Ordinarily I try to avoid linking to the YU blog, but over the past couple of weeks, an interesting discussion has been taking place on this thread by former UYUC Chairman (and UUP DARD spokesman) Kenny Donaldson.
He states that he is not a “GAA basher”, but wishes to see the GAA move beyond its “outdated, discriminatory practices”.
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Yawn…There is nothing remotely original or interesting being debated on that thread.
It might help if Mr. Donaldson told us what these “outdated and discriminatory” practises are in his view.
Minor Quibble
“the subsequent removal of Rule 42”
Rule 42 has not been removed it has been suspended for a defined period.
Unionism and the GAA
I have a number of problems with the GAA – its rules and publications make it clear that it is more than a sporting organisation, behaviour of fans can be a problem, the names of its clubs glorifying terrorists etc. nativist nonsense in its consitution.
However, it was not an organisation founded or developed for my satisfaction.
Is a consistent problem of our political discourse not that one comunity keeps trying to tell the other community to who, what, where, when and how it should express itself?
I’m with “fair deal” on this one, I think it’s just as wrong for unionists to request changes from the GAA to suit the unionist community as it is for nationalists to request change from the Orange Order.
If these organisations are to modernise and improve their PR, the changes need to come from within.
I’m with “fair deal” on this one, I think it’s just as wrong for unionists to request changes from the GAA to suit the unionist community as it is for nationalists to request change from the Orange Order.
If these organisations are to modernise and improve their PR, the changes need to come from within.
“Ordinarily I try to avoid linking to the YU blog”
ROFL
George
“It might help if Mr. Donaldson told us what these “outdated and discriminatory” practises are in his view.”
I tried to drop a small hint about that in my posts there. 🙂
Fair_Deal
“its rules and publications make it clear that it is more than a sporting organisation”
Eh, yeah? It was never just a sporting organisation. What is Scór after all?
“behaviour of fans can be a problem”
Can it???? I have never once seen fan problems at any games I attended or saw on TV, so can you perhaps give us some examples?
“the names of its clubs glorifying terrorists”
Disgraceful definitly but not a common practice throughout the GAA thankfully and more a reflection of the situation in NI society. It is one area where the GAA need to set some strict guidelines (or enforce any existing guidelines).
“the names of its clubs glorifying terrorists”
Terrible oul carryon altogether the Cathal Brugha Waterpolo club in Belfast should be forced to rename themselves forthwith
Maca
I should have been more careful of my wording. The GAA do have a commitment to language music and dance beyond sports but I was alluding to its political under and overtones.
behaviour of fans e.g.
1. Booing and pro-IRA slogans shouted during the minutes silence for the London bomb victims.
2. Pro-IRA chants at games.
3. Officials have been assualted by fans.
George
The rule about only using irish manufatcured goods and going so far as saying something not on irish paper is invalid seems a bit outdated and discriminatory.
Fair deal
“1. Booing and pro-IRA slogans shouted during the minutes silence for the London bomb victims.”
Remember your comment “behaviour of GAA fans can be a problem”.
This indicent was probably less that 0.1% of fans in a crowd of 80K, many of whom arrived late into the game and didn’t know of the minutes silence. Hardly an ongoing problem as you seem to suggest.
I didn’t hear of any pro-IRA chants, can you provide a link?
“2. Pro-IRA chants at games.”
You’ll have to provide a link, again i’ve never heard it at any games I have ever attended.
Have you heard it at games you have attended?
“3. Officials have been assualted by fans”
Could have been some incidents, disgraceful but not sure how much of a problem it really is.
Can I ask, do you have any problems with FIFA or UEFA?
fair deal
“The rule about only using irish manufatcured goods and going so far as saying something not on irish paper is invalid seems a bit outdated and discriminatory.”
That’s a joke right? So you’d prefer that goods are manufactured in France or Spain rather than NI or ROI?
I, along with others had been following the GAA blog thread on the spoilt brats website.
As an avid GAA supporter I would like to congratulate Mr Donaldson personally upon his initiative to at least go against the grain and debate a subject which the community to which he belongs knows little about.
I don’t know Mr Donaldson personally but it seems to me that as someone who comes from Crossmaglen, that he is in a position which few other unionists are. He would be blind not to recognize the importance of the GAA in the life of the South Armagh rural community.
I welcome his willingness to at least open up debate. Alike George I would like to hear Mr Donaldson expand upon his opening comments.
Unlike the vast majority of his unionist colleagues, Donaldson would be speaking from an informed position. I don’t accept Fair Deal or Keith M’s rationale that unionists cannot contribute to debates where the main players are nationalists.
I, alike Mr Donaldson want to see a point when large numers of protestants and/or unionists from this part of the Island appreciate and respect the love which thousands of people have for the Game.
I accept that the GAA can and should be doing more to speed up this process but unless people who are presntly unable to enjoy the Games fully, for whatever reason come forward and air their grievances constructively, ‘the head in the sand mentality’ which we all practice in the North will persist.
I think it’s ironic that Mr Donaldson has been broadly commended by those of us from a nationalist perspective for his initiative where fellow unionists have sought to discourage unionists from even contributing to the debate.
Perhaps Mr Donaldson has proven a point in all of this that; nationalists broadly welcome dialogue from all quarters whereas many within unionism seem to wish to control and censor debate.
Maca
1. It is a rule of its time (the late 19th century). I am not surprised that an organisation borne of a naionalist movement of that era has such a rule – protectionism was a common thread in them.
2. It does discriminate against non-Irish suppliers.
3. I would suspect it (especially the paper stuff) is largely ignored so its retention is probably archaic.
4. I have a lot of time for the benefit of free trade
This link refers to a newspaper article on the Ulster final stuff (it refers to a paper called the herald but I’m not familiar with it so can’t trace its site:
http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=27189
It refers to an article in the herald. There was also something in the Sunday Indo (I think I have that link at work so I will post if for you tomorrow).
A Catholic friend invited two mates and I to an Armagh match a few years ago. I couldn’t make it but the other two went. They mentioned the IRA stuff to me and our friend apologised for it (as he was told not his fault).
On problems of behaviour you have.
A discussion of problems with violence in the game from An phoblacht
http://republican-news.org/archive/1999
/April01/01spor.html
Assaults happen now and again at local games. An former SDLP councillor in Dunloy was convicted for one such assault.
From the sunday times
The GAAs amateur status has many advantages. However, one of the most rarely highlighted is the bullet-proof character reference it provides for violent players who wind up before the courts.
Last Monday, nine members of the Scotstown Gaelic football club in Monaghan pleaded guilty to charges arising from what gardai described as a mini-riot in a nightclub. The players viciously assaulted several staff members in the Glencarn hotel, Castleblayney.
The defence lawyer for the nine made much of the fact that they were not professional sportsmen. They were teachers, factory workers and students, responsible members of society. They had all taken time off work to attend court on several occasions. Though the 14,000 raised by the men as compensation for the victims was deemed inadequate, it was regarded as a demonstration of good faith. The nine were given suspended jail sentences. How the well-paid yobs of professional football must envy the perks of the amateur game.
I am providing this simply because you asked. As I said before at the end of the day I don’t think particularly my business.
For what it´s worth, my late father was Co. Derry GAA secretary for 20 yrs. (Late 60s-late 80s, therefore during the worst years of our little squabbles). He was also a member of the Discipinary Committee but took great pride in securing stiff bans for any player accused of making any sectarian remarks against any of the – admittedly- few non-Taigs playing the Game during those years.Yes, he was a Republican, but one of those people within the GAA who believed that it should be played and enjoyed by ANY Irishman or woman. I am especially proud of that memory of him.
Fair deal,
“protectionism was a common thread in them.”
It still is. You never see slogans “Buy British” or “Buy Irish” etc
“It does discriminate against non-Irish suppliers.”
So? Why are you worried about workers in France or China or wherever?
“I would suspect it (especially the paper stuff) is largely ignored so its retention is probably archaic.”
So why complain about it? Why try to drive business abroad so that Irish (inc NI) companies suffer?
I’d hoped you had better links, one guy claims there was pro-Ira chants but gives no details of numebrs etc. Other didn’t hear it, it’s not very clear is it? And how does this demonstrate an ongoing problem?
As I said, i’ve been to and watched numerous matches and never once heard any sort of chanting. But i’ve only been to a few games up North, you lads do things differently up there on occasion.
Assaults on officials – i’m not disputing it has happened, just not sure how big a problem it really is.
Also, “nine members of the Scotstown Gaelic football”. What does it actually have to do with the GAA, some lads fighting in a night club? The fact that they were in the GAA is irrelevant isn’t it?
Also, FIFA, UEFA, any comment?
It could just as easily have said “nine pat pupils of Scotstown Primary School” but that just wouldn’t have had the same ring to it! I covered Mr. Donaldson’s blog at the time over on Balrog and it was nice to see someone taking the time to actually take a look at the GAA rather than resorting to the ridiculous stereotype that many Unionists satisfy themselves with.
Maca
1. George asked for an outdated and discriminatory rule – that particular rule fitted both descriptons
2. Do you know which Herald newspaper he is referring too? I should have the Indo one tomorrow hopefully (late afternoon)
3. It was a Northern match they attended.
4. I am British so discrimination against a British company would concern me. Both our respective nations are members of the EU and we are supposed to be in a single market now. I have been constantly told that the Irish state and its citizens take pride in being good Europeans however it looks like the GAA doesn’t follwo suit.
