US Liberal overtaking Conservative blogs?

I’d venture a guess this is one you won’t get to read on the determinedly conservative ATW. The story is from the Liberal MyDD.com, but the thinking seems sound. Chris Bowers has been looking at the relative performances of US Liberal and Conservative political blogggers. From September 2004, when he saw greater focus as a key to the success of conservative bloggers, he now thinks they may be too individualised in their focus to match the growth of the Liberal community blogs that are crowding into the top of the charts.

He believes that the innate conservatism of the blogosphere is creating insurrmountable barriers to new conservative voices trying to break into the US top flight:

In short, the anti-community nature of right-wing blogs has resulted in a stagnant aristocracy within the conservative blogosphere that prevents the emergence of new voices and, as a result, new reasons for people to visit conservative blogs.

  • peteb

    Hmm.. I’m not so convinced by his thinking, Mick.. it reads more like a conclusion – his “the anti-community nature of right-wing blogs has resulted in a stagnant aristocracy” – in search of a theory.

  • Henry94

    peteb

    I’m inclined to agree. It looks a lot like wishful thinking. Where are the voices on the left to match the influence and following of Styen, Buchannan, Drudge and Coulter. I can’t think of a single one.

    Claiming community based blogging as somehow superior is like claiming the letters page in a newspaper has more clout than the columnists. I doubt it.

    The left are losing the battle of ideas. The blogsphere is not responsible for that but it does reflect it.

  • Colman

    Henry, did you mean to ask where were the left-wing bigots spewing hate? I guess hate just isn’t much of a lefty value. And if you can’t think of any influential voices on the left (Steyn? Are you joking?), maybe it’s because you’re not looking.

  • 6countyprod

    Most ridiculous statement of the day: I guess hate just isn’t much of a lefty value.

    Colman, why don’t you check out powerlineblog.com for a few examples of ‘lefty’ hate in North America. Here’s a couple to whet your appetite.

    powerlineblog.com/archives/010584.php#010584

    (010513.php#01051, 010522.php#010522, 010077.php#010077, 009978.php#009978, 009643.php#009643, 008778.php#008778, 008283.php#008283)

  • Alan McDonald

    6 county,

    Checked out power line, seems to be a right-wing blog. Examples seem to be indirect, with right wingers saying taht left wingers said bad things.

    Any examples of left wing blogs spewing hate directly? I’m not saying there aren’t any, just wondered if you could point me at some.

  • Henry94

    Colman

    maybe it’s because you’re not looking.

    But I am. I really would like to read some good left wing blogs and if you would care to nominate one I’d be delighted with you.

  • 6countyprod

    Alan,

    I was thinking of left wing (hate) stuff in general, but dailykos.com is a good left wing site that leads you to a bunch of loony lefties. Mind you, many of the right wing guys are pretty loony as well!

  • Alan McDonald

    Henry,

    Here’s some off the bat. (I’m not going to try to do the HTML thing, sorry.)

    http://www.dailykos.com/
    http://www.counterpunch.org/
    http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml

  • Henry94

    Thanks Alan. I’ve bookmarked all three and I’ll give them a chance. The article in counterpunch What If Jackson had been on Trial in Massachusetts? is interesting.

  • David Vance

    I agree with Henry. The sublime Coulter, the insightful Steyn have no leftist equivalent. Daily Kos is a laugh – infantilism from the people who gave you Howard Dean. The left have no big ideas and it sure as hell tells on the blogosphere. Andrew Sullivan would be fav. “leftist”.

  • peteb

    Looniness is not ideologically biased.

  • Occasional Commentator

    What do left and right mean anyway? Brian Walden isn’t impressed by the terms.

  • g in philly

    First post, found this through link from dailykos.
    Wee Northern Ireland has its own blog, and a decent one at that. Very impressed.

    Anyway, I happen to know Chris Bowers, a good lad (we share the same politics). In Northern Ireland terms he would remind me of Peter Weir on crack.

    Maybe some of you know this if you ever spent some time over here but the media over here has to be seen to be believed.

    They’re owned by huge multinational corporations who always have something pending in front of govt, usually the FCC, so they like to cuddle up and basically report press releases from the White House. So its hard to actually get your message out if it doesn’t conform to the govt line.

