A tale of two Irishmen…

George Best goes back into special care and Roy Keane leaves Manchester United. But is he heading for Celtic?

  • Kelvin Doherty

    Gutted!

    Probably United’s best ever player since Best left. Bet he’s undergoing a fitness test in Glasgow!

  • Ringo

    Stunned.

    No man is bigger than the club and all that, but this makes Jaap Stams removal look like it was done with the kid gloves.

    Never a dull moment with Roy… he’ll be missed.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Thug falls out with bully in corporate midtable irrelevance.

  • Donnie

    He’ll kick Barry Ferguson all round the park. Hopefully!

  • Kelvin Doherty

    Darth

    What’s Durkin and Trimble got to do with Keane….

  • harry flashman

    I was always highly amused how when he called Mick MacCarthy a “f***ing English c**t” everyone thought old Roy was such a likable scoundrel, now if an English manager had called him a “f***ing Irish c**t” the Irish media would have gone ballistic and no doubt the Brit ambassador would have been brought in for a dressing down like the time of that Eastenders programme. Isn’t Irish hypocrisy so attractive?

  • Henry94

    harry

    The quote was untrue. Everybody who was at the meeting concerned and has spoken on the subject(including McCarthy) has confirmed that. The report came from Independent Newspapers so was almost by definition untrue.

  • Ringo

    Harry –

    If you followed the story a bit closer at the time you’d have heard that the ‘english c***’ thing was made up. Just like the quotes about Rio’s wages recently.

  • *Harry –

    If you followed the story a bit closer at the time you’d have heard that the ‘english c***’ thing was made up. Just like the quotes about Rio’s wages recently.
    Posted by Ringo on Nov 18, 2005 @ 03:35 PM*

    …not the first time Harry’s been caught out slinging rumours and gossip. Just goes to show that the stereo-type of gossipers as only being sad, old women isn’t true.?!?1

  • Kelvin Doherty

    Some suggestions floating about that he was pushed and there was nothing ‘mutual’about his departure.

    http://www.redissue.co.uk

  • Good man Harry, that’s the stuff! LOL 🙂

    Keano has also been linked with the Ireland job!

  • tra g

    Keane as the new Ireland manager, now that would be interesting.

    The team clearly lacked drive and ambition under Kerr’s leadership, i can’t see the same being true under the influence of Keane.

    Venables or Keane ? No contest really.

  • What I find interesting about this is that according to the statements neither Ferguson nor Gill have said they are sad to see him leave. To me this suggests it perhaps was not mutual but thats only my opinion.

  • Keith M

    I couldn’t have said it better myseld Darth.

    As for Keane becoming the new manager of the Republic, surely this is a joke. Nobody player has treated the team and its supporters with the same disrespect as the Cork gurrier.

  • Dec

    Who would you prefer Keith? Johnny Logan?

  • Keith M

    Anyone Dec, and I mean ANYONE. Were the FAI to be so stupid (and God knows stupidity and the FAI are not strangers to each other) then I’m reclaiming my English granny and donning the three lions.

  • GavBelfast

    Keane for the Republic job – yes please!

    😉

    The Celtic link is interesting – haven’t he and Strachan got ‘history’?

  • Todd

    Keith,
    You don’t really go around telling people your Irish do you! ###

  • harry flashman

    No doubt Niall you can back up your assertion that I have previously been caught peddling rumours and gossip as opposed to political comments that didn’t conform to your worldview. Try playing the ball for a change Niall old chum, this is a footballing thread after all!

    As for the denials that he said what he said alot of Roy’s slavering fans leapt to his defence but given the man’s thuggish mentality I’m fully prepared to accept he was capable of racist slurs.

  • George

    Harry,
    thuggish mentality? You seem to be peddling again. Get off that bike and start walking, you’ll get further quicker.

    Before you mention Haaland, is Jack Charlton a thug for his little black book? Every great team needs an enforcer.

    You obviously haven’t seen Roy in action with the sick and the poor of his home town. True he was firebrand in his youth but he gave up the drink and has become a real role model for young people.

    Steve Mclaren, assistant England manager, said today he learnt from Roy what a real professional footballer was. Is he a thug supporter? No, he knows what he is talking about.

    If anyone is showing a criminal mentality it is you.

