On the singular problem of penetration…

One of the key campaigns of Sinn Fein has been collusion. Indeed there are a number of cases in train where there is strong suspicion of collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and British security forces. The murder of Pat Finucane, Seamus Ludlow and the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. However, Anthony McIntyre argues that, from a Republican point of view, British penetration of the IRA may have been even more damaging to its cause.

…agent infiltration is par for the course. Just over five years ago, the late journalist Jack Holland sat in my living room while he and I conversed on his book Hope Against History. I expressed the view that his was one of the few narratives to puncture the peace process myth that the Provisional IRA had settled for an honourable compromise. Without equivocation, he had written that the organisation had been defeated. Even if the template intellectually underpinning the Good Friday Agreement had always been considered a victory for the British and a defeat for republicans, it was easier to pretend in 2000 that the achievement of an all-island Republic remained a work in progress. By 2006 no amount of shifting goalposts can conceal the paucity of such suggestions.

Interested to know why I agreed with his assessment, Holland pressed me to detail my thoughts on the reasons behind the IRA defeat. I explained that the array of forces ranged against it was too strong and the leadership was forced to settle up on terms devised by the British state as far back as 1973. It had more of the failure about it than a sell-out. He demurred.

Some time earlier he had co-authored the book Phoenix. It was a biographical account of Ian Phoenix, a RUC superintendent killed in the 1994 Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash. Having accessed the personal notebook of Ian Phoenix, Holland rapidly immersed himself in the detail of IRA susceptibility to penetration. It quickly emerged that a central player in Belfast who met at least one or another senior republican leader on a daily basis was in the pay of Ian Phoenix. The RUC had extensive knowledge in advance of the bulk of the IRA’s Belfast operations. Those they decided not to thwart, they allowed proceed in order to protect their agent. In Holland’s view it was impossible for the IRA to avoid defeat if penetrated at that level.

Ostensibly, the IRA sussed out many agents in its ranks. But few seem to have occupied positions of leadership. Who today would say with certainty that any of those foot soldiers put to death for informing were in fact guilty? The IRA’s word on the matter can no longer mean anything, the lie having come to define republicanism in its current form. The families of those ‘executed’ for alleged informing carried the mark of Cain within republican communities. Yet their loved ones may have been sent to walk the plank by senior figures who hoisted the Jolly Roger rather than the tricolour.

  • sr mercy

    sad but becoming more evident with passing time.

  • heck

    I think I agree with this. Adams and McGuiness probably realized this long ago, and the political path was taken out of necessity, not a conversion to non violence.

  • This is incredible rubbish from Anthony McIntyre.

    Just read the book Holland and Susan Phoenix wrote, Phoenix: Policing the Shadows. They describe Operation Furlong, starting in 1982 (p. 154ff.), and it shows that the UDA man, James Pratt Craig, working for Ian was picked over by Number 9 on the RUC’s Provisional list for Belfast.

    They got rid of Mad Lennie Murphy, Andy Tyrie, and a series of UDA leaders for the next four years. Ultimately, the process would cost Craig his life. And the UDA there has lived in fear of it ever since – just look at what happened to Jim Gray.

    This, in sum, is crap, and you should have checked McIntrye’s story before posting it.

  • Joe Faire

    Trowbridge, really none the wiser after reading that. Can’t make sense of what you are saying. Maybe I have missed something but the story by McIntyre doesn’t mention any of the stuff you go on about. It just says Holland claimed Special Branch had a agent in the Belfast IRA. Are you saying this is wrong? If it is then just tell us instead of going round the block a few times

  • Henry94

    If Anthony McIntyre believes the IRA was defeated then it’s hard to understand his constant criticism of the political path taken by the SF leadership.

    I think there is an inconsisteny in his work that stems from always grabbing the most convinent club to hit Sinn Fein with.

    It s to say the least a limited and negative approach.

  • martin ingram

    Mr Mc,

    In my opinion Is a true Republican an Ex IRA man who remains true to his priciples. I have debated many issues with him and it would be true to say that we disagree on most but in respect to collusion and the activities of the Sinn Fein Leadership we find common ground.

    For those that do not Know Mr Mc in person he is a straight talking educated Republican who does not suffer fools easily.