    NBC, for example is owned by GE, who is the third or fourth larges defence contractor for the govt. You think they are going to say anything against Bush?
    Rant over.

    As regards the community type blog, I think Chris is right. Take Kos for instance. As a member you can post your own diary on anything you want, Kos will post his stuff, but the vast majority of action goes on in the member diaries. Members all over the country will pick up on stories that the owner of the site could never have found.

    The agenda isn’t formulated by one person, the members do that, although the owner can delete diaries, and in the end certain posters pick up their own crowd.
    Anyway, congratulations on the site Mick and hope to have a few political tongue lashings in the future.

  • g in philly

    first post, found this through link from dailykos.
    Wee Northern Ireland has its own blog, and a decent one at that. Very impressed.
    Anyway, I happen to know Chris Bowers, a good lad (we share the same politics). In Northern Ireland terms he would remind me of Peter Weir on crack.
    Maybe some of you know this if you ever spent some time over here but the media over here has to be seen to be believed.
    They’re owned by huge multinational corporations who always have something pending in front of govt, usually the FCC, so they like to cuddle up and basically report press releases from the White House. So its hard to actually get your message out if it doesn’t conform to the govt line.
    NBC, for example is owned by GE, who is the third or fourth larges defence contractor for the govt. You think they are going to say anything against Bush?
    Rant over.
    As regards the community type blog, I think Chris is right. Take Kos for instance. As a member you can post your own diary on anything you want, Kos will post his stuff, but the vast majority of action goes on in the member diaries. Members all over the country will pick up on stories that the owner of the site could never have found. The agenda isn’t formulated by one person, the members do that, although the owner can delete diaries, and in the end certain posters pick up their own crowd.. Anyway, congratulations on the site Mick and hope to have a few political tongue lashings in the future.

  • g in philly

    first post, found this through link from dailykos.
    Wee Northern Ireland has its own blog, and a decent one at that. Very impressed.
    Anyway, I happen to know Chris Bowers, a good lad (we share the same politics). In Northern Ireland terms he would remind me of Peter Weir on crack.
    Maybe some of you know this if you ever spent some time over here but the media over here has to be seen to be believed.
    They’re owned by huge multinational corporations who always have something pending in front of govt, usually the FCC, so they like to cuddle up and basically report press releases from the White House. So its hard to actually get your message out if it doesn’t conform to the govt line.
    NBC, for example is owned by GE, who is the third or fourth larges defence contractor for the govt. You think they are going to say anything against Bush?
    Rant over.
    As regards the community type blog, I think Chris is right. Take Kos for instance. As a member you can post your own diary on anything you want, Kos will post his stuff, but the vast majority of action goes on in the member diaries. Members all over the country will pick up on stories that the owner of the site could never have found. The agenda isn’t formulated by one person, the members do that, although the owner can delete diaries, and in the end certain posters pick up their own crowd.. Anyway, congratulations on the site Mick and hope to have a few political tongue lashings in the future.

  • g in philly

    sorry about that, browser hiccup.

  • Henry94

    The establishment are rattled anyway.

    THE Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has criticised the new web-based media for “paranoid fantasy, self-indulgent nonsense and dangerous bigotry”. He described the atmosphere on the world wide web as a free-for-all that was “close to that of unpoliced conversation”.

  • Paul

    “He described the atmosphere on the world wide web as a free-for-all that was “close to that of unpoliced conversation”

    I’m rather fond of this concept of “unpoliced conversation”.

    Rather than be offended by the flood of “paranoid fantasy, self-indulgent nonsense and dangerous bigotry”, I suppose the logical answer would be not to switch on your computer?

  • kate

    Henry94 go read Obsidean Wings which has both liberal and conservative bloggers but if you ask me, the liberals (hilzoy, edward and the amazing katherine) wipe the floor with the conservatives (and I still miss moe). I can’t get through a day without Crooked Timber who are pretty international (so aren’t American liberals) and intellectual but have a defnite left bent.

  • 6countyprod

    Henry94

    foxnews.com has a couple of guys, Hannity and Colmes, who regularly spar on the issues. One is conservative, the other liberal. It’s a fairly matched contest between the two of them, and a lot of fun. They are at the bottom of the fox homepage, and they also give their favourite right/left links.

