Whiterock parade called off

The BBC are reporting that the contentious Whiterock parade, previously scheduled for Saturday, has been called off by the equally contentious North and West Belfast Parades Forum – following two rejected applications to the Parades Commission to reverse its decision to impose restrictions on the parade – the NWBP Forum has said that a protest parade will be held in the Shankill instead.

  • try

    The uvf and uff have their reasons ??

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sounds like an extremely rare occasion to my knowledge – the Orange Order have moved to head off a contentious march and avoid serious public disturbance – seems like a constructive move to me.

    How could anyone have criticism for such a gesture ? Perhaps now nationalists should be considering how a march can be agreed.

  • bill

    Thats difficult when the order refuses to talk to the local residents ??

  • Bored

    There is a precendent here – remember back in 1998 when these twits effectively held the whole city to ransom by their various mutterings about civil unrest etc. etc. etc. before finally doing the decent thing and just calling off their embarrassing juvenile coat-trailing exercises. Needless to say they will now seek some sort of public affirmation for their stance instead of being told in unequivocal terms to just piss off and parade in whatever slack-jawed dull-eyed loyalist ghetto they can get their grubby paws on.

  • Intelligence Insider

    It really is funny how some can attempt to persuade others that an attempt to have a parade would cause ” civil unrest ” when so many of those who would seek to interrupt the same parade would also seek the right to protest where so much of the actual violence comes from! If those within the republican movement are unable to control elements within their own community, surely they cannot expect protestant organisations to do the same!

  • Comrade Stalin

    “…instead of being told in unequivocal terms to just piss off and parade in whatever slack-jawed dull-eyed loyalist ghetto they can get their grubby paws on.”

    What’s the Sinn Fein slogan – “it’s our city too” ?

  • GavBelfast

    The right decision in the circumstances.

    Some people come across as being right pissed-off that they’re missing out on a ding-dong.

    So now they’ll just be Bored.

    Talk about not being able to please, even when they’ve got their way, one way or another, of not having a Prod about the place.

  • PatMcLarnon

    ‘Perhaps now nationalists should be considering how a march can be agreed.’

    Why? The coat trailers have 3000 other such exercises in which to display their bigotry, why can’t they leave nationalists in places like Ardoyne and Springfield to live in peace?

  • Declan

    Intelligence Insider:

    You’re missing the whole point. The nationalist position on parades is this: march if you want to, march if you have to, and you can put on all the blood-curdling anti-fenian displays you want, as long as you do it where you are wanted. If an Orange march wants to beat its sectarian drum outside my door, it will have to ask my permission and it will be under my terms. This is not about denying anyone their culture (Orange culture: what is it?!), but about the Orange Order respecting my rights as a citizen to be able to live my life in peace.

    I couldn’t give a flying feck if the Orange Order have walked my particular road for centuries. Traditions change, demography changes and the Orange Order, and their unemployable, unwashed hangers-on will have to get used to it. The Falls and Andersonstown Roads were once part of a traditional route. Why do the OO not seek to march on these highways anymore?

    This is 2005, not 1925, and the clock will not be turned back. The sooner the Orange Order and their fellow-travelling goons in the UDA realise this, the better.

  • raff

    From its genesis in the peek o’ day boys the Orange Order has courted the violent and thuggish elements of society, with the middle class unionists using the working class to instil fear into the local ‘taigs’.

    Also Orange marches, (for the sake of argument I will include all, RBP, 0OO and Apprentice Boys as Orange, bring with them violence civil disorder and murder. The KKK would not be tolerated marching in many parts of the USA so why should nationalists tolerate a similar sort of organisation marching here? They do not just cause disruption on one day of the year but one a good proportion of the summer, affecting negatively, tourism and the local economy. Do you think that this lawlessness would be tolerated from nationalists?

  • George

    Unfortunately, the Orange Order today warned it is determined to march along the banned and therefore unlawful route before the autumn.

    Whiterock is the most deprived area in Northern Ireland but the OO decides what these people need is another two months of tension to make clear to any potential investor that they shouldn’t put a penny/cent into the area.

    All this tension is costing Belfast millions, if not tens of millions.

    If the Orange Order really gave a damn about Protestant culture in Belfast, they would look at supporting their community rather than helping to further weaken it.

    The population of Protestant West Belfast has dropped to just 24,000 from 74,000 and less than 1% go on to third-level education but what do the OO care? These guys have no common sense.

