Golf club wins right to continue excluding women

The Irish High Court has found that one of Ireland’s top golf clubs, Portmarnock in Dublin, can continue to prevent women from becoming full members overturning a previous decison by the District Court last year that the club was a discriminating club under the terms of the equal status act.

Is this a vindication of the men’s right to freedom of association or a setback for women’s rights?

  • Baluba

    Ridiculous in this day and age – pure and simple.

  • DCB

    They are wasting their members funds as the european courts will inevitably plumb for the women.

    Still isn’t it freedom of assembly. It’s a private members club after all. There was a case with El Vino’s wine bar in Fleet St not allowing women to stand at the bar, but it was a public bar.

    Up north it would have been very interesting to see what would have happened if the plans to relocate Balmoral golf club had progressed.

    Would the “associate lady” members have received their cut of the cash?

  • DCB

    Surely DCB you can’t argue ‘Freedom of Assembly’ when the issue revolves around exclusion?

    Good question about Balmoral. The sceptic in me says no, but conjecture is never too sound anyway, is it?

  • DCB

    I think the answer would most certainly have been no but there would have been one almighty blow up about it.

    The initial figures talked about were not insignificant either. About £50k per member IIRC, though planning restrictions cut it way back and when it transpired that the cash wouldn’t go far at Assic Agnew the members lost interest.

    Surely if you run your own private members club you can exclude whoever you want. Just as a presbertian church doesn’t have to let a satinist (never mind a roman catholic) join as an elder.

  • Baluba

    True. Religions always throw up interesting issues. When things are supposed to be pre-written by a divine entity, it is hard to convince otherwise.

    I look forward to the day when people wake up to orgainsed religion myself.

  • Keith M

    Any private club should have the right to discrimiate on whatever grounds it sees fit. This is a notable victory for common sense.

  • Henry94

    KiethM

    Would it be ok with you if they excluded Jews? I agree with the principle you outline but there are circumstances where I think other principles overrule it.

    I don’t argue that this is such a case however. Men and Women should be entitled to organise thier own clubs.

  • Young Irelander

    I think it’s the correct decision. There’s too much pandering these days to the lefties. It’s alright for men to be secluded and even denigrated in the media and whatnot (Loose Women – ITV for example) yet at the slightest hint of the same thing happening to women and people are up in arms.

    It’s a crazy world we’re living in these days. You can’t even make a joke any more as you’re offending an ethnic group!

  • Young Irelander

    I think it’s the correct decision. There’s too much pandering these days to the lefties. It’s alright for men to be secluded and even denigrated in the media and whatnot (Loose Women – ITV for example) yet at the slightest hint of the same thing happening to women and people are up in arms.

    It’s a crazy world we’re living in these days. You can’t even make a joke any more as you’re offending an ethnic group!

  • Young Irelander

    I think it’s the correct decision. There’s too much pandering these days to the lefties. It’s alright for men to be secluded and even denigrated in the media and whatnot (Loose Women – ITV for example) yet at the slightest hint of the same thing happening to women and people are up in arms.

    It’s a crazy world we’re living in these days. You can’t even make a joke any more as you’re offending an ethnic group!

  • Baluba

    This is not a club exclusively for men it is a club that denies women full membership and the perks that go with it. That is discriminatory. They can come and play and spend their money as long as they don’t want a stake in running the place.

    Next thing they’ll be knitting doillies on the 9th hole and wanting to breastfeed on the 12th.

    It’s just not cricket (or golf).

    Women have/are the most long-term and comprehensively discriminated against people in the history of the world.

    Time to stop that jazz. People are free to set up their own clubs, certainly, but this is a case of ‘keep them off the rungs of the ladder’ not ‘we just want to be boys together’.

  • Amy M

    Baluba makes a good point, in that this club is not exclusively for men.

    There is an important distinction to be drawn between groups which ought to be entitled to be exclusive, and groups which ought to be obligated to be inclusive. For example, a group established to advocate for the rights of single fathers should be able to close its membership to women, because to include women would be to threaten the group’s capacity to advocate for single fathers’ rights.

    In contrast, there is no legitimate reason why a club established primarily to enable its members to play golf should be able to exclude women as members. Granting women full membership rights need have no impact on the ability of the club’s male members to enjoy their own membership rights, although restricting the membership rights of women may well impact on their enjoyment of the sport and the club’s facilities.

    To Young Irelander I say – why don’t you list all the areas of life in which men’s rights are more limited than women’s? When that list is as long as the list of areas in which women’s rights are restricted or denied, then it might be time for people to say a little less about the denial of women’s rights.