  • Henry94

    Paul

    Rather than be offended by the flood of “paranoid fantasy, self-indulgent nonsense and dangerous bigotry”, I suppose the logical answer would be not to switch on your computer?

    Or look out the window in July 😉

  • foreign correspondent

    I would recommend http://www.smirkingchimp.com as having some interesting articles and insightful comments. no prizes for guessing who the smirking chimp is.

  • Felix Quigley

    Mick

    You talk of The Tangled Web by David Vance as being “conservative”. One thing David does however is tell the truth about the fascism of the “Palestinian” movement and he does give the issue an airing, which is something you and perhaps more the people around you who lead these discussions ever do on Slugger Otoole.

    In this sense David is not “conservative” at all and you Mick to my mind anyway are extremely conservative.

    There is widespread support (in the neo-Left and indeed in the main Media) and mention for the Islamist, correct to call them Islamo-fascist, Hamas movement which is planning to move in and take over Gaza.

    Your own “Leftie” here Henry has stated that he is in support of such a “Palestinian” state even though it is clear that the aim of this state is to finish with Israel completely. Is it not Henry? How that can be done without another massacre of the Jews I cannot see.

    This is now (to create a Palestinian and in my view anti-Semitic Jew hating state) also the policy of Bush and also of the EU.

    Sharon, the biggest traitor the Jews have ever seen, is now being supported by the Irish neo-Left, your friends on the Blanket by their silence are supporting Sharon in handing the Gaza and Northern Shamron over to Hamas.

    It is not long ago these Irish neo-Lefts were calling that Sharon be not only hung, but hung drawn and quartered as well. Now they support him in creating a Jew free Gaza and future Palestine state.

    You need to redefine your terms. The Left has betrayed its principles and is now supporting the Islamofascists and above all the Jew-hating anti-Israel brigade. How is that progressive?

  • Henry94

    Felix

    i Your own “Leftie” here Henry

    Leftie? Moi?

    Sharon, the biggest traitor the Jews have ever seen

    OK by those standards I probably am a leftie.

  • 6countyprod

    foreign correspondent’s recommendation is a good example of hateful lefties who are devoid of viable alternatives: always attacking the man.

    The more publicity these folks get, the less likely the Democrats will regain power in the US. Unadultarated hate is not a good vote winner, as shown by last November’s election result. GW got more votes than any other American president, ever.

  • g in philly

    Faux news is nothing but republican propaganda. On their talk shows they’ll have three conservatives to one liberal, and the weakest liberal they can find.
    Hannity is just another one of Bush’s messenger boys.

  • foreign correspondent

    There are some over-the-top comments but the majority of the articles in smirkingchimp are intelligent. That millions of Americans voted for Bush I find really really scarey-that millions more can´t stand him, his cronies or their vile militarism is a relief.

  • Mick

    Without gainsaying your own definitions Felix, I used the terms Conservative and Liberal in the overall US sense. Outside that context they certainly break down rapidly. As, increasingly post 9/11, do the references to left and right.

  • felix quigley

    Mick

    You can see how Henry neatly did a sidestep which has left me quite dizzy and I can see that you did too. The essence of what I was saying was not about David and Tangled Web and certainly not a linguistic exercise. It was about why he covers Israel, a lot, and you do not!

    It was really about WHY your site does seem to me to be avoiding the issues surrounding Israel, the withdreawal from Gaza and Northern Shamron, the plans of the whole world, especially America and the EU, of which Ireland is a part, to force a Palestinian State onto Israel.

    There is a Media blackout over what is happening. Did you know that in Gaza jails are being filled with 14 year old Jewish girls, up to 40 at one judicial sitting, who are opposed to this uprooting of Jews from Gaza? That not an issue for republicans, eh?

    You do not have to find a NI connection to cover this issue because extrapolate from what I say above and it is an issue Britain and Ireland are into up to their eyeballs. And thankfully you are covering international issues such as China.

    There is another reason. Ireland is full of Israel haters. One of these is the Belfast based Blanket website and I can oh so easily prove their hatred for Israel.

