Shifting currents inside the Orange?

Eric Kaufmann is a sparky academic, who has been working on several related studies of contemporary Orangism over the last few years. This Prospect article takes a rather dark view of the changes inside Orangism. He is particularly pessimistic about the internal shift from restraint to the kind of wilder action that led to major confrontations with the police in the summer.

  • Kathy_C

    I read the entire article and have a slightly different take on the issue. The british gov’t is using the orange order as a tool against SF and republicans. It is the british gov’t through the parades commision that has a member of the orange order on it’s commission. The british gov’t wasn’t able to find it’s way out of the Gavahy road problem so….they put a commission together that will vote to allow the orange order to march down garvahy road…and then blair and the gov’t can state…it is a legal march approved by an independent commission. SF has been out maneuvered by this move. The orange feet will march down garvahy by the grand design of the british gov’t.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Your take on the article would make more sense if there was the slightest chance of that happening.

  • ukko

    “…traditional loyalist restraint”

    eh?!?

  • Brian Boru

    Orangeism is dark anyway to me. It is about raking up the past every year. If I was trapped on the wrong side of the border, I would resent such parades too, though I would try to tolerate them. But then it’s easy for me to talk, living in the free South, liberated from British repression.

  • Brian

    Statements like:

    “living in the free South, liberated from British repression”

    are not “about raking up the past”?

  • Brian Boru

    I didn’t start it.

  • Kathy_C

    I don’t know why people say these parades should be tolerated…I think they are hate parades and are akin to the KKK marching down harlem. And if the orange order feels they should march to celebrate a military victory…then why don’t they march by the queen they love so much….
    The US doesn’t march through the streets of england to celebrate our victory of the brits on July 4th….the orange order shouldn’t be allowed to march in Irish neighborhoods to celebretate their victory…it’s just not right.

  • oceallaigh

    Over 3000 parades every year costing the taxpayers
    (half of which are Catholic and don`t want these hateful demonstrations ) millions on security and clean up. Over the summer months these parades and bonfires take place involving murder , mayhem social chaos and major disorder(remember the Quinn children ),looks like an excuse for a drunken violent orgy to me all in the name of “culture” .There is no other society that would put up with it let alone finance their bonfires which cause tremendous environmental damage as thousands of tires are burned in heavily populated areas at times containing effigies of Catholics killed by protestant paramilitary groups .Blood and Thunder bands in paramilitary regalia strutting like the young fascists that they are ,with banners commerorating sectarian killers .So much for the Glorious Revolution of freedom and equality for all .The really sad part of this is that the so called educated elements of the unionist society who should know better are a part of this so called Christian organisation including high ranking policemen ,top business people,bishops ,academics and politicians including the Nobel Peace Prize winner David Trimble ,remember him dancing down the Garvagy Road doing a jig with Paisley celebrating one over the local Catholics as they were hemmed into their homes as this dysfunctional horde passed by chanting and playing their sick sectarian tunes .And to think Belfast Council is serious about making this a draw for tourists ,maybe Derry should re-enact the Rosville Street riots and the Battle of the Bogside too ,it really makes my head spin .As one Scot once said “If only God would give us the gift to see us as others do “or words to that affect .

  • Kathy_C

    Oceallaigh……Good for you! You spoke to the very issue of these parades.

    To me…the marches should be made illegal because they are marches of hate…and hate like that is illegal in the EU. THe nazi’s can’t promote things on the internet…but the orange order can? I don’t see the difference between the two.

  • james orr

    Is the root of this problem:

    a) Orange parades in areas which have become nationalist
    b) Orange parades which have paramilitary hangers-on
    c) Orange parades anywhere ( NI / ROI / Scotland / England / USA etc )
    d) the existence of a British community in Northern Ireland
    e) the existence of a Protestant community in Ireland
    f) Brits in general
    g) Protestants in general

    KathyC – if you know of any Nazi or KKK groups who admitted large numbers of black Africans to their ranks I would be very interested to find out more.

    J

  • Kathy_C

    James,
    The root of the problem is:
    ORANGE PARADES!!!!! ANYWHERE…ANY TIME>>>>

    I have no problem with a british community in the north of Ireland…I do have a problem with the british crown gov’t ruling in the north of Ireland. THe queen’s gov’t should be in england…but not in the north of Ireland.

    I don’t understand what you’re getting at about Black Americans?

  • Comrade Stalin

    james orr:

    You forgot to add a “people are too up themselves to live and let live”. To me this is a matter of free speech and assembly, concepts which people in this country have a generally bad grasp of.

    I would say the same thing if we were talking about hunger strike marches down the Shankill.

  • James Campbell

    If the need to march is an integral part of protestant culture why not have an orange march every saturday on the Shankill Road. It could start, say, at 12pm at Woodvale Park and walk up and down the Shankill Road until it got dark. Nobody would be offended and the cultural rights of the protestant population of Northern Ireland would be enhanced.
    Other highlights on the day could be workshops on various vital aspects of Protestant culture like the Ulster-Scots language or where to get a good chinese take-away.

  • james orr

    Enlightening.

    KathyC – the Nazis and KKK were/are racist organisations. The Orange Order is not. Proof of this can be seen in West Africa in particular where there are many Orange lodges, and in Orange parades in England where many Black protestants are welcome and enhusiastic members. As Northern Ireland slowly becomes more multi-cultural more and more Asian people can be seen walking on the 12th, even in rural districts.

    I think you’ll find that the greater majority of people in Northern Ireland are very happy being British and part of the United Kingdom.

    CS – you reference to “a people” sounds like you’re demonising the whole Protestant/British community. AIUI demographic changes have been a major cause of the more recent issue around Orange parades. I don’t think there have been any “new” parades through nationalist areas, but rather historic parades along routes which now have a nationalist community living nearby which wasn’t there in the past. Drumcree is a perfect example of this. I am open to being corrected on this. And of course, the well-acknowledged SF/IRA strategy of exploiting Orange parades.

    JC – at least you’re being creative.

  • Betty Boo

    So should you, James.

  • Realist

    Kathy C,

    Will you be lobbying to have the Orange removed from the flag of your country?

    Will you be demanding that Irish citizens who are members of the Orange Order be arrested?

    oceallaigh,

    The Rev Ian Paisley is many things, but he is not, and never has been, a member of the Orange Institution.

  • darth rumsfeld

    The Rev Ian Paisley is many things, but he is not, and never has been, a member of the Orange Institution.

    Posted by Realist on Dec 22, 2005 @ 09:48 AM

    ..er well actually he was an Orangeman until about 1960, but left because the OO wouldn’t recognise his church .

    Now there is an internet law called Godwin’s law, which- as we all know by now- invalidates the argument of any blogger who is reduced to making comparisons with the Nazis.

