On the danger of a political vacuum

If ever there was a situation filled with uncertainty is Israel in the wake of Ariel Sharon’s major stroke. That he would win no popularity contests in Palestine is obvious from the slogans urging him on to his death. But there must be huge apprehension as to what is likely to fill his unique position in Israeli politics. Oliver Kamm sees a disaster looming.

  • Crasher

    Sharon was the best hope in Isreal of any level of peace and stability. His stature as a militarist gave him the credentials to take the brave step of ending Isreali involvement in Gaza. It is sad that Palastinians cannot see Sharon for the man he had become, rather than the man he was. Unfortunately, of course, the ordinary Palastinian people are manipulated by those of their own people who have an interest in perpetuating war and misery. I was in Bethlehem in 2001 and spoke to ordinary Palastinians – the prevailing views was that the intifada was no use to the Jew and no use to the Arab (Jerusalem was deserted of tourists). Ordinary people everywhere want to get on with their lives in peace but the war lords have another agenda. (The same lesson that should have been learnt in NI).

  • felix quigley

    The Intifada, ie the suicide bombing against Jews, no use to the Jew and no use to the Arabs, what a peculiar way to put it. No use to the Jew! Deadly, in every sense of the word, to the Jew!

    The Gaza withdrawal by Sharon has done huge damage and placed Israel in increasing peril. Not just Sharon was responsible though. The main responsibility lies with the US ruling elite who forced this on Israel.

    As for Sharon. I would say this new party was an opportunist fix from the start. Now it is finished in my opinion before it really gets started. Great!

    Sharon had become a complete enemy of the Jewish Homeland, so much so that the Blanket and other Israel haters in Ireland stopped calling him a war criminal and began to be quite friendly towards him. Reference also Boomerang, the book about his sons criminality, and its possible role in policy decisions.

    I hope Sharon makes a good recovery and that he spends the rest of his life happily at his ranch and among his family…happily in retirement from political life.

  • smcgiff

    ‘As for Sharon. I would say this new party was an opportunist fix from the start. Now it is finished in my opinion before it really gets started. Great! ‘

    An opinion poll today predicted the new party would win 1/3 of the seats even without Sharon as leader. Looks like the future of Israel will remain in good hands despite the expected loss of Sharon.

  • Biffo

    Felix

    “..Now it is finished in my opinion before it really gets started. Great..”

    I reckon this puts you some distance to the right, along with the Islamophobic Judeofascists.

    Well done, you old extremeist you!

  • warped

    The “Sharon – go to hell” posters held by a Palestinian kid were particularly disturbing. Nice parenting.

  • spartacus

    what a pathetic gaggle…no tears for the war criminal sharon please all you hyprocritical moralists. hell would be too good for him. ‘poor parenting’ would be exposing one’s children to the orchestrated elevation of sharon as a ‘man of peace’ on bbc, elsewhere.

  • smcgiff

    Unlike the ‘man of peace’ I suspect you’re likely to be spartacus?

  • Crasher

    Spartacus is obvious living in the past. Sharon was a soldier, yes, and a very effective one. Since its inception (by a UN mandate), Isreal has been forced to defend itself from continuous onslaught by its neighbours. It did not start the 1967 war by which it took control of the occupied terratories – but Sharon was willing to give them back – brave step for an Isreali prime minister to openly offer land for peace, especially unilaterally.

    I hope Spartacus will also use the “war criminal” tag for Isreals attackers. Article 59 of the Geneva Convention prohibits the deliberate targeting of civilians in any conflict. Indecriminate bus bombs are a war crime.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Spartacus: “what a pathetic gaggle…no tears for the war criminal sharon please all you hyprocritical moralists. hell would be too good for him. ‘poor parenting’ would be exposing one’s children to the orchestrated elevation of sharon as a ‘man of peace’ on bbc, elsewhere”

    Si vis pacem, para bellum, Spartacus. Sharon, who, frankly, gets a bum rap for Arab Christian on Arab Muslim violence, is, perhaps, the last of teh “big fellas” of Israel. If one traces his career, he has always moved toward what he believed secured Israel’s people, be it armed resistance against the Arab mob as a member of the Haganah to commanding armor in the Sinai against Egyptian divisions to surrendering the Gaza to the Palestinian authority to shorted Israel’s defensive lines.