  • Harry Flashman

    Sheesh, amazing how the Keanophiles are blinded by their hero worship. He was a thug plain and simple and his book showed that he himself was proud of the fact. He deserted his country when he was needed most because of his prima donna mentality, it turned out he wasn’t needed anyway and the players who respected their jerseys played magnificently. Remember Beckham? Remember how he was lambasted for his sending off against Argentina in 98? Remember how with hard work and humility he got back to work and proudly played for his country again – compare and contrast that with Bonehead’s behaviour.

    And by the way don’t call me a criminal, ok? It’s not nice.

  • George

    Harry,
    I didn’t call you a criminal, I was saying if anyone was showing a criminal mentality it was you. A tad heavy I accept but it’s an emotive topic.

    A thug is generally a violent criminal. Keane is a lot of things but he isn’t a violent criminal.

    I think it for his country to decide whether he “deserted” them and the majority of Irish football fans think he didn’t.

    Is it just coincidence that it is people who don’t like Manu and/or don’t like the Republic of Ireland who find him offensive while the rest think of him as the most inspirational midfielder of his generation?

    I doubt it.

  • Keith M

    A thug “A tough or rowdy person”. QED

  • John East Belfast

    George

    “A thug is generally a violent criminal. Keane is a lot of things but he isn’t a violent criminal.”

    Was there not a controversial quote in his Biography illustrating his violent intentions against a Leeds opponent who’s career was almost ended ?

    Anyhow the main problem I have with him is, as pointed out by Keith above, walking out on his Country’s Team at the World Cup.

    That to me says everything about the guy – what more do you need to know ?

    The fact that he was allowed back on the team without even an apology to the Irish people shows the low principles of the FAI.

    If they now made him Manager then they are descending into the gutter.

    However when I see the attitude of the 26 Counties to people such as Charley Haugey et al then I realise such ideals really don’t matter when it comes to picking their Leaders and role models.

  • George

    What an unprejudiced, thoughtful and inciteful post John East Belfast. Thank you for that.

    Why restrict your hatred to Keane when you can smear the entire Irish people?

    I think it’s safe to say you certainly fall into the latter category I mentioned and most probably the former too.

  • John East Belfast

    George

    ok you tell me what it says about the FAI’s and the ROI Fan base’s attitude to itself and its former Manager McCarthy when Keane was allowed to walk back onto the team without an apology ?

    Were principals sacrificed or were they even thought about ?

    As a proud and long standing member of the G&WA if Healey or Gillespie had walked off on their country in similar circumstances they would not have been welcome back to Windsor Park in the same way.

    The fact that they are our best players wouldn’t have come into it.

    ie Principals would have prevailed.

    And Haughey and his coherts wouldn’t have been tolerated as long as they were either.

    Therefore you can take this whatever way you like but perhaps you should try and face up to the issues rather than hiding from them.

  • George

    John East Belfast,
    I recommend you get your hands on the 1/2 hour interview with Roy which was shown on RTE at the time. He didn’t hide. He explained himself better than I ever could.

    Afer this, the majority of fans understood his position, which is why he was welcomed back by the fans. He explained himself to the nation. He felt he didn’t need to apologise and the majority agree.

    As for the FAI, they are a complete bunch of wasters, in my view. This is the organisation that sent the players via London, Amsterdam and God knows where else so they could fly with KLM, who offered first class to them and their coterie.

    I don’t know what Haughey has to do with anything. It’s sad you do. It’s even sadder that you don’t even recognise how sad it is.

  • John East Belfast

    George

    “I don’t know what Haughey has to do with anything. It’s sad you do. It’s even sadder that you don’t even recognise how sad it is.”

    It doesn’t surprise me that you can’t see what Haughey has to do with it !

    To me it is not a major jump to see the connection between a nation that will continue to elect an unscrupulous individual to lead it and a nation that will dispense with principal to let another individual, who walked out on it, back into the team just because they thought he was one of their best players.

    The Haughey thing has always stuck in my mind because in late 1996 I was in Dublin on a business jolly and got speaking to some Irish Banking executives. I brought up Haughey and enquired how he got elected – this was in the very early days of the scandals emerging. There attititude was he was a “likeable rogue”, a “ducker and diver” the kind of business person the people liked.
    I know the political climate has since changed but the statements they made always stuck with me.
    This was at a time when the Conservative Govt was imploding because of all kinds of ‘scandal’ the brown envelope types were particulary pursued in the media.
    I often wandered what RTE and the rest of the media were doing in the seventies and eighties ?