    I think its about time we had another law relating to any comparison between the Orange Institution and the KKK.
    Now, of course the small minded bigots who don’t bother to open their minds enough to study one of the largest folk cultures in Ireland won’t accept the obvious inaccuracy of the comparison with the Klan, so we can’t expect them to accept that their puerile jibes are to be discarded from our debates.

    So let’s just leave it that any blogger who feels compelled to trot out the cliche- or who feels incapable of discussing Orangeism or indeed any expression of Irish culture in terms best summarised as “Themmuns should express themselves in the way usuns tell them” -James Campbell, for example- shall henceforth be a recipient of the Culturally Uninformed Nationalistically Triumphalist award- though he/she would be well advised not to use the abbreviated form of the award-even if others may so address him/her

  • Biffo

    The Nazi comparison is interesting.

    The Orange Order celebrates the williamite settlement which ushered in an era of religious persecution and discrimination unprecedented in our island’s history.

    If the Nazi’s had won, I have no doubt that they would be celebrating their victory over the Jews in similar fashion.

  • Realist

    “..er well actually he was an Orangeman until about 1960, but left because the OO wouldn’t recognise his church”

    I stand corrected DR…I had always believed that the only Loyal Order that he had ever been a member of was the ABOD. That is certainly the case in more recent times.

  • james orr

    Betty Boo:
    Just askin questions.

    FWIW I don’t think the Orange should walk where there is vociferous nationalist opposition. It provides a focal point for the paramilitaries to come onto the streets. It’s a major own goal for the Orange, and the behaviour of some of their spokespersons (esp after Whiterock) is hampering the growth of the organisation.

    There are many thousands of potential members who are absolutely 100% on the theology and cultural history, but who are 100% opposed to the thuggery of the highly-publicised few who give the Order a bad name.

    That said, the crowds at the 12th are visibly bigger each year, with far less booze in the field nowadays than when I was a nipper. Some vision, strategy and leadership would transform the Orange.

  • Biffo

    James Orr

    “There are many thousands of potential members who are absolutely 100% on the theology and cultural history”

    There are many thousands who, quite understandably, dislike the Orange precisely because of the cultural history.

    Maybe it’s time for the Orange to acknowledge the nature of the shameful events they celebrate.

  • “I don’t know why people say these parades should be tolerated…I think they are hate parades and are akin to the KKK marching down harlem.”

    “To me…the marches should be made illegal because they are marches of hate…and hate like that is illegal in the EU. THe nazi’s can’t promote things on the internet…but the orange order can? I don’t see the difference between the two.”

    You have made many strong statements Kathy, just out of interest, have you ever actually been to see an orange parade?

  • Betty Boo

    James,
    To point I was trying to make is, that to most foreigners and newcomers the Orange Order and similar organisation do look like a bunch of lunatics or at best something forgotten by time, walking up and down some roads no one has ever heard of and declaring this to be their culture. And that’s all you get to see of it. So one might be forgiven for being rather oblivious to the fact that there is more.
    I only found out about it, because I finally made my way to Slugger and Fair Deal explained the behind the scenes of the Orange Order. (Where is he by the way?)
    But how many, world wide, actually get there? What they get is what the see in the media.
    So, a little creativity wouldn’t go a miss and I don’t mean the use of swords.
    Show us your culture.

  • james orr

    Biffo,
    “Shameful events”?

    Betty Boo: I’m broadly with you – it’s not naturally my culture either

  • Biffo

    James Orr

    “Shameful events”?

    Battle of the Boyne, Williamite settlement, Penal Laws??!!

    Have I missed something?

  • CS,’I would say the same thing if we were talking about hunger strike marches down the Shankill’

    This is the fundamental point. Republicanism, whatever you think of its current leaders, aims to unite the people of Ireland, which is why Republicans don’t march down the Shankill as the current climate would make it a divisive statement.
    The Orange Order with its rules on inter-marriage and membership obviously seek to keep the people of Ireland divided and to promote a creed of Protestant supremacy which is why it MUST be seen in areas with majority Catholic make-up.
    Why can’t the OO march in areas where the local populace are enthusiastic about it or hire out Croke park and march round and round all day?
    Parity of esteem here would include Republicans marching on the Shankill with tricolours and banners of Bobby Sands or indeed the Catholic supremacy of the AOH doing the same but with banners commemorating Benburb, St.Bartholomews massacre and fcuk the Paisley bands. If that seems like a sensible society to the defenders of free assembly then it is worrying.
    Maybe the only way for OO supporters to realise the affront that many of their marches causes is for rebel marches in loyalist areas but i wouldn’t want this to happen.
    Modified OO marches are tolerated in the 26 counties but this is after a long period of peace and stability, maybe the northern brethren would be wise to pull back from certain areas until the social-political climate makes it more ameniable.

  • james orr

    Biffo:
    A 12 minute skirmish in Ireland which was part of a much wider European conflict.

    Williamite Settlement – do you object to parliamentary democracy and trial by jury (ok, the Bank of England was a disaster)

    Penal Laws – perhaps you forget that Presbyterians were as much on the receiving end of these as Catholics were? And perhaps you forget that much of what came before was much, much worse?

  • Brian Boru

    “Is the root of this problem:

    a) Orange parades in areas which have become nationalist
    b) Orange parades which have paramilitary hangers-on
    c) Orange parades anywhere ( NI / ROI / Scotland / England / USA etc )
    d) the existence of a British community in Northern Ireland
    e) the existence of a Protestant community in Ireland
    f) Brits in general
    g) Protestants in general

    The problem has nothing to do with your “existence”. These marches related specifically to Protestant victories over Catholics. That is why Catholics find them offensive. Also, the Catholics of Ireland, north and south, associate the Battle of the Boyne with the Penal Laws, and this doubles the offense caused. Further offense – of a particularly grave kind – is involved when Oliver Cromwell banners are brought to the parade. I live in Wexford town where Cromwell massacred 700 men, women and children in the Bull Ring. In Drogheda, he also let loose his dogs on helpless civilians including children. Tens of thousands of Irish Catholics were shipped to the West Indies as slaves – hence so many Irish names there. In all, it is estimated that up to 400,000 Irish Catholics were killed or sold into slavery by this dreadful wretch, and to this day, Cromwell is probably the most hated figure in Catholic Ireland. As most Protestants were not on the receiving end of this, they should inform themselves on this and stop bringing Cromwell on the march with them through Catholic areas. It’s simple courtesy.

    The paramilitary hangers-on is a definite incitement and must stop. I fail to see what paramilitaries have to do with “Protestant culture”.

