arab world would have granted them citizenship of their countries instead of keeping them at arms length in the so-called refugee camps (how can towns and villages built of concrete that have housed generations of people be referred to as “refugee camps”?) The people who once had sympathy for them in the non Arab world steadily recoil in disgust from the sight of the cess pit of murder and corruption that is Palestinian politics.

    The refugees in Eastern and Central Europe and in the Indian Subcontinent in the late 1940’s got on with their lives, as did the Jewish refugees who fled to Israel. Hong Kong, a barren rock surrounded by Mao and populated by those who had fled from his terror and ruled by a distant colonial governor nonetheless turned into an economic powerhouse. What made the Palestinians so profoundly incapable of moving on? Why have they sat in squalour for sixty years dreaming of the mythical olive grove that that Great Grandad said he once owned? I am truly sick and tired of the permanently sulking psychotic adolescent that is the Palestinian “cause”. If they cannot pull themselves out of the self destructive death spiral they seem to adore wallowing in then I couldn’t give a fiddler’s fart what happens to them.

  • Justice police

    Everyone should keep in mind that we will not have any kind of peace solution until we force Israel to its only legal borders the 1967 ones.

    The international laws of war demands it, and until Israel does so,

    Israel is violation the law. Period.

    We must force israel back to its legal borders. Period

  • Harry Flashman

    If anyone wants to follow the link given above by Patricia they should also read the hilarious review of the same article at dailyablution.com, scroll down to read his take on Hamas’ obsession with the Rotary Club.

    Hey Patricia, my dentist is a Rotarian, dya think I should tell him that Hamas is on to him? Or if I tell him will he blow his cover in the worldwide Jew conspiracy and he and his friends in the Freemasons and the Lions Club will all have to be beamed up to the Mother ship. . .

    What a bunch of maroons.

  • felix quigley

    I think this quotation from David Warren run by David Vance yesterday is apt, (oh and incidentally only somebody like Smiling Hillbilly Jim could make a comparision between Michael Collins and the Irish rightful national liberation struggle against the British in Ireland and Islamofascism with a strong dose of Jew hatred at its centre a la Hamas)

    “Hamas runs protection rackets that are more efficient than Fatah’s. And Hamas wisely invests more of their take in schools and clinics, so there is something to show.

    But Fatah has been, from its foundation in the 1960s, as terrorist as Hamas. The difference between the parties is merely tactical. Yasser Arafat discovered that Western (including Israeli) liberals are boobs, who could be conned into believing he was a “peace partner” if he just said so — in English only. In Arabic, Fatah has never concealed its project of driving Israel into the sea. Hamas, a little more honestly, thinks peace talks are all a sham. It’s the bombings that get results.

    In a word, Hamas won the election by successfully claiming credit for the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. In power, they will soon claim credit for the Israeli withdrawal of isolated settlements in the West Bank. That is how things are, how things were, and how things are going to be, and it is time for the West to catch on.”

  • felix quigley

    My goodness Patricia. And there I was, with a name like that, taking you for a sweet Irish lass. But what a mouthful you have just come out with!

    “Now you’ve read the Zionist/Imperialist side of the arguement you may find it interesting to see what Khalid Mish’al of Hamas had to say in today’s Guardian”.

    Patricia, where on earth do you pick up this stuff. Terms like the above, linking Zionist with Imperialist.

    You see that sort of thing on the Palestine Solidarity and on the IrishNazi Indymedia site.

    Really Patricia, I hope the time has come now for the casual use of such lying terminology is past.

    Can you explain what YOU mean by Zionism and what you mean by Imperialism, and then how you link the two together may be clearer to me?

    Start thinking for yourself patricia. And still no condemnation from you of Arab and Islamic FEMICIDE
    (SEE POST ON PAGE 2 ON PALESTINE)

  • Bill

    “I think this quotation from David Warren run by David Vance yesterday is apt, (oh and incidentally only somebody like Smiling Hillbilly Jim could make a comparision between Michael Collins and the Irish rightful national liberation struggle against the British in Ireland and Islamofascism with a strong dose of Jew hatred at its centre a la Hamas)”

    Ironic how you mention David Vance in the above sentence, seing as how both he and his colleage constantly compare the Irish struggle at any point in history with arab terrorism. 😀

  • felix quigley

    Yes, I agree with you there.

    But this is indeed a big issue, more than just point scoring as you use it.

    Whatever about david, and we all have differences, my position is that the Irish struggle against the British to gain independence was a true national liberation struggle.

    The Jewish struggle for a Homeland led by the Irgun against the British (also) was a true national liberation struggle.

