Ahern: why was Seán Kelly lifted?

Seán Kelly, the one surviving member of the two man team who planted the Shankill bomb which killed nine people in 1993, had his licence revoked at the weekend, the first member of the IRA to have done so since the Belfast Agreement. It came in the wake of rioting in Ardoyne. The Newsletter sees it as natural justice; Daily Ireland as an outrage. However Dublin government officials are somewhat puzzled and looking for clarification from Peter Hain’s office (subs needed).

…I do know that Seán Kelly is close to many senior SF people and was considered last year – subject to correction – someone who was very helpful in the [ July] 12th march in Ardoyne. I think that that is correct. I will try and get it as soon as I can. I have already asked officials [ the Anglo-Irish Secretariat in Belfast] to find out what happened. They have lifted nobody else. I don’t believe that they would have lifted [ him] without something. If there is [ something] it would be better to know. If there isn’t a reason it seems very odd that they would pick one person.

  • peteb
  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    Your DI link points to the newsletter story again.

  • martin

    closer to his home-Ahern should also ask why a 14 year old boy died in garda custody in 2002-family asking for an enquiry as is the family of the 20 year old who entered gardai station in seemingly good health and has been in a coma ever since ???

  • tomasmaguire

    THE UNTOUCHABLES

    When the PIRA conducted its own investigation into the McCartney slaughter guess who was appointed one of the investigating officers? Yip DCI Sean Kelly who I’m told clearly felt very confident and comfortable, dare I say UNTOUCHABLE, in this role as he had allegedly been “breaking the rules of his release” by being active practically from day one of his coming home almost five years ago.

    Indeed the Psuedo-policia of the Belfast Brigade have for years strutted around these districts dispensing their own self serving brand of justice playing toy soldiers in the community watches, hooding and interogating anyone “off script” from their agenda while abandoning our communities to the scruge of drug dealers and death drivers and paedophilic molestations.

    All of this power and legitimacy underwritten by the british powerbrokers who were ecstatic at having the provos as the flying column armed wing of their presence here, how fabulous must that have been for the N.I.O, the provo-police parachuted in to save the brits again from attack by nationalists in Ardoyne both last year and last friday night.

    Only this time the Belfast Brigade failed to contain the situation, local resistance through their justifiable anger prevailed, the provo-polica were found lacking & misjudged the mood. Next day DCI Kelly was returned to jail, and this arrest has shaken the Provo intelligentsia to the core, the brits have suddenly and inexplicably strayed ‘way’ off script.

    This explains an taoiseach’s remarks about Kelly being kosher or not? ‘Kosher’ meaning a member of the psuedo polica. ‘Not kosher’ being something else entirely a dissenter perhaps who has fooled everyone including Sinn Féin? As Bertie said, he’s going to find out!! I mean what the hell are the Brits doing arresting our own security people, surely there must be some mistake !!

    It also explains Gerry Kelly’s evident outrage at the arrest. DCI Kelly is one of his most trusted officers, who loyally stood shoulder to shoulder with him against the Ardoyne nationalist hoards. Both will feel totally betrayed that to have taken such a pro-brit stance against their own community they now have been publically and unceromoniously sacked by their political puppetmasters … and poor Gerry doesnt even have so much as a bandaged arm for another big claim with which to console himself.

    UNTOUCHABLE NO MORE

  • Liam

    It is a reasonable question to ask.
    But Martin, what has your comment got to do with the Sean Kelly situation….think this is drifting into whataboutery in only the 3rd post!!!

  • Macswiney

    Coming a week after Peter Hain’s credibility among Unionists was cast into doubt, it smacks more of opportunism than anything else.

  • Macswiney

    Coming a week after Peter Hain’s credibility among Unionists was cast into doubt, it smacks more of opportunism than anything else.

  • martin

    Liam,

    no whataboutery intended-just noticed of late that there have not been many threads relating to policing in the south at a time when there are more and more relevations of malpractice by garda-just wanted to increase public awareness of the above mentioned issues–your right though my comment has nothing realy to do with Sean Kelly just a criticism of Ahern.

