Orange to set out stall…

A DAY later than expected, the Orange Order is to hold a Press conference. While Grand Master Robert Saulters may have condemned the violence, the most senior Orangeman in Belfast has refused to. The Order is unlikely to accept any blame, but with it’s reputation tarnished again, it will have some explaining to do. Just don’t let Dawson Bailie do it, who appears to have inherited the PR skills of Harold Gracey.

  • 9countyprovience

    “I’m not condemning anything at all at this moment in time . . . the people in my eyes to blame is the Secretary of State, the Chief Constable and the Parades Commission.”

    Whats the bet that this will be the official line too, with some mention of ‘Sinn fein/IRA’?

  • Macswiney

    Dawson Baillie’s ‘performance’ during his BBC Newsline interview on Monday will rank as one of the funniest incidents in local political history. Not only were his answers barely literate, but the interruption by his equally gormless neighbour had us rolling in the aisles. As his neighbour referred eloquently to “them uns” over and over again, Dawson and (bizarrely) the BBC reporter, gave him licence to stage a one man show that Peter Kay would have been proud of. I want to know when the repeat is scheduled…

  • smcgiff

    At least he looked dignified in the Everton jersey. I think sporting attire add character to balding svelte challenged men in their fifties.

  • Phiilip

    Well the best way to destroy an organisation is from within and i think these cittens are doing a good job.
    Its nice to know the guy with the blue OO collarette that was seen welding a de facto offensive weapon – ceremonial sword – was invisable to the grand master. This guy really must quit.

  • Dr Snuggles

    At today’s Orange Order “media event”, when Dawson Baillie was challenged about a photograph of a Orangeman holding a brick, his response was “he’s not holding it over his head”.

    He’s a good and true Christian… Oops, sorry, I mean he’s a cretin.

  • smcgiff

    “This guy really must quit.”

    Spoilsport!!!

  • Donnie

    smcgiff,

    The fella who joined in basically sums up loyalists to me.

    “Themmuns have everything so they do, and we have naffin”.

    Erm okay what exactly do themmuns have that you don’t?

    “I don’t know but themmuns have it cos the boy on the tv says it. Themmuns are eroding our culture so they are – enough is enough”.

    Okay, so the Parades Commission have determined that a handful of OO parades aren’t allowed to march through nationalist areas but considering there are more OO marches than ever before and the Ulster-Scots is burdgeoning and receiving money hand over fist tell me how your culture is being eroded…..

    “But themmuns are closing down our watchtowers and police stations and RIR barracks.”

    Yes but these aren’t exactly cornerstones of Orange/Protestant culture are they – they’re the security forces and as part of the normalisation process you don’t need army and police on every street corner….

    “But themmuns……..”

  • Denny Boy

    I loved the way he refused on Monday to give what he called a “knee-jerk reaction” to Saturday’s outrages, promising one in “a day or two”, ie today, Wednesday.

    This has to be the slowest knee-jerk in the history of living things. Even the diploducus was quicker than that when struck sharply below the patella.

  • Alan2

    From what is emerging it seems the police handling is largely to blame (although the rioters must be accountable for their actions). Apparently the parade proceeded the parades commission route through the Mackies factory but the police only let through half the parade. The first half stopped after a while when they realised this and waited…and were pelted with stones. The second half of the parade that was stopped turned around and marched the reverse route (technically illegal as it was not the notified route) and the police stopped them…and a few other things happened and then it just exploded.

  • overhere

    So it was all a misunderstanding Alan2 lucky those wheelie bins were handy and what you know full of petrol bombs !!

  • 9countyprovience

    “This has to be the slowest knee-jerk in the history of living things.”

    Well, A lot of the OO are old and probably have arthritis. Give tham a chance!

  • smcgiff

    ‘It was in fact a Dublin Rangers Supporters Club polo shirt Dawson had attired himself in.’

    Ah – Makes more sense. Surprised, though, that one could tell it was a Dublin supporters club from the TV coverage.

