Another mythconception…

ANOTHER myth exploded? An Orange lodge has produced a banner with William of Orange crossing the Boyne river on a brown horse, whereas it has been traditionally displayed as a white charger. These guys maybe have a greater sense of perspective than some other loyalists… anyone who ever saw a mural of the same scene would swear King Billy crossed the river on a Shetland pony, as he always seems to be about twice the size of the poor animal he sits on.

  • Davros

    Splendid – an appalling pun in the Newsletter headline!

  • Roger

    I believe that in fact Williams crossing of that particular river was horrendous and he in fact nearly drowned.

    I am curious to know what is the membership for the OO in NI as I have heard that it is declining.

  • headmelter

    It’s a big river, maybe Williams sphincter was as loose as some historians would lead us to believe.

  • scipio

    The normal image of King Billy is based on a revision of the standard iconography of St George and the Dragon – e.g. http://www.nga.gov/kids/ rogier/rogier6.htm – James is usually where the dragon would be.

  • fair_deal

    Roger

    OO membership is doing fine been – stable for a good while now with a boost of ytoung members during the Drumcree events.

  • Pat

    As in all myths around the world the tendancy has been to put the person that they see as good on a white charger and the the person they deem to be the bad guy on a black one. As for the truth about the Orange Order, well they are in decline and their numbers have fallen considerably since their 60s and 70s haydays. The ranks of their parades are swollen by drunken loyalist terrorists and their supporters simply out to celebrate their sectarian bigotry, and has today has nothing to do with the Boyne or the so called fight against religious persecution – given that the Orange Order (and their rules) are the ones inflicting the persecution on others. I wonder where William would stand on the acts of persecution and racism practised by the “Loyalist people” today?

  • dee st

    “OO membership is doing fine been – stable for a good while now with a boost of ytoung members during the Drumcree events.”

    Robert Young who was charged with murdering uvf crime boss Jim Johnson is a member of the Portadown lodge.He was convicted of arms charges a number of years ago,but this does not seem to have had any bearing on his right to remain within the order.

    He was often seen in the company of Billy Wright during the Drumcree stand offs.

    Is OO membership stable because they are happy to have the likes of Young within their ranks

  • Intelligence Insider

    Although not a member of the Orange Order I can verify the comment by fair_deal. Membership has increased since 1995 by a significant number. As for the comments by Pat and dee st, well one can clearly see their naked sectarianism shining through. Isn’t it strange that those who seek to impose on others a view that “orangeism” is sectarian only seem to show their own bigotry and sectarianism in the way they describe things. Given that the Prince of Orange carried a banner from the then pope one would think that roman catholics would also rejoice in the defeat of James and the victory of the Boyne.

  • George

    Intelligence Insider,
    maybe more and more are beginning to rejoice, considering the Irish government is spending 30 million euros on setting up the Boyne Heritage site.

    Hell, you could build two Lyric theatres for that.

  • Paul O

    Intelligence Insider,

    really – what difference does it make whether the Pope supported William? The OO preach bigotry today and that is why Catholics do not “rejoice in the defeat of James”. That and the fact that it happened in 1690 and nobody today cares!!

  • Roger

    Nobody today cares then explain what goes on at the 12th of July and if nobody cares why wont resident groups stop protesting.

    OO preach bigotry – care to explain this.

    Fair deal thanks for your information you dont happen to have any statistics,

  • Paul O

    Roger, Ive no problem with people celebrating their culture. But do you really think Catholics wouldnt be intimidated if they showed up at ‘the field’ to listen to 12th of July speeches? Their website states that the Order stands for ‘tolerance and compassion towards all’ and ‘the underlying principle of the Christian faith’. I would like to think I have similiar beliefs. Why do the speeches each year talk in such derogatory terms about the Catholic church, its members and its leader the Pope? Why are the 11th night bonfires such sectarian events? (Effegies of the Pope burning, the usual old songs chanted etc)

    Dont get me wrong – the Orange Order represents the culture of a large section of the community in the north, and will, and should have a future, but it should start living out the ideals of its creed. Religious liberty? It works both ways! If a Protestant felt their faith/way of life was threatened, I would stand beside them. I would expect the same from them.

  • Ricardo

    ‘But do you really think Catholics wouldnt be intimidated if they showed up at ‘the field’ to listen to 12th of July speeches?’

    What do you think goes on there? The couple of times I went as a kid ‘the field’ was full of oul boys getting 40 winks, that was about it.

  • Paul O

    When I went it was a bit different Ricardo!

  • Intelligence Insider

    Paul O, thanks for proving the point I stated in my previous post regarding people showing their own bigotry when tainting the OO as bigots. Roman Catholics are, were and always will be welcome to celebrate the “12th”.

    “Why do the speeches each year talk in such derogatory terms about the Catholic church, its members and its leader the Pope?”