    The irony is is that said surrender has, at this juncture, all the appearances of a dagger in the PA’s delusions of statehood. They are incapable of ruling and have demonstrated such. Sharon has given the world a fishbowl in which to gaze at the performance of a Palestinian state.

  • felix quigley

    Dread

    I basically agree with you. The object of the Palestinians has never ever been to set up a democratic state alongside Israel, but to eliminate Israel and the “Zionist entity”.

    This is seen in the constitutions or founding documents of both Fatah and Hamas.

    The problem with Kadima and with Labourists such as Peres is that they are based on the idea that if the Israelis are generous to the Palestinians then this will be reciprocated. This is a basic misunderstanding of the nature of the Palestinian movement.

    They have already had 3 chances of setting up their own state. In 1936 the Peel Commission, in 1948 following the UN Partion proposals and in 2000 when Barak offered them 95 per cent of the West Bank, all of Gaza and half of Jerusalem, all Judenfrei. On each occasion the Arabs went to war to end Israel.

    It is a sad reality but better to understand reality.

    I think now Israel has to fight tactically. Because of antisemitism in the West it remains isolated. Tactically in the next election Kadima and Labour must be defeated. This means in practice that Likud must make enough of a showing to be able to oppose more concessions to these Palestinian terrorists who will never be satisfied until Israel is obliterated.

    That means for us taking up the struggle to defend Israel in Ireland.

    On a strategic level Israel should take over the territories and offer full voting rights to Palestinians. There will be no right of return to Palestinian Arabs. They left of their own accord in 1948 in the course of their Arab genocidal war to finish the genocide of the Jews. The historical question we have to settle in Ireland is just what the real nature of that war was. Such is our educational system there is almost total ignorance about it, and lying myths such as Deir Yassin have been created for a purpose.

  • Crasher

    Felix

    unfortunately too few people in Ireland agree with you. They prefer the terrorist myths than the truth and despite avidly living the western (American) way of life, they stupidly side with the enemies of the freedom they enjoy.

  • Felix Quigley

    Crasher

    Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I can see that you are different from many, not all but many, on Slugger Otoole and have begun to question much of the lying propaganda put about by the Palestinians and Arabs.

    I have often asked myself why the Jews are so poor at defending themselves from these slanders.

    Deir Yassin was one of the biggest issues of all and the biggest lie against Jews as jews. You probably know the details but it took a long time for Israel to answer. The best reply has been fairly recently by ZOA.

    I include this paragraph here from that

    “In fact, Deir Yassin served as a center of weapons trafficking during the violent Palestinian Arab outbreaks in 1920; Deir Yassin residents had carried out violent attacks on the Jews of Givat Shaul in October 1928; and during the August 1929 Arab riots throughout Palestine, the villagers of Deir Yassin had again assaulted their Jewish neighbors in Givat Shaul as well as Jews in the Beit Hakerem neighborhood and the Montefiore Quarter.17 A Jewish fighter who was stationed in Givat Shaul to help defend the village against Arab attacks during the violence 1936 later recalled how we continually faced attempted forays into our homes from Deir Yassin. We dug out our ‘illegal’ weapons every night and waited, while the Jewish supplementary police [part of the British Mandate police force] repulsed the infiltrators again and again. Months later, we had a defense position in nearby Motza [and the commander] often asked my help to transport men to their night duties in Motza. Driving back and forth to Motza from Jerusalem, I spent many hours lying in roadside ditches after ambushes out of Deir Yassin.18 ”

    http://www.zoa.org/pubs/DeirYassin.htm

    One of the greatest purveyors of the lie was actually a Jew because this lie is all mixed up with the bloody vendetta conducted by the Jewish Council and the Jewish Establishment against the Revisionist Movement.