    Orange marches have recently begun to pick up in numbers in the Republic. Of course the annual parade at Rossnowlagh has gone on for years now but recently, the Royal Black Preceptory also announced a march in Donegal. Why are these marches free of trouble? I suppose we are not really resentful of them going on down here because we are already independent of Britain, and as such, don’t feel that parallels are being drawn with present constitutional arrangements. Also, we don’t have the sectarian problems in community relations in the South because Southern Protestants are quite happy at this stage being in the Irish state. I suppose also there was never going to be – given the demographics of the Southern state even at its inception – a risk of former Southern Unionists taking the South back into the Union. The Unionists in the North, however, insisted on taking Catholic Fermanagh and Tyrone into the Northern statelet, and in doing so, created instability for themselves as their minority was much bigger. A border in more strict alignment with the wishes of the local populace might have produced a more stable NI.

    We don’t mind the “existence of a British community in Northern Ireland”. I have nothing against Britain, though I have bones to pick with many of their historical figures and some of their politicians in NI. However I think should be capable of a peaceful coexistence on this island. And I am certainly not “against Protestants in general”. There are around 6,000 Protestants in Co.Wexford and they don’t cause me any trouble. In fact, I can now understand why Protestantism came about in Europe 500 years ago, given the corruption in the Catholic church.

  • Biffo

    james orr

    “Parliamentry democracy” evolved 130+ years after the Williamite settlement and after many later struggles.

    “Trial by jury”? Could a catholic get a fair trial in 1691?

    “perhaps you forget that Presbyterians were as much on the receiving end of these as Catholics..”

    No, presbyterians, while excluded from the protestant ascendancy, were penalised to absolutely nothing like the extent that catholics were.

    Today many presbyterians celebrate the events surrounding the Battle of the Boyne. If they had suffered in the same way as catholics under the williamite settlement their current celebration would be perverse.

    “perhaps you forget that much of what came before was much, much worse?”

    What exactly are you talking about? 1690 was the conclusion to more than a century of trauma. The conclusion was that wholesale religious discrimination was put on the statute book.

  • james orr

    Biffo,
    Im off to do some Christmas shopping. Hope you have a good ‘un.

    Brian Boru
    Thanks for that

  • Nationalist

    If the Orange Order is so “Multi-cultural” and tolerant of others then could James Orr please explain why the Orange Order members from the Republic of Ireland are not permitted by the Orange Order to parade behind the flag of their country in the same way as the other “Foriegn” Orange Order members taking part in their parades in Northern Ireland?

    It would seem clear that this is a statement from a POLITICAL Organisation and not one that a Religious Organisation could justify.

  • Biffo

    james orr

    “have a good ‘un.”

    you too

  • Cahal

    People often use the existence of African lodges to portray the OO in a better light. I think they are missing the point.

    If the OO were a purely Protestant/cultural organization like they are in Africa, that would be fine.

    In places like Donegal there is a genuine belief that the people marching are doing so out of a positive religious motivation.

    But aren’t they more of an extreme right wing pro-British Unionist sectarian anti-Catholic political organization? As evidenced by the connections with loyalist terrorists being glorified, those awful bands (kick the pope bands), involvement in politics,etc.

    That is my experience, the general perception, and perhaps it is the reality too.

  • Jmaes Campbell

    The concept that multiculturalism is a progressive
    philosophy and, therefore, that all aspects of a nations/peoples culture must be accepted without an objective standard of morality is demonstrably
    false.
    Merely to claim a cultural right does not confer moral legitimacy on that cultural practice.

    Many West African societies practice female circumcision – a barbaric act of cruelty which is rightly condemned by any right thinking moralist.
    For those societies to claim that “it is part of their heritage and , therefore, a cultural right”
    makes nonsense of the concept of objective civilised morality.
    Similarly for protestants to claim that “dressing up in bowler hats and and marching behind UVF and UDA flags through catholic areas is a cultural right” is exactly similar to claims made by KKK that ‘dressing up in white hoods and marching through coloured neighbourhoods is a cultural right”
    In a civilised democracy it is possible , indeed vital, that some ‘cultural rights’ are denied on the basis that they are beyond the norms of human decency.

  • billy

    Did the ARA not confiscate the assets of a well known Orangeman with paramilitary connections yesterday.

    The man has a number of criminal convictions including arms offences.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi…,

    James Orr-the oo may allow blacks but they don’t allow white Catholic’s.

    Rebecca, I’ve seen the parades and the results of the parades on the news. There are a few that stand out…the one that was after the little Catholic Quinn boys were burnt to death and the one in 97. I remember the look in people’s eyes…never will forget it.

    Realist…lobby the orange out of a flag…I’m busy lobbing for the Cross of St. Patrick out of the british union jack…it shouldn’t be there. It was put in to show Ireland was part of the uk…..it’s not anymore and they should take it out….

    back to the oo…..one of it’s function and reason for being is to:
    oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome…resist the ascendancy of the Catholic Church…and can only be a member if he has NEVER been connectedd with the Church of Rome and if married…the wife isn’t Catholic but must be a protestant.
    So, take away the ‘historical’ concept of the order and we have….a bunch of protestant men who as a qualification of being an orangeman…oppose the Catholic Church (and ergo Catholics) and fight for their right to march down the neighborhoods of the people they have vowed to oppose. Seems like all the markings of a hate group to me….

  • darth rumsfeld

    If the Orange Order is so “Multi-cultural” and tolerant of others then could James Orr please explain why the Orange Order members from the Republic of Ireland are not permitted by the Orange Order to parade behind the flag of their country in the same way as the other “Foriegn” Orange Order members taking part in their parades in Northern Ireland?

    simple answer to a juvenile point really:
    1 They could if they wanted
    2 They don’t want to
    3 They don’t want to because they don’t see it as their flag
    4 They don’t see it as their flag because of what the people who stood under that flag did to them and their communities in 1919-21 and the more recent IRA campaigns
    5(The whataboutery bit) How many Union Flags are carried on St Patrick’s day parades

    It would seem clear that this is a statement from a POLITICAL Organisation and not one that a Religious Organisation could justify.

    Doh! Orangemen support the Glorious Revolution -a political event; commemorate the Battle of the Boyne- a political event; and venerate King William the Third- a politician.
    Does that make every Orangeman in the republic a potential revolutionary? technically yes, though their support for these ideals is peaceful, and obviously aspirational, in the way vegetarians hope we’ll adopt their lifrstyle. Incidentally, it should also make every Orangeman a potential revolutionary in britian too, as the Bilkl of Rights/Claim of Rights has been progresively watered down by successive governments

    Now why not address the actual revolutionaries in your society, with goodness knows how many guns kept back “just in case” or ” for the next time”, instead of trotting out debating points that would make a hysterical child at nursery school cringe with embarassment

    – oh, and Happy Christmas

  • Nathan

    “If the Orange Order is so “Multi-cultural” and tolerant of others then could James Orr please explain why the Orange Order members from the Republic of Ireland are not permitted by the Orange Order to parade behind the flag of their country in the same way as the other “Foriegn” Orange Order members taking part in their parades in Northern Ireland?”

