On the morality of smuggling

Nice debate kicing off on the moral virtue of smuggling: yes says Chris; and no says the big Ulsterman.

  • Pete Baker

    A nice debate, Mick?

    If it was only concerned with the pricing criteria of something like MS Office then nice may have been an appropriate description.. but it isn’t.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Chris mentioned something he thought was smuggling, but which actually isn’t – it is counterfeiting and software theft. I’d always understood that “smuggling” is importing something illegally to avoid paying duty and tax. These are not illegal imports – they are illegal counterfeit copies, probably manufactured in someone’s spare room using their home computer. It’s important to get that straight.

    The full Microsoft Office suite which retails for ~EUR600 but which Chris can pick up for a fiver (note to Chris – it probably cost the maker less than 50p to make – nice markup) isn’t intended for use by individuals, and 95% of the functionality will almost certainly never be used by folks sitting at home typing out the odd letter or kids doing school coursework, etc. The MS Works suite bundled with most PCs these days is perfectly good for those tasks, and has the added benefit in that the proceeds don’t go towards subsidizing criminals.

  • Pete Baker

    Chris mentioned something he thought was smuggling, but which actually isn’t..

    Yes, Comrade.. but then he is only a student of law.. for now.. *shudder*

  • Crataegus

    Use open office http://www.openoffice.org/ It is free and will work just fine for the needs of 99% of the population, and it is not Microsoft BIG PLUS!!

  • G.M.C.

    Free software is available on the internet, and is often as good as the Microsoft stuff which costs hundreds of pounds.

    There are free programmes, like openoffice, and others which allow immediate document access and full facility for documents created on Microsoft programmes and similarly, openoffice created documents can be accessed as easily on Microsoft programmes.

    There is welcome relief to Microsoft programmes all of the time. Free Internet browsers are often much better than Microsoft Internet Explorer but the relief again is a good idea, for IE or Netscape (search: freeware internet browser). There are great programmes which cost around ten pounds as well, or a bit more.

    I think if it is expressed publicly often that the Microsoft software which is the industry standard is very expensive, notice should be taken. Many people don’t seem to care too much about pirating items this expensive which seem to operate in a market away from competition or reality often. Although reasonable value when in a computer package, why should these programmes be so expensive? And they are the ones which receive so much attention at home computing and business classes.

    Also, rather decent anti-virus programmes are free, so you need never take risks for example if your Norton programme expires!

    (These seem as good as the Norton prgramme to me, I can’t really tell, and have either more frequent or much more frequent virus definition free online updates.)

    A German software firm makes Anti-Vir
    (http://www.free-av.com)
    and a Czech software firm makes AVG
    (http://free.grisoft.com).

  • note to Chris – it probably cost the maker less than 50p to make – nice markup

    Closer to 10p CS 😉

    “Yes, Comrade.. but then he is only a student of law.. for now.. *shudder*”

    LOL, why the bitterness Pete?

    You never seem to have a civil word to say once my name is mentioned.

    It was just an example of how the black market helps people from Working-class families. I understand that it is not smuggling but my point is still valid.

    The black market would not function if people were not prepared to support it and not everyone suffers from the Malone road morality syndrome.

    You would be surprised at the amount of people who purchase goods that come from piracy and smuggling, including public bodies.

  • Eerzaam

    …not everyone suffers from the Malone road morality syndrome

    That is a truly shameful remark. Speaking as someone brought up in the Malone Road area, some of the most honest people I have known have been from working class areas. Judge people by as you find them and not by your own self-confessed dishonest standards.

    Shame on you.

  • mnob

    So basically the complaint is that the PSNI is finally policing Jonesborough market in the same was as they have policed Nutts Corner for years, and some locals dont like it.

    Amongst other things on offer at the market were fake taxi plates so that any sammy, sean or harry could go out taxiing with impunity and endanger the safety of the public, but hey its all Robin Hoood stuff (even though he was a Brit) and two fingers to the Brits so thats OK.

    Oh and copied software is not theft for personal gain – is actually an anti globalisation campaign.