  • Ringo

    There’s too much pandering these days to the lefties.

    Who? Mickelson?

  • Sean Fear

    Nobody is compelled to join a golf club that doesn’t grant them full membership rights. Presumably it is open to anyone who is not granted full membership rights (a) to set up their own golf club and/or (b) join a golf club that does grant them full membership rights, and or (c) seek to change the club rules in accordance with the club’s constitution.

    I think that rules of this nature are silly *but* anyone who joins this golf club is a volunteer, and it would be wrong for a court to overturn the rules that people accept of their own free will.

  • Davros

    Equality – if women can specify women only in their Gyms, why not men only at some Golf Clubs, women only at other Golf clubs and there are clubs that are mixed.

    There’s a Judeo-Christian biblical precedent for those wanting to go down that path.

    Last offering:

    ‘Bona mulier fons gratiae, Attamen ipsae in parvularum rerum suarum occupationibus verrentur. Nos de tantulis rebus consulere non decet.’

  • Young Irelander

    “To Young Irelander I say – why don’t you list all the areas of life in which men’s rights are more limited than women’s? When that list is as long as the list of areas in which women’s rights are restricted or denied, then it might be time for people to say a little less about the denial of women’s rights.”

    Women have it fine. Too good in fact. Society is attempting to emasculate man in my opinion. Just watch an episode of Friends and see how men are portrayed as blithering idiots. There was a time when guys like John Wayne, Steve McQueen, Clint Eastwood etc. were looked on as role models for young men but nowadays in the age of the ‘metrosexual’, men have been reduced to a laughing stock.

    Women have it just fine in my opinion. What next? A protest because women aren’t allowed use men’s toilets?

  • Young Irelander

    “To Young Irelander I say – why don’t you list all the areas of life in which men’s rights are more limited than women’s? When that list is as long as the list of areas in which women’s rights are restricted or denied, then it might be time for people to say a little less about the denial of women’s rights.”

    Women have it fine. Too good in fact. Society is attempting to emasculate man in my opinion. Just watch an episode of Friends and see how men are portrayed as blithering idiots. There was a time when guys like John Wayne, Steve McQueen, Clint Eastwood etc. were looked on as role models for young men but nowadays in the age of the ‘metrosexual’, men have been reduced to a laughing stock.

    Women have it just fine in my opinion. What next? A protest because women aren’t allowed use men’s toilets?

  • Young Irelander

    “To Young Irelander I say – why don’t you list all the areas of life in which men’s rights are more limited than women’s? When that list is as long as the list of areas in which women’s rights are restricted or denied, then it might be time for people to say a little less about the denial of women’s rights.”

    Women have it fine. Too good in fact. Society is attempting to emasculate man in my opinion. Just watch an episode of Friends and see how men are portrayed as blithering idiots. There was a time when guys like John Wayne, Steve McQueen, Clint Eastwood etc. were looked on as role models for young men but nowadays in the age of the ‘metrosexual’, men have been reduced to a laughing stock.

    Women have it just fine in my opinion. What next? A protest because women aren’t allowed use men’s toilets?

  • Ricardo

    YI

    ‘It’s a crazy world we’re living in these days. You can’t even make a joke any more as you’re offending an ethnic group!’

    In the light of this statement, would you care to reconsider your ‘outrage’ at Owen’s article on the OWC website?

  • neill armstrong

    I know owen very well, he would be chuffed to be talked about in two threads in a week!

  • Roger

    I agree that this is a victory for common sense.

    Women need to realsie that men like to get some peace away from them at times a break from tantrums and flirting and mood swings and all the other nonsense that 21st centuary girls get up to.

  • Young Irelander

    “In the light of this statement, would you care to reconsider your ‘outrage’ at Owen’s article on the OWC website?”

    Owen’s article was a hate-filled diatribe. I don’t think there was any humour in him calling Keane and his family “gypsies” and Irish people “beggars”. Most people are intelligent enough to know the difference between a comment in jest and an out and out insult.

    I would hope that you are not of the opinion that there was nothing inappropriate in Owen’s article?

  • Young Irelander

    “In the light of this statement, would you care to reconsider your ‘outrage’ at Owen’s article on the OWC website?”

    Owen’s article was a hate-filled diatribe. I don’t think there was any humour in him calling Keane and his family “gypsies” and Irish people “beggars”. Most people are intelligent enough to know the difference between a comment in jest and an out and out insult.

    I would hope that you are not of the opinion that there was nothing inappropriate in Owen’s article?