5. Buy british etc campaigns are voluntary. This rule makes it mandatory.
6. Generally protectionism has seen signifacnt decline especially in the past few years.
7. Your willingness to defend this archaic outdated and discriminatory rule does make me wonder.
8. You seem to be trying to go for the ‘it was only a few’ etc. Fans in England tried that defence about racism. The NI fans tried that defence over the booing of Neil Lennon. Better to try and deal with it. Any organisation that acts as a communcator of identity attracts those whose identity is largely or entirely negative in its basis. The challenge is to recognise that and try and be proactive to counter it. The decision of the GAA for the minutes silence was positive but the reaction of a section of the fans let that initiative down.
fair deal
“I am British so discrimination against a British company would concern me.”
Then you need to check your facts my friend, and you will see that most if not all of the main official suppliers for the GAA also employ people in the UK. Ex: O’Neills in Strabane, Belfast, Newry & London, Gaelic Gear in Belfast, Chris Kay in Essex.
Also, it’s pretty much down to each individual/individual club where they get their equipment.
“Buy british etc campaigns are voluntary. This rule makes it mandatory.”
You have a choice, buy Northern or Southern. Or do you know any good hurley makes outside the island? 🙂
“Your willingness to defend this archaic outdated and discriminatory rule does make me wonder.”
Wonder what? I just think it’s a non-issue and am surprised anyone has a problem with it.
“You seem to be trying to go for the ‘it was only a few’ etc.”
In this case it WAS just a few, so claimed the newspapers. Can you show me otherwise?
Fair Deal
“1. Booing and pro-IRA slogans shouted during the minutes silence for the London bomb victims.
2. Pro-IRA chants at games.
3. Officials have been assualted by fans.”
A choice list.
First of all, some context:
Look, I’ve been going to these games for years. I’m no friend of SF or any species of provo irredentist. My point has been that if I don’t stand my ground then Sf and the cordite sniffers stand to monopolise traditions of sport and language of which I’m proud. Now:
1. I was at the match on 10 July, with 67000 others. I have to tell you that I was seriously impressed with the respectful observance of the silence. S-i-l-e-n-c-e. The (very, very) few yobs who were shouting were shown the derision and contempt they deserved. Indeed we noted how times had changed from wet Sundays at Clones under the drone of army helicopters snooping from Roslea.
2. I have never in 20 years heard any pro-IRA slogan shouted at a match at any level. At Croke Park, northern fans seem to me to make a conscious effort to give a good account of themselves – any vitriol is reserved exclusively for local rivalries. Indeed, we wait to the end of Amhrán na bhFiann to roar our support for our counties – unlike most of our southern neighbours, who need gentle admonishment from the PA to do so.
3. While it is true that at some (lower) levels, fans have behaved disgracefully, gaelic football is not alone in this respect. I don’t mean to take cheap issue (just like everybody on this site), but scenes at the Oval on 23 April were the latest incident in a long history of thuggery which has been the trademark of Irish League football.
Same applies for your slogan-chanting point. Last soccer match I was at was between NI and then World Cup champions France at Winsdor Park (18/08/99, when my compatriots spent the match hurling racist abuse at French players and singing ditties desirous of bathing up to their necks in Fenian blood. Plenty of paramilitary flags as I recall also. All this before the infamous Neil Lennon episode. Spectator sport in Ireland North and South invariably attracts morons; this is not just restricted to one side or other of the community.
I’d be delighted to take you to Croker sometime. I’m willing to go back to Windsor Park to see Lawrie’s Lads, because we can’t let mindless sectarian jackboots tramp all over sport for ever – particularly our own.
Fair_deal,
“The rule about only using irish manufatcured goods and going so far as saying something not on irish paper is invalid seems a bit outdated and discriminatory.”
I’m with Maca, are you for real? Who are they discriminating against? Countries that never heard of the GAA?
As for your IRA chants comment, simply not true and I would go so far as to say a downright lie as you are giving the impression that there are groups of people doing such things. What’s the deal with that? Not very fair of you.
I have never heard it at any championship game (don’t do the lower stuff), not from a single person never mind a group (more than 3 people) or anything “political” for that matter and I have never met anyone who has.
Championship football and hurling is the most family-friendly occassion one could experience.
Might I also remind you that the GAA organisation called the minute’s silence and there were about 20 people out of 67,000 who didn’t honour it.
The BBC commentator at the match said the minute’s silence was “impeccably observed”.
Jerseys in the park? I once played Rugby at Foyle college when an army helicopter landed on the pitch as we were losing. Which was useful. Presumably this was a distraction that XMG GAA used to their advantage also?
I would have loved to play Gaelic football as it actually seemed more good natured and less violent than the communal ear-biting exercise I had to endure every pissing Saturday morning. Still for some reason the Catholic girls at the convent school near mine seemed transfixed by Rugby playing prods. I’m probably digressing but the memories are so fine 🙂
Fair_Deal
Have to agree with Maca and George regarding the IRA chants being a pack of lies, in all probability. First off – GAA fans don’t do chants like soccer fans – there is no repetoire – for example, the Fields of Athenry isn’t aired unless Athenry or Galway win.
It tends to be an incoherent mix of well-worn insults and qualified encouragement aimed solely at the people on the pitch. Usually the worst insults are reserved for your own.
The idea that there would be an organised chant beyond a one word county name is remarkable in itself* – that it would be an IRA chant is ridiculous in my experience. Certainly outside the six northern counties the GAA is about intercounty rivalry, not nationalism. We don’t need the GAA to validate our national identity in the same way as northern nationalists seem to. It does however provide the strongest definition of each county’s identity.
*Ok the Dubs do have chants – but that’s because they are premiership fans masquerading as GAA fans for the day and don’t count.
Fair_Deal
2.Pro IRA chants at games.
I have to totally disagree with the points made by “fair_deal” in relation to the picture of the GAA that he is trying to protray.
I have been going to GAA matches for long manys a day and I have yet to hear Pro IRA chants at a match unlike the Irish league matches where loyalist sectarian chants can clearly be heard on the TV coverage each and every week and goes a long way to explain why crowd numbers are falling and clubs such as coleraine are falling into financal dissaray while the numbers attending GAA matches are on the increase and matches are now having to be taken to Croke Park to accomodate the large crowds. GAA matches have a great great family atmosphere and unlike soccer, crowds are not segragated and rival fans are allowed to mingle freely.
Fair_Deal
2.Pro IRA chants at games.
I have to totally disagree with the points made by “fair_deal” in relation to the picture of the GAA that he is trying to protray.
I have been going to GAA matches for long manys a day and I have yet to hear Pro IRA chants at a match unlike the Irish league matches where loyalist sectarian chants can clearly be heard on the TV coverage each and every week and goes a long way to explain why crowd numbers are falling and clubs such as coleraine are falling into financal dissaray while the numbers attending GAA matches are on the increase and matches are now having to be taken to Croke Park to accomodate the large crowds. GAA matches have a great great family atmosphere and unlike soccer, crowds are not segragated and rival fans are allowed to mingle freely.
Fair_Deal
2.Pro IRA chants at games.
I have to totally disagree with the points made by “fair_deal” in relation to the picture of the GAA that he is trying to protray.
I have been going to GAA matches for long manys a day and I have yet to hear Pro IRA chants at a match unlike the Irish league matches where loyalist sectarian chants can clearly be heard on the TV coverage each and every week and goes a long way to explain why crowd numbers are falling and clubs such as coleraine are falling into financal dissaray while the numbers attending GAA matches are on the increase and matches are now having to be taken to Croke Park to accomodate the large crowds. GAA matches have a great great family atmosphere and unlike soccer, crowds are not segragated and rival fans are allowed to mingle freely.
Ringo
“It tends to be an incoherent mix of well-worn insults and qualified encouragement aimed solely at the people on the pitch”
Spot on. That’s all you’ll usually ever hear:
“givit in ta Dixer”
“tis a free out ref, ya bollix ya”
“ay jayz, Lampy, don’t be houlding back”
Fair_Deal,
I suppose the best way I can explain the GAA and where it brings people emotionally or politically is that it has made me hate Meath, just Meath, no one else.
Ask me why it hasn’t made me think of other things and all I can say is I don’t know but this has been a great year seeing even Cavan giving them a beating.
George,
Meath + any team O’Rourke is involved with.
Fair_deal
Despite all the picking on you here, we do welcome your opinions 🙂
Never ever heard a pro-IRA chant or even a shout at the trillions of matches I’ve been to. Admittedly not too many involving Ulster teams but I’ve been to a few Ulster finals and never heard anything like this.
I would be at an average of three games a week and I have yet to hear such a chant nor have any of my unionist friends I would regularly have accompany me. Does remind me of a slightly amusing story though. In 1999 my brother took his then girlfriend (a unionist from the Newtownards road) to the All Ireland semi final between Armagh and Meath. It was the young ladies first game although she was a sports fan. In the opening throw in Jarlath Burns jumped highes to catch the ball, this prompted the young lady to jump to her feet screaming ‘hand ball’. The expression mn my brothers face was priceless
Maca et al
I seem to have got invovled in a debate on the GAA even though I wasn’t particularly interested in one.
As I said “it was not an organisation founded or developed for my satisfaction. Is a consistent problem of our political discourse not that one comunity keeps trying to tell the other community to who, what, where, when and how it should express itself?”