    The real paradox here is the IRA know many of its volunteers were innocent victims yet because people like me and Mr Mc have been telling them for years they do not feel able to come clean. I say to them grow up and listen to people like Mr Mc. Victims are victims even if they are IRA men and for you ( IRA) to hold the mark of CAIN over these families is corrupt and wrong.

    Trow,

    You read too many books and you lack any real insight into this subject.Please stop making these wild claims, especially about me killiing the Swedish PM. If you Read what Mr Mc wrote he recounts personal meetings with Holland, nothing more nothing less.

    Martin.

  • Joe Faire

    Martin, that explains Trowbridge then. Pity. I thought he was going to tell us something worthwhile

  • I have just had another long explanation scrubbed without explanation of why McIntrye’s article and his blind defenders are so wrong which I will not go to the trouble of repeating for fear it too will simply disappear.

    The book Phoenix shows quite clearly that the RUC’s handling of James Pratt Craig completely backfired, not against the Provisionals, but at the expense of Lennie Murphy, Andy Tyre, Tommy Herron, the McCreery brothers, Craig, and several other UDA leaders.

    It showed that the RUC was working for the Provisionals rather than the other way round.

    In short, start reading some books, especially one when it is in question, rather than just ignorantly shooting your mouths off.

  • Mick Fealty

    Trow,

    That’s not censorship. Just be careful how you type in the code.

  • Joe Faire

    Trow, sounds wierd. There are no touts in the IRA – they are all in the RUC working for the IRA? The good thing about Slugger is that it allows a wide range of ideas even the bizarre. Ingram did you kill President Kennedy?

  • martin ingram

    Joe,

    For fecks sake Trow would not let me sleep at night If he thought could pin a street mugging on me. My mate Trow is an avid reader a reader of anything that he could twist to show the IRA was running the RUC. Nice one Trow.

    Ingram did you kill President Kennedy?

    Martin

  • martin ingram

    A mutual friend copied this to me.I think it compliments Mr Mc points.

    The Sunday life, (picture of FRU shield and a IRA man with his balaclava)

    One in three provisonals was a British agent.

    Up to thirty of percent of IRA membership was on the payroll of British Intelligence. The startling claim made by intelligence expert and athour Nigel West. West – Tory MP Rupert Allisson claim that the run up to the IRA’s 1994 ceasefire and peace proces that followed a staggering one in three Provisonals were working for the British .West claims they were controlled by shadowy intelligence unit and joint service unit group (JSG) and its forerunner the FRU.

    The claim of thrity percent penetration of the IRA is made in West’s new book which reveals the secret stories of his A to Z of espionage.

    In a reference to the Joint Service group West claims this organisation played a big role in the penetration and elimination of the provisional IRA. By the time the peace proces was being innitiated it was estimated that up to 30 per cent of provisonal membership were on the British payroll. Throughout the troubles the Republican Movement was plagued by agents working for the securty servcies while also being card carryng members of the IRA and Sinn Fein.

    They included Eamonn Collins a former IRA man who was battered to death in Newry in January1999 . Greg Burns, John Dignam and Aiden Starrs theywere murdered and dumped by the road side in South Armagh in July 1992 and most recently Denis Donaldson Sinn Fein’s head of Administration at Stormont who was unmasked before christmas.

    For the record. I would not put the level off penetration so high but the argument is not about numbers but quality.

    Martin

  • COLLUSION IS NOT AN ILLUSION!

    Henry: are you suggesting that as the IRA was defeated, Republicans should accept Sinn Fein’s chosen political path? Your point about inconsistencies is not clear. Have not the Sinn Fein leadership dressed their political path in the victory of the IRA (Undefeated Army)?

    Putting McIntyre and your opinion of him aside, can you address the point highlighted?

    Is there a need for more transparency regarding British agents in the Republican movement and their role in the deaths of IRA volunteers and others?

    Do Republicans need to revisit the past in regards to this matter?

    Should public inquiries be demanded of the British into the actions of their agents, as the Finucanes and the Ludlows and the Notorantonios and the Rosemary Nelson campaign have asked for?

    Should the leadership of the Republican movement hold a public inquiry?

    Should a public inquiry be independent of both the British government and the leadership of the Republican Movement?

    Should Republicans endorse any OTR legislation that allows for a curtain to be drawn over the past? Before any of the above are addressed in any credible manner?