  • Dr Snuggles

    “Apparently the parade proceeded the parades commission route through the Mackies factory but the police only let through half the parade.”

    No. The Parades Commission determination was that the Orangemen could go through the Mackies site, but not “supporters”. Everyone concerned was aware of this. When you talk about “half the parade”, you mean that hangers-on, including loyalist drug bosses, were not allowed to proceed.

    The idea that the police are to blame for a 22-month-old child getting a fractured skull, or a busload of pensioners being robbed etc etc is so patently ridiculous that it’s astonishing that it has to be explained to anyone.

    The Orange Order publicly called for people to come onto the streets. I was in Great Victoria Street on Saturday afternoon when that call was heeded by a mob of loyalists walking through four lanes of traffic to block roads at Shaftesbury Square. The sense of intimidation was palpable. I for one was very pleased to see the police arrive.

    The notion that the police were heavy-handed is laughable. I believe the police reacted with startling restraint under live fire.

    As has often been said before, the Orange Order is the only organisation in the world from which you will be expelled for marrying a Catholic, but not for murdering one. ‘Nuff said.

  • El Matador @ El Blogador

    …And the Perrier Award for Oustnading Comedy goes to… The Orange Order! Those guys have me laughing my head of with their skewed take on life. What a giggle.

  • Denny Boy

    Dr Snuggles

    “As has often been said before, the Orange Order is the only organisation in the world from which you will be expelled for marrying a Catholic, but not for murdering one.”

    Rubbish! You’re forgetting Al-Qaeda.

  • Donnie
  • Denny Boy

    Thanks for the link, Donnie.

    For me the most chilling Saulterism was: “Perhaps the most worrying thing about the weekend’s events is the widespread feelings of frustration within the Protestant community.”

    Presumably this means that woe betide the rest of Belfast when the prods can’t get it up any more 😉

  • George

    The Orange Order has already set out its stall for all to see, why wait for the smokescreen?

    The Orange Order has once again made it clear what it will do if the law of the land, the police, stops it from doing what it wants to do.

    Members take off their collarettes and start attacking the police in mob formation, providing cover for others to fire on and try and murder said police officers.

    Here we stand – Here we riot – Here we are accomplices to attempted murder – We can do no other.

    The head of the Police service of Northern Ireland, Hugh Orde, says the Orange Order bore “substantial responsibility” for the riots.

    Remember this is the same man who said the IRA was responsible for the Northern Bank and nobody from the unionist community doubted him then. Why should we doubt him now?

    Have unionists echoed his views? Not on your nelly.

    And why? Because most unionists believe they know why this happened so there’s nothing to explain.

    Why state the obvious?

    They know and for them it’s understandable. Not justifying of course, just understanding.

    But what about the rest of us, the non-unionists of this world, you’re average English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish person. You know, the overwhelming majority on these islands.

    If we don’t know why then we are merely showing how we haven’t been listening to the “concerns” of the unionist community for the last few years.

    That probably makes us all future targets for the followers of The Shining Orange Path movement.

    They will make us listen, even if they have to kill those whose job it is to protect us. If that doesn’t work, they’ll probably move on to us.

    But sure don’t we all deserve it for not listening to the coherent arguments put forward by the Orange Order over recent years?

    I didn’t know unionists only wanted to bring back the RIR regiments so their community could murder them.

    The Orange Order has let down the Whiterock Community in the most disgusting way imagineable. It can’t be defended, only castigated.

    It has basically told one of Northern Ireland’s most deprived Protestant areas that its “future”, whatever that is if you look at their miserable present, can only be assured by orchestrated violence against the state – their British state.

    They have intertwined Protestant culture with mob rule like only a group with their community power could.

    The Orange Order showcased its future for Northern Irish Protestant culture for the world at the weekend.

    I can see the foreign investors rushing to inject money into areas like Whiterock after what they saw.

    The Orange future is really bright for those people. Who needs an education or jobs when you can have hate and violence?