Maca (and now also for Tir Eoghain Gael)
As promised the piece from the Sunday Independent (17/07/05)
After 800 years, there is still hope for all the ABUKs out there
OH DEAR, and we British and Irish looked to be doing so well at getting on with each other. From the peace process to making Brian O’Driscoll captain of the Lions, we seemed to be coming to terms quite nicelywith the 800 years of history that both divide and unite us. But last week, a minute’s silence to honour the victims of the London bomb blasts was broken by booing and pro-IRA chants from GAA fans at the Ulster football final. And a monument in Cork to Sir Francis Drake was defaced by graffiti artists expressing themselves through the Erse.
But maybe Bertie and all the other politicians who were appalled by the abuse should stop worrying. As a Brit and long-time resident of Ireland, I know the perpetrators of both incidents are merely the national equivalent of Mad Auntie Mae in the attic – you have to let her out sometimes, but you always end up embarrassed at what she does.
On the other hand, I’ve never quite got over my surprise at how my local pub gets swamped by Germans with Dublin accents whenever we’re playing Germany. How can you regard Steven Gerrard or Wayne Rooney as demi-gods when they’re in the red of Liverpool or Man United and as villains when they pull on a white shirt?
But even my 10-year-old – put on the earth to wind up his dad – can sometimes be tempted out of the ‘anyone but England’ camp. And he’s not the only one who can manage it. There have been signs of a sea change in the attitudes of soccer fans, particularly during the last World Cup. And we’re doing our part – Sir Bob Geldof, Sir Terry Wogan. Tony Blair has even apologised for the famine. Mind you, we’re still waiting for you to say sorry for Niall of the Nine Hostages.
On a similar thread, apperently when Jarlath’s wife (who is from Belfast) first saw a Gaelic football match she was shocked an appalled that the game was so brutal they needed 4 doctors in white coats standing at the goalposts!
Fair_deal,
you should know better than to quote the Sunday Independent. That could have been two people, which is good enough for the Sindo.
I saw it on TV and heard nothing and either did the BBC commentator. Even if it was 10 out 67,000, how is the GAA to blame? That’s like blaming them for fans cursing.
Can anybody who was at the game shed some light on this. How many were there and what was said? Interesting the Sindo doesn’t know either.
On Francis Drake, I don’t know why anyone would be worried about the defacing of his statue considering he was responsible for the Srebinica of its day, the butchering of the men, women and children of Rathlin island.
A war criminal is a war criminal, regardless of other “achievements”.
Do to his statue what he did to his victims, drag it down and throw it into the sea.
Or should we put up a statue of Mladic beside it instead?
I’ve never heard a pro-IRA chant at a GAA game either. In fact, I can remember when IRA members were booed when they hijacked a match in Casement once at half time and they then left and let the game go on.
Simply not true.
The rule about use of produce is de facto defunct. Antrim hurling companies get the majority of their wood for the hurleys from England believe it or not.
Try hard to villify the GAA if you will, but I would be proud to take anyone to a match anywhere in Ireland because they only venom you’ll hear is against the opposition (or usually) the ref.
Even if it was 10 out 67,000, how is the GAA to blame?
It was 1 person. And I suppose some here would expect the GAA to install electric shock systems on supporters to ensure they didn’t disrupt the minute’s silence.
I flew from London to be at the Ulster final. I supported Tyrone, primarily by chanting ‘Come on Tyrone’ and occasionally ‘come on tae f*ck’ in the mixed support crowd- and them all thugs.
I thought the crowd observed the silence incredibly well. The people who shouted at times during it were in my estimation numbering less than ten in what sounded like two pockets of them. They were on Hill 16, i was in Cusack stand, i couldn’t hear what they were shouting, it seemed that the silence had drowned them out.
Again, i was impressed with this large crowd’s observation of the silence.
I also stood for 2 minute’s silence outside my workplace in Shepherd’s Bush, London a week after the bombings. A few passers-by and all buses stopped also. However, the majority of people, Londoners in London carried on their business, making noise during this Europe wide silence.
Comparing these 2 observations of silence i would put the respect shown at Croke pk, a place where supporters like me had stood once and been gunned down by soldiers taking orders from a London Govt , to be far greater than the crowds in Shepherds Bush.
It made to proud to be Irish and a GAA supporter
“It was 1 person. And I suppose some here would expect the GAA to install electric shock systems on supporters to ensure they didn’t disrupt the minute’s silence”
The Evening Herald reported the incident and suggested that it was more than 1 or 10 people. It also said that people phoned in on radio talk shows to register their disgust about what they heard, so I imagine there were a few miscreants about that day.
However, there was no doubt that they were the very small minority, the vast majority of GAA fans would have nothing to do with their sentiments.
TO ALL
FOR THE THIRD TIME I DON’T CARE.THIS IS MY LAST POST ON THIS THREAD. I HONESTLY DON’T CARE ENOUGH TO CARRY THIS ON.
I am not Irish so what Irish cultural or other bodies is not of particular interest to me. It floats other people’s boats fine, not mine. What the GAA does is up to the organisation, its members and those interested in it. I have no desire to tell them how to live their lives or run their organisations.
George et al
I also said it was carried in a paper called the Herald that Blackadder has identified as the Evening Herald so the Indo is not the only newspaper source.
The chanting is not the only association with militant republicanism e.g. naming clubs after IRA members. I made a statement I have provided sources (maca accepted this as unacceptable). I stand over it. Deny it if you wish. Minimise it if you wish. It happened. Learn from it. Move on.
Regrettably, many components of the Official Guide of the GAA are off putting to us Irish of a Unionist persuasion.
By wanting to debate this, it should not always be construed as “GAA bashing” etc.
I agree with Fair Deal in that is the business solely of the GAA to change, if they want to change.
For the time being, it cannot claim to be an inclusive 32 county sporting organisation, when it de facto excludes 20% of the island’s population (ie unionists) by virtue of the puesdo political, mono cultural rantings contained in certain sections of the Official Guide.
I have debated these at length with many GAA people on many occassions.
Often I am told that they are a relic of the GAA’s history, or that nobody cares about them.
If nobody cares, confine them to the dustbin at the next Congress.
Fair_Deal,
GAA president Sean Kelly on the incident:
“I have been at various places where a few louts would have shouted in the middle of a minutes silence and it would be either because they didnt fully understand what was going on or maybe were trying to show a bit of bravado. In this instance, youd want to know the motivation.”
Apparently, they are considering getting rid of the minute silence idea altogether in future. Is that learning, I don’t know.
“I seem to have got invovled in a debate on the GAA even though I wasn’t particularly interested in one.”
well, then maybe you shouldn’t have posted on a thread about GAA then!!
Fair deal,
“FOR THE THIRD TIME I DON’T CARE.”
Jesus man, take it easy. If you post something people are entitled to respond. If you didn’t want a response then why post in the first place??
Realist
“By wanting to debate this, it should not always be construed as “GAA bashing” etc.”
The key word there is “debate”. In most cases (on Slugger) there is more bashing than debate. We all welcome debate on the subject.
And in that regard it is not a matter for the GAA alone, no point debating just amongst ourselves, or how else will we know what the problems are?
I’ve never heard any pro-IRA chants at all. At the Ulster final supposedly a small group on the hill shouted something but the surrounding crowd told them to shut up. Can’t wait for the Dublin and Tyrone game. I almost feel priviledged going to Croke Park and watching a good game of football, instead of having to watch boring soccer.
maca,
“The key word there is “debate”. In most cases (on Slugger) there is more bashing than debate. We all welcome debate on the subject.
And in that regard it is not a matter for the GAA alone, no point debating just amongst ourselves, or how else will we know what the problems are?”
As you are well aware, on previous GAA threads I have tried to offer constructive comment on how things might be changed to remove the political content of the GAA constitution, thus rendering it a more inclusive sporting body.
I am happy to engage with any GAA member/supporter on this matter at any time.
That said, the power to change lies solely with the membership of the GAA.
Is it just me or do i detect a hint of jealousy of the GAA coming from mr donaldson and his likes
Realist
“As you are well aware, on previous GAA threads I have tried to offer constructive comment “
My previous comments wasn’t directed at you, btw, it was just a general observation. Very few people are actually willing to genuinely debate the subject.
I almost feel priviledged going to Croke Park and watching a good game of football, instead of having to watch boring soccer.
Never mind that caveman football nonsense – when Down are gracing Croker in the Liam McCarthy Cup next year – then you can feel privileged!
maca,
“The key word there is “debate”. In most cases (on Slugger) there is more bashing than debate. We all welcome debate on the subject.
And in that regard it is not a matter for the GAA alone, no point debating just amongst ourselves, or how else will we know what the problems are?”
As you are well aware, on previous GAA threads I have tried to offer constructive comment on how things might be changed to remove the political content of the GAA constitution, thus rendering it a more inclusive sporting body.
I am happy to engage with any GAA member/supporter on this matter at any time.
That said, the power to change lies solely with the membership of the GAA.
On that subject, Ringo, would you consider the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups a success
And moreover, follwoing the successful introduction of warwickshire to the championship at NHC level this year, would you support the further introduction of Scotland, Lancashire, Yorkshire and Hertfordshire in the future to the all-ireland programme?
