Tough Parade regulation could cause trouble

Tougher regulation (which demands the names of specfic organisers be supplied in advance of a given parade) from the Parades Commission could lead to trouble in places well beyond the tradition trouble spots.

  • Henry94

    I’m sure no law-abiding person will object to giving their names to the Parades Commission if they are organising a parade. What possibble objection could they have?

  • Stephen Warke

    Henry, this is where the problem lies.

    The Parades Commissio aparently make decisions corporately.

    yet they cannot understand that an Orange Lodge or District corporately organises a Parade.

    This is where the problem inherently lies.

  • Henry94

    Stephen Warke

    The lodge has a Grand Master or something doesn’t it? He could give his name. Every organisation delegates someone who can sign documents on their behalf.

    If Sinn Fein organised a parade I’m sure nobody would have a problem with Gerry Adams signing the form.

  • Alan

    I agree with H94 on this. The body corporate must still have its representatives. Officers will sign to open a bank account, or to book a hotel for a meeting, why not for a parade?

    Someone must be deemed responsible. If, for instance, a community group organises an event, fails to organise insurance and someone is badly injured, then someone must be made amenable – just so with the OO.

  • Darrell Monteith

    This legislation like all of the parades legislation is designed to cause trouble. The whole idea was driven by Adams & Co with the weakly SDLP cow-towing as ever to their demands.

    The ridiculous plans to force parade organisers to tell in advance how many people will come to watch and the suggestions that the Orangemen be forced to pay for policing parades are both designed to push further the sectarian apartheid which drives the whole parades commission concept.

  • fair_deal

    Henry

    A lodge has a Worshipful Master not a Grand Master.

    Alan

    “Officers will sign to open a bank account, or to book a hotel for a meeting, why not for a parade?”

    A cheque for a lodge or community group usually requires more than one signature so the sole representative stuff doesn’t work. A lodge is run by an officer team so they are all involved in organising a parade as are the membership. Why must it all fall on one person? Or is the demand for a single person an attempt to intimidate people from taking Lodge positions where parades that attract protests?

    The Belfast Twelfth involves a large number of bands, thousands of members on parade and a team of marshals so it is not non-sensical to say ONE person is the organiser?

  • Alan

    *The Belfast Twelfth involves a large number of bands, thousands of members on parade and a team of marshals so it is not non-sensical to say ONE person is the organiser?*

    I know some unionists have problems with the concept of leadership, but that comment is dripping in diversionary fudge.

    Someone has to be responsible, just as a political party has to have someone who is responsible for signing the nominations form for prospective candidates, just as HMQ speaks at the opening of parliament. The idea is that by agreeing responsibility, then that responsibility can cascade through the rest of the organisation. If you then step out of line, you are hurting your own organisation.

    I hope this is no harbinger of a deterioration of the progress towards the relatively peaceful summers that we have seen over the past few years.

  • fair_deal

    Alan

    “Someone has to be responsible”

    Organisations can be legal entities too why can they not be that ‘someone’?

  • Brendan

    Incorporated organisations may have separate legal identities in law, however they act through their representatives e.g. Board of Directors/Trustees

  • Henry94

    This legislation like all of the parades legislation is designed to cause trouble. The whole idea was driven by Adams & Co with the weakly SDLP cow-towing as ever to their demands.

    Darrell

    Do you think it’s OK to disobey laws you don’t like?

  • fair_deal

    “Do you think it’s OK to disobey laws you don’t like?”

    Civil disobedience – YES (worked for the Indian nationalism and Civil Rights movemen and a local example the republican movement for most of the troubles never provided notice for their marches as a symbol of their rejection of the state.)
    Trying to identify procedurals flaws and legally challenging the powers of bodies who impose them – YES
    Engage in violence – NO

  • Ringo

    weakly SDLP cow-towing ???

    I can see Darrels point – this depraved nationalist tradition shouldn’t be allowed to interfere with parading.

  • Darrell Monteith

    “Do you think it’s OK to disobey laws you don’t like?”

    Ask Ghandi,

    this commission is about large scale oppression of the law abiding by forcing them to become non-law abiding.

    Bad laws need to be broken or they will never be changed.

  • TAFKABO

    Couldn’t they just come up with their own orange verion of P O’Neil?

    K W O’Boyne?

    (I’ll get me coat)

  • bill

    “Do you think it’s OK to disobey laws you don’t like?”

    It depends whether you use the UFF & UVF to help you.

  • Henry94

    Darrell

    Bad laws need to be broken or they will never be changed.

    I commend you for your honesty. The Orange are then in rebelion against her majesty’s government and civil disobedience will be the tactic.

    That is legitimate. There is a reponsibility on the organisers (whoever they are) of this rebelion to confine themselves to peaceful and democratic means and to make sure their followers do the same.

