Blackmen return to Donegal in peace…

Before it passed unremarked about, the last of the summer’s big Orange Loyal Order marches, took place on Saturday without any significant disruptions, (apart from the Armagh/East Tyrone demonstration) of the Royal Black Preceptories. The ‘Blackmen’s’ Parade in Donegal, the first since the 1930s passed peacefully in Raphoe. Maybe some of them spent the rest of the weekend chilling at the Fleadh Ceoil up the road in Letterkenny?

  • slug

    I hope these occations are enjoyable for both sides. It is nice to see the respect that goes both ways.

  • suffolk_west_belfast

    It’s just a terrible pity that the drunken republican scum in Castlederg who for some reason thought that beating up a 75 year old protestant would further their twisted cause, didn’t have the same respect as the Roman Catholics in Raphoe.

    These most tollerant and respectful of citizens should be both praised and exaulted.

  • Alan2

    There was also an arson attempt of the Garvagh Church tent at the demonstration field in Raphoe the night before the parade and some grafitti but it was played down.

  • Alan2

    Also our parade through our home town in the evening, marching up the main street which is neither Protestant or Catholic and has no residential housing…as we marched passed a couple of pubs a few people convieniently crossed the road from one pub to another on the other side of the street passing through the middle of the band. Nobody took the bait and as commo sense would dictate we ignored them and continued up the road playing our hymns.

    Indeed the parade in the Republic had no Union flags at the request of the organisers since the parade was in the Republic, although the Northern Ireland flag was carried by some preceptories. And bands did not carry any flags as is usual practise for RBP parades around the province.

  • slug

    That’s Great Alan2. (Apart from the arson attempt on your tent).

    I really look forward to future times when the traditional parades are no longer a matter of controversy and everyone can relax about these things.

  • Dick Turpin

    “a few people convieniently crossed the road from one pub to another on the other side of the street passing through the middle of the band.”

    I didn’t think anyone had a monopoly on the ‘queens’ highway and anyone has the ‘right’ yo walk.

  • fair_deal

    Dick Turpin

    “I didn’t think anyone had a monopoly on the ‘queens’ highway and anyone has the ‘right’ yo walk.”

    A legally notified parade has precendent. The people who walked through the ranks were committing a criminal offence “hindering a legal procession”.

  • raff

    From the RBP mission statement to
    ‘Continue and further develop social and responsible citizenship’.

    How is that particular mission furthered by parading through the streets of Raphoe in the Republic?

    I was not aware that the RBP was attempting to build better social contacts with the Irish Free State, fair play to them.

  • Alan2

    Dick Turpin. Not according to the Parades commission, SF nad numerous other people who seem oblivious to the fact that by following a policy of you can go here but not here and this is such and such a type of areas that they are actually RESPONSIBLE for creating increased segregation in our society rather than the tolerance and reconcilliation that they are actually aiming for.

  • Headmelter

    FD
    Even if it is the ‘traditional route’ to get to the next pub? 😉

  • Dick Turpin

    Alan2
    most catholic/nationalist/republican citizens see orange/black order parades as intimidatory. As far as i am aware there are very few ‘contentious’ parades trapesing through unionist areas.
    When one side of the divide find it difficult to become tolerant and accept that their triumphalist parades are not welcome it requires people who represent these communities to make that communities voice heard.
    To be honest I couldn’t care if the orders marched every day as long as it was not in my locality and didn’t have an effect on my life.

  • Alan2

    Then you really cannot complain about sectarian attacks on minority communities as each is the threat to each others “territory”.

  • D’Oracle

    What exactly is a perceptory ;it sounds a bit medieval?!. Why or in what sense is it black ?

  • yerman

    Preceptory refers to the use of Knight as members of the Royal Black Institution are called Sir Knights.

    It is in no sense ‘black’ other than it happens to bear the name Black Preceptory. It is a bit superficial to call the Black Institution a more ‘religious and dignified’ version of the Orange Institution but in some ways it isn’t a bad description.

  • Dick Turpin

    “Then you really cannot complain about sectarian attacks on minority communities as each is the threat to each others “territory”.”

    If someone is living and minding their own business in a particular area where is the offence? I can’t remember too many protestations about parades in the Ahogill area for example.

    When hundreds of people attend a ‘procession’ through an area where they are not welcome I don’t see it as a threat to their ‘territory’ more of an unwanted and intimidating interruption to their lives.

  • Gonzo

    It would seem that there was more than one exception to the rule at the weekend, with a republican attack on a Castlederg RBP parade.

    Four in court today.

  • fair_deal

    headmelter

    “Even if it is the ‘traditional route’ to get to the next pub?”

    Total abstinence is unbiblical you know 😉

  • Elvis Parker

    Castlederg incident very unfortunate. My understanding is that a number of people spent a bit to long in a bar and encouraged a Hungarian who is working locally to go out and shout IRA slogans – and the whole thing descended from there!
    More of an ‘alcohol attack’ than a ‘republican attack’

  • darthrumsfeld

    So that’s alright then elvis. We’d better tell the septagenarian victim of the assault. Funny how none of the names of those charged seem very Hungarian.

    Good to see the “concerned citizen” who visited the Raphoe shopkeepers on Friday and told them to close next day was ignored.

  • fair_deal

    “More of an ‘alcohol attack’ than a ‘republican attack'”

    This is at least the second time I have seen drink offered as an excuse for sectarian attacks by republicans. If the loyalists get largered up before they attack homes in Ahoghill does it make it drink-fuelled and not sectarian? It is also reminscient of the excuse of ‘knife culture’ to explain the brutal murder of Robert McCartney.

    It may have been a drink-fuelled sectarian attack but it still was a sectarian attack by republicans. The local Sinn Fein response – the local SF councillor was blaming everyone except those engaged in the sectarian attack.