  • Young Irelander

    “In the light of this statement, would you care to reconsider your ‘outrage’ at Owen’s article on the OWC website?”

    Owen’s article was a hate-filled diatribe. I don’t think there was any humour in him calling Keane and his family “gypsies” and Irish people “beggars”. Most people are intelligent enough to know the difference between a comment in jest and an out and out insult.

    I would hope that you are not of the opinion that there was nothing inappropriate in Owen’s article?

  • Martin Dub

    I’m probably showing my complete ignorance on this one, but isn’t the Orange Order male only.

  • Ricardo

    ‘It’s a crazy world we’re living in these days. You can’t even make a joke any more as you’re offending an ethnic group!’

    You say ‘hate filled diatribe’, I say joke.

    Given that later in the article, he referred to the english as been ‘cross bred with iguanas’ are you still saying he was being serious?

    Funny how your sense of humour seems to disappear when it suits you, eh YI?

  • mick hall

    What is it with this discrimination is fine if it goes on behind closed doors and it is what the members want. That is like saying it is fine to beat kids black and blue in the home, because this is what the parents want. Discrimination of any kind is wrong, whether it is based on race sex or color, what is up with you guys, get into the 21st century, this is nothing to do with liberals or lefties but common decency. 25 years ago I was on the management committee of a working mens club; and all the arguments posted to this thread were put forth when we changed the rules to allow women membership. To hear some members talk back then one would have thought the earth was about to come to an end. Once women became members, life went on much as it had before, although the bar was a far more congenial place. It is a mystery to me why some men when confronted with women’s equality, act like frightened bunny rabbets caught in the glare of a a car headlight.

    No one has the right to discriminate against others and all the excuses given to justifying doing so are balderdash. Of course it is no accident many of those golf [private] clubs that today still refuse to accept women as members, in the past were at the fore-front of discriminating against jews and blacks and in all probability gays. I just wonder how these bigots conduct themselves in their working lives, as many members of these golf [private] clubs have responsible jobs.

    This is not a private issue, discrimination is something which degrades us all if it is allowed to go on.

  • Amy M

    Young Irelander, if your only proof that women are better off than men these days is an episode of ‘Friends’ I suggest you do a bit more reading and bit less watching TV. And when men were becoming bigger men back in the days when John Wayne was their role model, who did women have to look up to? The little wife, tied by the apron strings to the kitchen? Would you like things to go back to the 50s?

    These sorts of debates aren’t important to women just because they care where they can play golf. They are important because men have always enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the dominant position in society. They continue to earn, on average, a third more than women, who are often forced into low-waged, part-time jobs. They occupy almost all the positions of power in politics, the law, and business. Women are frequently judged according to a male standard.

    Women oppose decisions like the one we’re discussing because they are representative of the pervasive sexism in our society. The membership rules of golf clubs will be far less of a concern when there is true equality between the sexes, but I fear that’s a long way off yet.

  • PS

    Mick Hall and Amy M

    Excellent points and I agree whole heartedly. Discrimination against women is no more excusable than discrimination against Blacks or Jews and it is only the most archaic and outdated of minds that would defend such a situation. I agree with Amy that men still occupy the dominant position in society.

  • Keith M

    Henry “Would it be ok with you if they excluded Jews?”. Please read my post again, I’ll emphasise the key words; “Any PRIVATE club should have the right to discrimiate on WHATEVER grounds it sees fit.”. If it’s a private members club, then they can choose to deny membership on any grounds they see fit.

    However by extension, if the public feels that this club is acting against the public interest, they should ensure that the taxpayers money should not be spent on it.

  • Colm

    Mick Hall makes a very impassioned and excellent case against against discrimination and it is to be hoped that such bigoted attitudes continue to diminish and although I doubt it will ever happen – dissapear.

    However , he is wrong in believing that private organisations must not be allowed to discriminate. There is a world of a difference between the public and private spheres. A democratic society cannot tell private voluntary associations how to act.

    We can, rightfully mock such bigoted attitudes but the important point to remember is NOBODY HAS TO JOIN SUCH CLUBS and and private gatherings or organisations should never be interferred with by the state as long as they recieve no public subsidy or assistance .

    When the state interferes in the private sphere where do you draw the line ?. If an individual holds a private party in his home every week and invites his neighbours but excludes ones of a particular race he would cleearly be guilty of offensive discrimination worthy of condemnation but should the law prevent him from doing so ?

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “You say ‘hate filled diatribe’, I say joke.

    Given that later in the article, he referred to the english as been ‘cross bred with iguanas’ are you still saying he was being serious?”