    Very interesting take on atitudes to the law with a republican slant. I can’t see how its a campaign against the British as last time I checked theft, smuggling and counterfeiting were illegal in most societies.

  • TAFKABO

    How does not paying taxes on goods help working class people if it ultimately means less money poured into education and the health service?.

    Last I heard there were people in south Armagh sitting on tens of millions of pounds made through smuggling, money that ought to have been poured into the public purse was now in their bank accounts, with precious little sign of it being used to enhance the lives of poor working class people.

  • black market helps people from Working-class families

    My heart bleeds. These smugglers clearly aren’t doing it to line their own pockets or to fund the provisional movement, but are doing it simply to help the ‘working class’. How selfless of them. What heroes…

    And what about the lost revenue from these smuggling enterprises? How are we supposed to pay for hospitals, schools, and roads? If everyone lived by the same mentality as Jonesborough racketeers, even more people would be left on hospital trolleys and our classes would be even more packed.

    And what about the jobs lost from piracy? Ireland has done very well from American IT ‘capitalists’. Thousands of jobs on the island are supported by this sector, including Microsoft, whose biggest operation outside its US headquarters in in, you guessed it, Ireland. The more people that engage in the crime that Chris advocates, the more risk there is to Irish jobs. People might think they are getting a bargain, and intrinsically this may be true, but this isn’t a victimless crime. Working class people who have been given jobs in some of Ireland’s most deprived areas will find themselves back on the dole queue.

    So who’s interests are really being prioritised here by the provo movement? The working class, who might be getting a ‘bargain’ but will end up worse off when they are made redundant or can’t get a necessary operation; or the provos themselves, who continue to live the capitalist dream by coining it from selling fake goods and smuggled cigarettes?

  • Crataegus

    GMC

    I agree there are great shareware and open source programmes. We should mention the wonderful firefox and thunderbird http://www.mozilla.com/products/ FREE and sure beat outlook express.

    The problem with pirate software is it is actually propping up the likes of Microsoft by reinforcing its dominance and undermining competition.

    What I really dislike about Microsoft and what I consider illustrates its inner sole is the licensing system for windows. You are supposed to buy multiple licences for the computer in the office and the one at home and the portable. It is not the user that is licensed but the computer it is installed on. So I pay three times and a call centre with a computer being used by three different users round the clock pays once.

    Also I also dislike buying software that does not work properly and them being sold the fix in the next version. If you bought a car and it behaved like some software it would be straight down to the solicitor.

    If I could make a plea to as many of you as possible to have a look at Linux http://www.linux.org/dist/ . It is easy enough to install and software like open office also runs on it. It will serve most people well and legally and it is also a 64 bit operating system. So for those of you with ADM Athlon processors etc. Why not?

    If in doubt you can install two operating systems and choose the one to use at boot up. You simply partition the hard drive and may need a programme such as Acronis to do this easily. The weakness on Linux is lack of CAD programmes but most users could use Linux, open office etc and do so freely and legally. You probably have no need to venture into the world of Microsoft.

    One final mention is tikiwiki http://tikiwiki.org/ for those of you setting up a website. There is even a page titled tikiwiki for the Brits http://uk.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php which may endear some of you. As different people have written different parts it doesn’t quite have uniformity throughout and there are a few bugs, but worth a look at if you are setting up something not too involved. Would do for the average forum site.

  • pacman

    “Jonesborough Racketeers”

    A point to note El Mat is that the majority of the fake goods sold on the approach roads to the market do not originate from either the Jonesborough or South Armagh area. This misinformation is sadly typical of the spin fed to the media every a raid occurs.

    Anyway, it comes down to one simple premise: Supply & Demand. The people who purchase the goods and the vast majority of the people in the surrounding area care little for depriving the British exchequer of their own hard-earned cash. Since the inception of the state and up until a few years back, this area was fed the scraps from Stormont’s table as regards investment for any purpose. You’ll forgive me if I don’t much care about paying what I do earn into NI Plc.

  • Henry94

    It’s often said that the peope of South Armagh are natural smiugglers going back generations. It was in that case a stupid place to put a border.

    It is a far more believable explanation that that the imposition of a border into the middle of an area where it is not wanted is going to lead to people treating it with the contempt it desreves.