    Are apologies needed to the families of loved ones wrongly accused (and put to death or exiled)?

  • Kathy C

    hi all,

    We can all agree that the brits did infiltrate the PIRA…it’s just that the numbers are up for discussion.

    That said…it is still a remarkable feat that the IRA took on a nuclear member of the UN Security council and was as successful as they were with so many traitors and paid informers in their ranks. Just think how far the republican cause would be today if it wasn’t for the traitors…in the PIRA and SF….However as the republican movement states….our day will come!

    and as Bobby Sands wrote in his poem the “Rhythm of Time”

    …It is the undauntable thought my friend,
    That thought that says, “I’m right.”

    The cause is just…and right…and the republican movement will triumph in the end…and I’m happy for Bobby Sands and the other hunger strikers that the traitors and informers are being sussed out like the rats they are….

  • west belfast resident

    Hi Kathy,

    ‘Just think how far the republican cause would be today if it weren’t for the traitors’

    Where would they be do you think Kathy? You see I don’t believe the numbers matter at all. A dozen well placed moles would have been capable of doing the same job as a few hundred, that is to steer the leadership in the direction the moles wanted it to go. Would you not agree?

    If there’d been no traitors at all one could ask would there be a Stormont that they were gagging to get into? Would SF be involved a British institution? Would they be administering British Rule in Ireland?

    Please don’t get me wrong. I am truly glad the IRA has ended it’s military campaign, but then if there’d been no campaign at all would we not most likely be where we are anyway? I believe we would and that is the sad thing, that so many have died and been victims of the ‘struggle’.

    CINAI poster asks should the leadership of the RM have a public inquiry? Absolutely. And apologies should be issued to the families of those wrongly accused.

    ‘The Republican Movement will triumph in the end.’

    Will they?

  • pd

    This debate is completely academic and driven by a hysteria about the number or seniority of informants within the IRA. Wild allegations from the British side are playing up the idea that the IRA is riddled with informers. Or more accuratley that SF is today. If that is the case why wasn’t the IRA brought to its knees pre-1994. Whay was the republican movement allowed to help negotiate a political settlement which clearly unnerved unionism? The answer appears not to ‘lie’ in the spook land of would-be ‘know alls’ such as Jack Grantham (Ingram. The answer is relatively simple the British had a number of informers in Sf and IRA but not enough at a high enough level to destabelise the republican movement.

  • Yoda

    Is there a need for more transparency regarding British agents in the Republican movement and their role in the deaths of IRA volunteers and others?

    Sweet Jehovah, yes, yes and thrice yes. I have been arguing for this in various places for nearly two years.

    But there are very real problems.

    1) Would a comprehensive inquiry be genuinely comprehensive? Would we get to hear about all the agents? Or would we get an “IRA only” focus?

    If the current state of affairs with respect to the uncommissioned loyalist paramilitaries is anything to go by, I wouldn’t be too hopeful.

    The obsession with the IRA is so intense, that even when the loyalists on rare occasions get a gumming, follow-up is usually conveniently lacking.

    2) If there was an inquiry tomorrow, who would bear the brunt of the political fallout? Clue: everytime an agent is uncovered in SF, who gets hammered in the media? The British or SF?

    It’s as if only one side were at fault or playing fast and loose with people’s lives.

    3) What would happen if the largest nationalist/ republican party in NI is destabilised in this manner? What would be the longterm effects on nationalist politics in NI?

  • Henry94

    pd

    I agree. What was obvious at the time and makes perfect sense in retrospect is that electoral progress was hampered by the armed struggle.

    I’d imagine the IRA could see obvious benefits to the republican cause in Sinn Fein’s political progress.

    The article claims

    The RUC had extensive knowledge in advance of the bulk of the IRA’s Belfast operations. Those they decided not to thwart, they allowed proceed in order to protect their agent.

    Unionists had a big problem with the release from jail of the Shankill bombers. How would they feel if they believed the British could have stopped that bomb but didn’t.

    Can any of the people whose relatives were killed by the IRA in Belfast deal with the idea that those victims were expendable. To protect agents?

    Can we get a year from which we can look at the victims lists and see who was let die to protect British agents.

    And if you add the people killed by British agents on both sides and the people murdered to protect them does a picture emerge where almost every death in Belfast was under British direction or supervision one way or another?