  • martin

    Liam,

    no whataboutery intended-just noticed of late that there have not been many threads relating to policing in the south at a time when there are more and more revelations of malpractice by garda-just wanted to increase public awareness of the above mentioned issues–your right though my comment has nothing realy to do with Sean Kelly just a criticism of Ahern.

    sorry about the misspell in above comment

  • harpo

    ‘It also explains Gerry Kelly’s evident outrage at the arrest. DCI Kelly is one of his most trusted officers, who loyally stood shoulder to shoulder with him against the Ardoyne nationalist hoards.’

    How sad. Everyone knows that S. Kelly has been violating his license conditions, but to date the evil Brits have turned a blind eye. Now that they actually do what they are supposed to do – take action when prisoners violate the conditions of their license – certain parties get upset.

    The heart bleeds.

  • martin

    Whats all the fuss -he wont be in very long as it is only a political move to show to Unionists–hey i had the Shankill bomber arrested you know the one you hate almost the most.

    Id be more concerned for Mr Kellys human rights had he been placed in one of Mr Aherns nursing homes down South.

  • JD

    Tomas, your analysis and description – “Psuedo-policia of the Belfast Brigade” is unwarrented in my view. Although I have to say that I am not from Belfast so I am at a disadvantage.

    However it is clear that republicans risked life and limb (Gerry and Sean Kelly included) at the Ardoyne shops July 12th last year to avert what was undoubtedly another possible Bloody Sunday on the streets of North Belfast. They do not put themselves in these unenviable situations at the behest of British or Irish Governments but in the interests of their own communities and their own people. If six or seven young nationalists had have been killed by British troops on that day, and it is clear that they were on the verge of opening fire, where would we be today. What would be left of the peace process.

    Yes the people of Ardoyne are angry, the young people in particular, they have every right to be however at times such as these it takes leadership to use that anger in controlled and constuctive ways to effect change on the situation that you are angry about.

  • Baluba

    Well said JD (although the Bloody Sunday ref may be going a bit far).

    I find it funny that Kelly has been chucked back in the clink and no-one has had their license revoked re: the Lisa Dorrian murder when the dogs in the street (apparently, if Ervine’s to be believed) know who did that.

    Hain did pick the right man to supply the high dose of brownie points he wanted anyway.

  • Impressed

    Totally impressed at how Lisa Dorrian’s case found its way into this thread. Kudos for that remarkable whataboutery!

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    Baluba, for a start, if the dogs in the street that killed Lisa weren’t released under the GFA there’s f**k all Hain can do. But don’t let that stop you.

    Not that your response is stereotypical or anything, but check out the McCartney bit on the Portadown News

  • Intelligence Insider

    The only thing remarkable about Kelly’s license being revoked is that it took so long to do it! This terrorist, criminal murdurer should have been returned to Her Majesty’s Prison a long time ago. As the pan-natinalist movement wept with joy at seeing “Mad Dog” Adair being re-imprisoned ( and it was quite right that he was ) one does wonder why the same MOPE’s cry out at the same thing happening to someone else who has been clearly seen to be taking a prominent role in protests about decisions regarding parades. If they thought the decision regarding Adair was correct then they should also support the decision regarding Kelly. I hope that Kelly faces the same decision as Adair and is forced to serve the rest of his full sentence.

  • PatMcLarnon

    II,

    Johnnie Adair was arrested (twice) at the height of inter unionist feuds when a lot of people were being killed, wounded and dozens of people were being forcibly evicted from their homes. Indeed many other loyalists freed under the GFA were openly flaunting their muscle at that time, with apparent immunity.

    Even the mosr ardent apologist for unionist violence would have difficulty linking the IRA to any violence at all within the past few months. In fact the opposite is true. The IRA have embarked on a vconsultation process that could lead to the demise of their own organisation. Clearly a sensitive time in republican thinking.

    In that respect your attempted comparison is ignorant and dishonest.