    I could also bring up the defference to the Catholic Church during these periods and as the result the awful crimes that blind eyes were turned to – but I wouldn’t want to make you any sadder.

    If David Beckham got on a plane and flew home from an English world Cup tournament I would say that without a full apology to the English nation, Manager, FA, fellow players and staff he would not be wearing an English shirt today.

    The fact that Keane is raises questions of what is important to the Irish people.

    These are issues worth exploring without you feeling the need to patronise me.

    I didnt see the RTE broadcast where

    “He explained himself to the nation. He felt he didn’t need to apologise and the majority agree.”

    but George the fact that he got away with it does make me sad !

  • George

    John,
    to say the Keane issue is sign of an Irish national flaw, and to cite Haughey as further evidence of this, is a sad case of terribly inbuilt prejudice against an entire nation in my view.

    It might surprise you to know that the large majority of Irish people can’t stand Haughey but then again you would rather follow the flawed people line. Sure aren’t we all the same, slightly deviant and inferior Irish.

    If you don’t see the prejudice in your argument I can’t help you.

    Back to football.
    Your Beckham analogy doesn’t make sense.
    Keane was sent home, he didn’t walk out.

    So the question is whether he should apologise for being sent home?

    If the sending home was justified then yes, if not, then no.

    Keane gave the his explanation of his position to the Irish people. Where were you for the Keane incident and interview is up there with where were you when Kennedy was shot for Irish people.

    He explained his position and the majority of Irish fans accepted it.

    You haven’t even heard his position but feel in a position to pronounce judgement on it and him. That’s as close a definition of prejudice as you can get.

  • John East Belfast

    George

    All I have tried to do is explore and contrast certain issues that potentially higlight differences bewteen the general Irish approach and those of their neigbours.

    You are failing to address such issues and preferring to seek the sympathy and MOPE vote. All the prejudice examples introduced on this thread have been posted by you.

    If David Beckham has exited the World Cup following a foul mouthed attack on the country’s manager and a refusal to acknowledge his recognised authority then YES he would have to apologise before he pulled on a White shirt again.
    The English people fans and press would have expected it

    In ROI the Irish people, fans and press dont – to me that highlights a cultural difference worth discussing – but it is obviously too painful for you.

    As for the Irish people hating Haughey now – they didnt 20 & 30 years ago. The fact that he got away with it for so long also highlights a difference possibly worth exploring. Once again you choose not to.

    Sorry if you are so sensitive

  • George

    John,
    did you even bother reading my post?

    The issue is Keane and you don’t even know his position. Come back to me when you do. Then at least we can have a discussion on the facts.

    I have already explained how your David Beckham analogy makes no sense and you repeating it doesn’t change it. Keane was sent home, he didn’t walk out.

    You say he was sent home for a foul-mouthed tirade, I ask you to hear Keane’s version before passing judgement. When you have, let’s talk.

    You just can’t let Haughey go can you?

    “As for the Irish people hating Haughey now – they didnt 20 & 30 years ago.”

    Rubbish. He was the most disliked figure in Irish politics even then.

    He was the first FF Taoiseach to never win an overall majority from the Irish people. Why?

    Because the majority of Irish people didn’t trust him. But don’t let the facts get in the way of your prejudices.

  • John East Belfast

    George

    I don’t have time to go through Keane’s 2 hour RTE Interview to justify why he deserted his country in its hour of need – the fact that it took that amount of time smells of an awful lot of self justification and wriggling.

    Therefore in a nut shell please give me his justification so that I can appreciate why his behaviour causes you no concern whatsoever

    As for Haughey I keep coming back because once again you just can’t accept any criticism of the Irish people and their actions.

    Your

    “As for the Irish people hating Haughey now – they didnt 20 & 30 years ago.”

    Rubbish. He was the most disliked figure in Irish politics even then.

    He was the first FF Taoiseach to never win an overall majority from the Irish people. Why?”

    is the best bit of myopia I have read in a long time.
    Were FG, Irish Labour party et al not standing that time ?

    Anyhow the issue is crooks should be trounced at elections not elected Prime Minister !

    The fact that at the time you say he was not “trusted by the majority of the Irish people” make your position all the more ridiculous – but I bet you can’t see that !!

    How can someone who is not trusted by the majority of the Irish people be elected TS ?