    Can there be any argument against the peace process if that was the case.

    Should the Orange victims march in Dublin re-direct itself to the British Embassy. If Anthony McIntyre is right maybe it’s time to burn it down again. But with the Orange leading the charge.

  • COLLUSION IS NOT AN ILLUSION!

    HENRY
    Can you answer any of the questions put to you, thanks.

    YODA is your position thus that those sorts of questions and issues are better left unexplored, to protect the politicians? That is how your position reads.

  • Yoda

    CINAI

    I said I want to see transparency. Yes.

    I’m also saying that I’m all for fair, full and open disclosure with tolerant, fair and responsible discussion of the issues involved.

    I’m also worried that it might not happen.

  • Big Sid

    Would everyone agree that we will never really know the full extent of the spying and counter spying?
    Even if there was an inquiry, are the security services just going to stand up and admit all?
    I doubt we will ever be able to give more than educated guesswork.
    In my opinion, the PIRA could not win, they knew it. This is largely due to the work of agents. However, barring any Isreali style tactics they were unlikely to be wiped out. This in itself would have been counter productive…1916 anyone?
    So rather than drifting into obscurity as per OIRA, post border campaign, the PIRA/PSF movement went for the settlement that was no better for them than the AI Treaty that Collins ended up being murdered for/just war… whatever you see it as.
    Anyway, the IRA retain the capability, because the knowledge of bomb making is retained, the AK47s are fairly useless to an underground terror organisation. All they need is some explosives…cue fertilizer and some (duty free) semtex from the Euro zone!
    An unlikely senario…at present.
    But they have not had a (st) Paul style conversion…and as the 1990s evidence proves are not past the age of a “reminder” bomb or double murder, of policemen in Portadown say.
    Do SF pose a real threat to the state? Nah, but by stirring up the uninformed, combat 18 influenced loyalists they could make life very difficult for their own kith and kin. Lets hope Hugh and his boys can make the charges stick on the few remaining “top” loyalists. Agents, no doubt have had a role in this as well. But who really knows.

  • Henry94

    COLLUSION IS NOT AN ILLUSION!

    I’m happy to offer my opinion on your questions but be aware that I don’t speak for anyone other than muyself.

    Henry: are you suggesting that as the IRA was defeated, Republicans should accept Sinn Fein’s chosen political path?

    No. But it is McIntyre’s position and what other than politics does he think the alternative is in that case? I remember him complain in one election that people like him had nobody to vote for. I suggest he runs for election himself in that case. I’d like to see if he has any positive proposals or is it really all about blaming Gerry adams for everything. Because that’s the impression I have.

    Your point about inconsistencies is not clear. Have not the Sinn Fein leadership dressed their political path in the victory of the IRA (Undefeated Army)?

    If some people need to be told that someone won or lost the war to get them into the peace process then I’m all for telling them. The main thing is that the war is over. If we can’t agree who won then maybe nobody did. What amazes me is that there are people who miss it.

    Putting McIntyre and your opinion of him aside, can you address the point highlighted?

    See above post

    Is there a need for more transparency regarding British agents in the Republican movement and their role in the deaths of IRA volunteers and others?

    I’m for transparency.

    Do Republicans need to revisit the past in regards to this matter?

    Have you a specific proposal?

    Should public inquiries be demanded of the British into the actions of their agents, as the Finucanes and the Ludlows and the Notorantonios and the Rosemary Nelson campaign have asked for?

    An independent inquiry should be demanded.

    Should the leadership of the Republican movement hold a public inquiry?

    No. They should support one but not hold it. How could they be considered independent enough to hold a public enquiry.

    Should a public inquiry be independent of both the British government and the leadership of the Republican Movement?

    Yes but how? And if the British refused to cooperate how could they be compelled. Dublin/Monaghan for example.

    Should Republicans endorse any OTR legislation that allows for a curtain to be drawn over the past? Before any of the above are addressed in any credible manner?

    You either draw a curtain over all of the past or none of it. My view is that there should be no prosecutions but we should try to agree some kind of truth process.

    Are apologies needed to the families of loved ones wrongly accused (and put to death or exiled)?

    I think the IRA should put everything it knows about any death in the conflict into the public domain irrespective of what anyone else does. Apologies may be due arising out of that from an IRA perspective.