    In the days when he attempted to portray himself as a person of beliefs Hain expressed Troops Out sentiments and pro United Ireland allegiances. When it was trumpteted by the DUPers that Hain would have to prove himself it was clear that he would embark on some idiotic strategy in order to curry favour. It is clear Sean Kelly is central to that strategy.
    The DUP quite obviously view Hain as weak and have treated him with contempt. His actions won’t convince the DUPers on anything and he has merely heaped nationalist and republican opprobrium on top of that already held by the DUPers.

    In the short term he has strengthened the hand of those republicans who believe that they have no part in trying to prevent interface violence as it could lead to them being arrested for purely political reasons. In that respect they are right to walk away.

  • Tomasmaguire

    jd

    Ahha, so its all for their own good?

    The young and not so young were being threatened, beaten and slapped in a public display of humiliation for doing something which one day is sound and another day isn’t, depending on Sinn Féin’s political fortunes.

    So resisting the state and loyalist attempts to degrade and triumph over them by coat trailing through their area isn’t for the community’s own good.? Does Sinn Féin now determine what is and isn’t good for us and enforce that determination with the violence and thuggery in perfect sync with that of the RUC/PSNI?

    The fact is, to a young person getting hit for resisting the state, whether its from a peeler, a brit or a loyalist or even worse a provo its still sore, still remembered and still resented and still resisted …

    and it might be worth remembering that the boy will grow into a man shaped by his experiences and perhaps much better placed to hit back against the peelers, the brits, the loyalists and yes even worse the provos …. and so it continues !!

  • Mick

    Tomas,

    That’s two cross posts on two threads. It’s not against the rules as such, but it is a discourtesy to those who are arguing with.

    Mick

  • Intelligence Insider

    Pat,

    I seem to remember the same Mr Adair you refer to using the same argument of “trying to prevent interface violence” as reason for his own place at disputed parades.

    I also feel that a certain family in the Short Strand area of Belfast may have some difficulty in concurring with your analysis that “Even the mosr ardent apologist for unionist violence would have difficulty linking the IRA to any violence at all within the past few months.” (sic).

    I think that a large number of the population of Northern Ireland would agree with me that those released under license who fail to abide by their terms of release/parole, by involving themselves in controversial events which others may view as an incitement to hatred purely by the attendance of the same, deserve to have parole revoked and should serve the remainder of their sentences. Nationalist/ Catholic or Unionist/Protestant should not matter.

  • tra g

    I can think of another Short Strand family who thought they had lost their father on saturday morning.

    The man was attacked outside his front door by 4 loyalists who had been cruising the area in a car looking for a victim.

    After failing to gain entry to a local shop they spotted the man in his garden, jumped out of the car and proceeded to beat him about the head with hatchets while calling him a fenian ba****d.

    The biggest problem people have, in vulnerable areas, is trying to stay alive over the next few weeks.

  • Intelligence Insider

    tra g,

    I have no problem whatsoever in condemning unequivocally the actions of those you speak of. I hope you would agree with me that those who would break into the home of another without their invite, who would attempt to, or actually, inflict injury on another, are the barbarians of our society and deserve to be brought before the Courts and sentenced to terms of imprisonment. Obviously this would include members of pira as well as loyalist terrorists and I hope you would join with me in hoping that BOTH are sent to jail rather than a sectarian and bigoted view of only wanting loyalists to be jailed.

  • tra g

    “I hope you would agree with me that those who would break into the home of another without their invite, who would attempt to, or actually, inflict injury on another, are the barbarians of our society and deserve to be brought before the Courts and sentenced to terms of imprisonment.”

    I agree with your comment

    The problem is that ALL victims tend not to be treated equally

  • Intelligence Insider

    “I agree with your comment”

    Can I take it by this that you would support the jailng of those who are captured either during or after the carrying out of so-called punishment attacks? Also those who have broke into the home of another person in the attemt to carry out a shooting, bank robbery, etc.?

  • Intelligence Insider

    Sorry, please read attempt for attemt. I needed a P!!!!