    That Revisionist movement in turn has been slandered lyingly by many of the Israel haters in Ireland and here on Slugger as being right wing, fascist, pro-Nazi even. The lies never end. But when in this case Jews lie about Jews for political gain then you do wonder how to go forward.

    As I see it Crasher, Jews are now in great danger of genocide. I do not take this Iranian President, following on from the Malaysian, and his threats as idle threats. Nuclear bombs, dirty bombs, I am no expert here, but the hatred of Jews is such that it is more than possible, I think likely.

    The tragedy is that in countries like Ireland the Left, really neoleft, is very very corrupt, lining up all the time with Islamofascism and never ever questioning the intent of the Palestinians, where Fatah say they intend to REPLACE Israel.

    You see such is the stupidity and ignorance of all members of the Irish Sinn Fein they have never really tried to make a study of anything. A few old bits and pieces from Irish history trotted out to serve their purposes. They are a great promoter of Jew hatred which IS the same as Israel hatred.

    Some time ago I remember them launching their Womens department. Crasher, have you ever heard of them, or the neoleft, exposing the role of women under Sharia Law, or for example heard any gays in Ireland pointing to the well known fact that Tel Aviv has become a place of sanctuary for Palestinian Arab gays. Why the silence on this. Surely there are gays who contribute here. Or take Nell McCafferty, I wonder has she written much about the role of Sharia and women, poor women, in these countries, or if not Nell, her friends?

    It all amounts in my book to a conspiracy at whatever level, which has the effect of setting the Jews up for a genocide, their latest.

    I am reminded of the role of this guy Jim from California who contributes here. When I raise the origins of the PLO and the role of the well known Arab Nazi he goes apoplectic and dismisses el Husseini as that Mufti guy. Jim or James, just another supporter of the fascist PLO in my book.

    The Jews are in great danger again and it is in no small part due to Sharon and Peres. Sharon was corrupt, see the book Boomerang, and he was the creature of the US, which is the biggest enemy there is of Israel. See articles on this by my friend Francisco Gil White on http://www.hirhome.com

    Crasher and others who seek the truth – we have to continue against big odds. Do not let slanderers like Jim put us off! The Palestinian movement is not for nothing, it has a purpose. Listen to Hamas and Al Aqsa, and that purpose of genocide becomes clear. I think the Jews are walking blindfolded again by corrupt leaders into another Holocaust.

  • Felix Quigley

    I hope to write some articles and put them on my website with an e-mail address so people can read this point of view. It is http://www.isill.blogspot.com though I am working on another site outside of Blogger which may be better. Blogger has deficiencies.

    Then maybe I can show a film in some locations in Ireland and win some new “converts to the truth” on this issue so we begin to waken the Irish people from their slumber on the new dangers of genocide.

    No reason why the lies should continue uncontested.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Felix: “The problem with Kadima and with Labourists such as Peres is that they are based on the idea that if the Israelis are generous to the Palestinians then this will be reciprocated. This is a basic misunderstanding of the nature of the Palestinian movement.”

    Here is where I disagree with you, Felix. I do not believe that Ariel Sharon and most of the Kadima leaders have any real illusions where the Palistinians are concerned. You can’t fight an enemy for that long and not come to know them. The surrender of Gaza had nothing to do with generousity and everything to do with shortening internal lines of defense, deconstructing exposed postions and shutting up the bleeding hearts of the West. By surrendering Gaza, a concrete example of Palestinian misrule was created, an example that, unlike reports of corruption and the comparison of Palestinian transcripts (English language speeches vs Arabic ones) could never accomplish. The short answer is that the Palestinians are a collection of gangs and bandits with varying facades of civility and, by surrendering Gaza, this could be revealed, along with their lack of vision and unwillingness to cooperate both internally among themselves and externally with Israel, private donors and others.

    I suspect that Sharon’s planned “generousity” was nothing more than a plan to create a defacto border and wait for the Palestinians to evolve from a metaphorical basket of crabs to a functioning society. Sharon was going to jettison those areas unnecessary or untenable, keep those areas deemed mandatory and then bunker up and ignore the Palestinians to the extent that they allow themselves to be ignored.