    The essence of Palestinianism is Jew Hatred, and is in its essence a kind of fascist movement. No wonder its original leader was indeed a Nazi war criminal involved deeply in the Holocaust.

    Now we have Hamas et al, and we have FEMICIDE!

  • spartacus

    someone please administer the necessary medication to felix: he seems to have missed his daily dose. i don’t know what the criteria for pullling stuff down from the site is, mick, but harry and felix have both dipped deeply into racist filth here which would not be tolerated if it were directed at protestants or catholics, whites or blacks, etc. (‘The essence of Palestinianism is Jew Hatred,’ ‘Why have they sat in squalour for sixty years dreaming of the mythical olive grove that that Great Grandad said he once owned?’, etc.) if these don’t call for red cards, then you should never issue one again.

  • Patricia Morrison

    ‘1.Can you explain what YOU mean by Zionism and what you mean by Imperialism, and then how you link the two together may be clearer to me? ‘

    According to my dictionary and the meaning I give the term imperialism is ‘the policy of extending the authority of a nation by means of colonies or dependencies’

    By Zionism I mean the belief in ideals of the Zionist Federation founded by Theodor Hertzl at the end of the 19th century.

    The connection between the two involves/deserves more in depth analysis than I can give here but for what it’s worth.

    While living in Paris Hertzl came to the conclusion that anti-Semitism was both endemic to Europe and understandable. Believing that it was futile to resist he proposed the forming of a Jewish state in Palestine was the only solution which he summed up in the phrase ‘giving to a people without a country a country without people’.
    Unfortunately, the population of Palestine was at that time 500,000 of whom 4% only were Jewish. Hertzl’s response to this state of affairs is indicative of the Zionist position since ‘We shall try to sprit away the penniless across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country’
    Hertzl and his followers took their grand idea around the Imperial capitals of Europe attempting to garner support for it and, in the closing days of the first world war, landed it’s most significant step forward with the Balfour declaration.

    ‘I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to and approved by the Cabinet.
    His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.’ Arthur James Balfour, British Foreign Secretary, To Lord Rothschild. 2nd November 1917. At this time the population of Palestine was 700,000 of which the Jewish section

    When Britain was later given effective control of Palestine, under the Mandate, they set about making good on their promise. In the words of Ronald Storrs, the first British Governor of Jerusalem, (the Zionist ) ‘ ..enterprise was one that gave as well as him that took, by forming for England “a little loyal Jewish Ulster” in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism’.

  • felix quigley

    Ah Patricia now I begin to see where you are coming from and it is most useful. Thank you for your considered reply.

    I cannot answer fully here but perhaps partially.

    Your statement first about Herzl

    “By Zionism I mean the belief in ideals of the Zionist Federation founded by Theodor Hertzl at the end of the 19th century.”

    This Patricia is the first root of your confusion. It is true enough to say that organised Zionism and I emphasise “organised” began with its first Congress at that time, the end of the 19th century in 1897.

    But it is a big, and a really terrible, mistake to think that Zionism as a movement among the Jewish masses began then. The longing to return to Zion was kept intact at the centre of the Jewish soul for all of 2000 years, and especially since the brutal genocide of the Jews by the Romans. See recent work on http://www.hirhome.com for the significance of the Roman genocides.

    It is vital to see the roots of Zionism. At every Passover the Jewish families, most who were VERY POOR INDEED would turn in the direction of Jerusalem and would utter “Next year in Zion”.

    I consider Zionism to be the oldest national liberation movement, the movement of the Jews for a Homeland.

    I consider the Jews to be the most wonderful people there has ever been. Many lies are told about the Jews. This carries on into Israel today.

    This longing to return to Zion and even to die there was at the centre of their Jewish religion, but Judaism was more than a religion. It was also as I see it a political philosophy, a way of dealing with the terrible privations of their wandering persecution, over 2000 years.

    You having made that really terrible mistake you then go on to describe Herzl’s thoughts like this

    “While living in Paris Hertzl came to the conclusion that anti-Semitism was both endemic to Europe and understandable. Believing that it was futile to resist he proposed the forming of a Jewish state in Palestine was the only solution which he summed up in the phrase ‘giving to a people without a country a country without people’.

    You put in the word “understandable” and you put in the phrase “futile to resist”.

    These are VERY loose terms and I have seen them used on very dubious publications before.

    Let me explain how they are so terrible.

    Herzl if he did come to that conclusion, that antiSemitism was endemic in Europe, he was certainly proved right on that.

    How endemic is antiSemitism in the human race? I would say totally endemic.

    The Holocaust answered that with all the force that it is possible to answer.