  • PatMcLarnon

    II,

    it was you in an attempt at whataboutery who brought the case of Adair onto the thread. I am simply pointing out that the circumstances around the arrests of Adair and Kelly are completely different. Adair was arrested in the middle of feuds in which people were being killed, wounded and hundreds put from their homes.
    Your pathetic attempt at referral to interface violence also holds no water. At the time of Adairs arrest hundreds of pipe bomb attacks were taking place against Catholic homes. Those bombings were the work of the UDA.
    There is not even an allegation that republicans are attacking protestant homes at this time. All evidence does suggest that republicans are indeed trying to defuse interface tensions. Yet again your assertion is dishonest

    If the S Strand family you refer to are the Mc Cartneys then even they are stating that the IRA as an organisation was not responsible for their brothers death.
    There has not been an attempt even by the IMC to connect the IRA to any deaths for the best part of two years. The one death attributed to them before that was Gareth O Connor and the justification for doing so is looking more bogus by the day.

    By all means criticise Kelly on a personal basis, however don’t dress it up as some sort of consistent argument. It is quite transparent, anyway tomasmaguire does the fantasy stuff with much more aplomb.

  • Goose

    This is what was agreed to with prisoner releases, and Sinn Fein can only make a muted or token protest if an ex-prisoner released under the conditions of the GFA gets caught out doing something that technically he shouldn’t be. Because technically the only thing that SF has to be complaining about is the leeway that has been granted in terms of the blind-eye turned towards the PIRA since the ceasefires and GFA while everyone waits for Gerry to say he’s done milking the cow.

    Hypothetically speaking, using the example provided, if any of the accused murderers of Robert McCartney, alleged members of the IRA at the time of the murder but not acting under the sanctioned orders of the Army Council (although some perhaps allegedly acting under the perceived order of an immediate superior), if any of these accused are ex-prisoners who were released under the GFA, then would a trial even be needed? They would be lifted for violating their licence and a hearing would be held in the prison. Regardless of whether the murder was an IRA operation or not, the act of murder violates the terms of their release.

    It is a good example and consistent with the argument presented. The only question in regards to some of the accused is why they too have not yet had their licence revoked, not whether the IRA told them to do it or not.

  • JD

    Tomas,

    Did someone hit you or someone you are related to a slap? You seem very annoyed about something that you witnessed in Ardoyne recently.

    My general point was republicans in Ardoyne and other flashpoint areas have been at the forefront of ‘resisting the state and loyalist attempts to degrade and triumph over them by coat trailing through their area’, they also have a responsibility to try and calm tensions at the interfaces and channel justifiable anger into constructive and effective methods of upholding the rights of their communities.

  • fair_deal

    “All evidence does suggest that republicans are indeed trying to defuse interface tensions.”

    LMAO. Friday night at Ardoyne

    During the sectarian attacks by republicans at Ardoyne, two republicans (who had participated in the cross-community dialogue about parades in the area and were there ostensibly to manage the protest as they had promised to do in the dialogue) were asked what the hell was going on. Their response both shrugged their shoulders and said nothing to do with us.

  • fair_deal

    On the Kelly stuff. the argument of he did X on this date so he couldn’t have done anything wrong before or afterwards just doesn’t wash.

    Also this is an internal matter so bertie can butt out. Mr Kelly already has political representatives who are speaking out on his behalf.

  • Martin Dub

    “Also this is an internal matter so bertie can butt out. Mr Kelly already has political representatives who are speaking out on his behalf.”

    Your gonna be well pissed off when some sort of Joint Authority comes in in the near future!

  • fair_deal

    Martin Dub

    LMAO Slugger is very entertaining today.

    I have been told repeatedly by irish nationalists that they have accepted the principle of consent thus no joint authority (or was I being lied to)

  • JD

    The principle of consent was indeed contained and agreed to in the Good Friday Agreement. However the leaders of unionism are now adamant that this agreement is dead and are refusing to share power with the leaders of nationalism. Therefore joint authority or further reintegration towards unity are back on the table.

  • fair_deal

    JD

    A political declaration and the legal reality are two different things (never mind that the Belfast Agreement was not the only one were consent was conceded – the only difference being SF sort of signed up to it in 1998).