    “encouraged a Hungarian who is working locally to go out and shout IRA slogans”

    Looks like there is a tinge of racism too. “Let’s get a foreigner to go and shout slogans he won’t know what he’s doing. That’ll be so funny”. Something strainght out of the Bernard Manning practical joke book

  • darthrumsfeld

    more likely he was reading the Shinner version ofMonty Python’s Hungarian Dirty Phrase Book

    “What an enjoyable parade” is translated as
    ” F*** off you orange Bastards”

    BTW shame on you Mick for sending Armagh and E Tyrone to Raphoe. It was us, the boys from County Londonderry( ably assisted by Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan) In hoc signo vinces!!

  • reality check

    As far as im aware the ferguson area of castlederg is mainly nationalist.While i unequivocally condemn the violence and the elderly man getting hurt,the loyal orders must accept that their parades have the potential to cause trouble in nationalist areas and in future meet with residents.trying to be democratic about the thing will be viewed upon by all as being progressive.The problems with parades wont go away until properly dealt with

  • Setanta

    There was fair craic at the Fleadh. I do think there were to many nordies at it and a lot of people from the south did not travel. Ballina should get it next year as its half way between north and south and could do with making a few yo yo’s

  • fair_deal

    Reality check

    “As far as im aware the ferguson area of castlederg is mainly nationalist”

    The parade does not go through the ferguson area. There is a residential part which as you say is mainly nationalist. However, the section of the road the Black walks on is mixed in terms of religion and usage commercial (hence the public house the attackers came from) and residential.

  • Alexander Park

    Ferguson Crescent is not a nationalist area – other than in the minds of SF Facists – it is mainly commercial and some mixed residential.

  • Alexander Park

    Ferguson Crescent is not a nationalist area – other than in the minds of SF Facists – it is mainly commercial and some mixed residential.

  • circles

    Aye those SF facists – they take one look at yer bake at yer labelled for life.
    I’ve seen them do it too – walk into a street – check out the mugs of the people living there and if they look like nationalists then thats it – the place is branded for ever.

    Still I’d rather have a SF facist than a loyalist fascist.

  • yerman

    Its shocking that some people have sought to justify attacks on the RBP parade as an ‘alcohol attack’. It was an unprovoked attack on innocent people.

    As for the claim that people in the parade should accept responsibility for in some way bringing the attack upon themselves – does the simple presence of someone from a differing religious belief warrant or justify an attack on them? Naked sectarianism, no different to the same kind of naked sectariansm displayed against Catholics in Ahoghill.

  • lib2016

    ” no different to the same kind of naked sectarianism displayed against Catholics in Ahoghill”

    The Catholics in Ahoghill were marching through the village in formation while banging drums and playing party tunes?

  • fair_deal

    lib2016

    “The Catholics in Ahoghill were marching through the village in formation while banging drums and playing party tunes?”

    The Catholics of Ahoghill are being attacked for who they are. This group of Protestants were attacked for who they are not for what they were doing.

    The search for ways to excuse sectarian violence is disgusting. Whenever some Unionist reps stupidly linked anti-catholic violence in county Antrim to the republican parade in Ballymena they were rightfully pilloried but its A-OK for republicans to do the same? Bollix to be perfectly blunt. At least the Unionist reps condemned the violence something the local Sinn fein rep didn’t manage.

  • yerman

    lib
    Your ongoing attempts to justify open sectarian violence are disturbing to say the least. Maybe you could explain just what is so offensive about a band leading men (including some quite elderly men who were also physically attacked) through their home town. I’m not aware of any ‘party’ tunes (as you call them) being played and I think you’ll find that its quite hard to keep time in any marching band without a drum beat.

    The fact that these ‘hardmen’ encouraged a migrant worker to go out and shout IRA slogans at the men simply makes the whole episode all the more deplorable. Maybe that’s what Davy Hyland meant with his comments the other day.

  • lib2016

    All these secretive unionist/loyalist groups seem to be connected – no later than yesterday we saw a connection between Mr. Saulters of OO fame, the Newsletter and the unionist paramilitaries in the Love Ulster debacle.

    If the KKK try walking through Brick Lane I know which side is the right one to be on.

    To me it’s unbelievable that unionist ‘moderates’ haven’t spoken out. Dammit mainstream republicans were quick to denounce the Ballymena march and this was a provocative feeder march designed to take the shine of the fact that marches in Raphoe and Derry had gone off alright.

  • yerman

    lib
    “this was a provocative feeder march designed to take the shine of the fact that marches in Raphoe and Derry had gone off alright.”

    Just who exactly would want to take the shine off the fact that marches had went peacefully in places like Raphoe? It certainly wouldnt be the RBP!

    Nice to see the old chestnut re-surfacing. When you’re struggling try to link the Orange Institution and the KKK. Any chance of answering the points put to you… no? thought not.

    Unionist ‘moderates’ or any unionist would have no reason to speak out against this parade. It was an entirely peaceful, approved parade consisting of men behind a religious banner. Why is it utterly impossible to get any recognition that the people who carried out this attack were just sectarian thugs.

  • Mick

    Darth, that was one of my more than occasional inattention to grammar mishtakes. Now fixed, I hope.

  • lib2016

    ….and the ‘Love Ulster’ campaign is entirely unconnected to unionist paramilitaries?

    When we see UVF connected bands in Orange parades we aren’t seeing history-on-tour. We’re seeing Harryville-on-tour!

    Extreme unionists can continue to dominate the unionist community’s response or the moderates can raise their voices. I’d say they have six months at most to save their community from itself.

  • TAFKABO

    “Still I’d rather have a SF facist than a loyalist fascist.”

    With comments like that, the jokes just write themselves.
    I’d laugh, if I wasn’t sitting here crying uncontrollably at the sheer luancy of a country that produces people who can say stuff like that and keep a straight face.

  • Alan McDonald

    Lib,

    Now you’ve got my attention.

    I’d say they have six months at most to save their community from itself.