Personally, an all-Britain or all-england championship feeding into the all ireland would be a great advance methinks. Apparently the London Warwickshire match this year ws very well attended (though i stand to be corrected)
Beach Tree
I thinkt he Christy Ring and Nicky Rickard cups have been a huge success. Louth and London’s hurlers will both have a chance to grace Croke Park, soemthing that was unthinkable a few years ago. I support the further integration of the exile teams, however only if they are fit to compete. London playing in the Ulster championship hasn’t bveen a huge success due to the gulf between themselves and the likes of Antrim. Perhaps initially, as you suggest, the teams you mention could have their own comeptition with the prize for the victors a place in the Nicky Rackard Cup.
I was thinking that currently, neither the Ulster championship, nor the (now non-existant) Connacht championhip lead to the All-Ireland Qualifier series. THere is no reason why an england (or even all-europe) competion has to lead to the All-Ireland qualifier series either – but it would allow those teams first a crack at each other for a provincial title (big day out, say in london), then a crack at probably the Nicky Rackard (and another possible day out in Dublin,m as well as one or maybe two interesting trips for the fans – cheap air fares, gotta love em), and then perhaps over time Christy and even Liam.
I know that Lnacashire is at least as strong as Warwickshire, but the BRumbies simply had the balls to take the leap – they lost each match, but took no hammerings, gave good accounts of themselves and enriched the compettion – and surely the Scottish shinty contingent could be put to some use?
I also like the idea of each championship being larger as you go down the pyramid – say two groups at liam level, 3-4 at Christy, and 4-6 at Nicky – has a meritorious effect in my opinion on standards.
There’s already a pretty succesful European league and a sucessful, though seperate, all-britain championship – why not really give them something to play for – a provincial title (or even 2 – one england/britian, the other europe) and a crack at a big Croker final?
It’d be fantastic to see more involvement from teams in GB. Maybe they could make England, Scotland & Wales “counties”, like they have done with Europe. That might give them a chance to put together a stronger team from the regions … don’t know if that’s workable or not, just a suggestion.
And great to see London making it to Croker!
London have a fine croker tradition.
Indeed there’s been a londer with the all-ireland winning football and hurling team every year for donkeys – Liam and Sam!
As far as I know there is decent GAA in scottish Unis but only really in glasgow at club level – Scotland would have to be an etire county for the moment.
Given the distances involved, seperate counties in England make sense, as well as added definition to the exiles – making it easier to offer the games to young 2nd and 3rd generationers.
Wales has littel GAA i’m aware of – outside the University of Cardiff. France however has three Breton teams alone, as well as paris gaels, germany has a thriving gaelic games community and the spanish are on their way toa fourth club.
The real difficulty actually are the New yorkers- who deserve their day in the sun, but can’t be doing that amount of travelling on a regular basis.
St Mary’s Strawberry Hill won the Trench Cup (University B championship) last year which I think was a first. They weren’t far and away the best team in Britain either from what I heard.
Realist
“As you are well aware, on previous GAA threads I have tried to offer constructive comment “
My previous comments wasn’t directed at you, btw, it was just a general observation. Very few people are actually willing to genuinely debate the subject.
discriminatory and outdated?whatever you say kenny.there is no rule which forbids protestants from playing is there?dont even try to equate the gaa to the orange order or any other protestant organisation
reality check,
You are absolutely correct…there are no rules excluding Protestants.
There are several rules and practices which, de facto, exclude unionists.
Get the difference?
I consider myself a socialist. Do you think that the practices and social side of Polo excludes me?
I’d get over my politics if i really wanted to partake in some Polo playing.
It the game that counts for most.
Realist
Perhaps dear boy that is the problem.
It’s your own political persuasion that excludes you.
There’s a difference between “they won’t allow me to join because I disagree with them” and ” I don’t want to jon because I disagree with them”
I’ll put this way – I don’t accept that the Ulster Unionist Party ‘excludes me’ because I’m not unionist – the truth is I disagree with them and i don’t want to join.
On the other hand the Orange Order specifically ban me from joining them regardless of how I feel because of my perceived religious persuasion (and bizarrely because of my father’s!).
THere’s no rule in the GAA of which I’m aware that says that all members must share all official positions of the Association.
I can’t help but feel that it’s not the supposed exclusion you want banished. It’s the very idea of being pro-UI.
Realist – the money I spend has the monarchs face, the courts I work in are HM courts, and the Crown court, the prisons I must unfortunately visit in my job are HM prisons, the highest level of my profession is the Queen’s Council, Her majesty takes my tax through her Treasury and Custom and excise (both called HM) – my work place flies the flag of the british state every day.
I like none of these things, i find them all a constant reminder that my beliefs, culture, antionality and political ideals are not being met, and that certain portions of society, including my work place, some of my colleagues and my politicians have no intention of meeting them.
If i told you that that was exclusionary, you’d have a fit, though unlike the GAA I have little or no choice in engagoing in most of these matters. But I ENGAGE the system, even as i want to change it. I don’t let it dictate the money I spend, the goods i but or the Job I do. Or for that matter what sport I watch or play.
THe problem is not that the GAA supports a political idea you don’t share – it’s that it supports a political idea that you find so utterly repulsive you can’t tolerate it’s existance around you.
And frankly, that’s excluding yourself.
Now if you don’t want to play in the “Bobby Sands” cup or what ever its called, I’ve no problem with that. If you won’t join Maraid Farrell GFC for the same reason, you’re within your rights. I’ll even support your attempt to change the names – that seems to me a reasonable request, because regardless of your views on him, he’s clearly a highly controversial and divisive figure at this point in time.
But let’s have some honesty – NOT BEING Irish and Gaelic things, and LOATHING Irish and/or Gaelic things are two different standpoints – the first is no problem, the second is just bigotry.
THere’s no rule in the GAA of which I’m aware that says that all members must share all official positions of the Association.
From the GAA Guide
Membership
18(a) Full membership shall be open to all
persons of eighteen years or over who
subscribe to and undertake to further the
aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic
Association, as stated in General Rules.
Basic Aim
2 The Association is a National organisation
which has as its basic aim the strengthening of
the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland
through the preservation and promotion of
Gaelic Games and pastimes.
The Beach Tree,
“I can’t help but feel that it’s not the supposed exclusion you want banished. It’s the very idea of being pro-UI.”
Why does it have to be political at all?
It cannot claim to be inclusive, when it tacitly supports a political ideal which is not supported by approx 20% of people on the island of Ireland.
“THe problem is not that the GAA supports a political idea you don’t share – it’s that it supports a political idea that you find so utterly repulsive you can’t tolerate it’s existance around you.”
I most certainly do not find the political ideal of nationalism/republicanism “repulsive”…I find them wholly legitimate, although I do not share them. They are around me on a daily basis…my friends, work colleagues (my boss is a former GAA player and referee with a South Armagh Club), people I do business with etc, etc
Why does a modern Irish sporting organisation have to have “political ideals”? Political ideals are divisive.
“NOT BEING Irish and Gaelic things, and LOATHING Irish and/or Gaelic things are two different standpoints – the first is no problem, the second is just bigotry.”
You fall into the usual trap of making out that anyone who does not sure the mono cultural view of “Irish” is a bigot.
I’m Irish, so therefore I don’t “loath” Irish things, as you so revealingly put it.
I support the Irish Rugby team for example…an sporting body established on the same basis as the GAA – 4 province, 32 county.
It doesn’t have any “political ideals” to alienate any section of the inhabitants of Ireland.
I have had the pleasure and privilege to discuss these matters with GAA members much less blinkered than your goodself.
If your only contribution to the discussion is that I must be a bigot because I have fundamental difficulties with the rules and ethos of the GAA, I’d rather not bother continuing debate with you thanks.
Any GAA fan,
Taking the “basic aim”, as kindly detailed by GAA Fan above, would it weaken your love of the games if it read as follows?
“The Association is an Irish sporting organisation which has as its basic aim the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”
The Beach Tree,
“I can’t help but feel that it’s not the supposed exclusion you want banished. It’s the very idea of being pro-UI.”
Why does it have to be political at all?
It cannot claim to be inclusive, when it tacitly supports a political ideal which is not supported by approx 20% of people on the island of Ireland.
“THe problem is not that the GAA supports a political idea you don’t share – it’s that it supports a political idea that you find so utterly repulsive you can’t tolerate it’s existance around you.”
I most certainly do not find the political ideal of nationalism/republicanism “repulsive”…I find them wholly legitimate, although I do not share them. They are around me on a daily basis…my friends, work colleagues (my boss is a former GAA player and referee with a South Armagh Club), people I do business with etc, etc
Why does a modern Irish sporting organisation have to have “political ideals”? Political ideals are divisive.
“NOT BEING Irish and Gaelic things, and LOATHING Irish and/or Gaelic things are two different standpoints – the first is no problem, the second is just bigotry.”
You fall into the usual trap of making out that anyone who does not sure the mono cultural view of “Irish” is a bigot.
I’m Irish, so therefore I don’t “loath” Irish things, as you so revealingly put it.
I support the Irish Rugby team for example…an sporting body established on the same basis as the GAA – 4 province, 32 county.
It doesn’t have any “political ideals” to alienate any section of the inhabitants of Ireland.
I have had the pleasure and privilege to discuss these matters with GAA members much less blinkered than your goodself.