    The death of the agreement does not automatically mean anything is inevitable. For example the political support for unity has declined at the last two elections so the impetus in one direction does not necessarily exist.

    However, if what you say is true I look forward to the closure of the corss-border bodies and the British-Irish secretariat in Armagh that were created under the agreement.

  • JD

    With joint authority or other closer moves towards reunification there would be no need for cross border bodies or British/Irish secretariats.

  • fair_deal

    Yet you provide no reasoning for such a scenario?

  • DerryTerry

    FD,
    Plan A, institutions up and running and powersharing all round.
    Plan B, greater governmental co-operation moving towards joint authority.
    Personnally, if Unionists are determined to bury PLan A, i can live quite happily with Plan B.

  • fair_deal

    Derry Terry

    Predictions are well and good. However, no argument is offered why Joint authority is the automatic Plan B.

    If the Provos don’t deliver on deomocracy why should they receive a political rewards?
    If the vote for irish unity is declining is there political impetus for it?
    Is it certain the RoI government want it? Right now they have the best of both world’s have an input but also have a blamehound?
    Will imposition not run a serious risk of disintegration of the security situation?

  • Keith M

    JD “The principle of consent was indeed contained and agreed to in the Good Friday Agreement. However the leaders of unionism are now adamant that this agreement is dead”

    You seem to have missed a few major points. The Principle of Consent is now enshrined in the Irish Constitution. To remove it would require another referendum (which isn’t going to happen. The Agreement is dead, but this consequence of it remains intact.

    ” and are refusing to share power with the leaders of nationalism. Therefore joint authority or further reintegration towards unity are back on the table.”. They are refusing to share power with a group of active terrorists and criminals, the same way that most political parties anywhere in the World (including this country) would do.

    “Therefore joint authority or further reintegration towards unity are back on the table.”. No they’re not, no more than re-partition or moving the Catholic population to the Republic are. You should try to see the difference between what you want to happen and what is actually happening. The only options that are on the table at the moment are an executive with and without SF/IRA.

  • JD

    “If the Provos don’t deliver on deomocracy why should they receive a political rewards?”

    Both FD and Keith M you need to be careful that you do not start believing your own propoganda. If the IRA delivers a statement and action that is acceptable to the two governments, the vast majority of the electorate and international opinion then it is the DUP who are reneging on democracy. In that scenario all options are on the table. If it proves impossible to establish a local administration due to DUP intransigence, then all other aspects of the agreement will proceed. Both Governments have said publically that Direct Rule is not a long term option, therefore both Sinn Fein and the new found republicans in the SDLP will be pushing for huge advancements in the north south bodies or de-facto joint authority. The DUP will only be left with their veto over Stormont and many unionists may begin revise their positions in that light.

    In addition why would the Irish Government be adverse to joint authority? It would fullfill their pretence to republicanism and give a real say in the north without the bills.

  • tomasmaguire

    JD

    Thanks for the concern re slap but no I wasn’t slapped or hit. For me it doesn’t have to be me or mine that’s slapped or hit for me to know its wrong and damaging and humiliating and is clearly a case of the bully taunting the brave … its just plain wrong JD no matter what guise its presented in. It is unjustifiable directed abuse … the very same kind of abuse that coming from the brits and RUC of old had dozens of young people trying to join the republican movement in the first place.

    Ever read the piece “therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls as it tolls for you” based on the quote from John Donne (1627)
    Its right to speak out against injustice no matter where it comes from but especially if it comes from those who purport to act on our behalf.

    Tomas

  • JD

    “The Principle of Consent is now enshrined in the Irish Constitution. To remove it would require another referendum (which isn’t going to happen. The Agreement is dead, but this consequence of it remains intact.”

    The principle of consent only comes into play when you are talking about the re-unification of Ireland, it does not hold back any interim arrangements such as joint authority.

  • fair_deal

    JD

    Again you are predicting what will happen but offering little in terms of rationale for it, simply a set of assumptions.