    Meanwhile, just 100 miles to the south, a quarter of a million peace-loving people will go to see U2 in Croke Park over the weekend, bringing in 60 million euros of revenue for Dublin. Not bad for a weekend’s work.

  • TAFKABO

    “…instead of being told in unequivocal terms to just piss off and parade in whatever slack-jawed dull-eyed loyalist ghetto they can get their grubby paws on.”

    Imagine the furore if anyone described catholics or nationalists as “slope browed barely coherent baboons” ?

    I really think the moderators ought to start taking notice of the sectarian undertones in some peoples posts.

  • Bored

    TAFKABO – the sort of punters who turn out to ‘follow’ Orange parades tend to be overwhelmingly of a dull-eyed, slack-jawed, shell-suit sporting, Elizabeth Duke from Argos jewellery-wearing, deep-fried Mars Bar-munching, incoherent sectarian abuse-spouting, dole, DLA, jobseekers allowance and whatever you’re having yourself-scrounging type of scum. Or maybe you hadn’t noticed?

    Funnily enough, if the mirror image scum of ‘working class’ (Sic) nationalist areas decided to start marching about Belfast, sticking flags on every vertical feature of the city’s landscape and gathering, hoarding and then burning vast piles of tyres, sofas and other shite every summer then I’d also tell them to piss off and leave everybody alone.

    Your point is?

  • TAFKABO

    Bored.

    Let’s put you to the test the, shall we?

    what do you think of the people that have turned the last couple of St Patricks day parade in Belfast city centre into drunken spidefests?
    From what I could see, they seem to fit very well into the description you gave above.

    I look forward to your answer.

  • Comrade Stalin

    “The coat trailers have 3000 other such exercises in which to display their bigotry, why can’t they leave nationalists in places like Ardoyne and Springfield to live in peace?”

    Because everyone, including raving bigots (and their paramilitary friends) from the stone age, have the right of free speech and assembly. Or do you want to lay down the conditions where free speech and assembly do not apply ? In the tribal demarcation zones ?

    Declan wrote :

    “If an Orange march wants to beat its sectarian drum outside my door, it will have to ask my permission and it will be under my terms.”

    Where on earth did you get the right to dictate these terms ? Where does it say you have the right to say who may or may not assemble in a given place ?

    TAFKABO, I don’t think these comments should be moderated. It exposes republicans for what they are. They are entitled to express their bigotry like everyone else.

  • Comrade Stalin

    “The KKK would not be tolerated marching in many parts of the USA so why should nationalists tolerate a similar sort of organisation marching here?”

    Because nationalists are supposed to believe in free speech and assembly ?

  • Bored

    Paddy’s day in Belfast is an embarassing disgrace. The slack-jawed, dull-eyed, tricolour-shaming ferals who wander about are, of course, utter scum. I hold them in equal contempt with the loyalist scum described in my earlier post. That you would assume that I somehow didn’t/don’t consider them so merely speaks volumes of your own miserable prejudice.

  • Robert Keogh

    TAFKABO,

    Imagine the furore if anyone described catholics or nationalists as “slope browed barely coherent baboons” ?

    IF? You have the audacity to say IF?

    None so blind as those who won’t see.

  • Sol

    such misanthropic views

  • Bored

    So TAFKABO – you were saying?

  • tra g

    The close relationship between the orange order,unionist politicians and the uvf & uff can again be witnessed in the joint decision to call off the parade.

  • TAFKABO

    Bored.

    Fair play to you.Obviously a firm believer in parity of contempt.
    Anything I said to the contrary I withdraw.

  • David

    “The KKK would not be tolerated marching in many parts of the USA so why should nationalists tolerate a similar sort of organisation marching here?”

    One of the main freedom of assembly cases in US law involved the Nazis marching through a Jewish district where lots of holocaust survivors lived. The courts upheld the right of the Nazis to march.

    Freedom is for everyone, not just those who agree with you.

  • George

    David,
    did the Nazis turn up 12 months later, and every 12 months thereafter, demanding their traditional right to march through Jewish areas?

  • PatMcLarnon

    ‘Because everyone, including raving bigots (and their paramilitary friends) from the stone age, have the right of free speech and assembly. Or do you want to lay down the conditions where free speech and assembly do not apply ? In the tribal demarcation zones ?’

    No one is stopping the raving bigots and their paramilitary friends from speaking freely or in deed assembling, just as long as they do it where they are wanted and don’t cause offence.