    It was not just that the Nazis carried it out and do not forget that one of the leading Nazis was also the leader of the Arab Palestinian movement. (That was Hajj Amin el Husseini, close friend of Hitler, of Himmler and of Eichmann)

    No it was not just the German Nazis. The whole world and especially Britain and the US refused to intervene and in fact the Holocaust physically could not have happened without the technology of IBM.

    So Herzl was right on that. It was endemic.

    Your use of the word understandable. That is very ambiguous. You need to explain that one.

    When you say that Herzl felt that it was “futile to resist” now that is when you become really problematic.

    The Jews have always fought against antiSemitism and they have always resisted. But they have been forced to so as a wandering people, a people without a nation state.

    The Jews are a wonderful people, a very ancient people, their origins go right back as far as our own Celtic roots.

    But one very big aspect of anti-Semitism is that they are a people without a home. That is the nature of the oppression. That lies I think at the very centre of antiSemitism.

    The Zionist project, to create a state for the Jewish people, I consider the greatest national liberation struggle ever.

    (I have written more on your piece but have had to cut due to Sluggers limit, and a good thing that is too. Another time. Thanks for your response. Difference is not bad)

  • felix quigley

    Spartacus

    You write above this:

    “someone please administer the necessary medication to felix: he seems to have missed his daily dose. i don’t know what the criteria for pullling stuff down from the site is, mick, but harry and felix have both dipped deeply into racist filth here which would not be tolerated if it were directed at protestants or catholics, whites or blacks, etc. (’The essence of Palestinianism is Jew Hatred,’ ‘Why have they sat in squalour for sixty years dreaming of the mythical olive grove that that Great Grandad said he once owned?’, etc.) if these don’t call for red cards, then you should never issue one again.”

    I am trying to understand the nature of this Palestinian movement. I take nothing for granted. I look for sources in everything that I read.

    I centre my attentions at the moment on these things.

    1. the long history of Zionism from the time of the 2 Roman genocides

    2. The nature of anti-semitism and why it has such deep roots among all peoples of the world.

    3. The origins of what we now know as the Palestine movement. I find that the most important Arab political figure from 1920 until the 50s at least was a Nazi, a Jew hater of the most extreme kind. What did he pass on? Surely a valid question.

    4. The nature of Islamofascism. The role of women and the situation of women inside that movement. (And I do not discount any brutality to women, but that seems a specially organised type)

    I am sympathetic to the Arab poor and the Muslim poor. But fascist movements can take root among the poor as well. The poor can be used.

    And what is Hamas and Fatah constitutions all about, which both call for the ending of Israel.

    Finally exploring these very big lies and they are.
    The lie that Zionism equals Imperialism. For Gods sake Israel is the size of Wales. A look at the map shows it dwarfed by hostile Arab and Islamic lands.

    The lie that Jews are their own worst enemy

    The lie of Deir Yassin massacre in 1948

    The lie of the Jenin massacre, also spread in Ireland

    The lie of the Muhammad el Dura France 2 killing by the Israeli army

    Finally the issue of the present Israeli leadership and can it lead in the face of clear calls for genocide (Hamas, Iranian President etc)

    Spartacus you can try to twist myself and Harrys’ positions if you like.
    But I do think that Mick Fealty has enough principle and will always have enough to allow the discussion to continue.

    You should Spartacus have another think and realise that these are important issues that we are grappling with

  • Patrica Morrison

    Just for your benefit felix here is the quote I had in mind.

    ‘In Paris, as I have said, I achieved a freer attiude toward anti-Semitism, which I now began to understand historically and to pardon. Above all, I recognise the emptiness and futility of trying to ‘combat’ anti-Semitism.’ – June 1895

    The point being that Zionism is a compromise with anti-Semitism not it’s enemy

  • Harry Flashman

    Spartacus, will ye ever piss off trying to get me banned for my perfectly non-racist point about the Palestinian political cause being a load of junk. If you don’t like my politics fine counter argue, don’t go running to nanny Slug!

  • felix quigley

    Thanks for that Patricia:

    “‘In Paris, as I have said, I achieved a freer attiude toward anti-Semitism, which I now began to understand historically and to pardon. Above all, I recognise the emptiness and futility of trying to ‘combat’ anti-Semitism.’ – June 1895”.

    A freer attitude towards anti-Semitism, not sure what he means there.

    He begins to understand it historically. That is true and is good. There was the Blood Libels some decades before which also had a big impact on Moses Hess, colleague of Marx and Engels. And there was the Drefus case which had a huge impact on these Jewish middle class intellectuals like Herzl. Again good.