    “If the IRA delivers a statement and action that is acceptable to the two governments, the vast majority of the electorate and international opinion then it is the DUP who are reneging on democracy.”

    1. Emphasis on ‘if’, ‘statement’, ‘acceptable’ and ‘action’.
    2. “the vast majority of the electorate” – how will the endorsement of the electorate of any IRA initiative be assessed?
    3. Conor Murphy has already said the statement will be for a southern audience so it may not have London jumping for joy. Hain bought into the testing period just yesterday.

    “If it proves impossible to establish a local administration due to DUP intransigence then all other aspects of the agreement will proceed”

    1. The DUP did a reasonable job of dodging most of the blame in December and their behaviour to date in negotiations has been competent.
    2. It was claimed that all parts of the Agreement are interlocked one bit falls it all falls.
    3. There is still the principle of consent to get round?

    “give a real say in the north without the bills.”

    1. Where is it written that joint authority won’t involve any bills?
    2. Again what about the potential deterioration of the security situation in such circumstances? It might make the Celtic Tiger a bit skittish?

    “Direct Rule is not a long term option”

    1. That was said in 1972 and we had almost thrity years of uninterrupted direct rule.
    2. If direct rule isn’t a long-term option what makes joint authority the Plan B?

    “both Sinn Fein and the new found republicans in the SDLP will be pushing for huge advancements in the north south bodies or de-facto joint authority”

    1. Demanding doesn’t mean you get. As the SDLP points out the great All-Ireland Sinn Fein did not get one additional cross-border body in the December 2004 deal.
    2. And you think Unionists will sit their twiddling thumbs not seeking something either?

    Overall there is one key point missing in this analysis and that of many nationalists lately.

    It fails to realise that after the November 2003 Assembly election the dynamics of the peace process changed.

    Prior to the elections it was about keeping the Provos on board and just enough unionists (they failed in that part). With the DUP victory (and consolidation) and offer to deal, it has become about getting both the Provos and effectively ‘all’ of Unionism on board. Hence the peace process has not been going so smoothly for the RM since then.

  • Pronsias

    Tomas
    Why are they being slapped ?

    So are you saying they should be better dealt with by the RUC/BA , then we have touts , then you/we still complain.

  • JD

    “It fails to realise that after the November 2003 Assembly election the dynamics of the peace process changed.”

    The dynamics of the political (rather than the peace) process have changed and have been changing for quite a while. The original strategy of the British Government in relation to Ireland since 1996 was to develop a settlement where the SDLP and the UUP would dominate with republicans and the DUP tacked on as irrelevant bit players. Republicans have worked since that time to ensure on the nationalist side this strategy would fail, with a fair degree of success. Unlike the DUPs recent victory it has been steady and methodical with clear strategic objectives. The Unionist electorate have indeed passed the mantle of unionist leadership to the DUP however I have no doubt without delivery this may change. With leadership comes hard decisions and compromise, saying no ad nauseum is not a viable option. Are the DUP up for this or will they descend into internal wrangling like the UUP.

  • fair_deal

    JD

    Thank you for not addressing a number of my questions.

    “Are the DUP up for this or will they descend into internal wrangling like the UUP.”

    The DUP and UUP are two very different political animals.

  • tomasmaguire

    Tomas
    Why are they being slapped ?

    Not being a slapper Pronsais I just don’t know, I admit its leaves me bewildered. Can I suggest you try below for more information about slapping, touts et al.

    Sinn Féin
    53 Falls Road
    Belfast, BT12 4PD
    Ireland

    Tel: 02890 223000
    Fax: 02890 223001
    Email: sfadmin@eircom.net

  • PatMcLarnon

    ‘LMAO. Friday night at Ardoyne

    During the sectarian attacks by republicans at Ardoyne, two republicans (who had participated in the cross-community dialogue about parades in the area and were there ostensibly to manage the protest as they had promised to do in the dialogue) were asked what the hell was going on. Their response both shrugged their shoulders and said nothing to do with us.’

    Last Friday night, according to all TV footage it clearly showed republicans trying to hold young people back from becoming engaged in violence. Youe allegation that republicans were involved in the violence is a lie.
    Your allegation that people involved in the cross community dialogue:

    1. said that they were their to manage the protest.