    I would be interested in hearing your justification on that one also

  • George

    John,
    I just don’t thing Haughey is relevant to Keane.

    I see you don’t even want to hear the other side of the story and continue to harp on about deserting his country in its hour of need.

    Are you not reading my posts? For the third and final time, he was sent home. If you are sent home, you can’t desert.

    If you aren’t interested in even trying to understand the issue of Keane and the Irish team I don’t know what to say.

    You have made up your mind on Keane without hearing the facts. That is as clear a case of prejudice as you can get.

    You don’t have time to listen to Keane’s side of the story so your view is worthless because it is uneducated and based on limited information.

  • John East Belfast

    George

    You are obviously not reading my posts because you never respond to my questions

    eg I have asked you to give me Keane’s excuses and why you accept them but you are unable or unwilling to do so

    As for Haughey you state opinions and then when I respond you pick up your ball and run away and say I am not playing fair.

    It is very frustrating and I can’t even determine whether your view is useless because you wont elaborate on why you believe what you say.

    Why was Keane sent home ?
    Why did Charles Haughey become TS when the majority of Irish people did not trust him ?
    Why do the majority of Irish fans not feel they are owed an apology by Keane before he played for them again
    Why do the majority of Irish Fans feel that Keane should be their national football manager when he left/sent home/deserted at a crucial time during a previous campaign
    What does any of the above say about the Irish nation ?

  • George

    John,
    read them yourself. Why should I bother digging them out for you?
    You may be more inclined to engage on the facts if you have to find them yourself.

  • John East Belfast

    George

    You obviously cant remember his case too well yourself then but you are very quick to defend his actions

  • billy

    I think we can all think of instances of poor behaviour during or ‘related to’ football matches.

    Souness while managing in Turkey, Bingham urging n.i fans to song the billy boys louder during the game in 1993 or the many goings on within the Dutch camp over the years.

    You can read to much into it at times , move on.

  • George

    John,
    it’s just, as I said at the very begining, that Keane said it better than I ever could. That RTE interview at the time was broadcast before the 9pm news. Whatever was supposed to be on was simply scrapped.

    The power, honesty and emotion with which Keane spoke is what swung it for him with the fans. It was the most incredible piece of television you are ever likely to see, as long as you have an interest in the Republic of Ireland soccer team.
    I simply couldn’t do it justice here. If you can, get your hands on it and try imagine him as one of your own, a man who got you to a World Cup (the game against the Dutch, for example) through his sheer desire. We wouldn’t have been in South Korea/Japan without him.

    A great manager doesn’t send his best player home.

    Alan Hansen said tonight he was the best midfielder he has ever seen and he has seen some good ones.

    I would be interested to know your opinion on him as a player

  • Harry Flashman

    I too am a bit frustrated George, I, like John, didn’t see the programme to which you refer. I understand you can’t match Keane’s eloquence but can you at least make some attempt to explain his side of the story? We won’t mind if you aren’t able to express yourself as well as him, just give us a flavour of the main points.

    It is my understanding, as it appears that of John, that Keane was deeply unhappy with the arrangements for the team training and accommodation. That much we understand but conventional wisdom has it, and here is where we would like you to put us right if we got it wrong, that there was also a major personality clash with McCarthy which boiled over into a foul mouthed tantrum during which he abused his manager. He was approached by either officials or other players to apologise for this outburst, he refused to do so and was consequently told to leave. In my opinion justifiably.

    Now like I say if we have this conventional wisdom all wrong then I for one would like to hear the real story. Can you help me out? I’m not trying to be funny I would like to understand. Was Keane’s version backed up by others on the other side of the argument, ie McCarthy and the FAI officials? Or was it just his version of events?

    I would genuinely like to know, so can you summarise where we’ve got it wrong?

  • Keith M

    “…Keane’s eloquence…”, stop extracting the urine, I nearly spat my cornflakes all over my keyboard, while laughing at this.

  • George

    As I said, I can’t do him justice but Keane had been going on for years about preparations, facilities etc. and about things like the blazers getting the FAI to pay for their wives to go first class while the players sat back in economy.

    Fail to prepare? Prepare to fail.

    The players had been told at Niall Quinn’s testimonial a week earlier that Saipan was for relaxation more than preparation but nobody told Roy.

    He arrived in Saipan to find there wasn’t even a football to kick and the pitch was a danger to play on, hard as a bone. There was no medical equipment either.