  • Crataegus

    The idea that it is good for the economy to import expensive goods so the exchequer can collect a few pounds is a fallacy. Better to reduce imports by investing in cheaper alternatives.

    There is a counter argument that piracy is in fact good for the economy. Elizabeth the first had no problems with the concept. So the good people of South Armagh are merely following an ancient Royal tradition.

  • It is a far more believable explanation that that the imposition of a border into the middle of an area where it is not wanted is going to lead to people treating it with the contempt it desreves.

    That is what happenned Henry

  • Crataegus

    Anyone fancy a cattle raid into the Cooley Peninsula this weekend? Let’s face it all borders everywhere provide opportunities.

  • Pacman,

    “the majority of the fake goods sold on the approach roads to the market do not originate from either the Jonesborough or South Armagh area”

    I know- they originate in China and eastern Europe. The reference to Jonesborough Racketeers relates to those who sell fake and smuggled goods in Jonesborough. What’s your point?

    “it comes down to one simple premise: Supply & Demand”

    The same could be said of drugs- there clearly is supply and demand for illegal drugs, but that doesn’t make it ok to be a drug dealer. Applying the simple rule of market economics to a situation doesn’t legitimise it.

    “care little for depriving the British exchequer of their own hard-earned cash”

    The money does not disappear into some black hole called the exchequer or NI plc.- it is used to fund schools, hospitals, roads, council services, and although we may have reservations about how it is allocated, the money for these services does not appear from nowhere.

    If you don’t “care much about paying into NI plc” as you put it, then you don’t care about how people are supposed to get healthcare or education, or basically any other state provided service. Do you propose we go down the American line of low taxes and no benefits or healthcare for those on little or no income? Hardly the ‘democratic socialist agenda’ Sinn Féin purports to espouse, but if you don’t want to fund the system, that’s what happens.

  • Pacman

    EL Mat

    I should’ve expressed myself better. The majority of the traders who sell the fake goods do not come from this area. I have a few legitimate traders as close friends who will back this up.

    I have not attempted to portray the selling of these goods as legitimate. I was merely stating a fact. Morally I could never condone the selling of drugs but my concience is clear when it comes to buying cheap tobacco.

    A lot of the money that is used to fund all the things above is screwed from my (and many others pay packets) through income tax/rates/national insurance etc. It’s also about to get a lot worse and before you start, I don’t believe for a second that I or anyone else would benefit from lower taxation or lower rates if the black market dried up in the morning. What goes into the exchequer rarely comes back out to benefit me. The fact that my wage is about £5,000 lower than the British average shows exactly where Whithall’s priorities lie when it comes to doling out the goodies.

    “Do you propose we go down the American line of low taxes and no benefits or healthcare for those on little or no income? Hardly the ‘democratic socialist agenda’ Sinn Féin purports to espouse”

    Firstly, I’m not a socialist. If I win the lotto I’ll happily be a capitalist and secondly I don’t vote. So Sinn Fein are of little consequence to me.

    Why not the American system? I’d much rather I benefited from what I earned instead of paying for maintaining the Britishness of some work-shy layabout in Sandy Row!

  • Crataegus

    Pacman

    The work shy everywhere and abuse of the system like tax evasion is a problem, because people like you and I pay more and people in need receive less.

    But surely we should care for the elderly and infirm and we can all hit bad times through no fault of our own. Do you really want the American system where if someone has a heart attack you are afraid to phone an ambulance in case the person hasn’t health insurance and you could be liable for a bill?

    I have a very relaxed attitude to smuggling the money spent or saved is spent elsewhere and eventually the Exchequer gets it. Its existence is an argument for harmonising tax structures. With piracy someone looses as this is theft. Much as I hate Microsoft, programmers do have to be paid, and it would be much better to encourage the use of cheap legal alternatives and support those alternatives.