    Ghandi should indeed be the role model.

  • bill

    “Couldn’t they just come up with their own orange verion of P O’Neil?”

    Thet already have,its called the orange volunteers

  • headmelter

    suggestions that the Orangemen be forced to pay for policing parades

    who does pay for policing?

    In England football clubs are required to pay for policing at games. Why can the same rule not be applied here for such things as parades.

    Recently the northern bank changed all its bank notes with a heavy police presence, did they foot the bill for this?

    It may seem silly but it is a genuine question

  • Alan

    Darrel.

    I cannot see how the parades legislation is in any way onerous for the OO. If I want to drive – I tax the car, if I want to fish – I get a licence, if I want to vote – I register.

    I don’t expect to do any of these things without signing my name to something. Ordinary people in the street don’t understand why the OO have a problem with that. It just looks like petulance.

  • martin

    it is a historical fact that William 3’s army at the Boyne contained almost every nationality in Europe–noticably sparse were the Ulster Scots who today have the obsession with it–matter of fact there were more Southern Irish Catholic soldiers of fortune in foreign service –fighting for Billy than there were ULSTER Protestants

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    Ghandi should indeed be the role model.

    A comment dripping with hypocrisy from someone who supports the Provisional republican movement.

  • Henry94

    I expect any reply I make to that will be removed along with your comment so there is little point but I think Ghandi should be the role model for all of us and if you have an argument with that feel free to make it.

  • Niall

    “A lodge has a Worshipful Master not a Grand Master….”

    Posted by: fair_deal

    Isn’t that the same as a Grand Wizard of the KKK ?!!? as per Reiss via Fr Sean McManus.

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    I expect any reply I make to that will be removed along with your comment so there is little point but I think Ghandi should be the role model for all of us and if you have an argument with that feel free to make it.

    I have no argument with it! It’s not me who supports the retention of death squads and gives justification to a heinous 30-year murder campaign. You’re the one with the issues with peace and peaceful campaigning, not me.

  • trevor

    Any up and coming protests will probably consist of the totally innocent OO members being backed up by the knuckle dragging thugs of the uvf/uff

  • G2

    `”The Parades Commissio aparently make decisions corporately. yet they cannot understand that an Orange Lodge or District corporately organises a Parade.”

    “This is where the problem inherently lies”

    The problem inherently lies with the Orange Order’s ego. This is another example of their stupidity which will backfire on them like Drumcree.and make them look the silly buggers they all are.

  • Alan2

    Henry – do you mean the likes of the Hunger Strike commemorations on Derry on March 1st?

    “A number of the North West’s most senior republicans – including a former hunger striker turned Sinn Fein MLA – were today facing prosecution over an illegal march in Londonderry.

    Three Sinn Fein councillors and two former councillors have been warned by police that they face prosecution following the march in the city.”

    “A spokesman for the Foyle PSNI hit back, saying that proper notification had not been given before the march was staged.

    He confirmed: “This was an illegal parade and unfortunately on this occasion the notification required to hold a parade was not received.

    “The matter is being investigated and a report is currently being prepared for the Director of Public Prosecutions.”

    From what I hear Republican parades are organised by “P O`Neil”:-

    The Orange Lodge Ulster Defenders of the Realm LOL 710 had their application to march to the city centre on February 20 refused because the controversial 11-1 form was incorrectly filled out.

    When asked to provide details of the organiser, the Orangemen put down the name of the lodge, not the individual, as required by the Commission.

    However, in response to a query by Mr Copeland about the individual who organised the following day’s fraught republican parade in Strabane, the Commission said it wasn’t actually its policy to verify that part of the form.

    “The Commission does not as a matter of course seek to verify the identity of organisers,” read the Commission’s reply to Mr Copeland.

    “It has neither the resources nor the remit to undertake such a task.”

  • Alan2

    The above lodge parade and also as the Belfast Orange Widows Parade was also deemed illegal for the same reasons and are being prosecuted for filing the 11/1 form with the name and address of the lodge rather than an individual.

  • Niall

    ” “Do you think it’s OK to disobey laws you don’t like?”

    Ask Ghandi,

    this commission is about large scale oppression of the law abiding by forcing them to become non-law abiding.

    Bad laws need to be broken or they will never be changed.

    Posted by: Darrell Monteith at June 13, 2005 10:59 PM”

    might I point out the answer to question 1 on the attached Beeb link to Darrell and question his Britishness ?………Life in the UK says to be British means you should…
    A: “Respect laws, the elected political structures, traditional values of mutual tolerance and respect for rights and mutual concern.”

    I especially like the bit about “mutual tolerance and respect for rights and mutual concern” in light of the DUPed support of Harryville protests etc.

  • Niall

    Opps, it didn’t paste the first time. Sorry…

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4099770.stm