    What a load of cobblers.

    OO Lodges in the south are permitted to flag behind the Irish flag.

    In 1998, the OO Lodge in Dublin agreed that if they ever get chance to march in the future, it will be headed by an Irish Tricolour, rather than the Union Flag or any loyalist emblems. Source – Chris Parkin, Press Association News July 22, 1998

  • Nathan

    3 They don’t want to because they don’t see it as their flag
    4 They don’t see it as their flag because of what the people who stood under that flag did to them and their communities in 1919-21 and the more recent IRA campaigns

    The OO Lodges in the south have their own appointed spokespersons.

    I refer you to my 12.14 comment.

  • Ian

    nathan, I think you misunderstood ‘nationalist’s point. I think he was saying that lodges from the south are invited to march alongside their northern brethren IN THE NORTH, as well as lodges from Canada, Africa, etc. But whilst a Ghanan lodge can march through Belfast behind the Ghanan flag, for example, a RoI lodge can’t march through Belfast behind the Tricolour. At least I think that’s that he was saying.

  • Michael Shilliday

    James Orr-the oo may allow blacks but they don’t allow white Catholic’s.

    Rebecca, I’ve seen the parades and the results of the parades on the news. There are a few that stand out…the one that was after the little Catholic Quinn boys were burnt to death and the one in 97. I remember the look in people’s eyes…never will forget it.

    You Kathy, are why Americans shouldn’t comment on things they know nothing about. Does the Catholic Church allow white Protestants? The Orange Institution is a Protestant group!! Why should it acept Catholics any more than a Jewish group should?

    You’ll never forget the look in peoples eyes – that you saw on television. Well aren’t we lucky to have your concern. Your ill informed and daft views of the Institution are an insult to the vast majority of its members. If you’d ever met my Grandfather for example, you’d know that.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi Michael, I didn’t have to live during the holocust to know that the hatred spewed by the nazi’s was wrong. I don’t have to live in the north of Ireland to see that the oo is an organization that has as one of it’s precepts the oppposition to the Catholic church. (see the qualifications and the requirements for entry into the orange order).
    As for marching….the orange order marches through neighborhoods that has living within it’s streets those people (Catholic) whom the order opposes.
    Now I find it rather strange that a member of the orange order is told not to go to a Catholic Mass (even as a guest at a wedding or funeral) yet they want to march in the neighbor where the Catholics live…rather twisted logic. Sorta like…”I can’t sit with you in your church because …but I fight for the right to march in your streets”. Another irony…there are those who feel Catholics head of their church (the Pope) is the antiChrist. So why on earth would they (the oo) fight to march into the streets where they feel the people belong to the church that has the antichrist as it’s head. Strange indeed.

    Anyway….HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!

  • James Campbell

    Literature is culture.
    Music is culture.
    Poetry is culture.
    Art is culture.
    Calling dressing up in bowler hats and marching through catholic neighbourhoods behind paramilitary bands culture is a joke.

  • James

    so you are in charge of the culture rules?

    neighbourhoods belong to all of us. “Paramilitary” bands are a problem but not widespread. I don’t actually remember seeing any at any Orange parade I have ever been at.

  • James Campbell

    When the KKK don white robes and hoods and march through Jewish and Coloured neighbourhoods brandishing flaming torches is that an expression of cultural identity or is it an expression of tribal hatred.

  • It might be both. I don’t know anything about the KKK and it’s “recruitment pool”.

    I challange the notion that marches are not a valid expression of culture. Of course I realise that you are trying to say that the the raison d’etre of the OO and it’s parades are about tribal hatred. That too I challange. When I attend OO parades I am not thinking of any other tribe. I’m much too self obsessed to go that far out of my way with the prime purpose of annoying anyone. I am focused on my own enjoyment

  • Jimmy P

    The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation which was established in order to promote the interests of Unionists at the expense of the Nationalist population. The Orange Order seems intent on marching through Nationalist areas – a deliberate attempt to intimidate residents of these areas & show Nationalists throughout the North that Unionism is the dominant political force.

  • James Campbell

    I fully accept that some OO marchers only see their marching as an expression of their cultural identity. However merely claiming a right as ‘cultural’does not confer a duty on society to accommodate that right. Some west africian tribes see and practice female circumcision as a cultural right.However that does not oblige a civilised society to confer the status of acceptance on such a barbaric act. Similarly just because the OO deem dressing up and marching through catholic areas as a cultural right does not oblige a civilised society to accommodate such an uncivilised (and unneighbourly) practice.
    I am also at a loss to understand how such a practice could provide ‘enjoyment’.
    However I am at a loss to

  • darth rumsfeld

    of course music, pageantry, male bonding, rites of passage etc are typical of virtually every culture in every civilisation in the world- hence Orangeism as it presently exists. But James just prefers to comnpare us to another culture which he regards as “barbaric”- Hmmm, just a smidgeon of racism there methinks

    Where James chooses to misinterpret Orangeism is in his deliberately inaccurate statement-“because the OO deem dressing up and marching through catholic areas as a cultural right”. If that were so Orangemen would be bussed into Forkhill Crossmaglen, Dungiven, Gulladuff, Carrickmore, Creggan etc.
    As he well knows, parades take place in areas in which local Orangemen have usually resided. If the demographics of an area have changed, there may be more intolerant people like James who don’t want a Jaffa about the place, but most people show the same indiference as Protestants do when there happens to be a Gaelic match in “their” areas.
    If James wants my culture banned why not come out and say so? If that is too close to totalitarianism, then he might limit himself to promotong apartheid and suggest how we define those areas which are off limits.

    Is it a town, a D.E.A., a street,a townland which is the unit of measurement for the “host” community? How are the views of that community to be ascertained? By a vote- or self appointed community groups with SF/IRA approved spokesmen as hitherto? How many of the people must vote for a valid result, and what winning post -50%/66%/99%?.

    And does this cultural apartheid- which many on both sides will seize upon with glee by the way- also apply to the GAA, the Boys Brigade, the IRFU, the AOH,the St patrick’s Day parade? Tough choices when you think about it- probably safer to just ban the lot of us and to Hell with the optics-sure it’s all they deserve

  • James Campbell

    Music – Kick the Pope bands.
    Pagentry – Setting fire to effigies of political and religious opponents.
    Male bonding – surely some mistake here (ed.)

    Although I do not see the tribal rituals of the OO as cultural, I am quite happy to see the rituals practiced and I certainly do not want them banned. In fact in a previous posting I suggested that the OO hold their tribal marches EVERY saturday on the Shankill road. The march could start at the Woodvale Park and they could march up and down the Shankill for as long as they wish. I further propose that weekly marches take place in EVERY protestant area in Northern Ireland. I suspect however that such a proposal would not be acceptable to the OO as none of the marches would pass through catholic areas. The sole reason for the existance of the OO is the celebration of protestant supremacy over their catholic neighbours. What would be the point of marching if you can’t march through catholic areas.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    Bertie, you had me smiling when I read that when you are at the parades you are focused only on your own enjoyment…and it made me think how the romans were at the colosseum for their enjoyment as well…however the Catholics who were being killed didn’t find it that enjoyable.