  • felix quigley

    Dread

    I agree with much of what you say and I applaud you. The issue is much deeper though and I am thinking of this website and its contributors.

    Ireland is now a very anti-Israel country, I maintain antisemitic. I maintain they are the same thing and so did Martin Luther King, the great American and black civil rights leader.

    Now this, what we have here, is not an Irish discussion on the issue. The question is why continue.

    Mick Fealty and his friends are fair people and they wish to have this most vital of all issues debated openly. This however is not a discussion and is not a debate.

    The Israel haters are absent from this debate. That means that they are refusing to come out into the open and debate what exactly the Palestinian movement is really about.

    I do know that there is a chap from California called Jim or James and he has continually sought to create a clique which operates on the basis of NON DISCUSSION of this issue.

    And from that point of view, why would they debate. They are in support of a movement which was founded by Nazi fascists, which in 1948 under the leadership of those nazis attempted to complete the Final Soplution. These Irish fascist Palestinian supporters, why would they wish the facts of history to come out in the open!

    Thus Mick Fealty is trapped by the fascist politics of a goodly number of his contributors.

    Meanwhile the website run by David Vance, A Tangled Web, continually covers this issue. But David is a Northern Ireland Protestant and Unionist. Tragically the situation is causing a sectarian divide in ther Irish public and that is not David’s fault.

    But there is no logical or historical reason for the Irish not to rally to the support of the Jews and to rally to prevent a new genocide, which I am convinced is being prepared.

    The other thing that has struck me in these discussions on Slugger is that the Jewish leaders in Ireland have decided not to take part. Not that I am aware of anyhow. And because of their absence I think their policies on every issue have to be looked at as well.

    Finally Dread you are simply wrong. Sharon it was who pursued the terrorist PLO into Lebanon and believe it or not had them totally beaten. Who rode to the rescue of the PLO and extricated them to Tunisia, and later from there into the heart of Israel? It was the US Government who did this. That was the beginning of the decline of Sharon. Dread, OSLO was predicated on Israeli establishment illusions in Arafat and the PLO. They paid dearly.

    Dread and Crasher…please have a look at the site of my friend Francisco Gil White and keep in touch with that site to follow our reasoning on the dangers of Jewish genocide in our days. It is http://www.hirhome.com

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Felix: “Finally Dread you are simply wrong. Sharon it was who pursued the terrorist PLO into Lebanon and believe it or not had them totally beaten. Who rode to the rescue of the PLO and extricated them to Tunisia, and later from there into the heart of Israel? It was the US Government who did this. That was the beginning of the decline of Sharon. Dread, OSLO was predicated on Israeli establishment illusions in Arafat and the PLO. They paid dearly.”

    Ah, but you are putting positions in my portfolio that aren’t mine, stated or otherwise. That said, let us examine your thesis.

    1) The PLO was not totally beaten in Lebanon — it is the nature of resistance movements not to be totally beaten. They were, however, rendered militarily impotent. That said, I think you will find that Europe more than the US brought about the PLO’s resurrection. However, I must concede that the hubris of at least one, if not several, American presidents, each wanting to “build a legacy,” willingly played “useful idiot” to the process.

    2) As I stated previously, Sharon has always moved for what he perceives as providing security. The closed fist is not always the most efficient method of doing so. As I said, I think that Gaza, in the long run and properly finessed, will be the monkey’s paw that undoes the Palestinians. Abbas’ impotence, Hamas’ thuggery, each adds their weight to the camel’s back. Alas, Sharon has not had 30 years to lead. We have had to deal with Barak’s weakness and Netanyahu’s lack of strategic vision just to name two. Ever the faithful soldier, he comes in behind to try and clean up the mess.

    If you follow Jane’s and other military periodicals, you would know that the Israelis and the US are developing any number of interesting devices, some capable of dealing with ballistic projectiles, such as mortar rounds and Qassim rockets. Denied the offense and incapable of defense, what will the Palistian’s option be?

