Patrick: a very British saint?

Andrew over at A Tangled Web is not impressed with the upcoming celebrations in Belfast for St Patrick’s day, though he does confess that Patrick is his favourite British patron saint. Indeed, he’s still part of the architecture in the central lobby of Westminster, and remains integral to the British union flag.

  • Tai

    In my fortcoming book; “Revisionists revised – blowing away the big, big grand narratives” I posit the notion that St Patrick was the first securocrat, and that the beginning of the present conflict can be traced back to his arrival in Ireland.

  • Good, we needed someone else to blame 😉

  • Brian Boru

    Well its just one day unlike the months and months and 3500 Loyalist marches Catholics are forced to put up with. Such hypocrisy.

  • missfitz

    Brian
    WIthout wishing to be pedantic, the reality is that there are only about 200 contentious parades a year in NI. And half of these are the non-parade on the Garvaghy Road.

    It is true that about 3000 parades are notified to the Parades Commission each year, about 70% are noted as loyalist and 4% are nationalist. The rest are “other”!

    Parades are an emotive issue, without doubt, but a little context should always be employed

  • Bemused

    Really Mick – is ATW really worthy and/or suitable material for consideration/debate on Slugger? His article on Paddy’s day is nothing less than a BNP-style racist diatribe. Characterising all republicans as ‘half-wits’, ‘soap-dodgers’, ‘fenians’, tax-dodgers and ‘inferior beings’ is precisley the sort of outrageous, inflammatory tripe that has gotten Northern Ireland into the state it is in at the minute. I’m all for providing links to his ‘work’ in the context of a ‘ oh look, isn’t this amusing, let’s all laugh at the racist bigot’-type post, but to pretend that he is anything other than a buffoon is surely a mistake?

  • Bemused

    Says it all really – ATW is acceptable but the phrase “let’s all laugh at the racist big ot” is rendered “let’s all laugh at the racist #### !

  • Bemused,

    I’ve only banned five words on Slugger.

    Ironically, two of them were habitually used by Andrew when he was a regular poster here, and it finally earned him his red card from Slugger several years ago. They are almost universally used as terms of abuse to describe Republicans, and, just as importantly, are a reliable sign that the discussion is going down the ad hominem route.

    The other three are variations of the word you tried to use, and are almost exclusively used as terms of abuse against Unionists (singular, but more often plural), and were a similar indication of a lapse in standards.

    Your use of it proves the principle works.

    I’m sure people will draw their conclusions about Andrew’s writing and politics. But I linked to him because it was an interesting point of view rarely raised in the NI discourse. I don’t believe in refering to other people’s writing without also providing a link, since the audience is entitled to read the original and (as you have done) demur from my interpretation of the article/post.

    The response can be passionate, critical, hard hitting but it can’t be ad hominem. A point that seems to have missed some of our regular posters in recent weeks.

    I’ve always had a policy of drawing from as politically wide a spectrum as I can possibly find. In recent times, the focus of the news flows has afforded us little scope to give air to Unionist opinion.

    But there are two things I’ve insisted on since the beginning of serious discussion here on Slugger: one, there is no agreed consensus on any issue, everything is up for grabs; two, common civility is a pre-requiste for competitive debate.

  • Mustapha Mond

    No mention of untermenschen there, must be Bored.

  • Ireland has the best Catholics and the best Protestants in the whole goddamn world with nary a Christian amongst the lot of them.

    And it was St. Paddy that loosed it all amongst ya.

    Ireland has as much reason to celebrate St. Patrick as Native Americans have to celebrate Cortez.

    Bring back the snakes, I say!!

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    Interesting….”He (St. Patrick) still….remains integral to the British Union flag.”

    How true….now I’ve been advising Sinn Fein for years to work to get the Cross of St. Patrick out of the Union Flag….and they want no part of that fight….but I say….it’s time…the cross of St. Patrick come out of that union flag! Has no right to be their…..

  • headbangor

    Just remember St. Pat. always used dressed in Blue.

    all this green malarkey is a product of N. American, cultural imperialism.