    But in asking me to agree to apologies for those killed in the wrong you are inviting me to subscribe to the view that some people were killed in the right. I’m not ging to do that.

  • west belfast resident

    ‘Every time an agent is uncovered in SF who gets hammered in the media?’

    Who would you expect to get hammered? The British for keeping an eye and ear in a party that until very recently had it’s own paramilitary army, and even though the guns are gone it is still there in structure and rackateering?

    ‘What would happen if the largest nationalist/republican party in NI was destabilised in this manner?’

    Do you think the roof would cave in? What would happen exactly, perhaps it would splinter in to many smaller pieces, which would eventually reform, or a new SF would emerge, one free of British influence with a new leadership and direction perhaps? Why would anyone fear SF destabilising or even imploding?

    If there was an open and transparent inquiry tomorrow many families may achieve closure and justice for their dead, and a stigma attached to their name removed.

  • Kathy_C

    -Hi all,

    west belfast resident, you stated that you don’t believe the number of moles really matter…I agree…they don’t. You also state that the moles were to steer the leadership in the direction the moles wanted…that again is true…YET and it’s a big YET…the leadership opted to take the position and go down the road that the moles wanted -the road the british wanted…and that’s where I have a problem with the leadership of adams/mcguiness
    It isn’t as though the leadership didn’t have alternative views…they did…mineand my sister. But they opted to reject our ideas and lately picked the one that helped the brits.
    It was my sister and mine idea to link the orange order to the KKK and nazi’s…SF did and it was very effective. Then SF changed roads and went down the alex maskey road that wants to find a place for the orange order…where?…like down garvahy road…Alex? We wanted SF to take on the orange order as the hate group it is…they /SF opted to have SF go down the british road to recognize the orange order as a historical organization that the heritage should be honored and respected. I think the oo/kkk should be fought politically with fervor and total resolve. SF lately does not…why is that…? because it’s good for the peace process…no…because it’s good for the brits…and that is what is driving the SF agenda as of late.
    The republican movement will succeed…even with the spies, traitors and bad leadership because the orange order will eventually be defeated- there will be a united Ireland and the rats in pIRA and SF will be found out…it’s just a matter of time.

  • martin ingram

    PD

    Quote”(Ingram. The answer is relatively simple the British had a number of informers in Sf and IRA but not enough at a high enough level to destabelise the republican movement”Unquote

    Not True.

    Let us precis were the RM are today.

    1. A United Ireland is not even talked about seriously, it is not even an option today.

    2. IRA Unilaterally Decommissioned, contrary to its own Standing orders. Loyalist gunmen retain their arms and the British Army remains in the Northern six counties.

    3. Sinn Fein take up seats South of the Border and take up seats in the Northern British Administration ( Stormont) and received payement for this work in administering British rule. Sinn Fein has a number of Northern British MPs and is payed for this role with queens shillings.

    4 Sinn Fein is working towards involvement in the policing of the North alongside PSNI/RUC.

    5. The public exposure of the entire IRA security/In telligence team and other senior members of Sinn Fein who have all worked for over two and half decades .We all know the corruption goes deeper.

    6. The Irish Republic gives up its old territorial claim to the North. The GFA is based upon consent and offers no real prospect in the next few generations of achieving a UI.

    7. The IRA/ Sinn Fein negotiated a deal back( OTR) in 2003 with HMG which would allow British state killers to avoid any justice or inquiry into these criminal acts.It defended this British legislation for weeks and even sent Connor Murphy to Westminster to defend it even after the knowledge re: State killers being able to avail of this law was known. It only relented after the SDLP shamed them in their own community.Shame on them to agree to this whilst using the valid issue of OTRs as a cover.

    8. The IRA today has given up its arms and its principles but still retains the will to fight for the drug deal the counterfeiting, the bank robberries etc Just look around Republican areas . Prominent Republicans living in nice houses ( Sometimes 2 or 3) , posh cars, foreign homes etc.This reminds me of the old stickies.Corrupt.

    Now shall I go on? thought not.

    In respect to negotiating a good deal in 94 or indeed 98, the IRA was in a poor negotiating position during this period.Why ? because the Adams / McGuinness leadership was in secret hatching a deal with the Brits has far back as the eighties. That is not a matter of speculation but fact, of course they now say they did this for the best but THEY DID IT WITHOUT THE IRA KNOWING.WHY? Because he Adams knew is argument would not be carried.