    Sooo … The creation of this Palestinian state raises big historical questions, especially the central one of why the Israeli state was set up in the first place. I would debate that following from that history of such utter persection the Israeli state must be ruled by Jews and be a safeguard against a future Holocaust. It must always be Jewish. Jews MUST have the power and never let it go.

    The republican movement in Ireland is almost completely anti-Israel, Indeed I could have omitted the almost. (Which always amazes me considering the anti-Semitism of Britain, especially British Labour (Bevin?) during the Mandate.

    Yet the creators of this Palestinian state have always vowed their aim is to destroy Israel completely. Again I can give you sourced statements of Palestinian Arabs from here to the sky to prove this.

    One thing I have noticed on what I call now the neo-Left in Ireland is
    1. They for some reason have fallen silent on Sharon’s forced disengagement from Gaza.
    2. They seem to be awfully confused about Islamo-fascism in relation to Hamas
    3. On the same topic they seem to be equally confused about islamo-fascism in Iraq even as it continues to murder thousands of poor Iraqis

    But above all it is their position on Israel. Are they aware of the context of the 1948-9 War which followed on the UN Resolution of 1947 and the setting up of Israel in 1948, that Israel was attacked by SIX Arab armies on 15 May 1948, one day after. And that Israel was very nearly obliterated by those attacks from all corners.

    Why should all this be an issue for your site? Well because we were all born in the last century and the Holocaust and the resulting Israel was an event in our lives. It was the biggest event.

    As you know I have a site called http://www.isill.blogspot.com and I am covering always from an Irish perspective (because I am Irish and proud to be so) these issues. I have another site called http://www.IrelandSupportsIsrael.com but I had to pay dearly to have it set up and I never could handle the Yahoo software. But on that latter site I did manage to place a lot of history and a lot of theory and there they lie. Your readers are welcome to have a look at what I came up with.

    I think that my ideas on these issues should be given a fair wind. I think they are a lot more important than whether that Monica McWilliams organises that tired old Stalinist heap of junk, a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights, or indeed anything she might come up with considering the reputation of that knitting society called the Womens Coalition. I don´t think we are too far apart on that though you probably are constrained in saying so.

    The whole of Northern Ireland politics needs a good sharp blast of fresh air and I think a discussion on the Islamo-fascist leanings of the Irish neo-Left might just be a start. This is all I will write on this, probably, cover my articles on blogger and I will defend my ideas from all-comers. Cheers. Good luck to your site. We are only at the beginning not the end. Difference will make us great.

  • 6countyprod

    F(ox) news is nothing but republican propaganda.

    If that is the case, why does Fox use AP from many of their main reports. A more anti-Bush/Republican oufit you will not find, well, maybe apart from NYT, LAT, CNN, CBS, Newsweek …

    Fox helps to bring a bit of balance, don’t you think?

  • Henry94

    Felix

    I’m going to have to take you seriously long enough to repudiate any suggestion that I am motivated by any malice towards Israel nor do I claim to be well-informed enough to hold strong opinions on the question.

    My view which I believe is shared by almost the entire world is that justice must be done for the Palestinians and that Israel’s security and territorial integrity must be assured in any solution.

    Let me further add that anti-semitism of the left wing or right-wing variety is in my view a sure sign of a dingbat.

  • spartacus

    Aye, Felix. Your ideas do deserve a fair wind, whatever that means. Why don’t you and that turgid Vance start a kibbutz for dim-witted and semi-literate wannabe stormtroopers somewhere? I know, I know, ball not man, but sheesh, this is wacko stuff: an incoherent grasp of history combined with a penchant for the McCarthyite smear and a pinch of sexist buffoonery thrown in for good measure. Oh, yes, we’ll all be dashing off to become enraptured in your blogs now, as we are sorely in need of enlightenment from someone with such a clear grasp of reality. Either that or I’ll go watch the intermission screen on the telly.

  • felix quigley

    Definitely a nautical phrase but where I picked it up no idea. I like it anyway.

    It means basically that I have managed to put together a site and that the ideas that are on it can either be ignored or they can be taken up and argued about. I naturally want the latter.