  • martin

    I suppose we should be grateful that those of the slackjaw,Neandrathal type have less than 2 brain cells between the lot of them–can you imagine what amount of internal Unionist/loyalist infighting would occur if those of the slack-jaw ever realised how much contempt their well-healed-bowler-hat wearing stiff-upperlipped Orange brothers actually have for them—-What if one of the slack-jawed asked for a job in one of the Ascendancy classes firms–Would he get a refference? I THINK NOT

  • martin

    Sorry about my atrocious spelling

  • raff

    Comrade Stalin,

    “Because everyone, including raving bigots (and their paramilitary friends) from the stone age, have the right of free speech and assembly”

    You seem to forget that Sinn Fein was not allowed to be heard on British and Free State media not so long ago. Ever hear of section 31?

  • tomasmaguire

    I had an interesting experience in Dunmurray last evening whereby five or six loyalist bands marched from the local orange hall to the top of the street and back.

    Among the bands were the lambeg one, the derriaghy one the notorious B.I.G. stoneyford one, a Falls road one at least thats what their banner said, a black’s road one and a more overly religious one which had the orange order walking behind it. On the pavement where pocket’s of supporters there to watch the event.

    The parade took up one side of the road, and even at that traffic wasn’t stopped for any great length of time. There were unbelievably only three PSNI on duty indeed one was traffic on a motorbike. From what I could see the locals didn’t give it a second glance … it was over and done with in about 40 minutes.

    There were no displays of sectarian hatred, no taunts, no threats its was all very civilised. In short no ones blood was up, they had nothing to rile against and everything went straight forward and clearly no laws were broken.

    So this is what a loyalist parade in a loyalist area looks like i thought to myself (It was my first) No drama, no offense, no adrenalin rush for them (I admit mine went sky-high when i realised what was happening) no Fenian’s to jeer and taunt. And finally I realised it was the distinct absence of hate which made the scene appear so normal. In that moment I realized too the appeal of travelling way out of their way to hate and be hated was immensely seductive I mean other-ways, whats the point?

    Then today on my way down to a friend’s house in Bangor I drove down the Springfield and watched the PSNI in their quasi-paramilitary get-ups laughing and joking about over time while hyping themselves up for a fight.

    Meanwhile 100 yards down the road the provo policia once again parachuted in from all over the city were huddled together in their conspiratorial groups whispering with hardly a Springfield local to be seen about the place.

    By the time i got to Lord Warden in Bangor and drove through the unfazed domesticity and wealthy closes and parades where many’s as PSNI man and orange order veteran lives I couldn’t help but think such a puppets pantomime of farce the whole thing is and maybe it was about time we started thinking outside of our own ‘traditional routes’ and force this summer’s pantomime of disruption away from our houses and our roads and back up the M3 and home with them to theirs !!!

    Tomas

  • Roger

    I can see that the nationalist community is showing it typical tolerance and acceptance for the orange culture, it brings a tear to the eye,

  • Henry94

    Last year was the first marching season I posted on Slugger and there was a noticable retreat into tribal positions on all sides. I can certainly feel the emotional reaction in myself to the whole thing and I’m sure the rest of you are the same.

    It is a sign of our conditioning and immaturity that we can’t sort this out amoung ourselves and need the Parade Commission to impose solutions based on what the outside world regards as balance and common sense.

    The principles are now established that residents have a right to prevent marches where they are not welcome and that the way to get through such areas for marches is through dialogue and negotiation.

    The only real question is how long it will take for all that to sink in.

  • Female Voter

    I would have thought this issue as a non starter due to the fact that the orange order is small consisting of old men with its number decreasing all the time I hear that membership is as low as under 20000 the marching season will surely be gone by 2010 so much for loyalty, dont make me laugh.

  • Comrade Stalin

    “just as long as they do it where they are wanted and don’t cause offence.”

    Is it illegal to be unwanted ?

    Is it illegal to “cause offence” ?

    Some of the opinions being expressed here are pretty offensive, but it would be outrageous to ask for them to be removed for that reason. Anyone who suggested so would quite rightly be accused of restricting free speech.

  • Comrade Stalin

    raff, nice decent into whataboutery there. I haven’t forgotten that the British government applied censorship to a party here, and I have never supported such measures. Do you ?

  • PatMcLarnon

    ‘Some of the opinions being expressed here are pretty offensive, but it would be outrageous to ask for them to be removed for that reason. Anyone who suggested so would quite rightly be accused of restricting free speech.’

    I’m unaware that comments posted on this thread have contributed to murder and mayhem. Unfortunately for the supporters of sectarian parades the same cannot be said for their coat trailing exercises.