    As an organisation representing the reformed faith the OO abides by the Westminster confession of faith which states that the pope is the anti-christ. I’d like to know what speech or speeches you refer to which were derogatory to members of the Roman catholic church though, to be honest I think you are just telling lies.

  • Paul O

    I dont know how Ive helped you prove that point Intelligence Insider. Did you read my posts?

  • Intelligence Insider

    “really – what difference does it make whether the Pope supported William? The OO preach bigotry today and that is why Catholics do not “rejoice in the defeat of James”. That and the fact that it happened in 1690 and nobody today cares!!”

    Did you read them yourself??????

  • Roger

    The OO preach bigotry – Explain this please.

    Paul O I think you will find that the 12th of July is one of the only times protestants can express their culture. Today I turned on the radio in my car and on every NI or Irish station I listed to was endless coverage of the Gaelic, if protestants can tolerate so much gaelic why can’t catholics tollerate the 12th of July celebrations.

  • Joseyboy

    Roger

    I’m not a Gaelic/Irish language speaker or supporter or a nationalist but I’m sorry, this isn’t about trading off your toleration (why do you make it sound like tolerance entails expending any enegery or surrendering anything precious to you ? it doesn’t)for someoene else’s.

    There is no equivalence between the irish language and Orangeism in this context and to introduce any such equivalence is purely mischieveous as well you’re aware.

    Only bone-headed eejits are offended by the articulation of everyday words and phrases in a different language, whether Irish, Greek, Iraqi or Swedish.

    Orangeism is an affront to a decent society and frequently parades it in a provocative manner in places where the tolerance of this provocation is at its lowest. The OO is exclusively Protestant and contends that the Protestant unionist way of life is superior to that of others, in particular that of Irish Catholics, and is fully supportive of modes of expression and policitcal structures which further embed that superiority and subjugation.

    As such and by definition cannot be considered as other than a bigotted supremacist organization, this isn’t a label which is being thrust upon it, it’s the readily observable fact of the matter.Which is why it should also be opposed by right-thinking people of any creed or none, as indeed it already is.

    I also object to you drawing some short-hand form of equivalence between Orangeism and Protestant culture. Orangeism is exclusvely Protestant, Protestanism is very very far from exclusively Orange. Let’s remember that.

    Thanks.

  • Roger

    I did not compare the OO and the Irish language I stated that protestants are mover tolerant of Gaelic sports that Catholics are of Orange events.

    An example would be in Fermanagh there were endless complaints about union jacks being displayed in the protestant estate of Derrychara. However when Gaelic flag were put up throughout the entirety of Enniskillen includding many businesses many protestants simply accepted possibly because they had no other option and also becuase of more tolerance.

  • Joseyboy

    Roger

    Can you please describe the flag to which you refer, is it the Fermanagh county colours ? if so what bothers you about it ? And why are you confusing tolerance with people who feel they ‘have no option’ ? That’s nsot the type of tolerance we need or should be aiming for here.

    There you go again with the equivalence thing, people have little or no reason to be intolerant of Gaelic sports or club or county colours, catholics and others among us have plenty to be intolerant about in terms of Orangeism as it renders us and makes great play of celebraing it’s position of supremacy over us and its attempts to further cement and consolidate that position of supremacy.

    Different, see.

  • cladycowboy

    Roger,

    ‘I stated that protestants are mover tolerant of Gaelic sports that Catholics are of Orange events.’

    I would like to, on behalf of many Gaelic players and fans like myself, to humbly thank you for your tolerance in allowing these fixtures to go ahead this day.
    May your tolerance be a shining beacon to us Gaelic fans throughout the island…

  • Ricardo

    Cladycowboy

    When you consider that the GAA have a rather distasteful penchant for naming clubs and competitions after murderers and other sundry criminals, the fact that this practice still continues unabated in Northern Ireland shows a degree of tolerance wouldn’t you say? Certainly when you compare it to the flap that some posters got into over people bringing Northern Ireland flags to Northern Ireland games.

  • cladycowboy

    Ricardo

    No idea what you are on about with NI flags. Never discussed this personally.

    The GAA has named grounds after Irelands patriots. You call them murderers. Most Nations patriots, Gandhi apart, have killed people. George Washington, oh and every second street in England called Cromwell Street after the Lord Protector or as you would suggest, no doubt, mass murderer.

    I trust there will be no duplicity in your recognition of murderer and the respect Sporting Associations or Governments give them post-humously

  • Ricardo

    CC

    I’m not really interested in discussing the wrongs and rights of this practice. But you’d agree that to a lot of people, it’s extremely offensive?

  • cladycowboy

    ‘I’m not really interested in discussing the wrongs and rights of this practice. But you’d agree that to a lot of people, it’s extremely offensive?’