    It means to cut through the hypocricy that you often find on the net and that on my site I hope to do the following things:

    1. Explain rather carefully the history of the struggle for a Jewish Homeland or a Jewish state which has its origins in all of those 2000 years of persecution following the Roman expulsion right back in the 1st century AD

    2. So from the above explaining the origin of Zionism which the Jews always carried with them, the idea of returning to Zion, with the saying which they had at the end of the Passover “Next year in Jerusalem”. Judaism and nationalism were thus mixed together.

    3. And so explaining that the neo-Left is actually being anti-Semitic when they refer to Zionism as racist and even in the case of publications like Counterpunch, the Blanket etc as being “fascist” and “Nazi”. Again I know what I’m talking about I can produce quotations sourced to the moon.

    4. As to the issue of “palestinianism” this needs to be discussed and material long hidden in Ireland needs to be brought forward.

    But just take half a minute to look at the constitutions of both Fatah and Hamas, and you will find they both seek the destruction of Israel, and the Zionist presence, and for there to be one historic Palestine and no Israel and so on. And the schoolbooks of this “Historic Palestine”, the books in PA schools, have maps which show not a mention of Israel.

    That one historic Palestine I would argue would be based on Islam, ie on Sharia, and Jews and other minorities would be once more dhimmis.

    Here I am only stating the basic programme of a future Palestine state as told us by Palestinian Arab leaders.

    There is a momentous situation building up in Israel and in Gaza ignored by all the media. I would say that the Jewish state of Israel is in great danger, not least from within, where now a clear majority of Israelis are against Sharons plans to withdraw from Gaza, an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews, yet Sharon and his governmental supporters go ahead anyway.

    There is also the question that Sharon in the last election fought and was elected on the programme of not withdrawing from Yesha but he is now pursuing the opposite policy, in other words the programme of his opponent in the election.

    Then there is the role that Bush and the US State Department plays and has always played, it is easily proved that the State was opposed to Israel ever existing and is filled with anti-Semites.

    To Spartacus. Strangely enough I find your post really interesting. Last time I contributed to Micks site I was too wrapped up and took things that people like you said personally. Now I am more objective and it is not like that at all. I read your post, it is funny, you have got a sense of humour and I don’t mind that at all.

    But when I look at it as an advocate for Israel and for Zionism then I say to myself what utter and complete ignorance. This is a person who judging only by your post (and that may be misleading) but judging by it alone has NO idea of this most important of all issues.

    You see I have taken the time to make a real study of this issue. I know what I´m talking about. Your comments like “stormtroopers” now that is total tripe and frankly is like water off a ducks back to me.

    For example you write:

    ‘Why don’t you and that turgid Vance start a kibbutz for dim-witted and semi-literate wannabe stormtroopers somewhere? I know, I know, ball not man, but sheesh, this is wacko stuff: an incoherent grasp of history combined with a penchant for the McCarthyite smear and a pinch of sexist buffoonery thrown in for good measure. ‘

    Play the ball, never a problem with me, never was never will be.

    But the bit about “incoherent grasp of history”.
    The thing about this is that that has to be tested and it can only be tested by my opponents challenging me on this history.

    And what a history! A history that seems to encompass the whole history of the human race and of course I am not just talking about the Holocaust or the “Palestinian” phenomenon.

    This is wacko stuff” you write, but what is? You don´t say so how can an opponent answer! And so on. Words Spartacus are easy but content is a different thing altogether.

    As regards McWilliams and the Womens Coalition I never did see such a lot of reactionary, pro-Establishment and boring women in all my life. That Womens Coalition was a creation of the British Government, it used them to create an artificial majority in order to sideline Paisley’s DUP and others. They are an obstacle to the freedom of women rather than the reverse. It is not accidental that McWilliams after being interviewed by the BBC so often and being the favourite of the British and Irish media is now being given her recompense in this new job.

    And I hope that is all I have to say!

  • Alan McDonald

    I weighed in here a few days ago, so let me try again.

    I live in the USA so I can observe mass media (TV and talk-radio) as well as the Internet. I read the blogs and other websites to get international news from non-US sources. In the US, most of the people who voted in the 2004 election (no data to back this up, just a hunch) got their information from the mass media, not from the web.

