Several other spies still in place?

The Sunday Independent is trailing more spies in the organisation. Including one big name that they claim fed information to the Gardai that subsequently led to the ambush of a group of IRA men at Loughgall in 1987.

  • elfinto

    The Sindo never was anything other than an anti-republican gossip sheet. Not having subs to it (over my dead body) I would assume that the piece cited is in a similar vein and should be completely disregarded.

  • Henry94

    I stopped beliving the story when I got as far as this bit

    by Jim Cusack

  • kate

    Time to go on a tout hunt lol. Who is the second mole in SF? Who is the Garda mole?? Would anyone be surprised by anything now? How devistating for republicans who have spent a lot of time in jail or lost loved ones to have this happen. It seems the ordinary republican supporter or voter cannot trust the leadership of the RM, which was something that everyone took for granted. Not any more. Sad times indeed!!

  • elfinto

    Kate,

    Do you really believe everything that the Special Branch tell to their favourite journalists?

    As the IRA has ended its campaign the future activity of any possible agents is largely meaningless. I would suggest that it’s more demoralising for ex-prisoners to have spent years in jail in pursuit of a campaign that was never likely to achieve its aims in the first place.

    Ending the armed struggle was the right thing to do, morally, politically and militarily. If the impact of touts within the movement contributed to that decision then so be it.

    The relatives of IRA volunteers killed by Scap and the Nutting Squad must feel sorely agrieved though.

  • These allegations of further touts within leadership level are the work of Special Branch.

    They are seeking to send further doubt and mistrust throughout the movement.

    I am not saying 100% that there is no further touts, there may very well be.

    That said Republicans should not lose that trust and support that there is within the movement.

    We are not like other political parties; our comradeship, sheer political conviction and activism are our strengths.

    This is something no British agent can destroy.

    If Sinn Féin was riddled at leadership level by Special Branch touts, as some “commentators” i.e. RUC/PSNI stooges/journalists, have suggested then Sinn Féin would not be in the position of strength that it finds itself in today.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Weak and slightly hysterical analysis, Chris.
    Perhaps the position republicans are in today is *exactly* where the British want them.

  • “Weak”

    What makes it weak?

    “slightly hysterical analysis”

    How is it slightly hysterical?

    “Perhaps the position republicans are in today is *exactly* where the British want them.”

    To think you have the cheek to accuse me of hysterical analysis LOL

  • pauldev

    Elfinto is well of beam. He is a silly republican who doesn’t know the truth. The IRA is a criminal gang, thats why they are riddled with informers

  • TAFKABO

    The relatives of IRA volunteers killed by Scap and the Nutting Squad must feel sorely agrieved though.

    Whereas they wouldn’t be quite so upset if their loved ones had been tortured and killed by genuine republicans?

    These last couple of days have really shown us just how rotten and amoral a lot of Irish republicans are, when you get right down to it.

  • elfinto

    Tafakbo,

    Those who betrayed their comrades knew what the consequences were. This is the case with most military organisations throughout the world in times of conflict.

    Those who did not betray their comrades but were executed by Scap were victims of an appalling injustice. This is why the republican leadership has not acknowledged that Scap was a tout – to quote Lord Denning it is an appalling vista.

    pauldev is not worthy of a response

  • TAFKABO

    Those who betrayed their comrades knew what the consequences were.

    And those who would lecture the rest of us on the ideas of justice and due process should reflect on their own adherence (or lack thereof ) to the same.

    Like I said before, this last couple of days have really shown the morally bankrupt core at the heart of the RM.

  • Henry94

    b TAFKABO

    A lot of the comments you are talking about come from dissident republicans.

  • JD

    Tafkabo,

    Can unionists not see past their blind hatred of republicans to what has actually happened here. This is a British plot not a republican one, perpetrated by the corrupt cabal within and without the PSNI. I know it may be difficult to get your head around it but you have all been duped, there was no SF spy ring, there was no Castlereagh break in and who did the Northern Bank raid suit. Days ago you would all have been shouting conspiracy theory madness however people may not be so quick to shout now.

  • elfinto

    How was Donaldson outed?