  • raff

    C. Stalin,

    Decent into whataboutery? – Please tell me where that has occurred, too much ego and not enough knowledge!

    I have never supported such measures. Do you?

    What are you on about? If that is the best rebuttal you can think of, (I’m not but you are!), I would advise spending less time in the playschool yard!!

    Orange Marches for many people are nothing more than large groups of pissed up loyalists and unionists using the notion of free assembly to stoke the fires of sectarianism, allowing them to lord it over the ‘taigs’ and if possible causing a backlash from the nationalist community which they can use to justify not allowing Republicans to share power.

    They show the rest of the world the worst side of the people here, and hold us all up to ridicule. Republicans commemorate their people/struggle here at Easter, yet they manage to avoid major confrontations and are able to hold their parades in a solemn and respectful way within their own areas, maybe some of the Orange Order could take note, and not show themselves and the majority of the unionist/loyalist people as thugs and bigots.

  • Bored

    Raff – you’re half right. Ever been to any of those Easter ‘commemorations’ – yup, full to the gills with the same sort of untermensch scum that one normally finds at Orange ‘celebrations’. Personally I can’t understand why Republicans bother with parades, marches etc. etc. – there’s no real tradition of it in Republicanism and it looks to many objective observers like a half-arsed attempt to ape the olympic-standard twittery and buffoonery of the Orange ‘Order’.

  • raff

    I personally don’t mind marches. I think if people want to celebrate/commemorate or what ever then if they can muster enthusiasm and support well away they go. The problem I, and by the look of this post, many others have, is that many parades are not there to celebrate/commemorate, but to instil fear and hatred. Then we have a bunch of half wits barely able to get a spark out of their single brain cell justifying these, and showing a complete lack of empathy with anyone other than themselves.

    I have had the dubious honour of being at both Republican parades and Orange marches, there is a world of difference – much of the same bigotry and hatred is there, but the manner and restraint at the Republican parades is much more commendable.

  • Guggler

    Why oh why are these ‘CHAV’ ‘people’ being tolerated in today’s society whether they’re orange or green ? I find it disgraceful that a modern western state allows these layabout vagabond scum out onto the roads, whether to march or to counter-demonstrate. Let’s not be coy here, the vast majority of these stone-throwing yahoos are ill-educated layabout jetsam who are a constant source of bother throughout the year. They do not pay tax, they do not respect the law, they do not respect each other and are never giving over about what they are entitled to. Police resources should not be deployed protecting them from one another, the primary priority is to protect law-abiding educated people in decent (and clean) neighbourhoods from these knuckle-dragging corner-boy spongers and the remainder should be deployed, alongside the military, rounding them up, as forcibly as necessary, and herding them into hard labour camps, if needs be with the assistance of bullwhips and batons. Therein they should be more than welcome to batter each other into the gutters where they belong – a decent society would expect no less.

    May the cat eat their dole cheques begorrah !

  • Bored

    Well said the Guggler!

  • G-man

    Has there ever been a specific debate on here about the extent to which the “British” population in NI either supports or is opposed to the Orange Order, Orange marches, flute bands and the flags-flying from every lampost etc etc aspect of Unionism.

    I for one am appalled and embarrassed by it. Earlier today I went down the road to my hometown to visit the relatives – a lovely little place apart from the horrendous orange arch that has been erected (for the first time) at the entrance to one of the local housing estates and the selction of UJ’s being flown at the entrance to the town.

    I suspect lots of other British people (or people with British leanings/sympathies) can’t stand this stuff either but most people don’t want to stand up to it for fear of a brick coming through the window or worse. (Has any proddy poltician ever been brave enough to stand up to this ?)

    As for culture – Orange “culture” and all its related shite ain’t my culture but I am no less British for it.

  • DK

    I have made a couple of contributions on this topic under the thread:

    “Inevitability of Summer Troubles.”

    My general approach was to try to articulate how the issue is viewed through the eyes of decent people in the OO in the hope of convincing some that maybe there was some validity on their side and therefore continually and unjustly, demonising them is unhelpful.

    I don’t think that anyone on that thread seriously challenged the key points.

    It is my firm belief that the majority of the unionist people are decent people as are those from the republican community. “Bored” and “Guggler” are correct to remind us of the quality of individual that is all too often encountered at these events. The “Underclass” is well and truely alive across NI, Green and Orange. That is an huge issue in itself, irrespective of which marches they nail their colours to. The OO and counter protesters have created a perfect environment to encourage that lot to spill out of their drinking lairs and indulge in hatred and violence.