    Darth, Do you agree with the requirements for entry of the orange order that has as one of it’s precepts…..that an orangeman should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome and scrupulously avaoid countenancing any act of ceremony of Popish worship?

    James, I have agreed with most of what you have said except the fact that you don’t want the rituals of the orange order banned. I for one want them not only banned but made illegal as an expression of hate…

  • oceallaigh

    If the organisers of the contentious Orange parades i.e those passing by or going through Nationalist areas had to post a peace bond or were actually liable for security financially in regards PSNI overtime pay you would probably see those parades being phased out by the order itself.The Orange Order might see it as their cultural right to march anywhere where they had a history but they should not expect the whole population to foot the bill .Local businesses like those in Derry should be able to sue for loss of business and the local councils should hold the organisers liable for any damage and disruption .Last year we saw Orange leaders calling people onto the streets to demonstrate which caused millions of pounds in damage and loss of business and wages as well as personal injury all over the north,they should be held accountable for their actions .

  • Kathy

    I must say that I didn’t see much killing in the parades.

    The only RCs that I remember were those making a fortune selling flags, crips and knick-knacks in vans at the side of the road and good luck to them.

  • Mustapha Mond

    Could someone tell me number of Roman Catholics and the number of Protestants in Williams army?
    And if possible the same for James’s army.

    Just to clear up in my own mind if it was a protestant victory over catholics, or a protestant & catholic victory over some other catholics.

  • MM
    even more complicated, it was a Prod and RC, (with prayers from the Pope) victory over some other Pords and RCs.

  • James Campbell

    The facts of the Williamite victory at the Boyne are certainly not relevent to the OO symbolic myth of the protestant supremacy celebration of the event.
    I have always felt sorry for working class members of the OO for buying into this myth of protestant supremacy. In the 50’s and 60’s I watched them leave their hovels of houses in Sandy Row and East Belfast as they marched in triumph passed the hovels of their catholic working class neighbours.
    With great pride they sang:
    “We are,we are, we are the Billy boys. We are, we are, we are the Billy boys. We’re up to our necks in fenian blood”.
    How could a society like the OO be so sick as to want to wallow in the blood of their catholic neighbours beggars belief. What values did such wanton desire for blood lust inspire their in their sons as they male bonded with them.
    In spite of this I still would not wish to deprive OO members from expressing such blood lust if they see this behaviour as a legitmate expression of their cultural identity. All I ask is that they do not flaunt this cultural depravity within catholic areas.

  • James

    I don’t know how many orangemen you know but to my best recollection I have never heard the Billy Boys sung. It is not something I could stomach.

  • darth rumsfeld

    well james you are obviously of a certain vintage, and so you’re unlikely to open your mind now, but here goes-

    “Kick the Pope” bands may not be Mozart, but they are culture none the less, in the same way as many people call the Sex Pistols a racket others call them a major influence on popular music-and as you well know there are many pipe bands, silver bands ( including-all Ireland champions-shome mishtake shurely?), accordion bands. You might prefer Mantovani- he makes me retch, but I wouldn’t seek to ban his schmaltz- cos I don’t prescribe limits on culture

    Pageantry- the wonderful folk art of banners recognised by serious anthropologists as a legitimate cultural expression.
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Orange Order doesn’t hold bonfires- that is an activity which people spontaneously undertake in local areas, with varying degrees of success. Some are eminently respectable; some are a drunken disgrace. I haven’t been to one for years, because most Orangemen are too busy with preparations for the 12th.

    “What would be the point of marching if you can’t march through catholic areas.”
    Hmmm- so the vast majority of Orangemen are clearly deluded when they don’t leave in a “catholic” area. I repeat my studiously ignored point of yesterday-Tell us James, just how we know when we have passed into one of these bantustans? What religion is Bradbury Place, for instance?

    “In the 50’s and 60’s I watched them leave their hovels of houses in Sandy Row and East Belfast as they marched in triumph passed the hovels of their catholic working class neighbours.”

    Er, again purely for accuracy, how did you see them in two different parts of the city- with a telescope? Or did you hop in your Austin 7 and drive round town to be offended, in a precursor of the non-resident members of “residents’ groups”? Orangemen have many talents, but mass choral singing is not one of them-perhaps you saw some ordinary members of the lumpen Prod community you so obviously despise. And what precisely is the relevance of an anecdote of some 50 years’ vintage to 2006?

    Don’t let the last sentence of your post @12.12 fool yourself into thinking you’re a liberal tolerant sort of guy. The EXACT parallel of that comment would be for me to say that I do not wish to deprive Roman Catholics from their faux-celtic thuggery dressed up as Gaelic games, so long as they don’t inflict them on nice Protestant areas where “their sort isn’t wanted”. And that, my friend , is no sort of tolerance at all

  • James Campbell

    I do prescribe limits on culture, as does any civilised society. Just because an organisation or tribe calls a certain practice culture does not mean that a society must grant that practice cultural expression.
    There is a drug culture in NI that destroys many lives.
    The KKK maintains that dressing up in white robes and hoods and marching through Jewish neighbourhoods is a cultural right.
    Certain west africian tribes maintain that female circumcision is a cultural right.
    The OO maintain that dressing up in bowler hats and marching through catholic areas is a cultural right.
    Civilised societies and more importantly civilised governments rightly precribe such activities and afford them no tolerance.
    The reason that my suggestion of a weekly OO march up and down the Shankill Road is not addressd is because such a march would not fulfill one of the main ( and maybe sole ) criteria for an OO march – flaunting their supremacy over their catholic ‘friends’.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    Bertie, how did you know those merchants were RC? just real curious. And I was referring to enjoyment at the expense of someone else’s misery. As for murder….the quinn boys come to mind…their deaths were associated with the parades and the oo right ot march. Do you recall after the boys were tragically burnt to death…how the oo still marched into Catholic areas ….how sick is that…especially with the Catholics holding signs in black that stated…”SHAME”….

    darth, you didn’t answer my question, YES or NO…Do you agree with the requirements for entry into the orange order that one should strenously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome and scrupulously avaoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act of ceremony of Popish worship? Thanks

  • TAFKABO

    the myth of protestant supremacy is just that, a myth, but it exists mainly in the paranoid imaginations of certain nationalists who can’t seem to grasp that they are the ones who swallow this tripe, not the majority of protestants.