    If you would ask a Hunger striker( Bobby Sands) today what he thinks of this deal, what do you think Bobby would say? success or not?

    PD, stop dreaming and deal with the reality.

    Martin

  • This thread is about McIntyre, and what he wrote. The highjacking of threads on this site is getting as bad as what occurs on the RBB.

    McIntyre deliberately misrepresented what Holland had written about what Ian Phoenix attempted and achieved in Operation Furlong – making out that it demonstrated crucial failures by the Provisionals when, in fact, it was nothing of the kind. The operation helped the Provos get rid of the worst loyalists.

    By doing so, McIntyre was able to make more of Holland’s certainty about defeating the Provos, especially since Holland and the leading hard-line counterterrorists were killed in a helicopter crash which has never been adequately explained or investigated. Was it an accident? Mechanical failure? Sabotage? If so, by whom?

    McIntrye should be ashamed of what he wrote, and the liberties he took, and this site did itself no service by posting his total disinformation.

    In sum, let’s stick to one subject at a time rather than run all over the place when any opportunity presents itself.

  • Mull of Kintyre

    Yes, let’s talk about that fatal night when Jack Holland was killed in the helicopter crash. Let’s not lose the run of ourselves here, now.

  • martin ingram

    Trow,

    Once more you display your total lack of knowlege here.

    Holland did not die in that Crash.

    This topic is about Mr Mc and the level of penetration within the IRA/ Sinn Fein. Stop trying to take us off at tangents.

    Martin.

    P.S. I have offered to help you before off Forum but you keep posting these idiotic claims. You are beyond help.

  • west belfast resident

    ‘The British Army remain in the six counties’

    Martin Ingram are you saying the British Army is here as an occupying force? Because if you are that doesn’t make sense. The army are not patrolling the streets anymore, or keeping the peace, although they can be called upon, but then can’t they be called upon in any region of the UK? The rest of your comments how can anyone disagree?

    It’s been a long time since anyone described them as an occupation force!! That’s old hat in these days of a devolved N Ireland. Aren’t we now thanks to Sinn Fein more integrated in the UK than ever before.

    To call the army of the government in which Sinn Fein serves (or desperately wants to serve) is possitively treasonous and you should apologise right now.

    Kathy C I understand your point, but you asked where the RM would be today if it weren’t for the traitors,and then go on to say they will win.

    Traitors are a weapon used by the enemy, any enemy and are just as important to an enemy as artillery, or anything else. No wonder they allowed bombs and deaths to occour to protect their agents. It’s a weapon that has been used time and again, witness the sending of Flannigan to Iraq.

    The fact is they (RM) cannot win as it currently stands, because they have been so heavily infiltrated. Not because they have been beaten militarily.

    If this is the case how can you state ‘the RM will win it is just a matter of time?

  • Mull of Kintyre and Ingram, you are simply digusting.

    I noticed the mistake about Holland as soon as I posted it, and replied with a correction, stating that it was Phoenix who was killed in the helicopter crash, but it was scrubbed again, Mick, without explanation.

    I posted another correction which appeared somehow on another site, but since I had to rush off to the hospital for my girl friend at the time, I was unable to make yet another correction on this site, and since I have returned, I cannot even find my second correction now.

    Of course, the mistake about when and where Holland and Phoenix died really did change my argument – McIntyre taking great liberties with the dead, and why Phoenix may have been murdered.

    And no thanks, Ingram, for your offpost help. I don’t need any 9 mm rounds up my nose, thank you!

  • martin ingram

    WBR

    Quote”Martin Ingram are you saying the British Army is here as an occupying force? “Unquote

    I am making the point a genuine Republican like Mr Mc WOULD VIEW the British Army and me when I was serving as an occupying force.Nothing more nothing less.

    You must understand the context of my post.

    The army are not patrolling the streets anymore, or keeping the peace, although they can be called upon, but then can’t they be called upon in any region of the UK? The rest of your comments how can anyone disagree?

    I could not have put it better myself. Just like any other part of the UK. That is a very accurate and fair point, the IRA has gone the peace returns and not a lot else changes. Status Quo

    Martin

  • Mick, since you are apparently not responding to my complaints about how my posts are being treated on this site, I am asking you to explain where the second correction of my 9:13 a.m. post above went. Unlike the six to eight earlier disappearances of my posts, this one definitely was posted somewhere on your site, but I have not been able to find it.