    As already stated, my previous contributions were made in, if not a defence, then certainly an appeal for understanding of the OO position, always with the caveat that I had no affinity for them. Not a great return, although some such as JD did show signs of wanting to find solutions which do not “vilify the other side”.

    Having thought further on it, and trying once again to wear the other mans shoes, I have to come out against the OO based on the following rational:

    The points that I have articulated in the earlier threads, clearly show that the OO have legal right on their side in a modern democratic society, irrespective if you consider them beligerent or not. I won’t repeat them here.

    If I try now to look at the situation from the position of say a decent catholic father, living in an interface area, how would I feel? I am not talking about the “untermensch scum” so eloquently referred to by “Bored”, but rather the person that I would want to be if I was on that side of the fence. The ones that actually make up the majority of people. I would probably feel a bit put upon, insulted, marginalised, resentful and a number of other emotional descriptions. It may be that the OO had no ill feeling toward me, but I still wouldn’t be able to banish those negative thoughts. There is too much history, too many images and too many “untermensch scum” to allow me to feel positive and accepting. That of course would not warrent me going out and throwing rocks and petrol bombs and potentially killing another decent human being, just to aleviate my own negative feelings.

    Now if I step back onto my side of the fence, having understood how I would feel on the other, I ask myself, is that the sort of impact that I want to have on people just so that I can celebrate my faith by marching in this area? Never mind those throwing rocks, who I have no respect for, what about the old, the sick, the young children and basically the decent people? Is my marching past their area and inducing negative feelings, what my expression of faith has become? Forget about all the excuses, the legal issues, the SF/IRA manipulation, the rock throwers the misrepresentation, the insults etc. Am I as an individual, happy in my conscience, that I am doing the right thing by me, by my neighbour and by Christ?

    The answer must of course be no. There is no other discussion to be had.

  • Bored

    Jeepers DK – with sane, principled, intelligent, compassionate talk like that you should move far, far away from the sick counties.

  • Carrington

    GavBelfast

    “Some people come across as being right pissed-off that they’re missing out on a ding-dong.”

    Yes, Duncan McCausland dodn’t look at all happy.

  • fair_deal

    Raff

    While I think you comaparison of the KKK and Loyal Orders is pathetic to say the least, on your claim that:

    ” The KKK would not be tolerated marching in many parts of the USA so why should nationalists tolerate a similar sort of organisation marching here?”

    This is actually incorrect. The KKK successfully fought a legal action against a ban on to hold a procession through a black neighbourhood as it was a breach of their constitutional rights.

  • George

    Fair_deal,
    I’ll ask you the same question I asked David without getting a reply.

    did the court rule that the KKK could also turn up 12 months later, and every 12 months thereafter, to exercise their now traditional right to march through these black areas?

  • Bored

    I wouldn’t hold your breath George……….

  • fair_deal

    George

    There was no limitation on the right in terms of frequency

  • fair_deal

    In terms of American legal rulings, there was a interesting ruling around the New York St Patrick’s Day parade as well.

    The Gay and Lesbian groups challenged the AOH’s refusal to allow them to participate in the parade. The court upheld the AOH’s decision on the grounds the AOH defined the parade as an Irish and Catholic event therefore under their right to free speech (which it defined as closely tied to freedom of assembly) (ie homosexuality is immoral in Catholic teaching) that the refusal of participation to gay groups was permissible.

  • George

    Fair_deal,
    how about some details about this 1977 National Socialist Party v. Skokie case?
    How many times have the American NSDAP marched in this area since 1977?
    Once? twice? annually? Is it now an inalienable Illinois Nazi tradition?

    It is true that US Government officials may not impose restrictions on protests or parades or other lawful assemblies if the reason is to censor a viewpoint.

    As the Orange Order have over 3,000 other marches, the movement of a couple of parade routes to avoid trouble would not fall under censorship.

    Also, most importantly, they may impose some limitations on assembly rights by enacting reasonable “time, place and manner” restrictions.

    If the Orange Order fail to respect the time, place and manner restriction, then they are acting in an unlawful and criminal manner.

  • George

    Fair_deal,
    would you also agree that the Orange Order should have to pay for the extra policing costs involved as is the case in the USA?

    After all, the Supreme Court also ruled that free-speech and assembly rights should not become more costly just because marchers may elicit a hostile reaction from onlookers.

    Will the Orange Order accept that one?