If your only contribution to the discussion is that I must be a bigot because I have fundamental difficulties with the rules and ethos of the GAA, I’d rather not bother continuing debate with you thanks.
Any GAA fan,
Taking the “basic aim”, as kindly detailed by GAA Fan above, would it weaken your love of the games if it read as follows?
“The Association is an Irish sporting organisation which has as its basic aim the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”
Realist
“Taking the “basic aim”, as kindly detailed by GAA Fan above, would it weaken your love of the games if it read as follows?”
It would make no difference since most GAA fans probably haven’t read the basic aims anyway.
But before you ask why isn’t it therefore changed, it’s probably not changed because few of those who have actually read it pay it any heed.
maca,
I do not believe for one minute that the majority of GAA members are unaware of the basic aim of the Association.
In joining, members “subscribe to” and “undertake to further” those aims.
In fact, Clubs are “governed” by this.
Ignorance of the (self made) law is no defence.
Most members did not seem so ignorant of the content of Rule 42 not so very long ago.
Realist
“I do not believe for one minute that the majority of GAA members are unaware of the basic aim of the Association.”
Believe what you want, that’s my own opinion. I first saw the guide book about 2 years ago, and only then because one was sent to me.
“Ignorance of the (self made) law is no defence.”
What law?? It’s a friggin guidebook.
“Most members did not seem so ignorant of the content of Rule 42 not so very long ago.”
For obvious reasons. Ask members what rules 34 or 45 are (for example, pick a number) is and i’d be surprised if 1 person could anwser you.
realist
Are you playing the same role on this thread as you critisised others for on the we exist thread.
You accused many contributors on that thread (about the n.ireland football team) of using sport as a political football and that many were only critical because of their own sectarian hatred.
The roles seem to have reversed.
Reality check,
“discriminatory and outdated?whatever you say kenny.there is no rule which forbids protestants from playing is there?dont even try to equate the gaa to the orange order or any other protestant organisation.”
Given that Mr Donaldson has not contributed to this blog-thread on Slugger, I will happily assume his puppeteer.
As far as I can see Mr Donaldson at no time claimed or inferred that the GAA forbids protestants from playing the game. Neither did he compare the GAA with the Orange Order or any other oranisation for that matter.
Reality check – You should participate in the discussion which is taking place. Stop seeing things that aren’t there.
Mr Donaldson set the ball rolling so that this particular debate could take place.
I, as a keen GAA enthusiast commend him for doind so. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity. His wish to see the GAA become “more inclusive” is a wish that I share, as do many of my friends.
Unlike you, who think’s all is rosy, I know the GAA’s failings, I accept that the organisation needs to revisit it’s constitution and radically reform its’ content.
In a previous post I said: “Perhaps Mr Donaldson has proven a point in all of this that; nationalists broadly welcome dialogue from all quarters whereas many within unionism seem to wish to control and censor debate.”
I now find that I have to some extent, extract that statement.
In truth, it is you, a fellow supporter/player? who needs to take a “reality check” and not Mr Donaldson, the unionist.
County Armaghman
Realist
I think you’ve missed the entire point of my post.
First, I didn’t say you were a bigot personally.
I presented a series of logical points that may or may not have applied to you. Personally you have struck me as awkward, hardline, a little stubborn, and suspicious of ‘themuns’ but also essentially honest, not a bigot as such, occasionally quite funny and open to debate.
Indeed the sadness is that the few who are completely bigotted against the majority community on the island and its cultural heritage (and lets be honest, there are a fair few of them) tend to tar those who are suspicious for more genuine reasons (i.e yourself) with the same brush.
If i have appeared guilty of that, I apologise – I would hope my openness to further british participation in our sports, my enjoyment of the Scottish, Gaelic (and essnetially presbyterian!) game of shinty, and my desire for the ROI to take part in the commonwealth games would have suggested that I am more open to debate than you have suggested.
I think the border is a poisonous thing, even in sport. Without making any discussion on the existance or not of the political border, whatever brings North and South together, to enjoy the whole of Ireland, and each other, together is in my view a good thing – as I might add is anything that brings the nations of Britain and Ireland together for the same purpose.
I support the Down in the GAA, British and Irish Lions in Rugby, Europe in the Ryder Cup, Ulster in Rugby, Northern Ireland in the Commonwealth games and england in the cricket – I think I’m more open to the vaguries of identity than you imagine.
Second, surely even you can see that the ‘national identity’ of a ’32 county ireland’ while admitted loaded towards an all-ireland way of seeing things does not of itself necessarily mean support for political and territorial unity.
Indeed, one could argue that by featuring a 32 county all-ireland team as the ‘national’ team, the IRFU (rugby union) are actually doing exactly what the GAA claims it wants to do – helping forge a 32-county ‘national identity’ (which as it happens transends the political borders currently in existance) by playing as a united team.
If you don’t subscribe to that, presumably you want Northern Ireland ina new Seven Nations. good luck with that 😉
maca,
“What law?? It’s a friggin guidebook.”
It’s the “Official Guide”, which contains the “Constitution and Rules of the GAA”.
You should read Rule 22.
alyn,
“You accused many contributors on that thread (about the n.ireland football team) of using sport as a political football and that many were only critical because of their own sectarian hatred.”
Unfortunately it is the constitution and rules of the GAA which turn it into a “political football”, not me. I have no “sectarian hatred”, should you be implying same.
County Armaghman,
An excellent post.
The Beach Tree,
You miss my main point too.
If the GAA wish to promote mono culturalism on the island of Ireland, that’s ok.
But at least lets call it as that.
It’s just strange that when unionists call it for what it is, they are automatically branded bigots.
Why be offended when the GAA is called mono cultural…that’s what it says on the tin?
It’s just that there is more than one “culture” on the island.
If you do not cater for all cultures, you are exclusive. The Orange Order is exclusive , for example.
It’s not rocket science.
Realist
It’s just that there is more than one “culture” on the island.
So what? Yes the GAA is by definition an organisation set up to nurture one particular culture on the island and even further afield.
The point you seemed determined to miss is that the GAA is a gateway to that culture for all – regardless of their colour, creed, address, social status etc…
If you do not cater for all cultures, you are exclusive. The Orange Order is exclusive , for example.
Yes the orange order is exclusive, because it excludes sections of the population – and I don’t have a problem with that. The GAA on the otherhand is not exclusive – no more than Birdwatch Ireland is exclusive because they exclude mammals and fish from their activities.
Bottom line is that it is not about Irish people playing Irish games – it is about people playing Irish games. That makes it fundamentally different from the OO.
Realist,
as I’ve already stated, there is a key difference between the OO and the GAA. The OO specifically BANS me from membership. The GAA pursues no such practice.
I do not accept that the GAA is monocultural – though I might add that if it were, there is nothing wrong with that so long as it is ‘positively’ monocultural – i.e. applauding and supporting a culture it appreciates, as opposed to denigrating one it dislikes – another area where the OO conspicuously fail.
To my mind it promotes a series of games that came from one culture (irish gaelic, from midle ages on), a language that came from several cultures (celtic language group with roots in Scotland, wales, Cornwall, Ireland, France and even spain), on a county basis invented by yet another culture (norman french)and enforced by yet another (anglo-norman english).
The GAA is well capable of absorbing other cultures when it is in the interests of the GAA’s members and fans.
It’s a key feature of ulster life unfortunately that in many cases the community I come from is defined mostly by what it IS, while the other large community, despite its own best interests, is bent on defining itself by what it ISN’T.
For example, the OO is open to all members of the reformed faith – and makes no distinction between COI and Free P. Now, my knowledge of theology leads me to believe that the COI on actual religious grounds is in reality closer to RC than Free P – and yet the COI, Presbyterians, Free P, Lutherans et all, can unite in one thing – they’re not catholic.
Now frankly, I think the moniker Presbyterian is far more interesting and deserving of research than Protestant. THere is a genuine Presbyterian Culture in the North of Ulster, clearly different in history to the CoI ulster-english culture in the south of ulster. Both are varied, interesting and different, and each contain very different theologians, artists, writers, thinkers, industrialists, even sports!
And yet all this is given a back seat in the name of finding something to unite about, against ‘themuns’.
It’s frankly pitiful. You’re communities should have more self-respect than that.
Now take me – I like a curry, with naan-bread. I like booywood and have always had a fondness for the Miss Worlds who came from India. I like cricket, particularly Tendulkar, and I have several relatives (in laws)of Indian abstraction.
I love indian culture. I don’t have to agree with their views on Kashmir, or be hindu to do that.
I am not indian. No intention of being indian. But it doesn’t make me ANTI-indian.
Further, I do not accept that the rules you pointed out carry the meaning you suggest. The GAA clearly supports irish culture – do you not? Well, me fellow, the GAA is a large part of that culture.
It also clearly supports a (not “the”, “a”)National identity on a 32 county basis through its sports? Do you not? If you support the IRFU national outfit as you say you do, then clearly you do.
If so what is the difference between the GAA and the IRFU that you can’t stomach? Why good IRFU, bad GAA? The Gaelicness of it? OR that it’s mainly your nationalist and/or catholic neighbours who play it?
Essentially you demand that the GAA recognise the state boundries you like. It seems to be you making the demands, not the GAA.
Ringo
would you then support the changing of the basic aim from:
‘2 The Association is a National organisation
which has as its basic aim the strengthening of
the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland
through the preservation and promotion of
Gaelic Games and pastimes.’
to
“The Association is an Irish sporting organisation which has as its basic aim the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”
as has been suggested?