    I finally figured out why 6 county prod has the opinion he does about Fox News: He reads it rather than seeing/hearing it. On air, there is no parity between left and right. Those allowed to speak who have a perceived left bent are weak debaters, loonies or cut off when they start t make a point.

    Felix, on the othr hand, uses the well-worn debating technique of the straw man. He posits a pro-Palestinian (specifically Hamas) as opponent to attack. Trust me that Palestinian support in the United States is less than the margin of error. I have spoken with hundreds of my fellow Americans on this issue, and I have discovered exactly one pro-Palestinian.

  • Felix Quigley

    No straw man technique used here Alan. You use the faulty technique of personal experience. I follow a different methodology.

    First of all I research history on the Jewish Israeli issue and I find that the US is not the friend of the Jews of Israel and under every conditions the Jews of Israel must maintain their independence. They have no friends in this world and must above all achieve their independence and especially from the US.

    I cannot work you out.

    Living in the US you must be aware of the incredible hostility of Eisenhower and Dulles to Israel and its growing links with the Arabs, especially with Saudi Arabian rulers.

    But why I cannot really work you out is that Bush and Cheney are working actively, along with the EU and the Quartet (Russia) to bring into being a Palestinian state.

    The immediate issue is the withdrawal from Gaza and Northern Shamron and this is going against the wishes of the MAJORITY of Israelis, and the great majority of Israeli Jews.

    Bush has said he wants Israel back to the 1949 borders, this is what Abba Eban called the Auschitz borders, where Israel is in the middle only 9 miles wide and where the Jordan armies threatened to cut it in two.

    I have some articles on this on my site http://www.isill.blogspot.com and more coming up on the issue of Eisenhower and Israel.

  • Felix Quigley

    No straw man technique used here Alan. You use the faulty technique of personal experience. I follow a different methodology.

    First of all I research history on the Jewish Israeli issue and I find that the US is not the friend of the Jews of Israel and under every conditions the Jews of Israel must maintain their independence. They have no friends in this world and must above all achieve their independence and especially from the US.

    I cannot work you out.

    Living in the US you must be aware of the incredible hostility of Eisenhower and Dulles to Israel and its growing links with the Arabs, especially with Saudi Arabian rulers.

    But why I cannot really work you out is that Bush and Cheney are working actively, along with the EU and the Quartet (Russia) to bring into being a Palestinian state.

    The immediate issue is the withdrawal from Gaza and Northern Shamron and this is going against the wishes of the MAJORITY of Israelis, and the great majority of Israeli Jews.

    Bush has said he wants Israel back to the 1949 borders, this is what Abba Eban called the Auschitz borders, where Israel is in the middle only 9 miles wide and where the Jordan armies threatened to cut it in two.

    I have some articles on this on my site http://www.isill.blogspot.com and more coming up on the issue of Eisenhower and Israel.

  • Felix Quigley

    No straw man technique used here Alan. You use the faulty technique of personal experience. I follow a different methodology.

    First of all I research history on the Jewish Israeli issue and I find that the US is not the friend of the Jews of Israel and under every conditions the Jews of Israel must maintain their independence. They have no friends in this world and must above all achieve their independence and especially from the US.

    I cannot work you out.

    Living in the US you must be aware of the incredible hostility of Eisenhower and Dulles to Israel and its growing links with the Arabs, especially with Saudi Arabian rulers.

    But why I cannot really work you out is that Bush and Cheney are working actively, along with the EU and the Quartet (Russia) to bring into being a Palestinian state.

    The immediate issue is the withdrawal from Gaza and Northern Shamron and this is going against the wishes of the MAJORITY of Israelis, and the great majority of Israeli Jews.

    Bush has said he wants Israel back to the 1949 borders, this is what Abba Eban called the Auschitz borders, where Israel is in the middle only 9 miles wide and where the Jordan armies threatened to cut it in two.

    I have some articles on this on my site http://www.isill.blogspot.com and more coming up on the issue of Eisenhower and Israel.

  • Alan McDonald

    OK, Felix, I’ll bite.

    Now that we have drifted completely off the point of this thread, what borders do you propose for Israel? I’m guessing you will say that they should keep all the land they gained in the six day war. Should they get Sinai back from Egypt?