    The Orange Order isn’t protecting Northern Protestant culture, it is destroying huge swathes of it, complicit by its actions in the handing over of entire communities to the mercy of the unionist gunman.

    You couldn’t make it up: Shoot, bomb and riot your way back to the negotiating table even though you don’t want to negotiate anything with the other community anyway.

    Maybe they want to negotiate under what circumstances the Irish people will be deemed worthy of their respect or under what circumstances their own British government can tell them what to do.

    They’ll be talking to themselves unless they think attempting to kill British soldiers and police will endear them the British public.

    I suppose the fact nobody is listening to unionist “concerns” means more and more people will soon become legitimate targets for the bombs and shootings.

  • 9countyprovience

    “Grand Master Robert Saulters said the Order regarded itself as blameless. He condemned the riots, but accused police of being “aggressive and arrogant”.
    That should be the new Oxford dictionary’s definition of irony.

    “The extent to which ordinary, decent and reasonable men have been goaded into behaving out of character by the authorities and their insistence on appeasing and rewarding nationalists at the expense of loyalists.”
    Orinary, decent people don’t act like that no matter how much ‘goading’ there is. Piss poor excuse. He must have to wear a peg on his nose when he opens his mouth.

    “They may have protected themselves but there certainly wasn’t violence. If a policeman comes at you with a baton you’ll certainly put up your hand or something to stop them,”
    Now the footage that I’ve seen over the last few days consisted of a ‘man’ (probably should say scumbag)in full orange gear getting in a crafty shoulder from behind on a PSNI man. Is sucker punching a form of protection?

    The North and West Belfast Parades and Cultural Forum, a loyalist umbrella group, blamed the trouble on the government and the Parades Commission [see first post]and said further actions “are being planned by our community”.
    Expect more looting and rioting so.

    “deep sense of alienation”
    When you turn your back on a process that’s what happens.

    The only thing that suprised me about that press conference is that ‘Sinn Fein/IRA’ wasn’t blamed.

  • darthrumsfeld

    “At least he looked dignified in the Everton jersey. I think sporting attire add character to balding svelte challenged men in their fifties.”

    sorry, smcgiff, Dawson modelled the polo shirt of the Dublin Loyal rangers Supporters Club. Got one myself and it looks reet natty, though on a slightly less portly frame

  • Dandyman

    How exactly are the Nationalist Community being appeased and rewarded at the expense of Loyalists? The GFA was negotiated, albeit at an excruciatingly slow pace. it is gradually being implemented, albeit at an excruciatingly slow pace. The IRA delayed decommissioning for ages and unionists screamed foul. Now they have pledged to move ahead with decommissioning. The British Government take down a couple of watchtowers and announce that if the IRA keeps to its pledge to decommission, more will come down AS THE PROCESS OF ‘NORMALISATION’ in society mainfests itself. That’s called negotiation, not appeasement. It’s what civilised adults do.

    Instead of celebrating ‘victory’, like they were doing a couple of months ago, when they did their very best to convince all who would listen that the IRA’s statement was a humiliating surrender and capitulation, what do they do?

    They wreck their own gaff. Nice one boys.

  • smcgiff

    I’m sure you look stunning, Darth, but it begs the question does Belfast not have its own loyal supporters club?

    Who were the lucky boys last night! (And don’t say Liverpool!)

  • brian

    i now live in florida and have had so many laughs at what the loyal OO are doing to the fabric of their own pittiful society…… they still do not realise that the prod domination of the nationalist people has long since ended and now they are being left behind as everyone moves on to a much more prosperous future………

  • Antrim Springfarm

    The OO HAVE condemned the violence. When have SF condemned the IRA violence? which is way beyond anything that happened from the OO. Yet every time Catholics vote in their droves to support SF/IRA. One word Hypocrisy! If you can’t condemn ALL violence then don’t condemn what suits you.

    If every poster above can catagorically condemn the IRA violence then we’ll listen.

  • lib2016

    ….or you’ll burn down your own areas, again?

    Would you ever catch yourself on?