The Beach Tree,
When we cut through the lavish helpings of naan bread and curry, the difference between the IRFU, the GUI and other sporting bodies governed on a 32 county basis is that the GAA (uniquely) makes political statements within it’s very constitution and rule book.
Some of those those political statements are anti unionist.
“The GAA clearly supports irish culture – do you not?”
It doesn’t…it supports ONE Irish culture. I support sporting organisations that embrace all Irish cultures and exclude none by virtue of political ranting.
“It also clearly supports a (not “the”, “a”)National identity on a 32 county basis through its sports? Do you not? If you support the IRFU national outfit as you say you do, then clearly you do”
Unfortunately, it says “the” national identity. There is more than one “national identity” on the island.
The OO, of which I am not a supporter, is an exclusive religious organisation…not a sporting one. OO comparisons are best made with the AOH, not the GAA.
“Essentially you demand that the GAA recognise the state boundries you like. It seems to be you making the demands, not the GAA.”
I am “demanding” nothing. I am asking why does the GAA constitution and rules have political statements inherent within them?
The IRFU has no mention of, or reference to, “state boundaries” within it’s constitution. It is entirely non political.
“And yet all this is given a back seat in the name of finding something to unite about, against ‘themuns’.”
“Themuns”?? Again, you resort to wild insinuations to deflect from the real debate.
Maybe it’s about uniting behind the idea of “Building An Island of Equals” , where sporting organisations are non political?
Richard
Not sure how that is directly related to my post, but I would be delighted to see the GAA remove any reference to a 32-county state from its constitution.
The game of hurling is infinitely more important than the hollow aspiration of a united Ireland.
Realist
“You should read Rule 22”
“The Club
The Club is the basic unit of the Association,
and its object shall be the promotion at local
level of the Associations aims, as stated in this
Official Guide.
A Club shall be obliged to obtain a current
copy of the Official Guide, and its members
shall be deemed to have full knowledge of the
Rules and Regulations in it, and shall be
bound by them. A Club shall be held
responsible for the conduct of its members
and known partisans.”
And? Is there something significant in there?
maca,
Earlier in the thread you said:
“most GAA fans probably haven’t read the basic aims anyway.”
and
“it’s probably not changed because few of those who have actually read it pay it any heed.”
The Official Guide says:
“A Club shall be obliged to obtain a current
copy of the Official Guide, and its members
shall be deemed to have full knowledge of the
Rules and Regulations in it, and shall be
bound by them.”
So, whether you read, heed or care about the rules and regulations, the Association deems members to have full knowledge of them and to be “bound” by them.
I debate on that premise.
Realist
“the Association deems members to have full knowledge of them and to be “bound” by them.”
Whether they do or not it doesn’t mean members do know them, which was my point.
To debate your point, the Association knows full well that certain rules are not adhered to and they appear to have no problem with this, so perhaps we’re not as “bound” as you think, speaking from personal experience.
The association and it’s members don’t take all the rules so seriously, perhaps you shouldn’t either.
maca,
“the Association knows full well that certain rules are not adhered to and they appear to have no problem with this, so perhaps we’re not as “bound” as you think, speaking from personal experience.
The association and it’s members don’t take all the rules so seriously, perhaps you shouldn’t either.”
That’s a quite remarkable statement from your goodself.
It doesn’t stack up too well with the strictness in enforcing the rules displayed by the GAA… particularly when they invoke the “letter of the law” to revoke many motions put before Congress.
Remember the debacle about getting Rule 42 debated before Congress in 2004 for example?
It begs the question, which you appear reluctant to answer…if these rules have little meaning to, or respect from, the membership of the GAA, why have them?
Are you telling me that if a motion to change the wording of General Rule 2 to what I suggested, was put before Congress next year, that it would pass without the bat of an eyelid?
If not, why not?
County Armaghman is frank, realistic and magnanimous in his comments. To remind you, he said:
“I accept that the organisation needs to revisit it’s constitution and radically reform its’ content.”
On the other hand, you and many others are in complete denial it seems.
Never mind the accusations about “themuns”, it seems to be a case of “usuns” when GAA members attempt to defend the indefensible.
Why not remove the divisive and exclusive political rhetoric from the Constitution & Rules immediately?
Can the games stand alone without the political rhetoric?
Time will tell.
There is more than one “national identity” on the island.
Realist
You are a n.i football fan, if you agree that there is more than one identity on the island, why does the governing body of your chosen sporting organisation have a rule about playing the British national anthem and flying the union flag.
How does this encourage the other identity in the country to participate ?
“If you do not cater for all cultures, you are exclusive. The Orange Order is exclusive , for example.”
Are the irish football association not exclusive ?
Are they only inclusive as long as those from the other tradition are happy to stand to an anthem and flag for which they have no affinity.
I think the GAA are not the only sporting organisation which could have the tag
‘ exclusive’ pinned to its shirt
Trev,
“why does the governing body of your chosen sporting organisation have a rule about playing the British national anthem and flying the union flag.”
Which governing body? What rule? What “chosen sporting organisation”? I am not a member of any sporting association, other than a supporters club.
“Are the irish football association not exclusive ?”
No…they are not. Apart that is from a bloody awful rule (soon to be removed) which excludes Clubs from the playing of football on a Sunday. A rule which denies choice to clubs.
“I think the GAA are not the only sporting organisation which could have the tag
‘ exclusive’ pinned to its shirt”
The “Basic Aim” of the IFA is not to “further the British idenity within the six counties of Northern Ireland through the promotion of British games and pastimes”….if it were, I don’t think we would have as many nationalists playing football in Northern Ireland, or as many representing Northern Ireland at International level.
In fact, it’s constitution and rules contain nothing of a political nature whatsoever.
The IFA has NO rules which exclude any particular section of the community.
What the IFA has “pinned to it’s shirt” is a simple Celtic Cross adorned with shamrocks, and with “Northern Ireland” written across it.
Quit the “whataboutery”, and deal with the debate about the GAA’s need to include divisive political rhetoric in their very Constitution.
Realist
“That’s a quite remarkable statement from your goodself.”
Not really. There’s a big difference between Rule 42 and the rule where is says you have to use Irish made paper.
“It begs the question, which you appear reluctant to answer…if these rules have little meaning to, or respect from, the membership of the GAA, why have them?”
I’m not reluctant to answer, indeed I have tried to answer it on previous threads. If you want an exact answer then you’ll need to ask the GAA.
In my own opinion they are not removed simply because they are not important. If I were putting forward motions to congress i’m sure i’d focus on what I consider to be more important issues of the day.
“On the other hand, you and many others are in complete denial it seems”
Then you don’t know me very well and haven’t read any of my posts on the matter on previous threads. A search for these threads might change your opinion.
“Can the games stand alone without the political rhetoric?”
They already do. There is no politics in it for the vast majourity. It exists in the guide book only IMHO.
maca,
“Not really. There’s a big difference between Rule 42 and the rule where is says you have to use Irish made paper.”
Do all rules not flow from the fundamental tenet of the associations “basic aim” or reason d’etre?
“In my own opinion they are not removed simply because they are not important.”
For example, the “basic aim” is “not important”?
For the record, I advocate amending the “basic aim”, not removing it, and removing all of the political rhetoric.
I take it you are in agreement?
Realist
“I take it you are in agreement?”
As i’ve expressed on a number of occasions i’ve no problem with any such sections being re-written or consigned to the scrap heap …
Re Fair deal’s comments:
“behaviour of fans e.g.
1. Booing and pro-IRA slogans shouted during the minutes silence for the London bomb victims.
2. Pro-IRA chants at games.
3. Officials have been assualted by fans.”
1. I was at that game. The number of people booing was in single figures, out of a massive crowd. There were no “Pro-IRA” slogans. To say that there was is an outright fabrication. One guy with a very loud voice said stuff like “What about Fallujah? What about Loughgall?” In short, the objections of this tiny minority of fans was to the fact that the GAA never bothered to have a minute’s silence for non-Western dead; and the guy was objecting to this double-standard. Yes, he did say “what about Loughgall”; but questioning the GAA’s silence on such extra-judicial killings is very different from chanting “up the IRA”; which is the impression Fair Deal’s comments, either through ignorance or malice, are trying to give. I wonder how many people at a soccer match in Linfield would stand in silence for Bloody Sunday?
2. Pro IRA chants at games. This is fantasyland stuff. I have been at thousands of GAA matches over 30 years and have never heard a single “pro IRA” chant anywhere. To assert that this is common practice is ridiculous. GAA fans are interested in inter-parish, inter village, inter county sporting rivalries. We put up County flags, not national flags. Fair deal’s comments here are the usual embittered, small minded DUP rubbish; bigots believing their own closed-loop propaganda. Its like why never hear the rubbish spouted at 12th speeches. Once you take this sort of dribbling away from its natural audience, it reveals itself as embittered ramblings that have almost no foundation in reality.
3. Officials have been assaulted by fans. Yes, I recall an elderly Kerry man taking a swing at the Kerry manager after Tyrone beat Kerry in 2003, but to suggest that this is widespread is rubbish. Far more instructive to speak to the residents around Croke park. When the decision to open up Croke park to other sports who are too administratively inept to have their own stadia was being mooted, the residents around Croke park were reportedly happy to have Rugby fans attend games, and are happy to have GAA fans attend games. They only objected to soccer fans; as we all know what they are like; as recent Irish League incidents involving Crusaders and Gkentoran all too clearly demonstrate.