    It also puzzles me as to why anyone would buy a pirate CD when they could simply download the dammed thing for nothing from one of the bit torrent sites such as The Pirate Bay. http://thepiratebay.org/

  • Pacman

    I wholeheartedly agree Crataegus. As I first-aider, I’d be the first on my knees to help someone in dire straits. I was merely illustrating the point that those who would demonise the area that I live in (and our morality) should look in their own backyard first and not lecture us for not maintaining a status quo I don’t wish to subscribe to.

    We don’t hear much these days about major raids in Nutts Corner so some people seem to thin they have a moral high ground.

  • Crataegus

    Pacman

    The police do check cars going to and from Nutts Corner and I would expect another major raid there before long. It is monitored.

    I agree with you it is easy to label ALL people in an area and then attack them. Every group so attacked helps degrade our perception of humanity generally. Few of us are saints and we all get by with cutting the corners here and there. We are human, but there are professional criminals everywhere, and what really annoys me is that those embezzling millions or defrauding people out of their pensions seem to get off rather lightly. One rule for the poor and another for the well educated and advantaged men in suits. Another problem I have is politicians who deliberately lie and mislead for no good purpose than saving their own neck. People in office need to set the standard.

  • darth rumsfeld

    of course working class people also benefit from smuggled ciggies too. Pity they’re even more toxic than the legit ones, but sacrifices have to be made to keep the Provo machine running

  • Crataegus

    Darth

    Suppose there are no Loyalists criminals, they are all at it. If its not cigs its drugs. They are all a disgrace.

  • Aidan

    I’d like to know why the working class man has a need for a EUR600 version of Microsoft Office?

    Justifying piracy by assuming that large international corporations like Microsoft are the only negatively affected party is grossly over-simplying things. This sort of thing affects many companies, large and small, and hence negatively affects the whole economy.

    And we complain when insurance companies raise their rates for NI because of a greater number of fraudulent claims here?

    You can justify anything by applying the simplest, superficial logic to it..

  • Brian Boru

    If we harmonised N-S taxes on fuel it would help the situation.

  • Crataegus

    Boru

    “If we harmonised N-S taxes on fuel it would help the situation.”

    What it would then be cheaper for us to distribute our sheds full of pirate CD’s?

    Actually I agree we need harmonisation of taxes or people will make the most of the opportunity that difference creates. There is a nice scheme for putting profits through a Southern Company and the losses through a Northern one.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Chris G, I hope you don’t have an eye on a political career, because the “it’s OK for people to smuggle if times are hard for them” argument is one that could be used against you in the future. Sinn Fein aspire to be in government in both parts of the island, and investors will not be keen to invest in a country whose government openly tolerates smuggling, counterfeiting and intellectual property theft.

    I’m at a loss to understand why everyone is talking about smuggling when it is not clear that a lot of it has taken place. The goods recovered near Jonesborough by the police lately will mostly have been counterfeit or fake goods.

    Other people have weighed in to say that it’s alright for people who got screwed by the British people to rip of the exchequer. Folks, these are not so much exchequer rip-offs; they are counterfeit goods. There can be problems with this; counterfeit items such as perfumes or cosmetics have been known to contain dangerous substances for example. Regarding the point about supply and demand, people will always buy cheap knock-offs if they are available. That is true now, and it will be true if Ireland is reunited – it will be true to the end of time. This is common theft, and it is ridiculous for people to somehow imply that this common theft is part of the republican struggle. Loyalists and plenty of other people shift counterfeit and stolen stuff around too – so please cut the crap.

    Regarding the Windows-bash fest, I’m one of the people who believes that UNIX-like systems such as Linux are the only proper way to operate a computer and everything else is a nasty kludgy compromise. I agree that Microsoft is evil, and Windows isn’t great (although it improved immensely whenever Windows 2000 came out), however open source products such as Linux and Open Office are definitely not yet at the point where they match the functionality and ease of use offered by Windows or MS Office. The other problem is interoperability (will Open Office open all your MS Office documents correctly, and vice versa?). However, it’s remarkable the quality that actually does exist with free software these days. I agree with the other poster about Firefox and Thunderbird; they are excellent and since installing them a year and a half ago I’ve never looked back.

    [Cratageus : AFAIK the Windows EULA allows you to install a copy on one other computer. But it’s for personal use only.]