    You don’t want to discuss it but you’d like me to agree that its offensive?

    Offensive to whom? Like i said, the stadiums and some clubs are named after Irelands patriots. In order for lots of people to get to some stadiums named after these patriots, they may have to walk along several streets and bridges named after various members of a foreign royal family. You have to look far to find offense in these circumstances

  • Ricardo

    Ok, so when Johnny Adair FC starts up next year, you’ll be fine with that? catch yourself on.

  • cladycowboy

    Who am i to stop a group of people from playing under a banner that they find best serves their identity. Is Adair a big follower of soccer?

  • Davros

    You don’t want to discuss it but you’d like me to agree that its offensive?

    Be nice CC- you aren’t that dim, that’s NOT what he said.

  • Ricardo

    ‘Who am i to stop a group of people from playing under a banner that they find best serves their identity. Is Adair a big follower of soccer? ‘

    If you could tolerate that, fair play. I’d find it distasteful to say the least, and given the fractious society we live in, you’d hope that people would afford their neighbours some respect and not engage in practices like this.

    But this is getting seriously off topic

  • cladycowboy

    Adair FC might have similar problems to the present English side. Not a natural left-footer in sight… 🙂

  • cladycowboy

    Ricardo,

    I can understand the view that you are projecting. However, offering mssr Adair as a comparison is not really tenable. Do you personally or friends of yours object to a GAA club being named after Robert Emmet? There is a club in London named as such. This hasn’t raised any offence in the population, which should be more directly offended if any was taken.
    I don’t take offence walking to the Irish embassy in London sited on Cromwell Rd, surely i should…?

  • Ricardo

    CC Not all the historical figures are as historical as robert emmett. Indeed, the immediate families of the vicims of some of these patriots are still around today. It can’t be very pleasant for them, seeing their loved one’s killers glorified in such a way.

  • maca

    Ricardo: “the GAA have a rather distasteful penchant for naming clubs and competitions after murderers …. shows a degree of tolerance wouldn’t you say?”

    CC: “The GAA has named grounds after Irelands patriots”

    I can’t think of any clubs named after murderers, but certainly one particular tournament does spring to mind, Ricardo does have a point there.
    But also, the GAA haven’t exactly been tolerated have they? They have faced their fair share of abuse by both loyalists & security forces over the years.

  • cladycowboy

    Before anyone else gets there! The embassy is on Brompton rd which is accessible by Cromwell rd.

  • Davros

    CC – were you not around when we discussed St Teresa’s GAA club in Loughmacrory ? Or the new Belfast GAA club Cumann na Fuiseoige’s badge and Bobby Sands ?

  • cladycowboy

    ‘Indeed, the immediate families of the vicims of some of these patriots are still around today.’

    This indeed would be hurtful to the direct family members. To be honest, i don’t know which examples that you allude to but it seems that maca recognises one.
    The vast majority are not named in these circumstances.
    The Papacy bestowed peace venerations on Margaret Thatcher. An affront to many, myself and Welsh miners included. Still, it hasn’t stopped most Catholics in these islands from supporting their faith

  • maca

    cc, the only one I can think of is the Maíréad Farrell Camogie Tournament.

  • cladycowboy

    I wasn’t around for that Davros. Just out of interest, were there any Dutch/Boer players plying their trade with Liverpool FC around the time of the naming of their fine stand?

  • Davros

    No idea about Liverpool FC in the early 20th century – there are people around who are survivors / relatives of victims of the IRA of Bobby Sands,Gerard Harte and Martin Harte’s time.

  • cladycowboy

    I wasn’t aware that Mairead Farrell had a conviction for murder. I may be wrong.

  • cladycowboy

    So by definition, it would be fine to name clubs/stadia after these people after the relatives affected have themselves died?

  • maca

    CC
    “I wasn’t aware that Mairead Farrell had a conviction for murder. I may be wrong. “

    I don’t know, but anyway she was PIRA.

  • Roger

    Can you please describe the flag to which you refer, is it the Fermanagh county colours ? if so what bothers you about it ?

    The people whom put up these ‘fermanagh colours’ took exception when the union jack were displayed in certain parts of Enniskillen so wheres the two way tolerance there.

    There you go again with the equivalence thing, people have little or no reason to be intolerant of Gaelic sports or club or county colours, catholics and others among us have plenty to be intolerant about in terms of Orangeism as it renders us and makes great play of celebraing it’s position of supremacy over us and its attempts to further cement and consolidate that position of supremacy.

    Different, see.

    No I do not see. What the OO in NI does is to promote the union between great Britain and NI as well as promoting protestanism. You are quite correct Some catholics are extremely intolerant of anything protestant in NI.