The basic problem is that Fair Deal resents the fact that Taigs, unlike the Orange Order, can have a day out that doesnt involve communal tension and militaristic parades.
George
“Can anybody who was at the game shed some light on this. How many were there and what was said? Interesting the Sindo doesn’t know either.”
I was at the game and I can only tell you how things seemed to me. I was sitting in the front row of the Upper Canal End, just where it bends into the Hogan. When the minutes’ silence was announced everyone stood and observed it – though I have to admit there were a lot of somewhat surprised looks around.
You could have heard a pin drop where I was – so much so that when someone shouted “Come on Armagh” it was ultra-clear and, I’m pretty sure, came from the Upper Cusack, just where it bends into the Canal. A moment later I heard someone shout “Come on Peter Canavan!”, as clear as if it was into a microphone. I’m pretty sure he was in the Upper Hogan. By now some people around me were tutting pretty demonstratively. Then some fucking wanker shouted “Up the Ra” – I’m pretty sure it came from the Hill. All around me there was muttering and embarrassed looks and quite a degree of anger. And that was the extent of the “chanting”, as far as I could hear it.
When the minutes’ silence ended a hell of a lot of people around me expressed their fury at the shouts – particularly the last one. The general sentiment was that the shouts were deeply embarrassing and would provide all the incentive required for the Sindo et al to wax lyrical about northern savages and the IRA at play etc etc et fucking cetera. And that indeed proved true.
Now, there may have been others, I don’t know (though the fact that I could clearly hear a chant from the Hill to the Canal, the entire length of Croker, suggests how quiet the stadium was for that minute, and how contrasting the shouts were) – but I heard three shouts. One of which was sectarian.
One is too many, even if it’s one out of sixty something thousand. But I’d make the point that there were probably 59,999 people there who would gladly have given the culprit a good slap in the teeth.
Be fair though, folks.
I’d add that in 20 years as a clubman in Armagh I’ve never heard a single sectarian chant at a match. Not once. But that’s my experience. I’d hope that Maca, Ringo George and others would desist from the fallacy that there’s a north/south split in the GAA, and that we’re all provos north of the border.
“I’d hope that Maca, Ringo George and others would desist from the fallacy that there’s a north/south split in the GAA, and that we’re all provos north of the border.”. I rarely comment on GAA threads as it’s neither my field of kwowledge or interest, but I can’t help it here.
There IS a huge split in the GAA. A few months ago there was a vote on allowing internatinally popular sports to be played in Croke Park. All the counties in Nothern Ireland were against, all the counties (with one exception) in the Republic were in support. The one country was out of sync was Cork, where a free vote (which would most likely have changed their vote) had been refused. GGAA members in Northern Ireland may or may not be provos, but they certainly seem to be marching to a different drum than their cohorts in this country.
Billy
“I’d hope that Maca, Ringo George and others would desist from the fallacy that there’s a north/south split in the GAA, and that we’re all provos north of the border.”
Now now! Care to highlight where I ever so much as hinted that you’re all provos north of the border?
As for a north-south split, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a split but there definitly is a difference, and for obvious reasons. The Rule 42 debate should tell you something. Remember how the Rule 21 vote went?
Och I know, you’re probably right Maca, I went a bit OTT just now. But you’re surely aware that there are plenty of people in the northeast who do think that “the GAA is the IRA at play” (unquote, the MP for East Antrim) and you’re surely aware that GAA members in the north have been harrassed and attacked and murdered for decades.(No, this is not a sob story, bear with me.)
What you may not realise though, is that even something relatively innocuous like making a GAA-related argument but ending with the caveat that “of course in the north it’s different” or whatever gives succour to those who hate the GAA, to those who demonise the GAA and for those who have murdered GAA officials. So please, be careful.
Yes, there is a difference, but don’t exaggerate it. You say that Rule 42 and Rule 21 highlighted differences. Agreed, they did. (Though of course Down voted to remove 21 while Cork voted to retain 42). I’d also point out that these rules provoked intense debate in every single county in Ireland and though the majorities were decisive, the minorities were significant.
With Rule 21, I have always felt that the northern counties voting against change did so in the sure knowledge that they could not prevent change. Those votes, in my opinion, represented a parting shot, nothing more. In the four years since that change I would point out that there has not been any movement or a single significant voice calling for the decision to be revoked. There has been no northern backlash. There has been no split, there was no populist ranting about “southerners” or any of that old crap. When the PSNI play the Gardai, there are no protests.
Furthermore, in the north there was widespread support for change with Rule 42 – I’ve spoken about the issue to clubmen from at least four of the six counties about the issue and they have all said the same thing I would say – the county delegates and officials (politburo would be a more accurate way of putting it) were way out of step with the ordinary membership. Had the issue been put to the membership in a nationwide referendum it would have been passed by acclamation. (Just as, had the original foreign sports ban gone before Congress in 1971, rather than gone to nationawide referendum, it probably would still be with us.)
Of course, if you frame these debates in strictly north-south terms, then Cork is a northern county and, not only are there many thousands of northerners partiticipating in the GAA down south, there are a helluva lot of southerners playing with northern clubs.
Or of course you could say that what we saw was a nationwide vote which showed certain regional tendencies. (And of course those tendencies can be understood with reference to history). But we’re not talking about any kind of schism. Northern Gaels are passionately committed to the unity of the association. If they disagree on any particular issue – and sometimes disagree passionately – they are unanimous on the principle that whatever about internal debates and disputes, the Association stands together.
Keith M
“There IS a huge split in the GAA.”
Of which GAA club are you a member, if you don’t mind my asking?
(The reason I ask is because I suspect you aren’t a member and your knowledge of the GAA comes from various O’Reilly newspapers. I suspect that you care about the GAA insofar as satisifes your own prejudices. If indeed you have any significant knowledge of GAA matters that you have hitherto hidden from us, then fair enough. But frankly, a non-unionist who is happily to infer, on the basis of a mendacious and oblique report in a tainted newspaper, that two northern teams playing in Croker must mean the place is bathed in sectarian bloodlust is, frankly, not someone with whom I wish to debate.
(There are clear political and historical reasons why unionists might leap to such wildly erroneous conclusions but you have no such excuse. And frankly, after the Mo Mowlam thing I’m going to be more circumspect about dealing with you. Frankly, that made me sick, and I’m still feeling kinda queasy about it.)
It’s self-evident that there is nothing that could remotely be described as a split in the GAA, no matter how much you wish there was one.
(Incidentally, that line about “this country” suggests not only that you’re not a GAA member – you despise what it stands for.)
BP, I clearly stated that I had little or no interest in what the GAA gets up to (until their supporters invade my neighbourhood every weekend during the summer). You acknowledge the split in your answer to Maca but strangely you don’t in your answer to me. Very inconsistant.
If you think I gain all my knowledge from Independent Newspapers, then you I suggest you have made a ridiculous assumption in order to avoid my point.
“Incidentally, that line about “this country” suggests not only that you’re not a GAA member – you despise what it stands for.)”
Yes I obviously don’t know very much about the GAA, as I thought it was a sporting organisation and not a political one.
Invaded your neighbourhood there at the weekend Keith – sorry for all the shouting and roaring – we’ll try and keep it down in September.
When the PSNI play the Gardai, there are no protests.
Billy – You’re being disingenous; if there are no protests, why are they playing the guards? Why do they have to come south to get a game? As far as I am aware, no one in the Ulster GAA will play them. This is a very bad reflection on the Ulster GAA in terms of its inability to extract itself from the political situation.
What you may not realise though, is that even something relatively innocuous like making a GAA-related argument but ending with the caveat that “of course in the north it’s different” or whatever gives succour to those who hate the GAA, to those who demonise the GAA and for those who have murdered GAA officials. So please, be careful.
I am very wary of this line of argument – whether it relates to the Ulster GAA or the Bush Admins reponse to criticism of the War on Terror.
Billy –
suspect you aren’t a member and your knowledge of the GAA comes from various O’Reilly newspapers
The best GAA coverage of all is provided by the Independent – its the only reason I’d buy it.
How some “non-sectarian” GAA fans “celebrated” Tyrone’s victory. A sectarian assault on pensioners and kids.
From BBC website
Seven police officers and two band members have been injured after a Royal Black Institution parade was attacked in Castlederg, County Tyrone.
It happened on Saturday as marchers returned from a demonstration in Newtownstewart.
As they passed through the nationalist Ferguson Crescent area people came out of a bar and assaulted marchers and police. Four people were arrested.
UUP assembly member Derek Hussey said the attack was “completely unexpected”.
“Our local district master, who is 75 years of age, was hit and actually had to be hospitalised, he was taken away in an ambulance,” he said.
“Young members of a local pipe band, aged between 10 and 16, were affected traumatically by what went on.
“This has set community relations back in our area – it has set it back 30 years.”
One of the seven injured police officers was treated for a broken cheekbone.
Two elderly band members were also treated for facial injuries. A banner was also torn during the trouble.
Keith M
“I clearly stated that I had little or no interest in what the GAA gets up to (until their supporters invade my neighbourhood every weekend during the summer). You acknowledge the split in your answer to Maca but strangely you don’t in your answer to me. Very inconsistant.”