    Anyone who thinks this is a joke needs their head examined. It is bigotry. Pure and simple. If a person made these kind of comments in their place of work they would be fired on the spot.

    Here’s a selection of the comments:

    “Given the choice, however, between a ruling elite that have been crossbred with iguanas and listening to the beggars’ bullshit I must confess I’d go for the former every time”

    “Our purportedly “local” broadcasters set aside a full week of news time to cover the foul-mouthed outbursts and bad-tempered brawlings of one of Cork’s travelling community”

    “In all fairness being a psychotic gipsy can be a serious problem for a person. Roy was also probably concerned about his family. I’m told it’s been a tough few years for itinerant driveway tarmaccers”

    “Of course the most shocking thing about the Keane affair was the reaction of those fun-loving scamps, the beggar supporters”

    “Not entirely surprising that they supported an abusive and violent scumbag when you consider we’re talking about a country where dishonesty and casual criminality are often viewed as endearing national quirks”

    “Of course the most disgraceful piece of hubris and mendacity was the claim that the tinkers outplayed Spain. The Spanish (once again the beggars found themselves behind) had the ball in the net three more times and each effort was struck off, Mick’s multinationals equalising penalty came from a highly unconvincing foul on Niall Quinn”

    “The Republic and their fans were on the plane home with only their self-delusion and whatever they’d stolen from their Asian hosts to bring with them”

    Shame on you Ricardo for finding humour in such a venomous article. The only thing I find funny about the article is when Owen states at the start “I am a bigot. How do I know? Because a friend told me. Why does he say that?” and when he goes on to say “I was saddened and confused by this viewpoint but I must confess not surprised”. At least his friend has more sense.
    I think you should be ashamed at finding that a article humourous. Most people that have seen the article have quite rightly condemned it.

    “Funny how your sense of humour seems to disappear when it suits you, eh YI?”

    My sense of humour disappears when I come across bigotry. It’s the same for most people.

    Amy M

    “Young Irelander, if your only proof that women are better off than men these days is an episode of ‘Friends’ I suggest you do a bit more reading and bit less watching TV”

    It’s not my only proof but it was one of the most popular shows in America which is why I mentioned it. The emasculation of man can be seen in practically every show out of America these days and in several TV ads.

    “And when men were becoming bigger men back in the days when John Wayne was their role model, who did women have to look up to? The little wife, tied by the apron strings to the kitchen? Would you like things to go back to the 50s?”

    I would argue that role models for women were a hell of alot better back then than they are now. Young girls nowadays are able to observe shows like Sex and the City and almost every Soap which shows women struggling to keep their clothes on!

    “These sorts of debates aren’t important to women just because they care where they can play golf. They are important because men have always enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the dominant position in society”

    Men don’t continue to enjoy the dominant position in society. Men are frowned upon when they try to be men these days.

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “You say ‘hate filled diatribe’, I say joke.

    Given that later in the article, he referred to the english as been ‘cross bred with iguanas’ are you still saying he was being serious?”

    Anyone who thinks this is a joke needs their head examined. It is bigotry. Pure and simple. If a person made these kind of comments in their place of work they would be fired on the spot.

    Here’s a selection of the comments:

    “Given the choice, however, between a ruling elite that have been crossbred with iguanas and listening to the beggars’ bullshit I must confess I’d go for the former every time”

    “Our purportedly “local” broadcasters set aside a full week of news time to cover the foul-mouthed outbursts and bad-tempered brawlings of one of Cork’s travelling community”

    “In all fairness being a psychotic gipsy can be a serious problem for a person. Roy was also probably concerned about his family. I’m told it’s been a tough few years for itinerant driveway tarmaccers”

    “Of course the most shocking thing about the Keane affair was the reaction of those fun-loving scamps, the beggar supporters”

    “Not entirely surprising that they supported an abusive and violent scumbag when you consider we’re talking about a country where dishonesty and casual criminality are often viewed as endearing national quirks”

    “Of course the most disgraceful piece of hubris and mendacity was the claim that the tinkers outplayed Spain. The Spanish (once again the beggars found themselves behind) had the ball in the net three more times and each effort was struck off, Mick’s multinationals equalising penalty came from a highly unconvincing foul on Niall Quinn”

    “The Republic and their fans were on the plane home with only their self-delusion and whatever they’d stolen from their Asian hosts to bring with them”

    Shame on you Ricardo for finding humour in such a venomous article. The only thing I find funny about the article is when Owen states at the start “I am a bigot. How do I know? Because a friend told me. Why does he say that?” and when he goes on to say “I was saddened and confused by this viewpoint but I must confess not surprised”. At least his friend has more sense.
    I think you should be ashamed at finding that a article humourous. Most people that have seen the article have quite rightly condemned it.