    Was it his erstwhile handlers in Special Branch or MI5?

    Did someone in the legal team come across the truth?

    Did the Provos know all along?

  • TAFKABO

    JD

    I don’t have a blind hatred of republicans, even though I’m not exactly enamoured with irish republicanism as an ideology.
    Can you not see that the blind hatred is coming from those who are making veiled threats and alluding to people deserving torture and death?

    Henry

    it may well be that those making the threats are dissidents (though how you can be so absolutely certain is beyond me ), but to a lot of us, there is little discernible difference between those so called dissidents who want to kill, and your squeaky clean “turned over a new leaf” republicans who did kill in the past.

    You are fond of telling us about “unionist” paramilitaries, so you just have to accept that you have nationalist paramiltaries on your side, and they haven’t gone away.

  • elfinto

    Sounds like tafkabo is trying to position himself on the non-existent moral high ground of NI politics. Yawn.

  • Henry94

    b TAFKABO

    i You are fond of telling us about “unionist” paramilitaries, so you just have to accept that you have nationalist paramiltaries on your side, and they haven’t gone away.

    But they aren’t very impressive either.

  • TAFKABO

    Elfinto

    Not the moral high ground of Northern ireland politics, after all, I was once a member of the PUP and I have never been one to deny what unionists did in the past.
    But Slugger the site aims to rise above all the usual garbage that passes for discussions about Northern Ireland.
    There are plenty of other places where you can play the armchair executioner.

  • elfinto

    Truly a case of pot-kettle-black.

    I don’t see anyone on this thread playing the armchair executioner so save the garbage for somewhere else – loveulster.com could be the place for you.

  • TAFKABO

    Those who betrayed their comrades knew what the consequences were.

    My apologies Elfinto

    I thought that by making the above comment you agreed with the sentiments, hence the armchair excecutioner remark.

    Am I to conclude that you, like most other people, find the idea of abritrary death sentences by illegal and unelected bodies to be unnaceptable?

  • Henry94

    b TAFKABO

    Am I to conclude that you, like most other people, find the idea of abritrary death sentences by illegal and unelected bodies to be unnaceptable?

    Are you implying that abritrary death sentences by legal and elected bodies are aceptable?

  • TAFKABO

    No, I’m implying that arbitrary death sentences by Illegal
    organisations are unacceptable to the majority of people.

    Personaly speaking, I’m against the death penalty by everyone, including the state, but I don’t think i’m in the majority on that one.

  • elfinto

    Tafkabo,

    It’s a simple statement of fact. The IRA’s Green Book states that the penalty for treason (i.e. betraying the organisation) is death. Therefore IRA volunteers who informed knew very well the consequences of their actions. I don’t see how that makes me an armchair executioner. You’re barking up the wrong tree, mate.

  • TAFKABO

    Elfinto.

    I already said in my last post that I was happy enough if you sided with the civilised majority on the issue.

    but since you brought up the issue of the
    the green book
    , what happens now?, do the rules, as stated in this hallowed tome still apply?

    And if not, then why are you bringing it up?

    And if not, then when did the rules change?

  • elfinto

    Really, my knowledge of these matters is limited to what I have read in books and the media, so I can’t help you.

    As Scap is alive and well and apparently living somewhere near the town of Cassino in Italy it would appear that this rule (i.e. death for treason) is not mandatory. Perhaps it only applies during an armed campaign. Maybe more seasoned Provo watchers can answer these questions.

  • The IRA said in the 1990’s the any informers who came forward would not be shot.

  • Alan

    *Perhaps it only applies during an armed campaign.*

    and

    *The IRA said in the 1990’s the any informers who came forward would not be shot.*

    It really is like a gang of pre-pubescent boys arguing over what the rules of their tree hut should be – although they all know that they will just make them up as they go along anyway!

    For goodness sake listen to yourselves!

    The availability of guns immediately reduces the mental age by about 75%, which is clearly evidenced in the above comments. The armed struggle was immoral, indefensible and self-defeating. Anyone seeking rational explanations for events caused by the military campaign has to face up to that profound contradiction.