  • Denny Boy

    Antrim Springfarm

    “The OO HAVE condemned the violence.”

    But refuse to accept the blame for it. I condemn the violence in Iraq for instance, even though I personally have nothing to do with it. The OO, on the other hand, attacked the police.

    “When have SF condemned the IRA violence? which is way beyond anything that happened from the OO.”

    The OO purports to be a Christian organization, not a terrorist one. Christian orders are not suppose to attack the state authorities.

    “Yet every time Catholics vote in their droves to support SF/IRA. One word Hypocrisy! If you can’t condemn ALL violence then don’t condemn what suits you.

    If every poster above can catagorically condemn the IRA violence then we’ll listen.”

    I personally condemn all violence and “catagorically” condemn IRA violence.

    Will this do?

  • Dandyman

    I categorically condemn all IRA violence.

    I think it is a great thing for NI that they have called a final and permanent cessation of all operations and pledged to become a law-abiding organisation.

    However, when the British government didn’t take down ALL watchtowers and order ALL troops home IMMEDIATELY after the IRA issued that statement, did the nationalist estates riot for 4 days?

  • Antrim Springfarm

    Thanks for that Denny boy. Yes I agree the OO has to accept a level of responsibilty – knowing the presvious situation in N/W and the level of UVF activity. They were niaeve if they thought that a re-routed parade would not result in trouble. But if nationalists cannot allow a parade what hope is their for a united Ireland on the ground?
    What is so offensive from a christian parade?

  • George

    Christians don’t parade with rocks Antrimfarm unless none of the Orange Order have sinned.

    If you believe Whiterock to have been a Christian parade why was it that other Christians don’t feel the need to shelter others who try murder police officers when their wishes aren’t met?

    Where is the Christianity in demanding your rights to walk and resorting to violence when your demands aren’t met?

    Also, if the Orange Order refuses to accept the legal rulings of the British state what hope have we of it being a lawful organisation in an Irish one?

    A united Ireland doesn’t want to accept Orange thuggery any more than the current partitioned one.

    It’s no surprise that the Church of Ireland has washed its hands of the organisation and that it was Presbyterian and Church of Ireland Churchmen who scuppered plans for the group to march in Dublin and Cork in recent years.

    Or as the COI itself put it after the shame of Drumcree: “The Church of Ireland and the Orange Order have parted company”.

    When the Orange Order learns to respect the rule of law then maybe we can move on and maybe other Protestants on this island will start to look upon them as a Christian organisation rather than a sectarian group which refuses to enter “the new era of rapprochement and mutual respect between the denominations”.

    It used to be the main recruiting agent for the A,B and C-Special militia but now seems to be doing the job for the UVF as it looks to line up child soldiers to the cause.

  • Antrim Springfarm

    A few members of the OO reacted violently after SEVERE provocation. It was the UVF/UDA who caused the mayhem. Why not blame them?
    SF are seen as the flipside to how you portray the OO – worse even.

  • Dandyman

    “What is so offensive from a Christian Parade?”

    Absolutely nothing, when it is not forced down a route where residents feel it is sectarian trimphalism dressed up as culture in a way that is deliberately designed to belittle them in a country where they were treated as second-class citizens for decades, especially when an organisation that was set up specifically to adjudicate in areas of contentious parades, has decided that it won’t hurt the OO to divert their parade by less than 100 yards.

    And if they are so Christian, why don’t they turn the other cheek, like Christians are always supposed to do?

    I missed that passage in the Bible where Christ says to the apostles:

    “…and lo, shouldst thou ever be prevented
    from marching down the queen’s highway in an orange sash, a little black bowler hat with a brass band following behind thee, thou must smite all around, in every direction, and lay waste to all that is, and then blame averyone and anyone else for provoking thee and try to murder those who try to keep the peace, even though the parade was only re-routed by 100 yards”

  • George

    Antrimfarm,
    the Orange Order called out the Unionist Dogs of War as they have done so many times before and then they try wash their hands of it when mayhem breaks out.