    Brian Boru writes :

    If we harmonised N-S taxes on fuel it would help the situation.

    Rubbish. Fuel smugglers are paying no tax on the fuel. They are taking agricultural fuel, removing the dye, and selling it on with no tax or duty paid. There seems to be a problem with republicans; the only tool they have is a hammer so every problem looks like a nail. There are explanations for things that do not depend on the presence of the border.

  • Henry94

    Comrade Stalin

    What in your view is the potential for OS independent on-line software making inroads into the market.

    Google are said to be looking seriously at taking on Microsoft in this area.

  • mwk

    Komrade S: Yes, OpenOffice will open all the MS stuff. I have been MicroSoft free for absolute years, and once you break the habit of gaming on a PC, then you have no need of windows at all. (KDE is very much windows-like I hear, I use gnome at work, but tend to be minimal at home. Aside from the indulgence of OSX. mmmm, OSX.)

    Henry: This whole application browser schtick has been touted for years, from thin-clients to supposedly OS independance. Won’t happen. Whay might happen could be the rise of some embedded ubiquitous OS, like symbian, or winCE, or something like that, which you can use on your phone/iPod/as-yet-unmade-device. Low-power, on-the-move, wireless computing, access the net anywhere.

    Google are more evil than Microsoft. People’s problem with MS is mere jealousy, jealous of their success and wealth. Google are devious and the new spawn of Satan.

  • Comrade Stalin

    mwk, I use Linux and KDE at work (Gnome doesn’t seem to perform so well) when I’m doing software development. When I’m doing planning or project management, I need Windows to run MS Project and MS Office, otherwise I can’t send documents and information to other workers and clients. That’s unfortunately the reality. I’d be happy to use open software if I didn’t have to deal with people who either won’t or can’t.

    Henry, I agree with MWK in that people have been talking about OS independence for a long time, but it has never truly happened. Java was supposed to be OS independent, write-once run-anywhere, but it turned out that it wasn’t. I’ve got severe doubts about Google’s applications over the web idea, I like to be able to use my computer when it isn’t connected to the network, and even when it is I don’t like to be completely reliant upon a remote resource. It just seems like shifting Microsoft’s monopoly around rather than getting rid of it.

  • G.M.C.

    Crataegus, thanks are due for your shareware additions, though I am nearly sure that the same programme can be used by the owner on multiple machines (I don’t know if there is a limit but I have read that three machines is sometimes a limit).

    There is only that if a computer is that of a son or daughter or spouse of the first computer software owner, in any household, the whole sum will need to be forked out again for the software, even if first owned by the first owner and passed on. You can’t make a gift of a license you keep.

    But, if getting a good deal for a laptop without software somewhere, you can use your home P.C. software on this. The same is also true them for a second non-portable home computer.

    BUT try openoffice, you might easily prefer it.

    Of course if you use it a reasonable amount, and it remains yours, then you don’t need to pay extra any time for other members of your family as they can operate the same software as you.

    It costs full price to give presents where software is concerned.

  • G.M.C.

    Hmmm. I don’t know about the laptop which is daddy’s, the daughter uses all of the time, daddy has paid for it and loaded his home P.C. software on it, naturally, but he only ever uses his laptop which belongs to his employers.

  • John East Belfast

    These are disgraceful comments from one supposedly studying law.

    They are totally indefensible and anyone who attempts to do so should be ashamed of themselves

  • Crataegus

    CS & MWK

    The problem I have with Unix is lack of good CAD and Graphics programmes but keep hoping. However for most users using word processors and spread sheets it would suffice. The problem generally is Microsoft products not opening other software than the other way round. I wonder why that is?

    It is not jealously that causes me to dislike Microsoft. I think their virtual monopoly is unhealthy, their software could be a lot better, and I have bitter experiences of previous incarnations of Windows particularly Windows 3 and Windows ME. When the new licensing procedure came out thought Linux was worth a try but until large corporations start switching the critical mass won’t be achieved.

    Agree with regards Google we really don’t want to go down that route. Power to the People.

    I would plead with people rather than use Pirate software try the cheaper alternatives like Open Office or Word Perfect. Support the competition rather than prop up the monopoly.