    “Funny how your sense of humour seems to disappear when it suits you, eh YI?”

    My sense of humour disappears when I come across bigotry. It’s the same for most people.

    Amy M

    “Young Irelander, if your only proof that women are better off than men these days is an episode of ‘Friends’ I suggest you do a bit more reading and bit less watching TV”

    It’s not my only proof but it was one of the most popular shows in America which is why I mentioned it. The emasculation of man can be seen in practically every show out of America these days and in several TV ads.

    “And when men were becoming bigger men back in the days when John Wayne was their role model, who did women have to look up to? The little wife, tied by the apron strings to the kitchen? Would you like things to go back to the 50s?”

    I would argue that role models for women were a hell of alot better back then than they are now. Young girls nowadays are able to observe shows like Sex and the City and almost every Soap which shows women struggling to keep their clothes on!

    “These sorts of debates aren’t important to women just because they care where they can play golf. They are important because men have always enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the dominant position in society”

    Men don’t continue to enjoy the dominant position in society. Men are frowned upon when they try to be men these days.

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “You say ‘hate filled diatribe’, I say joke.

    Given that later in the article, he referred to the english as been ‘cross bred with iguanas’ are you still saying he was being serious?”

    Anyone who thinks this is a joke needs their head examined. It is bigotry. Pure and simple. If a person made these kind of comments in their place of work they would be fired on the spot.

    Here’s a selection of the comments:

    “Given the choice, however, between a ruling elite that have been crossbred with iguanas and listening to the beggars’ bullshit I must confess I’d go for the former every time”

    “Our purportedly “local” broadcasters set aside a full week of news time to cover the foul-mouthed outbursts and bad-tempered brawlings of one of Cork’s travelling community”

    “In all fairness being a psychotic gipsy can be a serious problem for a person. Roy was also probably concerned about his family. I’m told it’s been a tough few years for itinerant driveway tarmaccers”

    “Of course the most shocking thing about the Keane affair was the reaction of those fun-loving scamps, the beggar supporters”

    “Not entirely surprising that they supported an abusive and violent scumbag when you consider we’re talking about a country where dishonesty and casual criminality are often viewed as endearing national quirks”

    “Of course the most disgraceful piece of hubris and mendacity was the claim that the tinkers outplayed Spain. The Spanish (once again the beggars found themselves behind) had the ball in the net three more times and each effort was struck off, Mick’s multinationals equalising penalty came from a highly unconvincing foul on Niall Quinn”

    “The Republic and their fans were on the plane home with only their self-delusion and whatever they’d stolen from their Asian hosts to bring with them”

    Shame on you Ricardo for finding humour in such a venomous article. The only thing I find funny about the article is when Owen states at the start “I am a bigot. How do I know? Because a friend told me. Why does he say that?” and when he goes on to say “I was saddened and confused by this viewpoint but I must confess not surprised”. At least his friend has more sense.
    I think you should be ashamed at finding that a article humourous. Most people that have seen the article have quite rightly condemned it.

    “Funny how your sense of humour seems to disappear when it suits you, eh YI?”

    My sense of humour disappears when I come across bigotry. It’s the same for most people.

    Amy M

    “Young Irelander, if your only proof that women are better off than men these days is an episode of ‘Friends’ I suggest you do a bit more reading and bit less watching TV”

    It’s not my only proof but it was one of the most popular shows in America which is why I mentioned it. The emasculation of man can be seen in practically every show out of America these days and in several TV ads.

    “And when men were becoming bigger men back in the days when John Wayne was their role model, who did women have to look up to? The little wife, tied by the apron strings to the kitchen? Would you like things to go back to the 50s?”

    I would argue that role models for women were a hell of alot better back then than they are now. Young girls nowadays are able to observe shows like Sex and the City and almost every Soap which shows women struggling to keep their clothes on!

    “These sorts of debates aren’t important to women just because they care where they can play golf. They are important because men have always enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the dominant position in society”

    Men don’t continue to enjoy the dominant position in society. Men are frowned upon when they try to be men these days.

  • WindsorRocker

    Many of you know me as a poster who is of a unionist persuasion but outside politics I play golf as my main sport and am a member of a links course on the north coast. I have read some of the contributions above and it seems very clear that many of you are looking at this from some sort of societal point of view rather than recognising that the issue of women in golf clubs is a SPORTING issue.