Hmmm, not sure where you’re getting that from but it isn’t in the text. I looked at a couple of instances where the GAA had a major debate on a divisive issue. Those debates were impassioned and extensive, no doubt. They highlighted a variety of differing opinions, no doubt. What they did not do, however, was reflect anything that could even remotely be described as a split within the GAA. That’s the point I have consistently stuck to.
As I suspected, you have no interest in GAA matters unless they satisfy your prejudices – fair play to you for being honest enough to admit it. I’ve known quite a few anti-GAA bigots in my time who always insisted that they had “no interest in bogball” yet always acted like they were obsessed. I don’t know if you’re one of those Salieri types but you seem to fit the profile.
“If you think I gain all my knowledge from Independent Newspapers, then you I suggest you have made a ridiculous assumption in order to avoid my point.”
Ah no, you may read the Tribune as well. Or the Tele. (I said O’Reilly papers – he owns more than just Independent House.)
“Yes I obviously don’t know very much about the GAA, as I thought it was a sporting organisation and not a political one.”
The GAA is explicitly and proudly a sporting and cultural organisation dedicated to the fostering of Irish culture, language, arts, sports and a 32-county national identity. Most people wouldn’t bang on about the whole 32-county thing too much but the association does provide a fantastic context for people from all parts of the country to develop links with each other – which is, in my opinion, what that phrase means in this day and age.
So yes, I’ll chance my arm and re-state my assumption that you despise the GAA and everything it stands for?
“Billy – You’re being disingenous; if there are no protests, why are they playing the guards? As far as I am aware, no one in the Ulster GAA will play them. This is a very bad reflection on the Ulster GAA in terms of its inability to extract itself from the political situation.”
Why on earth wouldn’t they play the guards? But I take your point: it IS a very bad reflection and no mistake. Oe could point out that CLG PSNI haven’t actually approached any of the county boards about joining any of the county leagues, but I’m not going to play funny buggers with you here. Of course they would make an approach if they thought it wouldn’t create a shit storm. I mean, can you imagine a PSNI team playing in west Belfast or Crossmaglen or Carrickmore? Most of their matches would be fine but there are still nationalist communities that aren’t ready for that yet – which is very sad but nonetheless true. But that’s not a reflection on the GAA, or even on northern gaels as such. It’s a damning reflection on some branches of the northern nationalist family. I know if the PSNI were playing Na Clairsigh Ard Mhacha at Abbey Park some Friday night there would be some sort of a protest but it wouldn’t be club members carrying the pickets. The GAA is in many ways the victim of a social malaise.
“I am very wary of this line of argument – whether it relates to the Ulster GAA or the Bush Admins reponse to criticism of the War on Terror.”
Och gimme a break Maca.
I’m not saying you should to give carte blanche to the nordies. I’m not saying you should to be uncritical or even to tone down your many reasonable criticisms. I’m not saying you owe northerners any support on issues like 21 or 42. Jesus, I’m not saying you owe northerners anything – except recognition that they’re part of the family. Let them be black sheep if you want, but – and this is my point – you should resist any temptation you might have to distance yourself from any part of the family. Don’t let anyone tell you there is a de facto partition within the GAA – there simply isn’t. (I would add that many of the worst GAA partitionists are in the north, with stupid talk about “southern team” and “southern media” and all that silliness.)
If you want to chide or rant, then by all means do so, but let it be familial fury. Don’t invoke the border as a comfort zone. The GAA is one of the few areas of Irish life free of the alienation created by the border. Let’s keep it that way. We’re one association. Let’s have our disagreements but let’s never think of any clubs or counties as “other”. (I know the nordies would do your head in most of the time. I’ll let you into a secret – in Ulster we aren’t terribly impressed by the middle-class cringe of our Leinster brethren. Apologies if you’re not actually a Leinster man. And are the Connacht ones addicted to pessimism or what?)
Ringo
“The best GAA coverage of all is provided by the Independent – its the only reason I’d buy it.”
Sorry Ringo, I wasn’t clear in my post. I should have made it clear – I meant that people like Keith M get their knowledge of the GAA from the news section and opinion columns of the Sindo et al. I doubt they ever read Mr O’Reilly’s (sometimes excellent) sports coverage. Though I’d respectfully suggest that the Irish Times have the best sports writers in town – they seem a very talented bunch (Humphries is the master, Duggan and Moran excellent too and this youngster Cummiskey looks like one to watch) yet also seem less egotistical than their (in my opinion, lesser rivals) over at Middle Abbey Street. The Irish News also has an excellent sports team, though they are of a more Ulster-centric bent.
BFITW
“How some “non-sectarian” GAA fans “celebrated” Tyrone’s victory. A sectarian assault on pensioners and kids.”
This incident was shameful and disgusting – but what’s it got to do with the GAA? Ok, I know they were Fenians in Co Tyrone, so no doubt they follow the Red Hands, but Jesus, there’s no mention of the GAA in this report. In fact, Tyrone had a huge match yesterday, 200 miles from Castlederg. Some drunken rabble back home – with such strong links to the GAA that they didn’t even go to the match – attacked a band parade. Where’s the link? Maybe they were watching it on TV? Please.
Billy
Re: your August 24 03:19 PM
Ok, fair points. I do often stress the North-South differences too much, I think I see where you’re coming from.
Re:
“Och gimme a break Maca”
Re read the post you were responding to … more specifically the author.
“Best_fans_in_the_world”
“How some “non-sectarian” GAA fans “celebrated” Tyrone’s victory. A sectarian assault on pensioners and kids.”
You back that up by posting an article which doesn’t even mention the GAA … I see you are one of the clever ones in your family.
A loyalist parade passing through a nationalist area resulted in trouble, nothing new there. And nothing to do with the GAA.
This incident has sweet f.a. to do with the GAA. It has more to do with the incresing ‘soccer-isation’ of certain sections of fans, most notably in the Ulster counties and Dublin.
The recent suggestion by big Joe Kernan that segregation may be required around the dug-outs is one example of it. Very sad is it becomes necessary.
Of course GAAs decision to sell drink in Croker doesn’t help either.
If people march through areas where they are not wanted, to let the locals know they’re better than them, drunken thugs will always attack them. That’s what drunken thugs do. It doesn’t matter at all what sport they were watching at the time.
PSNI in the GAA? Are you stupid or something? One of our games arms you with a metre-long stick that you are allowed to hit the man with (if he’s in the way of the sliotar)!!! Commonsense.
P.S. Since the Gardaí are famously filthy on the hurling pitch (broken cheekbone, eye-socket and shin here to prove it), I personally would fear the PSNI being given camáin and sent onto a pitch with me. I’ve seen them with batons.
As somebody who grew up in a very staunch GAA environment I can only admire the wonderfully perceptive description of hurling and football by Declan Lynch – “bog-ball and stick fighting”.
The GAA is the pits. It is a magnet for all of the bog-trotting nonsense that has held this country back (north and south) for generations. It brings the myopic provincalism and parochialism of Ireland to new heights. The bizarre nonsense peddled by GAA supporters of every generation that somehow ‘we’ (tiny insignificant county number one) are totally different to ‘them’ (tiny insignificant county number two) in terms of the outlook, personality, behaviour etc. etc. of ‘our’ supporters sums up the staggering insularity of the organisation. It is STILL (despite us now having now entered the twenty first century) utterly priest-ridden. Yes – it’s a great spectacle for tourists on All-Ireland final day, but apart from that it bores me rigid.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m a republican – I just think that GAA is a national embarrasment. (The supporters of association football in Ireland are arguably even worse – but don’t get me started.)
What utter nonsense “bored”. Thanks for giving me a good laugh though.
“This incident was shameful and disgusting but whats it got to do with the GAA? Ok, I know they were Fenians in Co Tyrone, so no doubt they follow the Red Hands, but Jesus, theres no mention of the GAA in this report. In fact, Tyrone had a huge match yesterday, 200 miles from Castlederg. Some drunken rabble back home with such strong links to the GAA that they didnt even go to the match – attacked a band parade. Wheres the link? Maybe they were watching it on TV? Please.”
Billy,
Interesting that when some bigoted patrons of the Botanic Inn Belfast were televised after the Northern Ireland v England game in March singing some unsavoury tunes, sections of the nationalist/republican community were very quick to claim that it had EVERYTHING to do with the IFA…even tho the team was playing in Manchester.
Realist, the two incidents are not comparable and you know it.
As somebody who grew up in a very staunch GAA environment I can only admire the wonderfully perceptive description of hurling and football by Declan Lynch – “bog-ball and stick fighting”.
The GAA is the pits. It is a magnet for all of the bog-trotting nonsense that has held this country back (north and south) for generations. It brings the myopic provincalism and parochialism of Ireland to new heights. The bizarre nonsense peddled by GAA supporters of every generation that somehow ‘we’ (tiny insignificant county number one) are totally different to ‘them’ (tiny insignificant county number two) in terms of the outlook, personality, behaviour etc. etc. of ‘our’ supporters sums up the staggering insularity of the organisation. It is STILL (despite us now having now entered the twenty first century) utterly priest-ridden. Yes – it’s a great spectacle for tourists on All-Ireland final day, but apart from that it bores me rigid.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m a republican – I just think that GAA is a national embarrasment. (The supporters of association football in Ireland are arguably even worse – but don’t get me started.)