    All classic demonising tactics, designed in order to make it all right to hate a particular group.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    TAFKABO, when an orgnaization—-the orange order—-has as it’s requirements for entry these following rules:

    l. He (orangeman) should cultivate truth and justice…
    2. He (orangeman) should..defend the protestant religion,….
    3. He (orangeman) should strenously oppose the fatal errors and doctines of the Church of Rome…

    Ergo here is the conclusion to those statements….orangemen are the ones who have truth and are the defenders of truth and must oppose the Churchof Rome…

    It isn’t a myth that protestants especially those in the orange order feel they are superior…why…a prerequiste for joining the orangization is a BELIEF they ARE superior…defenders of the truth and opposers to Catholics….It is a way of life for the orange order to not only feel they are superior but to act it…..by marching into neighborhoods of those they have vowed to oppose…

  • darth rumsfeld

    Hi kathy
    yes, I absolutely subscribe to the precepts you cite. So what? Officially the Roman Catholic church calls me a heretic, if you want to construct a heirarchy of victimhood. I’m not overly hung up about it.I happen to believe Roman Catholicism is theologically wrong , just as I believe that atheism, and agnosticsm are wrong- and they threaten society today far more than a distorted version of Christianity.

    If someone wants to discuss religion with me I try to point them to the Truth. No doubt Pope Benedict would try to correct me from what he would percive as my grievous errors.

    And your small, but significant distortion of the principles of Orangeism-we are not “opposers to Catholics” (sic). Orangeism is opposed to aspects of a religious doctrine, not individual adherents…er like every Church in the Christian world.

    After all, If all the paranoia which some of our opponents choose to spout on this thread is true, then we are must be spectacularly incompetent.

    With hundreds of thousands of members permeating every level of the judiciary, police,the media and every strand of civil society meeting in regular conclaves to plan murder, discrimination,gerrymandering etc etc, we have achieved:
    1 compulsory permanent coalition with the IRA as the price for any local administration;
    2 the state’s initiation of anti-Protestant discrimination in the Police force;
    3 Under representation in most parts of the Civil service, and the legal profession as well as many other employment areas;
    4 Underachievement by our children at secondary level education
    5 massively disproportionate underdevelopment in community and voluntary structure.

    Shucks, if you were OBJECTIVE you might almost think ..er… that Orangeism doesn’t really take its responsibility as the Most Evil Organisation Ever waging war on the Most Oppressed People Ever seriously.

    Your larger distortion- (“by marching into neighborhoods of those they have vowed to oppose”)… shows again the need to falsify to fit your prejudice. I repeat my earlier point with a specific example. Why are there no orange processions in Forkhill or Crossmaglen do you suppose, if our aim is to provoke ?

    And what-for the hundredth time, is your definition of the relgion of a housing estate/street/ town centre?
    If it’s fair that I can’t have my culture in a street you define as Roman catholic, can I forbid the GAA from palying games in an area I define as Protestant?

  • darth

    lovin’ your work 😉

  • darth rumsfeld

    ta bertie- oranje boven!

    Kathy- just to be clear, in case your post is based on ignorance rather than bias. The Quinn children were killed by a group of persons who were not members of the Orange Order , but those convicted were members of the “good terrorist”, pro-Agreement UVF, lauded by Mo Mowlam and other peace process apologists. Their tragic murder was totally unjustified, indefensible, not sponsored, sanctioned or supported by any Orangeman.
    And the people holding up posters were, as you well know, Sinn Fein activists, who exploited, and continue to exploit the deaths, as they persistently exploit any tragedy to advance their twisted politics.
    The people who continue to exploit that poor family’s misfortune would probably dig up the little coffins and parade them around every rally, TV studio, and chapel door for a vote.

    Sorry to disappoint your pantomime villain image of Orangemen-you’re going to have to accept we’re human too

  • again darth well said!

    The great uncle of the Quinn brothers came up to organisers of the Long March a few years ago, to identify himself and to say that he knew that the OO had nothing to do with his great nephew’s deaths abd that he would have no problem saying that to the media. He did but the Media somehow didn’t seem to be interested. I wonder if it would have been more interested if he had had an anti orange rant!

  • James Campbell

    ‘spontaneous activity’?
    In Belfast they start collecting for bonfires in April. Look at the rat infested filth that they reside beside in Annadale for nearly 4 months so that they can ‘lap in into the taigs’ on the Ormeau Road for one night in July.
    In Ballymena in 2005 they started burning catholics out of their homes in June and continued until mid August. No senior protestant politician or clergyman condemned these atrocities until they were shamed into it by nationalist politicans.
    ‘how can the OO tell if an area is catholic’?
    Well in Cullybacky the catholic houses are the ones where the PSNI give out fire blankets to residents to wrap their children in going to bed.
    Not too long ago the Head of the OO called on “brethern to get the names and addresses of their catholic neighbours to prepare for an imminent civil war”. I assume that this information is available to OO brethern at either a province or lodge level.
    However the easiest way of telling if you are marching through a catholic area is that the area will have been saturated with hundreds of police and army personnel and armoured vehicles. There will have been a curfew enforced on the residents several hours before you march and when the march has been forced through by the security (shurely shome mishtake – ed) forces, it will be followed by a rabble of drunken OO supporters ( sorry -serious students of anthropology)who will taunt the local residents.
    ‘underachievement by our children at secondary level education’
    I agree this is an absolute disgrace and a damning indictment of protestant society. The people of the Shankill should be knocking down the doors of their political and civic leaders in protest at this devastating betrayal of their children. All that they get from the OO is “next year you can dress up in orange regalia and march through catholic areas, and if we don’t we can attack the police and army and lay waste to our districts”.
    You’re absolutely right – the concept of protestant supremacy as spewed out by OO leaders is a myth. “You may have nothing but ‘our God is the True God’ and remember 1690”.
    It’s time the protestant working class stopped buying into this myth and started living in the 21 st century.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Ach come on now James, you’re embarassing yourself now.

    First- stop wriggling to get off the hook about the religious definition of an area. Anyone can work out the religion of his neighbour with a bit of amateur sleuthing. That’s entirely different from you or me defining a street, housing estate, town or townland as belonging to “themmuns” or “usuns”-which is of course presumably the justification of the morons who decide to attack the other sort who have the temerity to think they could reside there.

    Your insistence that there are Catholic areas-with the implication that there must then also be Protestant areas, is precisely the launch pad for the sectarianism which causes attacks on houses. DO you really not see that?

    Your -frankly pathetic-criticism of Unionist politicians for not parrotting ritualistic sentimental mush for the media when there were attacks in Ballymena is just cant.
    Gerry Adams has used every cloying insincere semantic device in the lexicon to avoid actually doing anything to help the Mccartney family,and he has even paraded them at his Ard Fheis-And the result?. A big fat nothing.
    If Paisley plonked himself down beside his RC constituents in the front pew of the Martyrs’ Memorial and gave each of them a big kiss it would be great television, but it would make no real practical difference to their suffering.
    Soundbites don’t stop sectarianism.