    Then what happens?

  • slug

    Yerman

    I would agree with you that as far as one can see the RBP did nothing wrong here and were treated to an unjustified attack from a couple of drunks. I cant see any reason to complain about anyone other than the attacker here.

  • Mick

    Alan,

    Yes, but who is going to save this thread from yet another case of terminal whataboutery?

    Might I suggest that all that is required is some judicious use of the odd history book or two, a few references on Google and a modicum of fresh thinking.

  • lib2016

    If we haven’t seen real moves towards setting up a powersharing Executive within the next six months then the governments will have no choice but to start putting pressure on unionism.

    In case they haven’t noticed it unionism has very few political friends in London, Dublin, Brussels or Washingtom. I’ve seen speculation in the press that given the ‘people-skills’ of both unionist parties even the Civil Service is keen to get in on the act.

    Trimble was propped up and his community courted in an effort to encourage them into a powersharing arrangement. They still were too frightened to move forward.

    How long do YOU think a divided and demoralised unionist community can stand alone?

  • TAFKABO

    “If we haven’t seen real moves towards setting up a powersharing Executive within the next six months then the governments will have no choice but to start putting pressure on unionism.”

    Why won’t they have any choice but to do as you suggest?
    Don’t they have the choice to simply wait for another six months to see if the unionists are convinced that the IRA really have done all they say they wil do?

    “In case they haven’t noticed it unionism has very few political friends in London, Dublin, Brussels or Washingtom.”

    No, I haven’t noticed that.Republican wet dreams are not my source of information.

    ” I’ve seen speculation in the press that given the ‘people-skills’ of both unionist parties even the Civil Service is keen to get in on the act.”

    Aye, maybe you ought to start reading papers other than the daily provo.

    “Trimble was propped up and his community courted in an effort to encourage them into a powersharing arrangement. They still were too frightened to move forward.”

    *tawn*

    “How long do YOU think a divided and demoralised unionist community can stand alone?

    We’re going to find out how long the unionists can stand on their present course.I’m a Unionist and I can tell you that I’m looking forward to finding out.

  • Alan McDonald

    Mick and Lib,

    My problems are that a) I’m not there and b)I don’t care about parades.

    Most threads go the way this one did. I just wanted to pick up on something that interested me.

    In retrospect (and for future reference) I should avoid asking what appeared to be a rhetorical question.

  • slug

    Unionists can certainly breathe a sigh of relief about many things – the demographics are not working out as nationalists had hoped and they have now won the argument on decommissioning. There is much that has been achieved. But this is not a zero sum game. As the nationalists benefit from some changes this need not mean a loss to unionists.

    As Mick Fealty’s “A Long Peace” says, we have to focus on absolute gains for unionism not gains relative to nationalism. Nationalist gains need not always be bad for the unionists.

  • slug

    Also remember all the fears about cross border bordies with harmonising executive powers. Again that was contained and the scare stories were not realised.

  • D’Oracle

    Yerman,
    Thanks for the heads-up; basic info steers are always useful to us Dubs in figuring out just what is what in them thar parts yonder

  • Alan2

    For anyone that is interested…streming video of the Raphoe parade (and others) is available at:

    http://www.orange-order.co.uk

    You need flash installed (98% have it already).

  • Alan2

    For anyone that is interested…streming video of the Raphoe parade (and others) is available at:

    http://www.orange-order.co.uk

    You need flash installed (98% have it already).

  • Alan2

    “ferguson area of castlederg is mainly nationalist.While i unequivocally condemn the violence and the elderly man getting hurt,the loyal orders must accept that their parades have the potential to cause trouble in nationalist areas and in future meet with residents.”

    The Royal Black Institution frequently meets with people and indeed voluntarily reroutes it`s parades on occassions. The Ferguson area is NOT a Nationalist area it is mostly commercial although i suppose it runs along “a border” of “a Nationalist area”. William Logan the head of the RBP was interviewed on TV fot the 12th and ureged people to have the courage of their convictions to talk to people as it was not a surrender or compromise of principles simply to show some common sense and some common courtesy and simply talk to people. I wholeheartedly agree.

  • reality check

    Alan2 -i accept that the rbp wouldnt be as extreme as the orange order and be willing to engage in meaningfull dialogue.this has to be the case,noone wants scenes like castlederg repeated

  • fair_deal

    On sectarain attacks there is no need for dialogue. They shouldn’t happen.

  • curious

    “On sectarain [sic] attacks there is no need for dialogue. They shouldn’t happen.”

    The corollary thereof being that neither should sectarian marches?

  • fair_deal

    Expressing an identity is not sectarainism

  • Biffo

    f_d

    “Expressing an identity is not sectarainism”

    Of course it is if the identity being expressed is a sectarian one.

    The OO, Apprentice Boys, Black institution are sectarian by their nature. They are exclusively protestant and preach hatred of catholicism as a virtue, so they do.

  • Biffo

    f_d

    You can’t deny they are sectarian. That’s simply untenable and unhelpful to any debate.

  • curious

    From http://www.dictionary.com:

    “Secrarianism:
    1.Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.
    2.Adhering or confined to the dogmatic limits of a sect or denomination; partisan.
    3.Narrow-minded; parochial.”

    Hmm, some might think it sounds rather like your so-called “expressing an identity”, fair_deal.

    Personally, I don’t have much of an opinion on marching; I just don’t see why anyone would want to march, but that’s just me, I’m loathe to participate in any physical activity other than sex and the gym. However, there are people out there who do have an issue with marches. I don’t know whether this is based on a misunderstanding of the fundamentals of what marching for the various orders and preceptories is all about or is driven by naked hatred of anything “British”. However, what i do know is that it is incumbent upon the marchers to take their case to those who would protest against their marches and at least try to make them understand that marching is not a coat-trailing exercise but is about witnessing their faith. If the protests are as a result of a misunderstanding, all the better, this can be sorted out. However, if the protests are a manifestation of hatred towards anything Protestant and Ulster-British, well then, the marchers have called their bluff and proved to the world what they are. I’m a (lapsed) catholic and am easily persuadable on the constitutional issue – whoever makes the case that represents my best interests will get my vote so I’m not some dyed in the wool Chuck. But one thing that sticks in my craw is the refusal to engage the residents and sort out the effing issue once and for all.