  • “Chris G, I hope you don’t have an eye on a political career”

    No, I have no interest in a political career. I am in the process of beginning my legal career.

    “Sinn Fein aspire to be in government in both parts of the island, and investors will not be keen to invest in a country whose government openly tolerates smuggling, counterfeiting and intellectual property theft.”

    These are my beliefs and not that of the party.

    “it is ridiculous for people to somehow imply that this common theft is part of the republican struggle”

    Nobody has implied that

    “These are disgraceful comments from one supposedly studying law”

    There is no “supposedly” about it, I am a final year law student. I have my legal institute exam next week.

  • Comrade Stalin

    You can’t make a gift of a license you keep.

    Software licences are usually not transferable. You are often not allowed to buy software and then sell your copy to someone else.

    The problem I have with Unix is lack of good CAD and Graphics programmes but keep hoping.

    Oh, I agree. In a lot of areas productivity applications are not very good on UNIX. It’s the ubiquitousness of Windows that ensures this. There’s nothing about UNIX that prevents these things being run, it just costs too much for companies to port them.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Chris, I didn’t say that you were suggesting that smuggling and theft were legitimate ways of opposing the British, but other people in the thread have.

    It’s about time Sinn Fein had a baby barrister.

  • “It’s about time Sinn Fein had a baby barrister”

    LOL, it won’t be me 😉

  • John East Belfast

    “I am a final year law student. I have my legal institute exam next week.”

    well here’s hoping they give you a question asking you to define theft.

  • Crataegus

    GMC

    I do use open office a good programme, and as you can imagine from postings I prefer to spread my suppliers and use shareware or alternative suppliers to the market leaders.

    As for Windows need it at work but machines all have Linux as well but at home Microsoft free zone. Puts a brake on gaming but even that is changing as junior seems hell bent on finding suitable solutions. If I have a bit of free time I will see if I can further reduce MS.

    On Antivirus software I have found Nod32 to be first class. It is not free but seems better than the well known programmes. Personally I don’t particularly mind paying for Software provided it works and I feel the supplier isn’t going to do something daft to extort extra money from me. Unfortunately I can’t find the words to vent my views on Autocad.

  • “well here’s hoping they give you a question asking you to define theft.”

    They won’t, that is not the sort of format the exam takes.

    That said I can provide you with one if you wish

    Section 1, Theft act 1968

    “A person is guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it.”

  • John East Belfast

    well would you agree it perfectly defines what goes on at your beloved Jonesboro market ?

  • No I wouldn’t

    No illegal trading takes place inside Jonesborough market.

    The RUC/PSNI even acknowledged that

    Hardly my “beloved” market when I don’t even go

  • John Pentland

    it was you who linked Jonesboro market in an article justifying copyright theft.

    However if you are touchy about the market then forget about it and tell me if your definition of theft above covers the counterfeiting of Microsoft products which you did not believe to be wrong

  • “it was you who linked Jonesboro market in an article justifying copyright theft”

    No I did not!

    anyway we spoke about how even as little as one year ago the Brits would never have dared to “patrol Jonesborough market”. While things in South Armagh have begun to change, i.e. the Brits and RUC/PSNI are getting braver in their patrolling technique; a lot of things remain the same

    Now, where did I mention Jonesborough market in relation to smuggling?

    “However if you are touchy about the market”

    I am not “touchy”, I am merely clarifying.

    “tell me if your definition of theft”

    It’s not my definition, it’s the legal definition.

    “above covers the counterfeiting of Microsoft products”

    Of course it would!

    “which you did not believe to be wrong”

    You are confusing my sense of right and wrong and the reality of the Law.

    I believe that abortion is wrong, as do a great many others but it is still legal.

    Morality has nothing to do with the law; it is a very personal concept.

  • John East Belfast

    Pro Theft doesnt quite have the same appeal as Pro Life so please dont hide behind the latter.

    There is universal acceptance of what contitutes murder but unfortunately the problem lies in what constitutes life.

    There is no confusion over theft and it doesnt depend on your morality – unless of course you have no morals when it comes to theft.