    It doesn’t wash with me or the American government or the PSNI or the NI Secretary of State.

    I blame them for last weekend just like I blame them for the murderous consequences of Drumcree.

    Sure, this chaos might and most likely would have happened anyway as unionists are being lied to by their supposed leaders on a daily basis but, as the Orange Order sparked it off it shoulders the blame.

    Unionist leaders take some of the blame too but that’s another point.

    We could have been talking totally differently if an Old Firm match or some other such thing sparked it but the Orange Order stepped up to the plate with the lighting match as they have done on so many other occassions.

    That is why I blame them. I also blame them because if they lived up to their supposed Christian values, they could be a force for good rather than giving platforms, solace and cover to thugs and murderers time and time again.

    By their actions, they have all but sold the people of Whiterock to the gunman to try and maintain what they believe to be their controlling stake in Northern Ireland rather than showing cultural leadership.

    They are bankrupting the very people they claim to represent and need to be held to account.

    Unionism’s failure to hold them to account is merely proof of that ideology’s failure to show even the mildest bit of accountability.

    You mention provocation?

    Do you believe police officers deserved the death penalty that many unionists tried to exact on them over the weeekend for enforcing the rule of law?

    What did they do to deserve a crushed skull or bullet in the head? What was the provocation? Enforcing the rule of law against the will of unionist protestors?

    Is that enough for a death sentence?

    Do you believe the provoked Orange Order members or those in the background had the right to impose it? Do they have a mandate for such a sentence?

    SF have nothing to do with last weekend. We’ll have plenty of other opportunities to discuss them.

  • Antrim Springfarm

    George the OO reacted with the same force as the PSNI used on them. But simple and plain it should be condemned. You can’t say for sure how you would react in the same circumstance.

  • grimesy

    AS

    Who do you believe started the trouble – PSNI or the OO/UVF? (a short acronym for an answer will suffice)

    If footage of the PSNI attacking “innocent” OO member’s using ceremonial swords exists, I’ll agree to your point of view. Until then, along
    with Messers Bailie & Saulter, labelling you a
    “cretin” seems most apprpopriate.

  • George

    Antrim Springfarm,

    The Orange Order aren’t allowed use force, the police are. Or have the unionist people now joined the “police aren’t representative” block?

    There is no mandate for the Orange Order to use violence. They knew full well their actions would result in the attempted murder of police officers and soldiers.

    They have 40,000 members out of a UK population of 60 million. They have 40,000 members out of an NI population of 1.7 million. Yet they hold everyone to ransom.

    If the Orange Order don’t believe in the absolute authority of the state, as you seem to imply, fair enough, but don’t be surprised if the state then decides to treat them as the subversives/insurgents they are.

    What did they expect the police to do? Buckle as they have done many times before? Support them as in the good old days when it was their chief recruiting agent?

    It wasn’t right for the police to buckle or support their actions in the past and it wouldn’t have been right last weekend.

    What next for the Orange Order if the police continue to provoke them by upholding the rule of law? More violence? Murder?

  • springfarm

    Grimsey,
    In my view the police approach ignited the trouble. However as I have said before it was niaeve of the OO to think there would not be trouble if the march was re-routed.

    You then seen a few oo members attacking police – THIS WAS WRONG. But how many were doing this? I would say there was at worst case a handful – not the majority.
    The UVF/UDA then exploited the situation and clearly had things planned.

  • Alan2

    “The idea that the police are to blame for a 22-month-old child getting a fractured skull, or a busload of pensioners being robbed etc etc is so patently ridiculous that it’s astonishing that it has to be explained to anyone.”

    Those incidents happened on Sunday did they not? The Order has to accept alot of the responsibility for calling people onto the streets but the riots were a symptom of greater problems…………

  • rod

    The problem being that unionists can’t decide which problem.

    It has changed that many times over the last few days.

    First it was the re-routing of a parade,then Sean Kelly,then under investment…..