  • slug

    The Presbyterian church is exclusively protestant.

    How sectarian of them!

  • slug

    Curious:

    That is a rather well expressed and articulate point you make there.

    There is no doubt that the OO and other protestant marching orders have rather a fertile basis for selling a positive message: they stand for individual liberty, they oppose top-down autarchy, they stand for the spirit of the 1688 revolution, the end of despotic monarchy and despotic eccelsiastical structures.

    Their code of conduct – the qualifications of an Orangeman – which are available online are of unquestionablly christian and positive spirited nature.

    There is a lot of material to work on an nobody should be offended by any of the above.

    The problem is that in practive the OO are not always, or by everyone, seen as adhering to the above principles. They stand accused of bigotry, hatred, tribalism and other negatives.

    There is, therefore, much scope for the sort of “taking their case” to the wider community that you advocate in your 5:56PM.

  • curious

    Slug,

    “That is a rather well expressed and articulate point you make there.”

    I’m not sure whether to feel complimented or condescended….

    Another personal bugbear of mine is the 12th, not that you can sort out my issues, I’m really just thinking out loud. Not that I don’t mind the 2 days off work, but everything shuts down and there’s nothing to do. It is the wrong celebration to be the pinnacle of the marching season. What it celebrates is everything that is deemed to be wrong with the Orange Order – protestantism over Catholicism. Why not make the 12th a celebration of our British-Irish heritage (our meaning catholic and protestant)one that is truly pluralistic and inclusive?

  • cladycowboy

    Defenders of certain parades are a joke. Why would anyone want to march in an area where they are clearly not wanted or appreciated by the local populace, isn’t the whole idea of a parade that people can watch the parade and enjoy? If no-one is enjoying it or the majority actively opposing it then the marchers would be better off parading in their front lounge were at least their adoring family will take ‘enjoyment’ from watching and hence the parade will be a success.
    If this seems illogical, then anyone for an Easter Sunday commemeration on the Shankill next year?

  • cladycowboy

    slug,

    ‘they stand for the spirit of the 1688 revolution, the end of despotic monarchy and despotic eccelsiastical structures.’

    All fine and good but the battle’s been fought and won, none of these are coming back,find something else to parade for. An end to poverty? Anti-sectarianism? There is a lot more evil been introduced into our world since 1688, let the Orangemen select a new cause yet to be won and you never know i may watch them parade myself!

  • Alan McDonald

    In keeping with my vow to avoid rhetorical questions, and in keeping with my observation that a) I’m not from there and b)I don’t care about parades, I offer the following:

    When I was a Christian (many decades ago) here in the USA, it was not unusual for Christians of all denominations to celebrate Easter Sunday. Judy Garland and Fred Astaire even made a movie about an Easter Parade.

  • Bored

    I’m sure the Blackmen/Orangemen/Spacemen who march in Donegal are secretly annoyed that they don’t get the benefit of the full seasonal ‘celebrations’ – i.e. a full summer of anti-catholic intimidation, assault and arson to ‘soften up’ the natives.

  • Biffo

    slug

    “The Presbyterian church is exclusively protestant.

    How sectarian of them!”

    Anybody can become a presbyterian. What’s your point?

  • fair_deal

    Mick

    This is it I hereby am officially losing it. I apologise in advance and I will accept whatever punishment you deem necessary. I have tried to be patient on here with various republicans and nationalists on this issue of parades, identity and sectarianism but there is only so much sh*te a human being can take and I have reached it.

    Curious, Biffo et al

    You can’t share a fcuking road but yet you demand to share power? Get real! Villages, town centres and arterial routes Protestants or Unionists or people identify British use every day of their lives are to be blocked to them once they ask to walk peacefully through them. Get real!

    All this is plain, straightforward, unabashed demonisation. A major barrier to a united ireland has persistently been identity (in many shapes and forms). Hence it is viewed as something to be overcome. An identity is weakened if less identify with it. Therefore, a process of demonisation is useful. The label sectarian is a greater demoniser violence is good at turning people off too:
    Display a union flag – sectarian
    Want to mark events of significance locally or nationally – sectarian
    Want to have a public display of a non-irish identity – sectarian
    Show any interest in anything Ulster-Scots – sectarian

    Demoralisation is also a good one. “We can’t have these Prods thinking now we have stopped killing them that we’ll be able to live in peaceful co-existence” aka as “Militant not militaristic” Agitatef and attack any expressions of their identity get roads and areas barred to them “Liberate another bit of ireland’s blessed turf”

    WE ARE ANTI-SECTARIAN – I laughed until I cried.

    No Orange feet on our road – An exclusivist claim of territory and exclusion of a alternative form of expression but that isn’t sectarian? How many directions can the republican community face at one time? To use a wonderfully expressive Ulster-Scots word KEIK.

    Some parades commission rulings require no music all you’re asked to do is look at us the response at Ardoyne and other places – violence. “Attacking a section of the other community is actually anti-sectarian because we believe that them’uns are the sectarian ones.” Bullshit taken to truly stinking levels

    Brits Out – “It means the army you know.” Bollix. Then it would read British Army out or Army out.

    The Resident Hate groups – “We will demonise key groups in the Protestant community and their leaders but that won’t lead to sectarian attitudes in our community.” LMFAO. Then when they can’t control kids at interfaces they can’t seem to work out why?