    Please tell me where it is, and if you don’t or can’t, I can only conclude that you are engaging in deliberate censorship – what I have long suspected, given the earlier scrubbings.

  • crow

    Trowbridge

    Maybe Mick is a securocrat.

  • martin ingram

    Trow,

    Quote”I am asking you to explain where the second correction of my 9:13 a.m. post above went. Unquote

    Maybe Jack Holland intercepted them.

  • west belfast resident

    Trowbridge How is your girlfriend. Hope she’s ok.

  • I really cannot understand all this foolishness.

    What McIntyre claimed is important enough to get into the Belfast Telegraph – what today’s issue has a story about Ingram, the self-proclaimed whistleblower who is just waiting for the MoD to turn him loose, wanting to clear up the 1989 murders of the RUC SB officers! – but when the whole sordid tale is exposed despite the most straw-grabbing red-herrings, all you people can do is engage in more deceptions.

    Mick’s failure to allow my posts to be posted, and failure to answer when challenged about it speaks for itself.

    Ingram’s continuing exploitation of McIntyre’s misuse of both Holland and Phoenix speaks volumes about the man, and if the inquiry in the Republic takes his offer seriously, one can just wonder if it is working for the securocrats too.

    As for my girlfriend’s condition, she went to the hospital because we thought she might be suffering from a blood clot in her head – what the nurse thought was serious enough to have an emergency meeting with a doctor, but he thinks she doesn’t have one, though he has prescribed medication to deal with a clot if she has.

    In sum, we were concerned, and thanks for yours, West Belfast resident.

  • Mick Fealty

    Trow:

    If I’m preventing your posts, how come your complaints are getting through? If you post too quickly after your previous one the site’s software will intervene and not let it go through. As to what else it might be, I’ve no idea.

    I depend largely on the good sense of our commentators to self regulate. I don’t take a hands on view of what should or should not be on here. I only hope that individuals will aspire to high quality outputs regardless of their outlook.

  • Trowbridge, have you ever encountered anyone named Felix Quigley? I imagine you’d have a lot in common.

  • Mick, the best way to get out of a tight spot is to act like you are not in one – what you have done by not explaining where the post went which was posted on one of your threads but apparently has disappeared since you are unwilling to say anything about it. Why do about 75% of my posts get through? You let them. Why not censor more? You know that I shall make a big deal about it on the RBB and possibly other sites.

    Matchmaker, you have no understanding of me. I couldn’t be more unlike this terrible Felix Quigley from what little I know about him, and I am totally opposed to learning anything more about him. He apparently is a wild supporter of Israel, sees anti-semitism wherever he looks, etc., ad nauseam – a real neocon. I am an unreconstructed socialist and American exile. If you want to learn more about me, consult the articles in the Trowbridge Archive at codshit.com

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    Trowbridge H Ford, It’s a scary time in the emergency room especially for your girl friend. Hope things go well.

    West Belfast Resident, I don’t see the republican movement being solely owned by sf. I see it as a movement of Irish the world over to have various goals achieved…that’s how I can say that the republican movement will win in the end….but right now the leadership of sf is heavily tarnished and the ultimate goals will be achieved but that doesn’t mean the sf leadership will be the ones to get us there.

  • Joe Faire

    Trow, Jack Holland wrote a book and met McIntyre after he died? Sounds great. Did Olaf Palme tell you after he was dead that it was Ingram who shot him?

  • west belfast resident

    Trowbridge, perhaps you are a little upset right now. This must be a very stressful time on you both. Perhaps a little break from the keyboard would not go amis. I am sure your girlfriend would appreciate some time spent with her. A lot of us experience difficulty posting, from time to time all our posts disappear into cyberspace lol. It’s nothing to get upset about. Just keep posting until it gets there, perseverance lol.

    kathy c.

    I can appreciate your world wide view. Thanks for pointing that out. Sometimes my view is a little insular. However, this penetration of SF has been extended world wide, via Donaldson and others. For example Scotland and the US have all experienced the push in a particular direction via Denis Donaldson.

    It’s hard to see a ‘win’ that is a UI any time soon. But I can appreciate your optimism.