    Who knows, perhaps it was just violence for violence’s sake

  • no-hope-here

    If the orange order bear significant responsibility for the violence which has been perpetrated on the whole people of Northern Ireland, should Hain have prescribed the Orange Order.

    In defence of Mr saulters, it is not yet a criminal offence to be a blithering idiot, and Mr Baillie is still working hard on the english lessons. It is reassuring to know the calibre, impartiality and quality of the RUC reservists.

    Did anybody notice the view of the Police Federation? In true style, reflecting the views of the grass roots PSNI officers, they have lodged a complaint with the Health and Safety executive, complaining that on the 12th July riots in Ardoyne , they were not allowed to fire enough plastic bullets.

    Long live the impartial PSNI.

  • Alan2

    “No. The Parades Commission determination was that the Orangemen could go through the Mackies site, but not “supporters”. Everyone concerned was aware of this. When you talk about “half the parade”, you mean that hangers-on, including loyalist drug bosses, were not allowed to proceed.”

    Not from what I have been told, perhaps that was the intention…. but.. apparently the gates were shut and alot of lodges paraded the reverse route to try and meet up with the other half as they had been blocked.

  • Alan2

    “12th July riots in Ardoyne , they were not allowed to fire enough plastic bullets.

    Long live the impartial PSNI”

    Are you saying that the police officers should just stand there and take it as blast bombs, petrol bombs and bricks, bottles and golf balls are hurled at them? They were softly softly in ardoyne resulting in over 100 officers being injured. They replied in kind last weekend in a similar if not more so dangerous situation firing over 400 plastic bullets. Discrepencies? Nah.
    I am a little worried about the reported conduct of some officers but i would not deny them the right to protect themselves and the wider community in such dangerous circumstances by using appropriate and reasonable force such as the attenuated rounds.

  • Headmelter

    Dandyman,

    I missed that passage in the Bible where Christ says to the apostles:

    “…and lo, shouldst thou ever be prevented
    from marching down the queen’s highway in an orange sash, a little black bowler hat with a brass band following behind thee, thou must smite all around, in every direction, and lay waste to all that is, and then blame averyone and anyone else for provoking thee and try to murder those who try to keep the peace, even though the parade was only re-routed by 100 yards”

    Funny, I missed that passage too, must be in the six county ‘protestant’version. Mind you if I had found it, it would have made my RE classes much more interesting.

    Classic.

  • seve

    The parade had already broken the parades commission determination prior to reaching Workman Avenue.

    Several of the bands accompanying the lodges carried paramilitary flags and one lodge carried a bannerette commemorating uvf killer Brian Robinson.

    The bannerette had been mentioned in 2003 by the parades commission.
    The orange order said this uvf banner would not be carried by the lodge again.

    These are both breaches of the rulings layed down by the parades commission

    This off course was prior to orange order members attacking police lines with ceremonial swords and missiles

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Antrim: “The OO HAVE condemned the violence. When have SF condemned the IRA violence? which is way beyond anything that happened from the OO. Yet every time Catholics vote in their droves to support SF/IRA. One word Hypocrisy! If you can’t condemn ALL violence then don’t condemn what suits you.”

    While you’re whinging on about what rotters those nasty IRA are, can we please have an apology for the great hunger, the Ulster plantation and its associated ethnic cleansing, Oliver F. Cromwell and his great Hibernian adventure, et. al. and ad nauseum?

  • gut

    Loyalists are causing havoc on the streets tonight.

    Whats the excuse this time ?

    Re-routing, Sean Kelly, police tactics, urban deprivation

    Or maybe just the uvf getting piss*d off because the police are arresting their gunmen and blast bombers

  • Reader

    Dread Cthulhu: While you’re whinging on about what rotters those nasty IRA are, can we please have an apology for the great hunger, the Ulster plantation and its associated ethnic cleansing, Oliver F. Cromwell and his great Hibernian adventure, et. al. and ad nauseum?

    I doubt ‘antrim’ was involved in any of those. Good luck in tracking down the people who were.