    Sinn Fein – “We will demand action on sectarianism but only produce reports that only contain sectarian attacks on catholics.” Attacks on Protestants? (I dare you I dare one of you to claim there haven’t been any) “We won’t mention those it would get in the way of demonising them’uns” Shite of the highest order.

    Free Sean Kelly – “We demand the release of a sectarian mass murderer. He’d be really useful in controlling kids at Ardoyne, they look up to him” They publicly admit kids hero worship a sectarian murderer? This does not indicate a problem of sectarian attitudes among the local youth?

    Shall Sinn Fein be demanding the closure of the CCMS and its system as it caters for one religious community? No that’s right “Parents are exercising choice”.

    The biggest lies you’ll ever tell are the lies you tell yourself. The RM and nationalists are telling themselves some huge whoppers

    I have about four mates who would be best described as political neandarthals in their attitudes towards nationalists and republicans. The myopia, denial and hypocrisy of republicans and nationalists on parades, identity and sectarianism makes me seriously think they have a point.

    Thole aze quhiles poustie.

  • slug

    “Anybody can become a presbyterian. What’s your point?”

    Well, my point is this. One of your complaints listed above was the ‘exclusively protestant’ nature of the Orange Lodges. This specific complaint applies to the Presbyterian Church in Ireland too.

  • slug

    Fair Deal

    Your exasperation is quite understandable.

    Curious

    I thought you raised a good point, so I intended it as a compliment. I don’t approve of those who use patronising language here, so I hope I didn’t seem that way.

  • Biffo

    Slug

    It wasn’t a complaint, It was a statement of fact.

    The Presbyterian Church is a religious organisation, nobody is barred from joining.

    The OO is a political organisation with membership restricted to protestants.

    Neither of those sentences constitute a complaint.

  • slug

    Fair Deal

    In my experience, there is a type of person – the “youse are worse” posters – who is not able to do much else than make points which propagandize againt the other community.

    Often this is amazingly unsubtle and cheap. For instance there is a particular poster who is apt to chirp out things like “in Western Europe wherever you go they think unionists are in the wrong” or “the unionists have 6 months to self destruct” in threads where these points are not even being discussed. (I am sure there are equivalents on the unionist side.)

    I basically give people a couple of chances, but once I identify them as one of “youse are worse” posters I pretty much ignore them. Certianly I don’t waste any emotion or time on them. Unless for purposes of amusement.

    Of course we all want to be proud of the group we are from – that is a human universal – the unsubtle way in which some NI posters do this betrays a rather depressing need to paint the other side as lacking basic moral integrity.

    Now it seems to me that neither side in NI are angels, far from it. But we will never move on until people are able to see there is an equal integrity to the basic aspirations of both sides.

  • slug

    Biffo – I thought you were complaining about the OO being for protestants only. If not then I misunderstood and I apologise.

  • slug

    Biffo

    By the way.

    It is wrong to say that nobody is barred from joining the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. You have to go through certain steps and if you fail to agree to these you may not join. Roughly speaking it is not open to those who are not willing to state their belief in Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, or to those who are unwilling to contribute financially to the organization.

    It is somewhat unremarkable that a religious organization would contain only members of that religion. According to the Orange Order, it is a protestant religious organization, very much committed to protestantism, and therefore it is only for protestants. Is that really a problem?

  • Biffo

    fair_deal

    “The biggest lies you’ll ever tell are the lies you tell yourself. The RM and nationalists are telling themselves some huge whoppers.”

    Once again all you offer is a load of self-righteous keek (I prefer the traditional spelling).

    The Orange Order is as completely sectarian as Sinn Fein and the resident “hate” groups you talk about.

    Hatred of Catholicism is espoused by the OO. OO members have murdered catholics and enlisted the help of terrorists to try and force parades through areas where catholics have suffered extreme violence at the hands of those same terrorists.

    You can’t deny that

    If you are denying that you are simply a liar.

    The OO has a massive credibility gap. Nothing you’ve said serves to bridge it.

    By the way, your accusations about the Union Flag and Ulster Scots are plain stupid.

    There’s nane sae blind as them that winna see.

  • Biffo

    Slug

    “According to the Orange Order, it is a protestant religious organization, very much committed to protestantism, and therefore it is only for protestants. Is that really a problem?”

    No that wouldn’t be a problem, but religion is not the only aspect to the OO, it’s also political. Look at the direct role it has played in politics here. It is also a “nationalist” organisation – look at the number of national flags displayed on parades – it’s not just about religion.

  • slug

    Biffo

    Yes I am sure it is not just about religion – its about loyalty to the crown and other such things. But surely the protestantism is a core part of its essence?

  • Biffo

    Slug

    “But surely the protestantism is a core part of its essence?”

    I don’t know. I don’t have any orange connections.

    I can only call it as I see it.

    The battle of the Boyne celebrations – burning tricolours on top of bonfires (so inclusive of other traditions). Billy Wright and Johnny Adair at Drumcree, Brian Robinson, UDA funerals with OO guards of honour. Jeffrey Donaldson telling us he hates catholicism. Nasty bandsmen with paramilitary tatoos threatening people on the last bus home – it’s all part of the package.

  • slug

    Biffo those are certainly the sort of things that one can compain about. No ifs or buts. I am not Orange so I am not here to defend things like that.

  • Alan2

    “Anybody can become a presbyterian. What’s your point?”

    Actually that is not true. anyone may attend any church service in various denomination but to become a proper church member usually requires approval by the church elders.

  • fair_deal

    Biffo

    “your accusations about the Union Flag and Ulster Scots are plain stupid.”

    1. In SF’s recent report they included putting up national flags (not paramilitary flags but national flags) as examples of sectarianism.
    2. The main nationalist newspaper in belfast dubbed Ulster-Scots as the ‘DIY language for Orangemen’.