    As as a sporting issue, it is a fact in golf that men, in general, are better equipped to play the game.

    Men and women have separate tee boxes on each hole in golf and have separate pars for some holes.

    With equal membership rights come equal playing rights and that would be chaos in almost all golf clubs the length and breadth of Ireland.

    Due to their physical deficiencies women are slower golfers, apart from the small minority of talented lady golfers, than men. Trying to mix these two types of golfer would be a disaster for many clubs.

    Equal membership? OK, play off our tees, in our competitions and with our rules on slow play. Would ladies be prepared to handle this?

    As far as having a say in the running of the club, I would offer a couple of points.

    1. In our club, ladies have a say in house matters such as the bars and clubhouse design (but this would not be enough for strict definition of equal membership)
    2. The most important lady in our club, is the executive secretary who has been the backbone of our club for 20 odd years. But would I let her near a first tee at 10am on a Saturday morning. NO WAY JOSE!!

  • Ricardo

    God, Young Irelander, you’re a sensitive wee soul, aren’t you?

    Go and trawl a few man city forums for their opinion of Roy Keane. Bigotry or football banter?

    I wonder what terms of endearment are used on ROI forums for their Northern counterparts?

  • Roger

    Its hardly discrimination to ban women from a golf clud its just a means to get away from women for a short while.

    Martin Dub

    No the orange order has many female members.

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “God, Young Irelander, you’re a sensitive wee soul, aren’t you?”

    I find bigotry inexcusable.

    “Go and trawl a few man city forums for their opinion of Roy Keane. Bigotry or football banter?”

    Will they slag off my country there? Will they call Keane a “gypsy”? If you went to a football match and someone beside you kept shouting at a player and calling him a gypsy, would you be offended?

    “I wonder what terms of endearment are used on ROI forums for their Northern counterparts?”

    What do you mean by that? Are you saying two wrongs make a right?

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “God, Young Irelander, you’re a sensitive wee soul, aren’t you?”

    I find bigotry inexcusable.

    “Go and trawl a few man city forums for their opinion of Roy Keane. Bigotry or football banter?”

    Will they slag off my country there? Will they call Keane a “gypsy”? If you went to a football match and someone beside you kept shouting at a player and calling him a gypsy, would you be offended?

    “I wonder what terms of endearment are used on ROI forums for their Northern counterparts?”

    What do you mean by that? Are you saying two wrongs make a right?

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “God, Young Irelander, you’re a sensitive wee soul, aren’t you?”

    I find bigotry inexcusable.

    “Go and trawl a few man city forums for their opinion of Roy Keane. Bigotry or football banter?”

    Will they slag off my country there? Will they call Keane a “gypsy”? If you went to a football match and someone beside you kept shouting at a player and calling him a gypsy, would you be offended?

    “I wonder what terms of endearment are used on ROI forums for their Northern counterparts?”

    What do you mean by that? Are you saying two wrongs make a right?

  • Ricardo

    YI

    Nope, what I’m saying is that banter is part and parcel of football and you should treat it as such. This was on a football forum after all.

    And I know what your response is going to be, so don’t bother. Honestly, if an englishman posted on a forum his outrage at being accused of being half bred with an iguana, you and I would both laugh our heads off.

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “Nope, what I’m saying is that banter is part and parcel of football and you should treat it as such. This was on a football forum after all.”

    Perhaps if it was on a message board it could be explained but it is an article on the 2002 World Cup and is still up in the year 2005. I don’t think it can be passed off as purely “banter”.

    “Honestly, if an englishman posted on a forum his outrage at being accused of being half bred with an iguana, you and I would both laugh our heads off.”

    There wasn’t a serious attack on the English in the article. In fact, one of the comments he makes is that:

    “Given the choice, however, between a ruling elite that have been crossbred with iguanas and listening to the beggars’ bullshit I must confess I’d go for the former every time”

    It’s clear that the Irish are his main target. I’m surprised and disappointed that you’re defending this article which is a piece of trash in my eyes.

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “Nope, what I’m saying is that banter is part and parcel of football and you should treat it as such. This was on a football forum after all.”

    Perhaps if it was on a message board it could be explained but it is an article on the 2002 World Cup and is still up in the year 2005. I don’t think it can be passed off as purely “banter”.

    “Honestly, if an englishman posted on a forum his outrage at being accused of being half bred with an iguana, you and I would both laugh our heads off.”