    The basic line is that Microsoft have something you want but you are not prepared to pay for it therefore you steal it instead – it is as simple as that.

    I would put it to you that such a morality is not acceptable to a law abiding citisen of any civilised community that values property rights and the rule of law. It is certainly unacceptable for any student and future practitioner of the law and for anyone remotely involved in democratic politics.

    i am off to bed now and I wont be near slugger for a while so I will give you the last word if yu want it but I would encourage you to take a good look at yourself.

  • “Pro Theft doesnt quite have the same appeal as Pro Life so please dont hide behind the latter.”

    I am not hiding behind anything; I was just trying to show you the difference between Morality and Law.

    “There is no confusion over theft”

    I never said there was

    “unless of course you have no morals when it comes to theft.”

    Morality has nothing to do with the definition of theft.

    Are you trying to pretend you are stupid?

    “The basic line is that Microsoft have something you want but you are not prepared to pay for it therefore you steal it instead”

    That is not what I said at all

    “I would put it to you that such a morality is not acceptable to a law abiding citisen of any civilised community that values property rights and the rule of law”

    You can put to me whatever you want; it doesn’t change the fact that morality is a very personal concept.

    I have my own morals as do you.

    You have no right to tell me what my morals should be.

    “It is certainly unacceptable for any student and future practitioner of the law and for anyone remotely involved in democratic politics.”

    Unacceptable to you perhaps but I determine what is acceptable for me.

    What has my being a Law student got to do with my views as to the rights and wrongs of smuggling?

    “future practitioner of the law and for anyone remotely involved in democratic politics.”

    Nonsense!

    I am a Republican as well but when I qualify that will not affect how I represent people who are not Republican.

  • Crataegus

    An interesting thought when is theft morally justifiable? I have visions of modern day Robin Hoods in green tights. But seriously there are times which might mitigate. Dire need, child starving that sort of thing or evil oppressor who is using brute force to oppress?

    Somehow I don’t see these applying to N.Ireland. If you can’t afford just don’t buy and choose something else.

  • Scotsman

    Section 1, Theft act 1968

    “A person is guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it.”

    Posted by Chris Gaskin on Dec 16, 2005 @ 01:08 AM

    Wow! I can’t believe they have put a split infinitive on the statute book. Sack the law officers!

  • Chris,

    It might be an idea to spend less time blogging and more time studying, if you intend to enter the law. I think you’ll find that it’s the Theft Act (Northern Ireland) 1969 that defines theft in this jurisdiction, not the legislation you quote.

  • Also Chris,

    You state that abortion is legal. This is incorrect.

    The law in this jurisdiction is as it was in Britain before 1967. The Offences Against the Person Act 1861 makes all abortions illegal. The only exception is in relation to the Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929, which was extended to Northern Ireland in 1945, and allows abortion to preserve a mother’s life.

    Again, I suggest if you’re going to publicise your engagement in the study of Northern Irish law, you should check that the statements you make as regards said law are correct.

    To think that a Sinn Féiner would spin fiction as fact…

  • “Chris,

    It might be an idea to spend less time blogging and more time studying, if you intend to enter the law. I think you’ll find that it’s the Theft Act (Northern Ireland) 1969 that defines theft in this jurisdiction, not the legislation you quote.”

    Firstly, pull your horns in wee man!!!

    I was asked for a definition of theft and I gave the definition.

    Are you disputing that this is the definition if theft?

    What difference is there between the definition of theft in the 1968 Act and the Theft Act (NI) 1969?

    NOTHING!!!!

    I never said that it was the 1968 Act that applied to the 6 counties, did I?

    state that abortion is legal. This is incorrect.

    The law in this jurisdiction is as it was in Britain before 1967. The Offences Against the Person Act 1861 makes all abortions illegal. The only exception is in relation to the Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929, which was extended to Northern Ireland in 1945, and allows abortion to preserve a mother’s life.

    Again, I suggest if you’re going to publicise your engagement in the study of Northern Irish law, you should check that the statements you make as regards said law are correct”

    Again, for your puerile mindset

    When did I say abortion was legal in this jurisdiction?

    Stop being a total prat!