    “Not too long ago the Head of the OO called on “brethern to get the names and addresses of their catholic neighbours to prepare for an imminent civil war”. I assume that this information is available to OO brethern at either a province or lodge level. ”

    Er well, no,it’s not actually. And that might be because I very much doubt that Bobby Saulters ever said such a thing, not least beacuse he would have been prosecuted. Sadly for your bogeyman theories I can exclusively reveal Orangemen have…no plans for an imminent civil war, nor indeed any Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    If I may say so, you display a trait which I have noticed in many nationalists- even well-educated, mostly rational and otherwise intelligent professional people- namely a distorted , almost primal antipathy to all things Orange, which precludes rational or objective analysis. Perhaps it’s a folk memory thing; perhaps it’s indoctrination at Mummy’s knee; perhaps it’s herd instinct. Whatever its origins- it’s not objectively justifiable, and it’s time people started growing up.
    Unionists once tried to wish nationalists out of existence- it didn’t happen. And you’ve got to accept we’re here to stay, and we’ll do our own thing no matter what you want us to change into.

    George Best was a Free Presbyterian and an Orangeman- yet he was hardly either a sectarian bigot, or a Bible thumper. Dr Barnado was an Orangeman, who opened children’s homes for all denominations. Sean O’Casey was an Orangeman, before embarking on a political journey that would have confused Billy Leonard. Orangemen are ordinary people who do not spend every waking hour compiling notes on their neighbours, planning who they can burn out next, or the next contentious route.

    Stop the blatantly sectarian condescension of the Shankill people too , by the way, if you want to be a consistent paranoic. Either the OO is the vast overarching behemoth of the Protestant Ascendancy which looks after its own, or the Lumpen Prods’ comfort blanket because they are too stupid to get on in life like all those bright St Malachy’s boys. It can’t be both.

    And I’d reconsider your test for labelling an area. In June of 2003 I took part in an Orange procession in Dungiven- a village of almost 5,000 people- 100 of whom are Protestant. No police, no army, no curfew, no drunks- and the only hostility a few gestures from members of the local GAA team getting on their team bus to an away match. If the Shinners don’t start to get their act together and get a decent residents’ group out, with your standard are applied Dungiven will soon be more true blue than Portadown.

    Oh, and pedant that I am, the word is “brethren”, unless you are exercisng your Ulster Scots and refer to yer childer and grandchilder.

  • James Campbell

    Since by your earlier logic ( the OO don’t bus brethern into catholic arreas to march ) you are a resident of Dungiven. Could you tell us how many of the 100 protestant families in Dungiven are given fire blankets by the PSNI to wrap their children in going to bed during the marching season.
    Also I’m glad that you admit that you now know what are catholic and protestant areas. I’m certain that you always knew but like a good orangeman you pretended that you were ‘colour blind’.
    The ‘launch pad for attacks on catholic homes’ is not the knowledge that such houses are resided in by catholics but rather by a culture of hatred fostered and nurtured by the OO. This poison chalice of sectarian hatred is passed from orange generation to orange generation probably during their male bonding rituals.
    It wasn’t Bobby Saulters. Look at the back issues of the Belfast Telegraph.
    While you’re doing that check out which OO MP at the field called on “catholics to be placed in concentration camps prior to being resettled in Eire”
    You raised the issue of ‘underachievement in secondary education’. Once again you ignore the issue.
    By the very definition ‘leaders – lead’. The purpose of Protestant politicans and clergymen condemning the burning out of catholics from their homes is to give a lead to their community and maybe helping to stop these annual atrocities.

  • darth rumsfeld

    James, I really didn’t want to have to humiliate you, but you are becoming so shamelessly unhinged in this thread that others might mistake bluster for accuracy. Time for some unpleasant facts.

    1. You don’t wrap anyone in a fire blanket to go to bed. You throw it over a fire( Not exactly relevant to the main issue I know, but I couldn’t resist)

    2. I’m not from Dungiven. I wasn’t bussed into Dungiven. I was invited to attend a church service and I provocatively drove my Protestant car ( baptised specially for the occasion) through Checkpoint Billy (delineating where be Proddies) , onto the R C Main Street, got onto the RC pavement (ritually putting my boot on its oppressed neck), threw my Protestant crisp bag into the RC litter bin ( ritual re-enacting of the Planters usurping the true land owners there), and went with about 50 others to church, where we used the Book of Common prayer- which contains the anti-RC 39 Articles.

    3. Slugger expects quotations- particularly contentious ones – to be sourced, at least generally, if you don’t have the entire back catalogue of the Belfast Telegraph in your house. What Grand Master said what you claim, when, and to whom?
    What MP called for concentration camps to be set up? When? To whom?
    I suspect they were Grand Master Tinky Winky, and Brother La La, in James’ little world of wibble, because these are “quotations” never before raised on Slugger, or elsewhere to my recollection- and I’m sure those clever chappies in the Republican Movement would have trotted them out as nauseam if they had ever been said.
    Funnily enough, they’re stuck recycling Basil Brooke’s comments from 80 years ago as if they were relevant to today. Perhaps an appropriate comparison would be to blame the modern Conservative party for Stanley Baldwin’s rolie in the abdication of edward VIII
    Even if I am charitable enough to accept you believe these absurd and imaginary comments, precisely how many concentration camps were set up by the Orange in response?

    4 I have not conceded that I accept your definition of the religious faith of a streetlight,as you obviuosly know, but if I did, you and Kathy are still strangely silent on my challenge about “your” culture being expressed in “my” area. Should the GAA get the permission of the host community to exercise its cultural activities- Yes or No?

    5.Yes leaders must lead-and the DUP( most unconnected with the orange by the way)did condemn the attacks in Ahoghill- they weren’t shamed by anyone either. One thing the DUP are gloriously predictable for is their impervious disdain for the media, so Irish News editorials were never going to lose them votes. They did condemn the attacks, and met privately with the victims.
    You might see gesture politics as statecraft- I am not gullible enough to believe any words of a politician – I base my judgment on action. So do most Unionists- that’s why we aren’t impressed by IRA words which turned out to be fool’s gold for instance.

    6″ This poison chalice of sectarian hatred is passed from orange generation to orange generation probably during their male bonding rituals.”
    Yeah, you’ve caught us out there. We donated £14,000 to the Foyle Hospice last week, but that wasn’t charity, that was because we hoped more of themmuns would die. And we’re launching a recruitment drive among members for the Blood Transfusion service, but it’s a real bugger ensuring that only Prods are allowed to get our pure and noble blood.