    Yes, I admit to being one of those stupid Yanks that thinks the US is pro-Israel and that we invade countries in the Middle East specifically to protect Israel as well as for access to the Saudi and Gulf states oil.

    I see that Israeli public support for the Gaza pullou has slipped and that Hamas has shown political gains. I also remember that the US refused to recognize the elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and I’m sure we will not back Hamas (which is on the State Department’s list of Terrorist organizations) against Israel.

    Go ahead, call me Pollyanna.

    Shalom

  • felix quigley

    Yes Alan, sorry Mick, it was something about blogs

    Alan Israel should understand that the aim of the Arabs is to destroy Israel full stop. The problem is that Israel is so hated in almost all of the world, certainly here in Ireland, and we can give you an awful lot of proof of this.

    I do not know how well acquainted you are probably you are but you should know that the republican movement, every single wing of it is anti-Israel and especially anti-Zionist, though I am not sure they understood just what Zionism is.

    As an Irish person it is very hard for me to take other Irish calling Israeli a Nazi state etc.

    On borders etc I have some ideas but no answers, just that Jewish people must understand the history of this and especially the role of Britain as it betrayed on its Mandate trust from 1921 to 1948 to create a Homeland for the Jews. I am afraid I have to bow out of this discussion. But I would point out that with this Palestinian Arab state this is the 23rd Arab state created out of the collapse of the Ottaman Empire and the second Arab state created on that original 1921 Homeland League of Nations treaty. It is possible that many people who attack Israel do not even know the basic geography of the area or understand how small is Israel and how it is dwarfed by historical enemies.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Felix, quite a lot of people are anti-Israel. That’s what generally happens if you violently occupy an area of land and throw the existing occupiers off it, particularly if you use terrorism to do it (eg King David Hotel bombing and others). A popular word is “Liebensraum”. The fascinating thing is that a lot of people who call themselves democrats and opponents of terror will quite happily tell you that the actions of the Irgun were justified.

    Your contributions here sound rather like hate-filled rants.

  • felix quigley

    Alan I hope you can read this before it is closed by site organisers. Thinking on it overnight I wanted to explain a couple of things and this will be my last attempt. (Comrade Stalin I will answer in a moment but your post is provocative not instructional)

    The reason we moved onto this subject is because on the subject not just of blogs but the whole media generally there is a terrible situation now in the Gaza and Northern Shamron when 14 year old Jewess girls are being put in prison and viciously attacked because of their orthodox religious views. The media which supports Sharon and is hostile to Israel and especially to Orthodox Jews is silent, ie no coverage.

    I think I was critical of Mick Fealty for not finding a way to cover this, and I feel there is a way, ie lots of Northern Ireland connections, if you want to play it like that. Mick is democratic and political debate he always encourages even if we do move off a bit. And my points on Israel are always political and never personal. I can always back up with facts and sources.

    You asked me what borders. I cannot answer. I do not campaign or even think like that. Maybe I should but I don’t. (I am Irish, not Jewish, but as an Irish person I am struck by how Jews are still being treated)

    But I do say that on the issue of Israel and borders the world has once more been cruel to the Jews.

    I try to look at the issue historically and pay attention here to a couple of points.

    1. The historical links of Jews to the Holy Land
    2. The first settlements by Zioonism
    3. The breakup of the Ottoman Empire
    4. The attitude of Arabs to Jews ie dhimmitude
    5. The fatal Mandate period with the British in control

    And so on but I pay special attention to the 1947 -49 period and the question of Arab AND Jewish refugees.

    Then a picture emerges of a small nation, the Jews, trying to survive.

    And the more I have studied the more I have found myself on the side of the Jews and of Israel and opposed to the grasping and anti-Semitic nature of the Arabs towards the Jews and their Homeland.

    Finally, to not dodge the question you put on borders, I feel that we have to take into consideration the original Balfour Declaration and the following treaty in international law of the League of Nations. That includes Jordan because the British created this country unilaterally and illegally. That should be Jewish Homeland territory and since 1921 not one Jew has been able to live there. It is Judenfrei, thanks to Albion. At a stroke that was 80% of the Homeland gone.