    “OO members have murdered catholics etc”

    This little list is just exemplifying the procees of demonisation. Co-existence does not mean co-determinance. If we got every murderer in Northern Ireland to list what groups they were ever a part of you will find a long list of organisations – every denomination in the country and a lot of major organisations would make an appearance. But no that would be rational and fair can’t have that when talking about the Orange – drag twist anything to deride and demean.

    Do you realise that the loyalist equivalent to this shite are the neandarthals who produce bile like Romewatch? Some Priests molest kids therefore all priests are child molesters. Guns were found in Clonard Monastery grounds this proves the Catholic church is controlling and directing the murder campaign.

    RM tell a community they are worthless. RM demand the right to dictate to another community how, where, why and what it can do to express itself. RM deride their identities. Yet complain that they aren’t behaving positively and won’t enage with them?

    “keek (I prefer the traditional spelling).”

    Keek means to look, peep or glance.

    There’s nane sae blind as them that winna see.
    Thaur’s nane sae blinn as thaim at winnae see.

    Grade D Could do better

  • Bored

    “There’s nane sae blind as them that winna see.
    Thaur’s nane sae blinn as thaim at winnae see.

    Grade D Could do better”

    Things have reached a new low on Slugger – fair_deal attempts to point-score by displaying his supposed superior proficiency in a made-up language.

    By the way fair_deal – I’m sure if I and ten of my friends came round and appended a tricolour to the lamp post outside your house you wouldn’t be too long in decrying that behaviour as sectarian. Or maybe I’m maligning you?

    P.S. your 7:26 p.m. contained a number of resaonable points – I hate the Shinners as much as the next man.

    That said – “I have about four mates who would be best described as political neandarthals in their attitudes towards nationalists and republicans”. Funnily enough I don’t have any ‘mates’ with those sorts of attitudes to unionists, loyalists, nationalists or republicans – if they had, they wouldn’t be my mates for very long.

  • yerman

    Very interesting that the comments about the Presbyterian Church were so quickly dismissed. All Churches/Religions by their very nature have to believe that they are the best/only way to bring a person to God – otherwise they have no reason for being. Therefore they all have to stick to their own particular doctrines and theologies. That applies equally to the Presbyterian Church as it does to the Roman Catholic Church, or any other you want to choose.

    Also, the comment that “anyone can join the Presbyterian Church” isn’t true in any shape or form. You just cant roll up some Sunday and decide that you are going to be a Presbyterian. To be considered a member of the Church then you have to be a communicant member and have recieved communion. To do that you will have had to profess a faith in Christ as your personal saviour and also within the process you will accept the differing points of theology within Presbyterianism.

    It isn’t even as simple as that however, before you can even stand before a congregation to recieve communion you will have had to go before the Kirk Session which includes the Minister and elders of the Church and persuade them that you are truly ready to recieve communion – you will in all (i think) congregations have had to go through a course of pre-communion classes beforehand.

    Of course you can attend a Sunday service for your whole life without ever being a full member of the Church but then you can attend an Orange Parade without ever being an Orangeman. That above is simply the procedure to become a member of the Presbyterian Church – I’m sure that all others have their own methods. Therefore all churches and all religions will exclude people.

    Fair_Deal’s post was also extremely well made:
    Why is absolute opposition to Orangism not considered sectarian and anti-Protestant?

    Simple repetition of a claim that the Orange Institution is anti-Catholic and all its members are drooling tattoed bigots who sit in their lodge meetings plotting the downfall of Rome doesnt make those claims any less ludicrous.

    How on earth can nationalists and republicans harp on about how wonderful documents produced by the NIO like “A Shared Future” are yet they refuse to share a town centre with their Protestant neighbours?

    Display of national flags at an Orange Parade is not a display of sectarianism. It may well be a display of national allegiance and it may well be a political statement even, but that does not make it a sectarian statement per se. Is the display of the Irish Tricolour at Republicans a sectarian display?

    Cladycowboy
    Interesting you managed to comment without making any reference to the attack on innocent men walking through your neighbouring town. Would you not like to condemn attacks on 70yr old pensioners by boozed up thugs?

  • yerman

    “fair_deal attempts to point-score by displaying his supposed superior proficiency in a made-up language.”

    Why do you feel the need to deride someone elses culture? Is there no such thing as tolerance and respect in your mindset? Does it frighten you that other people have different cultures to you?

    Also, from what I read of the this thread he was simply correcting someone elses attempts to write in the language.

  • yerman

    “Funnily enough I don’t have any ‘mates’ with those sorts of attitudes to unionists, loyalists, nationalists or republicans – if they had, they wouldn’t be my mates for very long.”

    Firstly, apologies for the repeated posts – last one I promise.

    It seems you dont need mates who deride unionists – you manage that quite well by yourself. The comment I quoted in my last post highlights your own bigotry which managed to rampage quite quickly to the surface in respect to Ulster-Scots culture and language.

  • cladycowboy

    fair_deal

    I accept that you will not shift your position on this, i ask only to put forward my little considered opinion. I’m not sure if you included myself in ‘et al’.
    My take on this is not coloured by sectarianism but whether the parades will forever cause tension in the possible future united Ireland.
    I’ve stated that some of the things the OO commemerate is worthy of praise but also asked, is it relevant today, are there not new battles to be fought? New things to parade for?
    The ‘British’ and ‘Protestant’ identity is not one strain, to want to show opposition to one part of it (OO parades in areas likely to cause offence) is not an attack on the broader culture, the parts that non-protestants can participate in.
    If you truly believe in this rights agenda for parading, then would you accept RM Easter parades past your front door, shall we say 3 times a year? Would you cheer or even join in as you are permitted to do so?

    P.S I’m sure you posted on another thread that you were British residing in Ireland, were you born in Britain, whereabouts?

  • fair_deal

    Bored

    My friends have freedom of thought. I’d find life very dull if all my friends had exactly the same views as me.

    PS All four take great joy in slagging off the OO.