    There wasn’t a serious attack on the English in the article. In fact, one of the comments he makes is that:

    “Given the choice, however, between a ruling elite that have been crossbred with iguanas and listening to the beggars’ bullshit I must confess I’d go for the former every time”

    It’s clear that the Irish are his main target. I’m surprised and disappointed that you’re defending this article which is a piece of trash in my eyes.

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “Nope, what I’m saying is that banter is part and parcel of football and you should treat it as such. This was on a football forum after all.”

    Perhaps if it was on a message board it could be explained but it is an article on the 2002 World Cup and is still up in the year 2005. I don’t think it can be passed off as purely “banter”.

    “Honestly, if an englishman posted on a forum his outrage at being accused of being half bred with an iguana, you and I would both laugh our heads off.”

    There wasn’t a serious attack on the English in the article. In fact, one of the comments he makes is that:

    “Given the choice, however, between a ruling elite that have been crossbred with iguanas and listening to the beggars’ bullshit I must confess I’d go for the former every time”

    It’s clear that the Irish are his main target. I’m surprised and disappointed that you’re defending this article which is a piece of trash in my eyes.

  • North Down Eye

    Golf Clubs need to lighten up …all this jackets on until someone says you can take it off is stuff from the dark ages

  • Davros

    Golf Clubs need to lighten up …all this jackets on until someone says you can take it off is stuff from the dark ages

    Let us know when Ireland leaves the dark ages 😉

  • Ricardo

    YI

    Do ‘Paddy Irishman’ jokes provoke a similar reaction from you?

    Anyway, I don’t want to take up any more of this thread. I’d be happy to continue this elsewhere, what do you reckon?

  • Sol

    Earlier we had posts claiming that jokes against ethnic communities were fine, Then a few posts claiming that to make jokes against another nation was not fine.
    Could someone define what is a joke and what is not? Is there a legal document outlining the parameters?

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “Do ‘Paddy Irishman’ jokes provoke a similar reaction from you?”

    Are you for real? You equate the bigotry shown in that article with ‘Paddy Irishman’ jokes?

    Sol

    “Earlier we had posts claiming that jokes against ethnic communities were fine, Then a few posts claiming that to make jokes against another nation was not fine.”

    I don’t think anyone claimed that “to make jokes against another nation was not fine”. Most people don’t mind jokes. What they do mind is bigoted remarks designed to get under the skin of others. I don’t think we need a legal document to tell us what a joke is.

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “Do ‘Paddy Irishman’ jokes provoke a similar reaction from you?”

    Are you for real? You equate the bigotry shown in that article with ‘Paddy Irishman’ jokes?

    Sol

    “Earlier we had posts claiming that jokes against ethnic communities were fine, Then a few posts claiming that to make jokes against another nation was not fine.”

    I don’t think anyone claimed that “to make jokes against another nation was not fine”. Most people don’t mind jokes. What they do mind is bigoted remarks designed to get under the skin of others. I don’t think we need a legal document to tell us what a joke is.

  • Young Irelander

    Ricardo

    “Do ‘Paddy Irishman’ jokes provoke a similar reaction from you?”

    Are you for real? You equate the bigotry shown in that article with ‘Paddy Irishman’ jokes?

    Sol

    “Earlier we had posts claiming that jokes against ethnic communities were fine, Then a few posts claiming that to make jokes against another nation was not fine.”

    I don’t think anyone claimed that “to make jokes against another nation was not fine”. Most people don’t mind jokes. What they do mind is bigoted remarks designed to get under the skin of others. I don’t think we need a legal document to tell us what a joke is.

  • Sol

    It’s a crazy world we’re living in these days. You can’t even make a joke any more as you’re offending an ethnic group!

    I agree with you 100% noone should offend any ethnic groups by poor taste jokes or other.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I was in a pub in Inchicore in Dublin a few years ago (the Black Lion, IIRC) which had a men-only area of the bar. I am not sure if that is still in force.

  • George

    The Black Lion ran into trouble with Italia 90 when loads of women were in the pub for the footie and kicked up a rumpus about not being allowed into the bar and having to stay in the lounge which is ten times larger.

    Last time I was there was around eight years ago with a girl and it was the elderly male customers not the staff who made such an issue about her presence in the bar and that surely she’d “be happier” in the lounge that we left for some peace.

  • garret

    “Golf Clubs need to lighten up …all this jackets on until someone says you can take it off is stuff from the dark ages”

    I thought it was until you toasted the Queen.

  • Ricardo

    YI

    The more of your comments I read, the less I am sure that you actually know what the word ‘bigotry’ means. You seem to just toss it up whenever something isn’t to your liking.