    And to “pardon” anti-Semitism. Now that is a strange thing for him to have said. Not good. What was he getting at? Everything he was doing in trying to save the Jews in the 1902 Russian Pogrom was the very opposite. And finding the answer to anti-Semitism in creating the Jewish state, again the opposite to “pardoning”.

    The last part the futility and emptiness of trying to combat anti-Semitism. Do not misinterpretate his meaning here. Look at his experiences.

    Herzl was one of the most integrationist of Jews. The German Jews had a whole movement based on integrationism, when you think of what followed huge pathos in that.

    But this layer of intellectuals were hugely effected by the Dreyfus Case when they saw crowds in Paris chanting “Death to the Jews”.

    This layer had always looked to France as the centre of the Enlightenment and following the French Revolution saw France and Paris as their hope for the future.

    Dreyfus had a big effect. If anti-Semitism could emerge with such venom in FRANCE of all places where was safe?!!! That is how they reasoned.

    And they turned their faces away from integrationism and towards a Jewish state.

    They saw the plight of the Jew and they saw anti-Semitism as being connected to having no nation state to call their own.

    This by the way is why I feel that now Jews should get fully behind the Kurdish struggle.

    Now that is the Jewish case for a Homeland. And the Kurdish. And the Irish. What then about the Palestinian?

    For to answer that we have to do historical research on what is the origins of the Palestinian movement, that which is called Palestine.

    As Harry says above I believe it is “a load of junk”. Well put Harry! But I spend my time trying to show this through historical research.

    We have precedents on how the Media can be used on a very wide scale, when during the 90s the Media continually depicted the Serbs as being Nazis. Nato launched their war on the basis of that Media led campaign with government controlled NGOs also at the forefront!

    I once thought the Palestine movement was genuine but with research I have found it to be a stratagem developed by the Arabs to destroy the state of Israel.

    One small point on this: These Arabs up until the 60s called themselves Arabs. The name Palestine only started to be used widely after they were defeated in the 1967 War.

    Patricia, I tend to take the approach of research which is why I only dip into Mick and David’s sites occasionally. Also I can see that you are interested in historical issues and despite our differences I wish you well. I will return to the comments you raise about numbers above on my own site. Just to say that by June 1948 when Israel was set up 6 million Jews had been liquidated. It is estimated that Hajj Amin el Husseini was responsible for the deaths of 1 in 15. I think that is 450,000 Jews. Numbers and their use of on this issue are problematic.

    But when 2 years ago I raised that criminal’s history I was met with incredible active opposition from many regulars on Slugger, still being carried on to the present, through the medium of personal attack, rather than dealing with historical research, WHICH SHOULD ALWAYS BE FULLY SOURCED.

  • Patricia Morrison

    felix, my reaction to the article was based on its billing on this site as a ‘through going analysis’ and I believe my critique is well justified. That you disagree surprises me not in the least given your denial of ‘Deir Yassin’ and ‘Jenin’ and over reliance on emotionally charged Islamophobic propaganda in other post’s on this site.

    But this is to stray from the main point (which I think is probably your agenda anyway) and that is the peace deal on offer from Hamas.

    1. Withdrawal by the Zionist Entity to it’s internationally recognised 1967 borders.
    2. The dismantling of the settlements, and wall, build illegally in the occupied territories.
    3. To enter into meaningful negotiations about the return of the Palestinian ‘Diaspora’ and restoration of their lands and assets in accordance with international law.

    It seems like a good basis for peace to me. Your reaction to this would be most welcome.

    For anyone else who is interested a more ‘reasonable’ Zionist, account of the massacre at Deir Yassin this link might be a good place to start
    http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/

    Similarly the UN report on ‘Illegal Israeli actions in Occupied East Jerusalem and the rest of the Occupied Palestinian Territory’ which deals extensively with the events in Jenin is available on line at
    http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/index.html

    For a bit of balance on the Nazi’s and Zionism this ebook has some interesting detail.
    http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/index.htm

  • Patricia Morrison

    Sorry if my last post above confused anyone. It was intended for a different thread and got here by accident.

  • felix quigley

    And I have answered it too!

    Most of what you write is confusing and evasive. I have reluctantly come to that conclusion.

    So I return to my original question to you and looking back your evasion started there.

    I raised the issue of Palestine and Arab Islamofascist treatment of women, and especially the practice of FEMICIDE, as is conducted in the new “Palestine, in Gaza and the West Bank.

    You evaded this issue and you have not yet in the past days while we have debated once issued a condemnation of this FEMICIDE conducted against Arab women.

    This is your weak point and of course I will continue to attack you on that point every chance that I can get.

    Meanwhile readers will wonder why you and other so-called Feminists are silent on this issue!