    Money talks and bullsh*t walks as they say…

  • fair_deal

    George

    1. A person made an inaccurate claim. I corrected it and I do not monitor the activites of Nazi groups in america so I do not know how many times they did or didn’t march it.
    2. I have already said the comparison of Nazi groups and the Loyal Orders is pathetic.
    3. The example was to demonstrate that a dislike of the people marching by residents does not remove freedom of assembly or expression.
    4. The routes of the Loyal Orders are not chosen specifcially for contention unlike the American case. For example, because of the patchwork quilt of communities in Belfast it is impossible to have access to the city centre without passing near, past or through a nationalist community (except at Sandy Row) and because of the long-standing nature of many routes it takes apart the claim “you just picked that to annoy people”. So the picking a contentious route = payment argument doesn’t apply. Also there would be difficulty under the ECHR introducing charges.
    5. The point at which the Orange parade joins the Springfield Road is used as a daily pedestrian access point by the local Protestant community to a primary school, a community facility and shops on that section of the Springfield Road. The section of the road also includes a number of employers and educational outreach centre that both communities are to access. So it is a section of road both communities access daily.

    “As the Orange Order have over 3,000 other marches, the movement of a couple of parade routes to avoid trouble would not fall under censorship”

    The number of parades were re-routing is sought continues to rise so don’t push this garbage change a few routes and it will all go away. If anyone does change a route attention is simply switched elsewhere.

  • cushy glenn

    “would you also agree that the Orange Order should have to pay for the extra policing costs involved as is the case in the USA?”

    your authority for that (incorrect) assertion George?

    Should the RC church then have to pay for policing the traffic at the Clonard Novena? Or U2 /the GAA for the Croke Park concerts this week?Or the protestors at Ardoyne for the riot squad last weekend? ( and don’t say that last one isn’t traditional – it’s been the traditional “blooding”- literally- for republican youth for decades )

    The American nazis deliberately decided to initiate a parade where they had never been, simply to coat trail- and if an orange Lodge applied to parade up the Falls road or in crossmaglen it would be equally reprehensible.Most of the orange processions are to church services on main thoroughfares, and are exactly as Tomas Maguire so honestly and accurately described them.

    “As the Orange Order have over 3,000 other marches, the movement of a couple of parade routes to avoid trouble would not fall under censorship.”

    er, so when the argument is made that there shouldn’t be a GAA club in Ballymena, because they’ve got loads of them elsewhere that’s all right too, I suppose. Or might the point of censorship not be that it’s preventing people doing what they want in any area.

    DK’s point is certainly valid, and demands that the Orange Order explains why it holds public parades, but they have tried to do that ( e.g. when they sent a letter to every home in Gravaghy a few years ago). The problem was that noone read the letter with an open mind. The constant request for dialogue is not in the context of permitting a parade, but the insistence that the starting point is that there won’t be one. So let’s talk about you giving us what we want rather than debating how to work out the problem .

    Bord and Guggler- of course you’re right that the working classes are terrible oiks. How much better if they knew their place and behaved with proper deference to such superior mortlas as youselves.

  • George

    Fair_deal,
    “The number of parades were re-routing is sought continues to rise so don’t push this garbage change a few routes and it will all go away”

    Not true and I think you know it. At least the police do:

    Total number of parades rerouted in 1994 = 29
    Total number of parades rerouted in 2004 = 22

    I think you’ll find that this is a decline and that less than 1% of all Parades are rerouted.
    You cannot use the censorship argument here.

    What are the Loyalists’ problems with 22 marches rerouted for safety concerns out of a huge total of 2,361? (29 resulted in disorder – that’s violence)

    “The example was to demonstrate that a dislike of the people marching by residents does not remove freedom of assembly or expression.”

    And I ask do you not agree the Orange Order should have to pay for the extra cost of marching where it is not wanted? That’s the way in the United States. With democracy comes responsibility.

    I’m beginning to think the US Supreme Court ruling on First Amendment rights is the way forward for Northern Ireland.

    You wouldn’t have had the Orange Order so happy to act as the conduit for rioters at Drumcree if they had to pay the 14 million pound police overtime bill each year.

    “For example, because of the patchwork quilt of communities in Belfast it is impossible to have access to the city centre without passing near…”

    Is there not an alternative route via Mackey’s? What’s the problem, it’s only 150 yards down the road from what I hear? They’ve even built a new road so the boys and girls can claim first divs.

    You bring up access but there is now going to be a long hot summer of protest by the OO so this access will be limited or denied to all for a lot of the summer.