    2. Shrugged their shoulders and said nothing to do with us.

    Are quite clearly another few lies. Who were these two people? To whom did they say the comments ascribed to them?
    Quite clearly both sides were segregated by the PSNI. How then did these conversations take place?

    If you are going to come on line to make allegations either back them up or else do it in rant mode like tomasmaguire.

  • Occasional Commentator

    According to Radio 4, Michael Stone is back in custody. He was arrested in London and is now in prison in Antrim.

  • Occasional Commentator

    Here’s more info on Michael Stone’s arrest. I had rushed to judgement and assumed he was taken in for breaching the terms of his license. But it appears not to be the case, and therefore it’s off-topic.

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    It was a REPUBLICAN protest. Protestors engaged in violence hence republican violence.

    The ‘Gerry Kelly and mates’ were their defence is rather thin ‘asking for calm’ especially as this is the second protest in a year that republican leaders could not control their own supporters.

    Also the republicans outside the shops largely engaged in throwing missiles. There were some attempts by a dozen prominent republicans to stop them – these brief attempts failed and the PSNI had to step in.

    The most serious physical assaults took place on the Mountainview side (where republicans were conveniently absent) e.g. fred cobain being whacked by a hurley stick.

    The TV pictures were indeed interesting. However, unlike you I do not need to rely on TV pictures as I was there.

    “Quite clearly both sides were segregated by the PSNI. How then did these conversations take place?”

    The police allowed one representative from the Loyalist side the opportunity to talk to the two republican representatives in the vain attempt to calm the situation down. The Unionist community and PSNI were trying to calm the situation while republicans lost control then gave up.

    I will challenge the two individuals directly, they are both well known community activists when I see them then I will name them to you. Their behaviour and ‘nothing to do with us’ is not surprising since republicans have tried to put it about that it was anti-social elements responsible for the trouble.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I am not in favour of joint authority, but it’s misguided to believe that there is anything preventing the governments from imposing it. The law and the constitution were essentially the same in 1985 as they are now, there is nothing preventing an Anglo Irish Agreement Mark 2.

  • Comrade Stalin

    fair_deal, I’m not trying to get them off the hook but it is more than conceivable that anti-social elements were behind the trouble and that the republicans could not move to stop it. There is plenty of anti-social activity that the republicans seem to be almost powerless to stop in North and West Belfast, going by the ongoing punishment attacks and the well-known existence of joyriding.

    It would help a lot if the anti-social types could be arrested.

  • bill

    “ongoing punishment attacks”

    When? Where?

  • martin

    Bill,

    he must mean the 20 year old Dubliner who was arrested by Gardai brought to Store st barracks in seemingly perfect health and has been in a coma ever since.

  • bill

    “ongoing punishment attacks”

    When? Where?

  • fair_deal

    Comrade stalin

    1. Anti-social behaviour is the preserve of no community. The Unionist community managed to control its anti-social elements at the parade that evening.
    2. If Ardoyne republicans can’t control them then why were they foolish enough to give a commitment they would? Why were they not up front about their problems during the dialogue?
    3. Why blame the police, the parades commission and the Orange Order in public statements but not the anti-social elements? The anti-social elements excuse was from ‘sources’ rather than an up front comment. Would it not have been better to have been up front said it was unacceptable behaviour by anti-social elements?
    4. Integrity is the most difficult thing to develop and maintain in a negotiation process. If Ardoyne republicans give commitments for the next parade who is going to believe them?
    5. Getting Prods to enter dialogue about issues like parades has not been easy but that is what has been acheieved through the North and West Parades Forum. Failure to deliver by Ardoyne republicans hurts the credibility of those who promoted dialogue in the Unionist community. It feeds the nay-sayers.

    “It would help a lot if the anti-social types could be arrested.”