  • cladycowboy

    yerman

    ‘Cladycowboy
    Interesting you managed to comment without making any reference to the attack on innocent men walking through your neighbouring town. Would you not like to condemn attacks on 70yr old pensioners by boozed up thugs?’

    I can’t imagine why you find it interesting at all or even relevant to the thread but i guess you’re right..

    .. if i may invoke a Paisleyism, you see i’ve been on holiday- honestly guv, to my cousin in Wigan and more importantly lived in London for last 15yrs so Castlederg is no longer my ‘neighbouring’ town, there are some downsides to exile! 😉

    or another DUPism, ‘I condemn all attacks on 70yr old pensioners by boozed up thugs….either Loyalist or Republican’

    Honestly, i condemn this particular attack.
    I also believe that these parades in mixed areas will always cause tension in their current form.

  • fair_deal

    Cladycowboy

    “is it relevant today”

    If large groups of people wish to mark it then they must see a relevance. Momentum alone cannot keep something going for any length of time.

    I personally think the OO has to be more about parades and that parades need improvement e.g. the recent developments of more family enterntainmen, complimentary programmes of events to the parades. Also the OO should take inspiration from the faith based networks in the USA for the type of work it could carry out.

    “If you truly believe in this rights agenda for parading, then would you accept RM Easter parades past your front door, shall we say 3 times a year? Would you cheer or even join in as you are permitted to do so”

    1. Yes republicans have the right to march past my house especially if it is on a main arterial route or centre of a village and town. As to the offence stuff, there is no right not to be offended in fact the reverse a pluralist society requires tolerance of views you disagree with. (By the way is Easter 3 times a year now 😉 )
    2. No I would not cheer or participate. I don’t identify or support Irish republicanism. The dates have no significance to me. I lost three friends during the Troubles as a result of republican murders. If someone was organising a peaceful protest I would probably go along to it but only if it was peaceful and did not try to deny the parade the route.
    3. I am not expecting people from a different religious, political or national identity to support participate or enjoy in Loyal order parades. All I ask is that they are tolerated.

  • fair_deal

    clady

    Just spotted this

    “P.S I’m sure you posted on another thread that you were British residing in Ireland, were you born in Britain, whereabouts?”

    No you must have me confused with someone else born, raised and lived in (apart from 4 months I lived in Boston and New York) Ulster, United Kingdom.

  • cladycowboy

    fair_deal

    If that is how you truly feel with regards to complete tolerance regardless of offence caused then you’re a better man than most.

    I’d respectfully suggest that the majority of OO members or OO parade viewers would take offence to Easter parades past thier door and if say after 20years of peaceful protests there is a parade during the time any of their friends has been murdered by people who share the same ideology as those parading, i’m sure we’d see boiling point and disturbances arising.

    Even if protests are kept peaceful, which is hard, either the protest usually fades away or it becomes violent, we have a situation whereby neighbours are constantly offending or taking offence at each other, not ideal for building a peaceful society.

    Easter parades could happen evry day of the easter week to commemerate the rising so it could be as much as 7! 😉

    I do honestly strive for a peacful Ireland, if everyone was as tolerant as you profess you are then there would be no problem but most people aren’t and so i would rather there were less parades of any ilk and in areas where people want to view them.

    The point of relevancy is i think relevant?! Imagine two friends, one catholic and one protestant who share many views on the world and the catholic says lets go to this ‘march to End world poverty and people trafficking’ and his protestant mate says no, i’ve got to go and commemerate the fall of absolute monarchy, we’d hardly be all moving/facing in the same direction or living in the same century and division will always be our lot. Don’t you agree?

  • yerman

    clady
    Fair enough.

    but
    “I also believe that these parades in mixed areas will always cause tension in their current form.”

    Your use of ‘current form’ is interesting. Some people simply say “no Orange feet on (insert name) Road”. Others seem to demand that there are talks with residents, seemingly the talks dont actually have to be about anything but it seems the actual art of conversation is what they seek before they will accept their Protestant neighbours expressing their culture and religion. You seem to want some change in ‘form’ of the parades. What exactly is it about a Loyal Order parade that you would change before you think they wont cause tension.

    And by the way, if we simply labelled an event because it “raised tensions” or sought to have it banned for doing that then there are a whole host of things we could add. The parade itself of course doesnt raise any tensions. Those seem only to be raised by people who are going out of their way to be annoyed.

    You mentioned about parades in ‘mixed’ areas also. We all hear the endless problems over how NI is becoming more and more segregated with less and less people living in truly mixed areas. Do you not happen to think that this is one of the reasons why, when one community is told it cannot celebrate its culture in a mixed area and so they are then forced to leave or decide to leave and live in an area where they feel more wanted. Intimidation can take many different forms, and the repression of someones culture and traditions is just another form of that.

    There are people who will argue that having a Chapel or a GAA pitch in a mixed area also raises tensions. Are they correct too and should they move off to areas where they are more ‘wanted’?

  • Alan McDonald

    Yerman,
    You say that all churches and all religions will exclude people.
    For a couple of alternatives, see Unitarian Universalist Association Principles and Purposes and About the Bahá’í Faith. Unfortunately, these are not the world’s dominant religions.

    CladyCowboy,
    You say that most people aren’t … tolerant. You are probably right. That is why some of us in the USA spend so much time trying to keep church and state separate, because few religions are as tolerant as the Unitarians and the Baha’is.

  • Alan2

    “Also the OO should take inspiration from the faith based networks in the USA for the type of work it could carry out.”