    They’ll be keeping that 20 foot high metal wall, which is there for a reason, closed.

    Whiterock is such a deprived place and the Orange Order’s attitude – the local Grand Master compared himself to a battlefield general on television – of forcing this parade up the 100 yards of road is a thundering disgrace.

    Talk about dereliction of social and Christian duty. They should be breeding hope in these communities, not hate and talk of battles with your neighbour.

    Interesting how the Orange Order chooses such a deprived place for its next battle with the forces of law and order.

  • George

    Cushy Glenn and Fair_deal,
    I stand corrected, the Supreme Court overturned the higher fee imposed on appeal but I still think it’s a good idea.

  • fair_deal

    George

    I said “were re-routing is sought continues to grow” I did not say were a re-routing was granted.

    If memory serves the anti-orange groups (aka residents groups) in Ardoyne, Short Strand and possibly Springfield Road hadn’t been established ten years ago. Ten years ago there were no demands for re-routing in Kilrea and Rasharkin.

    What is the Loyal order problem?

    A community thinking it can dictate to another where when and how it expresses itself within the law perhaps. Stormont made the mistake of trying to dictate identity and that backfired maybe nationalists should take a lesson from that as well as Unionists already have.

    Charging – I have given the answer already. Specific circumstances were given for when charges could apply in that case. The reason you say charges could have been possible would not apply in the case of the Orange Order and the ECHR makes them highly unlikely here. The democratic responsibility for anyone participating in a procession is to do so peacefully and the same goes for a protestor.

    “the local Grand Master” – There is only one Grand Master in the Orange Order.

    “how the Orange Order chooses such a deprived place for its next battle with the forces of law and order”

    1. A parade is deemed contentious when objections to it are raised. The Orange Order did not choose it.
    2. This is a local district with most members drawn from that very same community as our many of the bands hired for the parade so it is not an external leadership riding roughshod over a deprived community.

    On routes

    Now you are mixing examples.

    The example of the city centre was to demonstrate that even if you tried on a number of parades you could not avoid nationalist communities, therefore the choice of routes that attracted sectarian protests was a result of physical location not a conspiracy by the Orange Order.

    The parade route joins the Springfield Road at the gate at Workman Avenue (please note it is a gateway not a wall hence it can be opened to allow access). At this gateway there is a pedestrian gate which is open every day for residents of the Ainsworth/Workman Avenue area to access the Springfield Road on foot.

    I have previously given the examples of what they access on the road. So the road cannot be exclusively claimed – if a protestant can use this gateway to access education for their children, employment, access to a chemist and further education and training each weekday why can they not do so as a member of the Orange order or band?

    “You cannot use the censorship argument here”

    Yes I can. You obviously know little about the powers and actions of the parades commission if you do not believe censorship has taken place. It can and has dictated who are the parade participants and it can and has placed restrictions or outright bans on tunes to be played.

  • fair_deal

    George

    Thank you for the correction.

  • PatMcLarnon

    Interesting to see the DUP once again leading the UVF and UDA around by the chav rings fitted through their noses.
    The political leaders of these people stated that never again would they be used as the cannon fodder of DUP political ambitions. Like the Bourbons they have learnt nothing and forgotten everything.
    Doomed to political impotence it truly is a pathetic sight to see them once again trailing on the shabby clothing of the street corner patriot.

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    You claimed on another thread that loyalist paramilitaries had left an interface incident because of the behaviour of the DUP. Now you claim the loyalist paramilitaries do as they are told by the DUP. What is it to be or is the story changed to suit your particular rant of the day?

    Would you care to comment on the sectarian assault on the Grosvenor Road at the weekend?

  • PatMcLarnon

    fair-deal,

    I am merely pointing out the shallow nature of those that head the loyalist paramilitaries and those who speak for them. It seems the person who has had the greastest influence on their lives is the last person to talk to them.
    If you are as close to the situation as you claim you will know that my exclusive of the loyalists at Twadell throwing a strop is indeed correct. The DUP called them scum to the PSNI and now they follow Mc Causland et all like the bovine herd many of us took them for.

    Again you should know that the DUP had been advocating breaking off all interface contacts since their inception. Correct me if i’m wrong but I think this is the fourth time the loyalists have broken off contact in the last few months. Usually it is over budget problems where they cannot produce receipts to meet funding requirements (ie they have sunk the money. Now it is over being attacked at Twadell. Funny republicans didn’t threaten to walk away after being attacked by loyalists during an Easter parade at Whitewell, but then again they are in for the long haul.