  • Young Irelander

    “The more of your comments I read, the less I am sure that you actually know what the word ‘bigotry’ means. You seem to just toss it up whenever something isn’t to your liking.”

    This coming from someone who regards Owen’s article as simply a “joke” and a bit of “banter”!

  • Young Irelander

    “The more of your comments I read, the less I am sure that you actually know what the word ‘bigotry’ means. You seem to just toss it up whenever something isn’t to your liking.”

    This coming from someone who regards Owen’s article as simply a “joke” and a bit of “banter”!

  • Young Irelander

    “The more of your comments I read, the less I am sure that you actually know what the word ‘bigotry’ means. You seem to just toss it up whenever something isn’t to your liking.”

    This coming from someone who regards Owen’s article as simply a “joke” and a bit of “banter”!

  • Sol

    what do you define as a joke?

  • Young Irelander

    “what do you define as a joke?”

    Something said in jest. Something designed to make people laugh.

  • Young Irelander

    “what do you define as a joke?”

    Something said in jest. Something designed to make people laugh.

  • Young Irelander

    “what do you define as a joke?”

    Something said in jest. Something designed to make people laugh.

  • cladycowboy

    No birdies here please

  • Joseyboy

    “Hockey is a sport for white men.Basketball is a sport for black men. Golf is a sport for white men dressed like black pimps” – Tiger Woods

    Mind you, someone round our way also says that golf is “little other than slow hurling for fat Protestants”

    It’s possibly half true but the moment we start taking GAA fanatics too seriously about anything one feels we’re in deep bother.

  • Dessertspoon

    I don’t see why restricting the membership rights or playing rights of women is in anyway justified. Many clubs have Men only playing times and Women only playing times which allows everyone to get peace and quiet from each other if that’s the thrust if the argument. I found the attiude of WindsorRocker pretty typical of the unionist male chauvanist point of view and fairly in step with members of my own club (tennis not golf). His opinions over ability are laughable – men are better that women at golf, they take too long to play and have to play off tees that are closer to the pin. In my experience women are not any slower round the course than men and, with a few notable exceptions, it is a fair point that women don’t hit the ball as far, that Windsor is why the tee is closer and is a rather pathetic reason to exclude women from a golf course.

    At my tennis club women are full members with all of the same rights as the men BUT the attitudes of many of the men towards the women can be embarrassing. Admittedly it is the attitudes of the men “of a certain age” but still it’s cringe worthy at times. Anytime social occassions are organised it is always the women who are expected to do the work (food, arrangements etc) “because they’re good at that sort of thing” except the summer BBQs – strictly men only. ( I try to buck this trend being a sensitive new age type 🙂 ) These men will always try to dominate the courts get rather upset at having to mix with women at anytime during the social mixed sessions, despite time having been set aside for male only interaction they obviously crave. Personally I prefer mixed doubles but then maybe I’m not struggling with issues surrounding repressed homosexuality in the way all of these men only club members are. (That was a joke – not a hatefilled diatribe)

  • michail darley

    WindsorRocker you have to be a plant. Surely you can’t be serious? I am still awestruck by the effortless chauvanism of:

    “Due to their physical deficiencies women are slower golfers”

    or the ante bellum hilarity of:

    “The most important lady in our club, is the executive secretary who has been the backbone of our club for 20 odd years. But would I let her near a first tee at 10am on a Saturday morning. NO WAY JOSE!!”

    But in addition to secretarial work there is always the abiltiy in your club to have a say…

    “…in house matters such as the bars and clubhouse design.”

    Have I woken up in 1955? Tell me it’s a dream.

  • bertie

    Roger

    I think that women do realise that men need sanctuary from them because they need sacntuary from men.

    I think that this is a difficult issue to resolve but as more and more barriers are being brought down the sexes are losing their respective sacntuaries.

    Or maybe the younger generation do not have this same need and its only us middle aged fogies who need to escape from the other sex from time to time.

  • Louis

    Jews have clubs (and professional organizations)that exclude non-Jews, African Americans do too (e.g. Jack and Jill); I see nothing wrong with a private golf club that wants to maintain an historical tradition of provideng men a with a comfortable, safe, estrogen free, male-bonding environment.

    Why can’t we just be blokes together on the fairway?

  • Bill McMillan

    How many swimming clubs have ladies only hours ? I do not see Niall Crowley off to stop this practise.

  • Bored

    The untermensch spides and the uber-bore golfers should all be sent to some sort of island off the coast of Albania and kept there.