    Just a thought James. Imagine we have the neck not to change to suit your prejudices- How would you deal with us in a united Ireland? Try to come up with suggestions without using any of the methods attributed to the Stormont government in 1920. Ooops, imagine having to look at if from my perspective …….

  • James Campbell

    The murder of the Quinn brothers is an EXACT parallel to the murder of Robert McCartney.
    The Quinn brothers were murdered by OO supporters following a loyalist parade. Robert McCartney was murdered by Sinn Fein supporters following a republican parade.
    The Orange Order launched a campaign of vilification against the Quinn family following the outrage.
    Sinn Fein launched a campaign of vilification against the McCartney family following the outrage.
    Both of these slanderous campaigns continue to this day, even within the confinds of ‘slugger’.
    Strange bedfollows!
    In a previous post you claimed that protestant politicans and clergymen DIDN’T condemn the burning out of catholics in Ballymena in 2005 because it “would only pander to the media”.
    Make up your mind.
    Personal fire blankets for WRAPPING children in were distributed by the PSNI to catholic families in Cullybacky.
    But it is a good indication of the nature of orangemen that you can make a joke of catholic children living in terror of being burnt to death. It is a typical tactic of facists – denegrate your opponents as laughably sub-human and then you don’t have to have a conscience about their murder.
    Here’s another historical question;
    The first member of the RUC to be murdered in the troubles was Constable Arbuckle. He was murdered by loyalists during rioting following an OO march.
    Can you name the last member of the RUC to be killed?
    Here a hint; he was blown up by loyalists during rioting following an OO march in Armagh.
    There’s a lot of reference to blood in your last post. Is it possible that the Foyle Hospice cash was blood money to salve a guilty conscience.
    My views on a united ireland might well surprise you, but I shall deal with you here by exposing the lying hypocrisy of the OO.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “In a previous post you claimed that protestant politicans and clergymen DIDN’T condemn the burning out of catholics in Ballymena in 2005 because it “would only pander to the media”.
    Make up your mind.”
    Where? I said that they didn’t pander to the media, not that they didn’t condemn

    “But it is a good indication of the nature of orangemen that you can make a joke of catholic children living in terror of being burnt to death. It is a typical tactic of facists – denegrate your opponents as laughably sub-human and then you don’t have to have a conscience about their murder. ”
    I didn’t make a joke- I pointed out your error. I don’t regard any child as subhuman.

    “The Orange Order launched a campaign of vilification against the Quinn family following the outrage. ”
    Where? Like your imaginary MP and his concentration camps, you’re making it up as you go along. Do you forget what William Bingham said live on national TV?

    “The Quinn brothers were murdered by OO supporters following a loyalist parade. Robert McCartney was murdered by Sinn Fein supporters following a republican parade.”
    The Quinns were murdered by the UVF. Mr Mccartney was murdered by the IRA. IRA and SF, are- as we all know, inextricably linked. The UVF and the Orange Order are not.

    Any chance of you answering my questions now instead of huffing and puffing to distract from your increasingly desperate attempts to avoid the exposure of your own prejudice ? I did say you were obviously too old to open your mind. I didn’t think you were too old to forget where you’d left it

  • James Campbell

    “protestant politicans and clergymen condemn the burning out of catholis in private” – that’s all right then. No wonder the campaign lasted 3 months in 2005.
    However it is a common tactic of the OO. Crocodile tears of condemnation , solely for the purpose of deniability, but with a nod and a wink to the terrorists. It is a skill not unique to the OO but a tactic practiced by many totalitarian terror organisations. However sometimes they can get it wrong like when OO member George Seawright called for “catholics and their priests to be incinerated”. Sorry George you had to go – maybe being raised in Scotland didn’t expose you to the nuances of OrangeSpeak. You had to be much much more subtle than that. Watch the OO marching in Portadown – as they passed the chaple at the top of the Garvaghy Road the brethern jump up and down and chant “Robert Hamill pumkin head”. Much food for thought here for serious anthropologists.
    The OO and the protestant terrorists are inextricably liked through a causal effect.
    In Belfast the OO try to march through a catholic area. In the ensuing civil disturbance Constable Arbuckle is murdered by the UVF.
    In Armagh during rioting following an OO march Constable Gallagher is murdered by OO supporters.
    In Ballymoney following an OO march catholic homes are bombed and the Quinn brothers are murdered by OO marchers.
    Geddit???
    The denigration of the mental capabilities of opponents is a tactic common to both the OO and the Nazis. It means that you can treat them as subhuman, therefore no guilty conscience when they are exterminated. It also explains how you can make light of catholic children being wrapped in fireblankets going to bed in case their homes are petrol bombed by OO supporters.
    The nazis also dressed up in fascist regalia and marched through Jewish areas. In any ensuing civil disorder they blamed the catholic residents (sorry the Jewish residents)woops!

  • darth rumsfeld

    sorry James, I took the weekend off in London as I have a life, but when I come back you are still there splendidly howling at the moon , convinced by the brilliance of your own feeble and hackneyed KKK/Nazi metaphors. If only you realised- even the Shinners are embarassed to debate at that level.

    It’s those little things that expose you- like making up the disgusting comments about Robert Hamill, when noone else seems to have heard them, and I’m sure we’d never have heard the end of it if this was true. Like so many of your other unsourced and unattributed “facts”. “The truth shall set you free”, is ordinarily a religious exhortation, but I guess you’d see it as a threat

    Since you are unwilling to answer any point, or debate above the level of flailing hysterics, I naturally presumed a lack of perspective, which is often a sign of inability to think rationally. I am certainly not labelling you mentally deficient- it’s for others to form that opinion, and categorically I have no desire to see you exterminated. Rather, I am endeavouring to see you educated, but I fear I have failed, so I’ll leave this thread to you, so you can post all the rubbish you want for the next six months, unchallenged in your belief that Orangemen eat Catholic babies.Whatever gets you through the night

    Just a note to any other reader, though- it’s all tosh, ok?

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    Since I’m new to this site…I’m having trouble figuring out how to get back into a discussion. I get the email that someone has answered…then I hit the response but get a page that is not the discussion that I was being contacted about. I found this again…only after going to the main page and going through all the discussion pages which took a longggggggg time…any hints on how to do it quicker.?

  • James Campbell

    It’s “know the truth and the truth shall set you free”. I hope that I have been of some assistance in enlightening you and the other readers as to the true nature of the OO.
    As you say, let’s leave it for 6 months and revisit the thread after the marching season.
    It’ll be interesting to see how many catholics will have been burnt out or murdered as a result of your annual OO cultural festival.

  • James Campbell

    It’s “know the truth and the truth shall set you free”.
    It’s important that the truth is known about the vile and murderous activities of the OO.
    However, as you say, lets leave it for 6 months and come back to the thread after the marching season. It’ll be interesting so see how many catholics will have been burnt out or murdered as part of your annual OO cultural festival.