  • Just want to report that another e-mail of mine has disappeared, with the false notice that I did not correctly type in the word.

    Thanks, Kathy, for your concern. I think it is nothing serious.

    Joe, you are most sick when dealing with the dead – whether they be a decent cop who is made out to say something he never came close to, a journalist who tried hard to tell his story completely and fairly, or a former Prime Minister who was cruelly assassinated by an Anglo-American conspiracy, and whose assassin is still at large.

    The dead don’t talk back to anyone. That’s what makes it so easy for people like you. McIntrye and Ingram.

  • Joe Faire

    Trow, I have to take your word on it given that you seem to hang out with dead people. Did you hear that Arafat is currently writing his autobiography?

  • Yoda

    Who would you expect to get hammered?

    Both obviously.

    Your post assumes only one wrongdoer; the other guilty party gets off with an understanding “but…”. That’s exactly the sort of thing I’m on about. It’s not like agent infiltration didn’t both affect the situation or get people killed. State murder is still murder: it’s not something I will simply give a pass to.

    Why would anyone fear SF destabilising or even imploding?

    My fear is that such destabilisation could remove the largest nationalist party from the political horizon. Who would be best served by that?

    What would happen during the fragmentation and eventual rebuilding? How long would that take? What would happen in the meantime? What if some fragments were violent?

    If the SDLP could fill the breach, then perhaps there would be no problem. But the SDLP at the moment doesn’t seem capable of doing so.

  • No, Joe, I don’t hang out with dead people, as today’s day amply demonstrated. My girlfriend seems much better and confident that her problem is fixable.

    You are the expert from the dead.

    But I can assure you that Arafat will not be writing any autobiography. Meir Dagan’s Mossad fixed him but good, and he is not going to utter a peep.

    Same as what Lt. Col. Oliver North, with the help of Maggie’s crazy people in London, arranged regarding statminister Olof Plame. He is not going to be writing any line about what their people did to him.

    Remember, dead people tell no tales.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    West Belfast Resident, There’s a win already that few realize is actually a win….Donaldson was outed and his influence hopefully has ended. It’s a start…the republican movement is much better with him gone and since I was on the receiving end of Donaldson’s plan…I knew there were big problems in SF and friends of sf….but now….so does tons of people realize it. It’s a start and I’m sure more will jump ship one way or the other…rats usually do.
    A day in politics can be long and things can change in an instant. Alot can happen in a day…and in a few months. The sf leadership has been politically wounded…and rightfully so….watch how it plays out….

  • Joe Faire

    Trow, how come Jack Holland was writing books long after getting killed in a helicopter crash?

  • Sparkie Bryson

    (Here’s hoping I beat the securocrats censor machine)

    Just wanted to register a hearty lol at some of the lunatics on this thread – very enjoyable reading.

    One question though – what’s the RBB? Anyone got the address? If it has more gems like this thread I want to read them.

    Yours, undercover,

    Sparkie Bryson

  • Joe Faire

    Sparky, no need to treat Trow like that. Every site has their loony laureate. For that he’ll accuse you of being Jack Holland back from the dead just to upset him and write articles proving him wrong. It’s all part of the Anglo-American conspiracy. Psst – it was behind Sharon’s stroke. But don’t tell Felix Quigley. He is competing for Trow’s title.

  • SB, the RBB is the Republican Bulletin Board – what many posters on this site, Martin Ingram, Pete, Belfast Bonzo, etc., use – so I am surprised that you have never heard of it, and no other posters have so replied.

    Despite what Joe Faire claims, I would be delighted in your posting articles which refute my claims. [REMOVED]

    Please let it all hang out, and include a job on Quigley while you’re at it!

  • For viewers intrigued by what I apparently wrote which Mick censored, I must say that I have no idea of what it might be as I can recall nothing more about what I posted. As far as I am concerned – though I hope to be proven wrong – it is just more manipulation of my messages by this site.

    Perhaps, Mick will reveal the terrible bit for us all to see or at least clean up what, it seems, I wrote so it can be viewed by its most proper viewers, and along with it my correction about Ian Phoenix dying in the helicopter crash at the Mull of Kintyre he eliminated when I tried to post it on this thread about McIntyre’s total disinformation about the RUC in Operation Furlong with the Belfast Provos.