  • Reader

    Kathy_C: How true….now I’ve been advising Sinn Fein for years to work to get the Cross of St. Patrick out of the Union Flag….and they want no part of that fight….but I say….it’s time…the cross of St. Patrick come out of that union flag! Has no right to be their…..
    Well, remember, Patrick was a Brit, and the UK contains a part of Ireland. Just two good reasons for the cross to be in the Union Flag. I know SF is working on one of them, but they have failed so far. And it would take a mighty act of revisionism for SF to say St Patrick wasn’t a Brit. I think SF are not quite ready for that.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    Reader, you don’t need revisionism…just the truth and history to get the Cross of St. Patrick out of the union flag.

    History-
    Act of Union 1800 merged the kingdom of Ireland and the kingdom of great britain to form the uk of great britain and Ireland.
    ergo the Cross of Saint Patrick in the union flag along with cross of St. George for england and Saint Andrew for scotland.

    northern Ireland was created by the government of Ireland Act in 1920…it was no longer the kingdom of Ireland. Then with all in Irish history from 1920 until 1949 when the south of Ireland became a republic and the President of Ireland as the Irish head of state took over ALL the functions previously held by the monarch of england. ERGO- the Republic of Ireland was a soveriegn state -even no longer in the british commonwealth.

    For the united kingdom of england and scotland to still have in it’s flag the cross of St. Patrick that was put in the flag to represent the kingdom of Ireland and the monarch’s authority over Ireland…it’s long since gone and it is an error to still keep the cross of St. Patrick in the union flag….as an Irish American….I want to see the claim that union flag has over Ireland removed once and for all.

    the uk no longer has the kingdom of Ireland….that it did in 1800 when the cross was put in….the Cross of St. Patrick belongs to Ireland…not to england and scotland and their monarch queen elizabeth.

  • Brian Boru

    And I don’t deny that St.Patrick was British. A Welshman in fact.

  • Brian Boru

    I think that although the red-saltire is supposed to have been used by some Irish rebels including the Nine Years War ones, that still, its incorporation into the Union Flag has turned most Irish Catholics off it big time. The Tricolor should be flown on St.Patrick’s parades whatever the Unionists say. The Unionists have no hesitation in flying the Union Flag thousands of times in Loyalist marches every year.

  • Reader

    Kathy_C
    Since, as you say, the Kingdom of Ireland no longer exists, then you have no claim on the flag. Especially since (which you didn’t mention) the Cross of St Patrick was probably a British imposition on Ireland in any case. You have your Tricolour for the 26 counties, we have our 6 county red hand flag, and we all share the Cross of St Patrick. Can’t you share? We can.

  • Ahem, “probably…”. Don’t you need to be a bit more specific than that to carry the point?

  • Reader

    Mick: Don’t you need to be a bit more specific than that to carry the point?
    I’m not convinced that it was entirely central to my main theme of sharing Saint Patrick and his Cross. But a quick google on Heraldry Saint Patrick delivers loads of pages saying the cross (actually, a Saltire) was a Norman import.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    Read, I don’t have the tri-color because I am not an Irish citizen….Ireland is not my country. I am a citizen of the United States. I’m Irish by blood.
    as for me sharing…I share very well indeed…but the issue of the cross of st. Patrick being in the Union flag has nothing to do with sharing.
    I will again say that Until the Republic of Ireland came into being on April 1, 1949 the monarach of england theoretically reigned Ireland as the King/Queen of Ireland hense the kingdom of Ireland being represented by the cross of St. Patrick in the union flag.
    Since the british monarch NO LONGER is the king/queen of Ireland and the Republic has the President as assuming all the authority that had been that of the monarch….the claim to the cross and the claim to the kingdom of Ireland no longer exist. The union flag has in it….the cross of St. Patrick for the kingdom of Ireland….it is time for it to go…actually it is longggggggggggggggg since time…..

  • GavBelfast

    Yo, Kathy, there’s a cotton-pickin wee (Six) flaw in your logic ….

    You dig?

  • EWI

    we have our 6 county red hand flag,

    Nine counties, not six.

    (JHC, just how many times do we have to do this for the inhabitants of “Ulster”?)

  • Reader

    EWI: Nine counties, not six.
    You are probably thinking about the 9 county Ulster flag used by the GAA and dissident republicans. It’s red on yellow, with the red hand. I was referring to the red on white flag used for Northern Ireland. It also contains a star and a crown. You can probably tell the difference from a long way away.
    EWI: just how many times do we have to do this for the inhabitants of “Ulster”?)
    The answer seems obvious. You’ll just keep on complaining until you open your eyes and look.