    The players were going out getting pissed every night and Keane said this was all unacceptable for a team supposed to be preparing for the World Cup.

    Naturally, he was quite fortright when he said all this. The FAI had been doing this crap for years and this was the final straw.

    The independent Genesis Report, which looked into the affair, slammed the FAI not Keane.

    Brendan Menton, general secretary, resigned as a result.

  • watchmaker
  • Keane almost single-handedly got Ireland to the WC, Micko wouldn’t have been able to send him home if Keane hadn’t have got the managerial genius there.

    JEB

    What are you trying to do here? There are dodgy politicans the world over, i don’t think all Americans condone theft as they didn’t seem to mind that Bush won an election when the votes hadn’t been counted. The Republic was and is a young nation, a dodgy politican helped a few deals go smoothly and a few dodgy businessmen, (are there any other type) got rich too. I mean it wasn’t like Haughey was running a world-wide slavery triangle, a few nations have done that in their infancy, imagine the citizens of that country allowing it to happen, must be barbarians. Hearsay tells me one of the young nations had it abolished…after it had fattened itself upon it of course

  • George

    Keithm,
    Keane is a very eloquent man. I hope I haven’t ruined your dinner.

    I fully agree with Cladycowboy. He was awesome in that qualifying campaign.

    Watchmaker,
    thanks for finding that. Makes the eyes well up even 3 years later….

  • jason mcateer

    JEB

    “As a proud and long standing member of the G&WA if Healey or Gillespie had walked off on their country in similar circumstances they would not have been welcome back to Windsor Park in the same way.

    The fact that they are our best players wouldn’t have come into it.”

    The fact Roy Keane is a world class player and mick mcarthy was a second class manager may have had something to do with it.

    If Healey or Gillespie walked out i’m sure there was someone just as mediocre to replace them.

  • Mick Fealty

    Personally speaking, I had a very high regard for Keane as a player. Until that is, the Haaland incident. There is no doubting his talent then or now. But I struggle to find sympathy with a man who can do what he did, and then deny it.

  • darth rumsfeld

    so. it’s true- Mick can say something nice about the evil brute , City are after him then :0)

  • Mick Fealty

    Good luck to them if they do, but it would be a quick hit for two seasons before Keane finally bows out of playing. But at this stage, I’d say if his ego is unmanageable by Fergie, Psycho’s would have his work cut out to keep him in order.

    It struck me that the real underlying truth is that he’s getting older, and is asking younger, better players to turn in the kind of performance that he’s no longer capable of. Perhaps he should have left earlier, like Denis Irwin.

  • * Posted by harry flashman on Nov 19, 2005 @ 02:13 AM
    No doubt Niall you can back up your assertion that I have previously been caught peddling rumours and gossip as opposed to political comments that didn’t conform to your worldview. Try playing the ball for a change Niall old chum, this is a footballing thread after all! *

    A cara, indeed this is a football thread (on a NI politics and culture site) and that’s why it’s necessary to highlight the disgraceful Dunphy-esque postings such as your previous…..

    *…I asked what was your basis for implying that a SF leader was involved. Where’s the ‘net-link? Can’t you accept that if you spout something then I might ask for the basis of your claim? Do I have to spell out a request for support of a statement in a form more simple then black and white type? Unless you produce something tangible then I consider your postings irrelevant and consign them to the dustbin of rumour. Too many stereo types and myths exist in the sick counties – now I know where they originate….
    Posted by Niall on Nov 17, 2005 @ 03:51 PM *

    http://www.sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/trinity_ogra_in_trouble_over_thatcher_campaign/

    didn’t Georgie Best advocate an all ireland soccer team when NI was at it’s zenith as it would give a greater population of players? I think he was greatly chastised at the time.

    Subsequently NI performances have deteriorated while the Rep went to three world cups.

  • RedPaul

    Having seen Keano play on a number of occassions for Man Utd, I feel priveleged to have watched a football legend, an immense talent, a leader of his teams and a hero to the fans. I don’t give a toss about some of the guff spouted here. His football is enough to ensure his legendary status for Utd.

  • The Lush

    John
    How can you justify electing DUP people. Before you make broad statements against the Irish people why not look at the loon’s some sections of our fellow confused Irish elect. Bible bashers, Gay haters etc. Come on now lad be fair