    1. From what I saw that night and from the TV footage, the people involved outside the shops were dominated by teenagers. However, the most serious assaults took place on the Mountainview side and grown men were involved.
    2. Try and get issue 77 of the Shankill Mirror. It concerns the sectarian assault by republicans on Twadell after the Celtic defeat a few weeks back. On page 3 there is an interesting series of photographs showing the PSNI catching one of the rioters then Ardoyne republicans intervening and securing his release. Your sentiments are fine but ardoyne republicans do not seem to share in them.

    Pat McLarnon

    I just remembered last time you tried to excuse the sectarian violence by republicans at Ardoyne by blaming it on alcohol. The excuse this time is?

  • PatMcLarnon

    fair-deal,

    I have challenged your account of the two Ardoyne activists as a lie and your lame attempt at a side step merely shows that you are digging away at that grat big hole.

    I did point out that as far as I was concerned the trouble at Twadell was started by a small group of drunken Celtic supporters. The trouble then escalated when dozens of loyalists arrived armed with hundreds of golf balls balls and other debris and then moved the trouble up a notch. Attempts to take the wind out of that situation failed for two reasons;

    1. Loyalist community reps refused to answer their mobile phones and thus the trouble was allowed to increase.

    2. When eventually they did arrive the DUP complained rather loudly about the PSNI liasing with loyalist paramilitaries who did eventually try and curtail the rioters. On hearing the DUP these people then walked away, yet again, challenging the DUP to bring things under control. Once again the schism within unionism is creating problems in the wider community.

    As for the reasons for the trouble last Friday it is quite clear that some young people took umbrage at having their homes sealed of by a huge force of PSNI members in order to facilitate a coat trailing exercise. This was exacerbated by the fact that large numbers of UDA and UVF members were acting as O.O. stewards. The behaviour of stewards in attacking residents who live on the Crumlin Rd, their writing down of certain addresses and their mock firing of rifles towards certain residents makes you wonder about the type of people the O.O. are recruiting as stewards.

  • Waitnsee

    That aside, wasn’t the television footage of those three enormously fat women hilarious?

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    I will talk to R and J directly then I will name them to you. I am on here regularly so I am sure you will be in a position to follow it up.

    Your self-denial and hypocrisy I so enjoy.

    “Small group”
    It was a group of over 100, hardly small.

    “not answer mobile phone”
    We start a riot but its there fault for not answering the phone.

    “2. When eventually they did arrive the DUP complained rather loudly about the PSNI liasing with loyalist paramilitaries who did eventually try and curtail the rioters. On hearing the DUP these people then walked away, yet again, challenging the DUP to bring things under control. Once again the schism within unionism is creating problems in the wider community”

    I so enjoy it when republicans who act dumb when their community does something then claim to have a detailed insight to what happens in the Unionist community.
    How could republicans see that? The police were in the way.
    How could they have been told that? You said loyalists weren’t answering their phones.

    Also you have made previous claims of how the DUP are hand in hand with paramilitaries yet now you claim they are at loggerheads. Please make up your mind.

    All sections of the unionist community, political parties, Loyal Orders, religious ministers and community groups are represented on the North and West Parades Forum. So there is one voice on this issue.

    “Umbrage”

    So this time they were sober but took umbrage. Hmmm. If I am ever up on charges for hitting teenage children with a hurley stick because they are from a different community I will instruct my solicitors to enter a plea of umbrage. Anyone rate my chances of gettng off?

    The parade monitors and stewards

    LMAO. Republicans asked for the Unionist community to provide stewards then attacks them for the stewards they use. If your claims are true your hypocrisy is amusing, republican stewards good/loyalist stewards bad. I wonder how Unionists get the impression there is no pleasing republicans.

    So when someone comes out of a house and engages in an attack a parades monitor is not to make a note of this? Its called evidence gathering to be forwaded to the PSNI and to the Parades Commission. Republicans have used monitors regularly at parades. Is it only republicans are allowed to do this?

    The people invovled on the Mountainview side were grown men not young lads.

    There is no independent evidence of your claims about stewards attacking anyone. While independent evidence of republicans engaging in sectarian attacks is extensive e.g. TV footage and the PSNI made a clear statement about were responsibility lay.