  • felix quigley

    Again I am amazed that there are just the two of us in this discussion.

    Dread you wrote earlier

    “Here is where I disagree with you, Felix. I do not believe that Ariel Sharon and most of the Kadima leaders have any real illusions where the Palistinians are concerned. You can’t fight an enemy for that long and not come to know them. The surrender of Gaza had nothing to do with generousity and everything to do with shortening internal lines of defense, deconstructing exposed postions and shutting up the bleeding hearts of the West”

    I am not sure if you are actually following what is happening in Gaza. It has become a launching pad for missiles into Israel. That seems a very strange tactic of defence to me. The Israeli leaders do seem to have many illusions in Abbas etc. I can only go by what they say in public.

    The exposed position is now Israel itself.

    I think the question to answer in Ireland is what is the Palestinian movement and what is its intent.

    I believe that its intent lies within its constitution, of both Fatah and of Hamas.

    I think that everybody in Ireland who supports the Palestinians and supports a Palestinian state should address those founding constitutions.

    Is that being done? Well I would say that the Left and the Republicans hide this reality from Irish people. Again somebody can contradict me with evidence.

    The ordinary Irish person is willing to learn. But these facts about Hamas and Fatah and the true reality that Jews in Israel face are hidden. An example is the silence here of Sluggers usual so loquacious clients.

    There is some kind of conspiracy happening in Ireland that prevents the ordinary person understanding.

    Is there another country in the world that has been threatened with nuclear destruction. Can anybody name one.

    Yet that happened very recently tio Israel.

    And there is nearly total silence on this discussion.

    Dread have you read any articles in the Irish Left or the Irish republican movement saying what Israel might do to defend itself from this. And if they have not why not. Why is there not a campaign around the clock to defend Israel and the Jews who live there from this.

    Again the silence here tells a lot.

    And is this not a hatred of Israel in Ireland. And if in Ireland then is it not also in every European country as well. Does this not pose great dangers for Israel

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Felix: “I am not sure if you are actually following what is happening in Gaza. It has become a launching pad for missiles into Israel. That seems a very strange tactic of defence to me. The Israeli leaders do seem to have many illusions in Abbas etc. I can only go by what they say in public. ”

    Lesee, the Palistinians are lobbing crude, inaccurate missiles that have been known to blow up when dragged through town on a flatbed truck. You worry about tactics, I discuss strategy. Each of those missiles is a nail in the coffin of the two state solution. In a more social setting, its called “selling them rope.”

    Felix: “Dread have you read any articles in the Irish Left or the Irish republican movement saying what Israel might do to defend itself from this. And if they have not why not. Why is there not a campaign around the clock to defend Israel and the Jews who live there from this.”

    I know what Israel might do to defend itself. At its furthest extreme, I like to call it “Menachem and the Great Glass Parking-lot.”

  • Felix Quigley

    As far as the Jews are concerned there has been anti-Semitism and genocides in every century over about 2000 years.

    Many seem to argue that the danger to Jews ended with the State of Israel being set up. But is that true and are Jews in danger once again, or do people think that Israel is all powerful.

    Somehow the focus changed onto the Palestinian Arabs as victims some time after 1948, with 1956 and definitely after 1967.

    The issue of the Palestinian refugees was heavily promoted by many different quarters.

    What makes me despair is that I know that the history has been distorted and often there is no willingness to seek the truth about the various events, a case in point could be the Deir Yassin massacre myth, and then more recently the Jenin massacre myth and then the death of Muhammad el Dura and the role of French Television in that.

    It seems that the ordinary person can only hook onto very specific things. Their knowledge is very shallow because so many things compete in their lives and historical truth, well they don’t usually have time for that.

    The discussion in Ireland is not going well. David on ATW does his best. Mick runs the odd comment but this discussion here is most disappointing.

    I feel we need to focus on the most oppressed section in Ireland, to my mind that may be poor and oppressed women, oppressed from many different angles.