    I have checked a few news sites and can find no record of the Grosvenor incident you allege. I am aware of you people, yet again, hacking the shit out of each other in Carrick, but hey let’s not mention that, it embarrasses the DUP.

  • fair_deal

    If Pat, your views are an accurate representation of the republican view then republicans are making a serious misjudgement. This is not the DUP hood-winking or whipping up anyone. It is as close to a collective community decision as you can get in the area.

    “the DUP had been advocating breaking off all interface contacts since their inception”

    From my personal experience that is not correct. Your representation would have been the position a number of years ago but not the DUP attitude in the past few years on the ground.

    Anyway if a person you have dialogue with demonstrate they have no integrity, deny dialogue took place contact becomes somewhat pointless.

    “my exclusive of the loyalists at Twadell throwing a strop is indeed correct. The DUP called them scum to the PSNI”

    How exactly did the people on the other side of the road hear all this? You previously claimed none of the loyalists were answering their phones during that incident. Hard to find out if as you say they weren’t available that day.

    “news sources”

    I think both you and I will agree just because the media do not report it does not mean it didn’t happen. Young lad got smacked with a hammer after being invited back for a party.

    “you people”

    A revealing phraseology.

    “each other in Carrick, but hey let’s not mention that, it embarrasses the DUP.”

    This has been on all the news programmes I have seen today so it certainly seems to have been mentioned. The Alliance party and DUP did not seem embarassed when they firmly and clearly stated their codemnation of what went on last night. The PSNI also seem to have intervened promptly with house searches etc.

  • PatMcLarnon

    fair_deal,

    your non comment on the Whitewell parade attacks and the fact that unionists have now broken off interface contacts at least four times lately speaks volumes about unionist committment to the project.
    The steady drip of sectarian attacks on Catholic homes is spreading across most counties and but for a bit of luck a complete Catholic family would have been burnt to death at Throne. In those circumstances it is a bit rich to talk of integrity.
    But be careful who you lie down with, the DUP as is their want will drop the loyalists whn the need arises and nationalists wont be as generous in vouching for loyalists when they come crying for more funding.

    ‘I think both you and I will agree just because the media do not report it does not mean it didn’t happen. Young lad got smacked with a hammer after being invited back for a party.’

    You asked me to comment on an indicent that I had never heard of, the above comment leads me to believe you have re-entered fantasy land once again.

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    Unlike you, I have no difficulty in saying that those who attacked the Whitewell Easter parade or anyone’s home were wrong and should be condemned. All sectarian attacks are wrong, from whatever source are wrong.

    Unionists have not broken off contact four times. Since last October they have been involved in sustained dialogue with Ardoyne and Springfield residents group.

    Commitment to the process is not necessarily shown by a willingeness to be in dialogue but by fulfiling on the commitments you give in dialogue. Ardoyne Republicans made commitments to a peaceful protest, they broke it thus they have no integrity.

    “fantasy land”

    LMAO. If I meet a young man I have known for a number of years who is covered in bruising and explains when he was walking through Deerpark that he was attacked by a group of individulas calling him an Orange bastard, I describe that as a sectarian attack. If there is a mob in Celtic tops immediately after a defeat go and attack a Protestant area, I describe that as a sectarian attack. If I see grown men attack kids with hurley sticks at Mountainview, I describe that as a sectarian attack.

    To try and claim that such attacks are “drunkeness” and “umbrage” not sectarianism is fantasy land.

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    As you raised the Whitewell Road area, there was an interesting piece in the Sunday Tribune.

    hyperlink

  • fair_deal

    Mick

    If you have a spare moment could you possibly fix the above hyperlink. I never have any luck with hyperlinks.

  • Young Fogey
  • fair_deal

    YF

    Thanks appreciate that.

  • Alan2

    “The principles are now established that residents have a right to prevent marches where they are not welcome and that the way to get through such areas for marches is through dialogue and negotiation.”

    Which inevitably leads to a patchwork society and the advocation of apartheid type housing and a stoking of sectarian type violence when “them uns” move into an area.

    If however that is the way it is then it needs to be set out clearly in law. The parades issue needs to be part of any deal as year in year out disputes just are not acceptable.

    Either the parade has the right to walk down the Crumlin road (and NOT turn right and go into the Ardoyne but go straight ahead) or it does not. If it does have the right then protestors should be free to protest but should be kept far enough away as to not beable to throw missiles at people.