    The opposite is happening. Israel is being forced back to the 1949 Armistice Lines, note not borders, Armistice lines which at the centre are 9 miles wide and proved to be indefensible. Being forced back by Bush and Rice. Sharon’s withdrawal from Gaza and the state attack on Jewish girls as only one small example of what is going on I posit in that context.

    Alan I think you said above I used a debating method etc. You misread me. I am a partisan of the Jewish nation and I feel they must have a Homeland like any other nation. It is a living struggle and I simply wish I did not have to debate at all, but could go out and play golf, or tennis or whatever one does when enjoyment is the order of the day. Believe me this continual attack on Israel (see the use of the word liebensraum below) is NOT enjoyable.

    Comrade Stalin. I do hate these pseudonames, I wish people would use their real name. Anyhow I know there may be difficulties.

    The gist is probably in your use of this word “liebensraum”. It is not a popular or common word, it has a definite association with Hitler and Hitler’s racism. Why use it in relation to Israel?

    Is it possible to insult the Jewish people more than to make any comparision between Israel and the Nazis.

    But it is not accidental that you use it. It is a common device on sections of the neo-Left to do this.

    Let´s answer each point you make. You write ” violently occupy an area of land and throw the existing occupiers off it, “

    Explain the use of these words…violently, occupy…throw off it.

    Please tell me when this happened, where etc.

    Also you write “particularly if you use terrorism to do it (eg King David Hotel bombing and others). “

    How do you read the bombing of the King David Hotel? I read it as an action which was directed against the headquarters of the British Army in Palestine and it was totally justified.

    The loss of life was not meant or anticipated though in all such war situations there was always that danger. But a warning was given and it was not passed on.

    It is remarkable that Israel is attacked for this bombing by people on the left in Ireland and in the republican movement. Israel was then conducting a major struggle, which can only be called a struggle for national liberation, against the British army.

    You refer to the bombing as the actions of the Irgun and there you are misleading. It was carried out not just by the Irgun but by the Hagannah as well.

    “The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was built by the Moseri family, members of the wealthy and influential Jewish establishment in Cairo and Alexandria. They set up a shareholding company to finance its construction, consisting mainly of Egyptian businessmen and wealthy Jews from all over the world. The luxurious seven-storey building, with 200 rooms, was opened to the public in 1931. In 1938, the Mandatory government requisitioned the entire southern wing of the hotel, and housed the military command and the Mandatory government secretariat there. The British chose the King David for its central location and because it was easy to guard. They built a military communications center in the hotel basement and, for security reasons, added a side entrance linking the building to an army camp south of the hotel. Fewer than a third of the rooms were reserved for civilian use.

    It will be recalled that after Black Sabbath (Saturday), Menahem Begin received a letter from Moshe Sneh (chief of the Haganah General Headquarters) with instructions to blow up the King David. After preparatory work and several postponements, Irgun fighters gathered at 7 am. on Monday, July 22, 1946 at the Bet Aharon Talmud Torah seminary in Jerusalem. They arrived one by one, gave the password and assembled in one of the classrooms. They realized that they were being sent on a mission, but none of them knew what the target was. Shortly afterwards, the senior command arrived and it was only when the briefing began that the assembled fighters discovered that they were going to strike at the King David Hotel”

    This is available on this url, also more information on the warning, and the use made of the bombing by the Jewish Agency to outlaw the Irgun (Ie they lied about it) on
    http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

    Finally you write “Your contributions here sound rather like hate-filled rants”.

    I do take this accusation seriously. Yes I have a lot of hatred for what has happened to the Jewish people, I do hate the Nazis for the Holocaust, I am not at all keen on Sharon when I see young Jewish girls and boys of 14 or so thrown into prison, I do hate the media for refusing to cover it.

    But a rant? Really? Are you serious?

    A rant has the implication of no logic but I argue my case and the organisers of this site know that I argue my case and I can source my arguments with documented material. They may not agree with me, but they would never refer to my writing as a “rant”.

    The above is a good example. You just touch on issues at the level of prejudice but I have taken the trouble and time to do some serious study of the issue (such as the Hotel David bombing) and all the complicated historical aftermath.