  • Alan

    Alan,

    For goodness sake listen to yourself!

    Taking things out of context, putting a unionist spin on them and then dishing out liberal amounts of abuse. Are you a member of the DUP?

    And in case you hadn’t realised – war is ammoral -whether it be in Ireland, Israel or Iraq.

  • Alan

    I am not arguing about anything, I just thought that little piece of information might be of use in this debate (which I am not a part of) about the “rules”

    For goodness sake listen to yourselves!

    Calm down, take a chill pill!

    “The availability of guns immediately reduces the mental age by about 75%, which is clearly evidenced in the above comments”

    What are you on about?

    “The armed struggle was immoral, indefensible and self-defeating.”

    WRONG, WRONG AND WRONG!

    “Anyone seeking rational explanations for events caused by the military campaign has to face up to that profound contradiction.”

    No they don’t!

  • elfinto

    The comment above (#28) was directed TO alan FROM myself elfinto.

    Alan,

    For goodness sake listen to yourself!

    Taking things out of context, putting a unionist spin on them and then dishing out liberal amounts of abuse. Are you a member of the DUP?

    And in case you hadn’t realised – war is amoral -whether it be in Ireland, Israel or Iraq.

  • fitz

    donaldson needs one in the back off the head.The proof is there now,off how a non secterian goverment and security forces still grasp for us to accept second class citizens of a state that only exist,s in there mind.THE NAZIS HAVEN,T GONE AWAY YA KNOW!

  • Belfastwhite

    The fact that Donaldson was not shot may now encourage others who went down the same road to come clean. Who knows maybe we will have Brit agents admitting to the Castlereagh break in and the Northern Job among others.

  • elfinto

    Apparently Donaldson was central to the recruitment of Larry Zaitschek, the American chef who worked at Castlereagh. Did Brit intelligence use agent provocateurs to feed the Provos a lot of supposedly valuable but essentially dud information about Special Branch informers in their ranks?

  • pauldev

    Elfinto,

    You are totally wrong. All this case does is proove the level of collusion between the SF leadership and the British Government. The Assembly needed to be brought down because of Sf’s insistence on holding onto IRA weapons. Im from north Belfast and have seen at first hand the sectarian campaign waged by the IRA on innocent Protestant people. Protestants shot in their homes because they were Protestant, while Catholics were able to live in safety. Anything that can stop the IRA is okay by me.

  • elfinto

    pauldev,

    So you have first hand knowledge of the Castlereagh job then? You are evidently some kind of well-connected spook.

    Your knowledge of ‘facts’ on the ground in north Belfast is absolutely ludicrous. ‘Catholics in north Belfast were able to live in safety’ – the stats tell us otherwise. Experience tells me otherwise.

  • Dec

    Protestants shot in their homes because they were Protestant, while Catholics were able to live in safety.

    Is that a sick joke?

  • In answer to the question
    Would I kill for Ireland?
    Yes I would have,
    but the war is now over.
    In answer to the question
    Would I die for Ireland?
    The answer is still YES

  • pauldev

    U should check your beer goggles elfinto.

  • Shay Begorrah

    I would guess that the reason the IRA have not attempted to whack either Scap or Donaldson are tactical and not a sudden conversion to pacifism.

    Obvioulsy now the main threat of further informers/spies is not that they will reveal SF’s dastardly but brilliant electoral plans to a grateful special branch but that they can be used to politically damage the Republican movement by the state in various ways. It depends I suppose on what you think is most important in civil life but it does not sould particularly healthy in a democracy.

    As regards the IRA’s prior practice of killing suspected informers (or collaborators if you will) it has been a long time practice of partisans/terrorists/guerillas/gangsters and is a fairly natural thing to do in low intensity warfare for the smaller player. It is certainly no more immoral than killing an eighteen year old squadie or an RUC reservist.

    On a final cheerful note I believe I read a story that the leader of the Yugoslavian partisans during the second world war let his own daughter be killed for consorting with the Germans (correct me, go on) so NI did not plumb the depths available (and no, before you ask, I am not comparing anyone to the Nazis).