    Suggest you take a look at the gospel tracts “Know Surrender”, “King William” and “No Surrender” at http://www.orange-order.co.uk

    on hte main menu on right hand side

  • darthrumsfeld

    “Why would anyone want to march in an area where they are clearly not wanted or appreciated by the local populace” -cladycowboy’s “thoughts”

    Er, perhaps because it’s their area too? Equally why would anyone ant to play Gaelic in an area where they’re not wanted or appreciated-like the strets around Croke Park? :0)

    If Portadown people want to hold a procession in Portadown that isn’t by it’s nature illegal -i.e. inciting hatred or supporting paramilitarism, what business is it of a majority of part of that area to prevent it? if they don’t like it protest peacefully. If you want to commemorate Pearse the Paedophile up the Shankill, go ahead. if the locals object, let them do to peacefully. Better still, see if any local people want to organise it . Because the Raphoe demonstration was organised by people from Raphoe; the field was owned by a farmer from Raphoe; and the invitation was to bring people to visit raphoe- most of whom I’ll guarantee had never been there before. And in spite of the attempted intimidation and arson, I bet the chippies, garages, and pubs would want a day like Saturday every year. And here’s a little secret- if all that motivates Prods is a desire to offend the other sort, the best way to overcome them is to ignore them. Then they’ll be so pissed off Orangeism will disappear within a generation. And even you know that won’t happen.

    What you want is nice little ethnic communities with “not a Prod about the place”- or only those who know their place. have you ever thought how much your thought processes are like the morons torching chapels in Ballymena?

  • fair_deal

    “I’d respectfully suggest that the majority of OO members or OO parade viewers would take offence to Easter parades past thier door and if say after 20years of peaceful protests there is a parade during the time any of their friends has been murdered by people who share the same ideology as those parading, i’m sure we’d see boiling point and disturbances arising.”

    1. I never denied there wouldn’t be offence simply that offence was not the basis of denial for a right. No not everyone is in the same place as me neither have I held this position my entire life but if people genuinely want to share here it is were we have to go.
    2. I realise what I am saying is not easy but we are not going to ban different expressions here so we have to learn to manage them without resorting to violence. Its the MLK quote about diasgreeing without being violently disagreeable.

    “whereby neighbours are constantly offending or taking offence at each other”

    This is why offence is a terrible basis for anything. The two communities are experts at finding things they don’t like about each other. If we weren’t arguing about parades I have little doubt we’d be arguing about something else.

    “Imagine two friends, one catholic and one protestant who share many views on the world and the catholic says lets go to this ‘march to End world poverty and people trafficking’ and his protestant mate says no, i’ve got to go and commemerate the fall of absolute monarchy, we’d hardly be all moving/facing in the same direction or living in the same century and division will always be our lot. Don’t you agree?”

    What about the Prod saying I am busy that day any chance of organising it on a different date? We don’t have to do everything together but we can do somethings together. Communities are just like people sometimes a person wants to be on their own, sometimes with their family, sometimes with people they identify with and sometimes they want to get away from it all with different people.

  • Biffo

    fair_deal, yerman

    Where I grew up, keek means shit (does it come from the Gaelic cac, I wonder)

    Where my parents grew up keek means peep.

    “Have a keek at that load of keek”

    “There’s nane sae blind as them that winna see.
    Thaur’s nane sae blinn as thaim at winnae see.

    Grade D Could do better”

    Grade E for the misguided attempt at correction.

    Fail for failing to spot dialect – “winna”, if you want to become a serious student of scots you need to learn a bit more about the diversity of dialect.

  • fair_deal

    Biffo

    Ulster-Scots is an offshoot of Eastern Scots which uses ‘nae’ not the literary na.

    I’ll check on the origins of keik when I get home tonight for you (the most common Scots spelling is keech).

  • fair_deal

    Correction

    should read west not east

  • Denny Boy

    Does all this “correcting” of Ulster Scots mean that posters are going to start correcting one another’s English as well? Where will it end? And it’s hardly netiquette as we know it, is it?

    “There’s nane sae blind as them that winna see.
    Thaur’s nane sae blinn as thaim at winnae see.

    I mean no offence but surely either of the above is nothing more than a rustic pronunciation of English. I grew up in Dublin and some of my friends spoke with an accent that would probably be incomprehensible to, say, a native of Kentucky.

    Dere’s nun so bloyend as dem da’ doh wanna see.

    See what I mean? A new language. I think I’ll call it Artanese :0)

    BTW Biffo:

    “Where I grew up, keek means shit (does it come from the Gaelic cac, I wonder)”

    English also has the word “cack”, meaning shit. I believe several European languages have a similar word.

  • Biffo

    Denny Boy

    I’ve heard English people using cac/cack about a year or so ago, I haven’t hear it recently.

    What other Euro languages have it – definately not German or French – where did the English get it?

    fair_deal

    “Ulster-Scots is an offshoot of Eastern Scots which uses ‘nae’ not the literary na.”

    That’s incorrect. Ulster Scots is an offshoot of west-central scots, or lallans. Hence the use of words like “wee’un” not “bairn” (it makes sense when you look at the geography).

  • Denny Boy

    Biffo

    “What other Euro languages have it – definately not German or French – where did the English get it?”

    I know for a fact that German has “Kack” and Dutch “kak”. I suspect they both got it from Norwegian but don’t speak much of it.

    I’ll try to find out. Fun, this.

  • lib2017

    slug

    We are discussing the need to compromise the rights of one community to peace and quiet with unfettered acess to their own homes so that a belligerent miority can have triumphalist marches through areas where they are not welcome.

    There is no “equal integrity to the basic aspirations of both sides” as you put it.

    It’s a fair tactic, in my opinion, to point out that a part of the unionist community is disgracing itself yet again and compromising it’s own position. You may dislike me for doing so but I notice that you haven’t denied the facts which I’ve posted.

    The unionist community is unpopular abroad and militant Orange marches have contributed to that unpopularity.

  • Denny Boy

    Biffo

    My apologies to the Norse. Looks like it was the anally obsessed Roman who started it all:

    “Cack

    \Cack\, v. i. [OE. cakken, fr. L. cacare; akin to Gr. ??????, and to OIr. cacc dung; cf. AS. cac.] To ease the body by stool; to go to stool. –Pope”

    Notice how Old Irish is mentioned?