    I would like to, on behalf of many Gaelic players and fans like myself, to humbly thank you for your tolerance in allowing these fixtures to go ahead this day.
    May your tolerance be a shining beacon to us Gaelic fans throughout the island…

    Hi Rhinestone

    I hope you are as equally tolerant to my culture when the marching season begins!!!

  • maca

    Roger
    “The people whom put up these ‘fermanagh colours’ took exception when the union jack were displayed in certain parts of Enniskillen so wheres the two way tolerance there.”

    Erm … bit of a difference between Fermanagh colours and the Union Flag, if it was the Irish Tricolour you’d have a point.

  • davidbrew

    “I can understand the view that you are projecting. However, offering mssr Adair as a comparison is not really tenable. Do you personally or friends of yours object to a GAA club being named after Robert Emmet?”

    I “personally take offence” at the naming of Dungiven GAA club after Kevin Lynch, hunger striker and IRA member whose gang (amongst other things) killed people including a policeman whose family are known to me, and set off bombs in my town which damaged my house and hurt my friends. I’m not much happier when the clubhouse is used by Sinn Fein to host Gerry and Martin’s election roadshow, as has happened in the past, when I consider their history. But perhaps I have a strange misunderstanding of sport as …er …only a game? Why does noone from the GAA see anything reprehensible about this type of thing, I wonder?

    The Adair comparison is perfectly apt, and your feeble attempt to justify this obnoxious practice shows that you know it. And as it happens, unless Robert Emmet was a top player, why name a club after him anyway? Ah yes, he was “a patriot”, who- natch- had to unfortunately kill a few people in his enthusiasm for the ould cause.

    Funny how everywhere EXCEPT Ireland recognises that politics should be kept out of sport, while here its compulsory. Isn’t your sport good enough to stand on its own two feet without adding politics to the mix? Even certain Scottish football teams make an effort to distance themselves from their religious antecedents

  • maca

    David
    There’s a big difference between Robert Emmett and the likes of Kevin Lynch. It might be no harm to try and understand that.
    And you’re wrong if you think no-one in the GAA finds the naming of GAA clubs after terrorists deplorable.

    “Funny how everywhere EXCEPT Ireland recognises that politics should be kept out of sport, while here its compulsory”

    Ever hear of Cromwell Golf Club?
    I don’t find that offensive but perhaps I should by your rationale.

  • barney

    As usual here on Slugger, a thread set up to debate Orange culture is taken over entirely about by a lively discussion on the GAA. It’s a symptom of a dead, or dying, way of life giving way to a more vibrant and tolerant form of cultural experience. Under other circumstances I’d say it was a sad sight but as it’s the OO that’s dying then so be it. Orangeism should never have survived the rush of blood to the head responsible for it’s original formation. The fact that it continued for so long speaks volumes about the hollowness of the planter identity. The fact that it’s last remaming acolytes can’t even bring themselves to promote it but choose instead to attack something that is thriving and in rude good health speaks volumes about their hopes for the fututre.

  • davidbrew

    Dream on Barney.

    The reason that this thread has been diverted is the usual paranoid fear Nationalists have against orangeism has provoked a plethora of xenophobic rantings from people who just can’t accept that there is a different type of irishness. perhaps in a few years we’ll hear how black people in Ballymun aren’t really Irish either (even if they have to learn a cupla focal in primary school to get a job in the civil service).

    You’re the ones with the problem mate- cos we’re still going to be around in 2090.

    No maca, never heard of thatgolf club, but then golf isn’t really a sport is it? I’m glad you see how wrong it is to name a GAA club after a terrorist ( are you alone in that BTW?)

    Emmet may be less offensive in the sense that I expect the relatives of his victims have had time to get over his mad rebellion, but even if he had been a tree hugger without equal i still don’t think those who differ from him politically should be potentially deterred from playing a sport because of irrelevant political baggage.

    I keep asking- why is there no hurling club named after Carson – who introduced the sport to trinity? Could it be because the GAA couldn’t stomach such a connection, given its political agenda?

  • barney

    davidbrew,

    You couldn’t even finish one posting on the Orange without the GAA to prop you up. Where would ‘orange culture’ be without Footbal and Hurling? As for a Carson GAA club, feel free to found one yourself anytime. The GAA leave the naming of clubs to the communities who set them up.

  • maca

    David
    Whether or not you heard of that golf club or not it’s irrelevant, it still disproves your point. It seems you lads do this sort of thing too. 😉

  • martin

    Unionist family,

    By the way that red hand of ulster emblem you use –you stole it from the o’neils-who were Irish rebels.

    the significance of the red hand comes form days of old.2 of the O’neils were claiming to be the rightful king of ulster–it was decided that a boat race would decide who would be king and the first to put his hand on the far bank of a river would be king–the fellow that was being beaten wanted the job so much that he cut off his hand and flung it onto the opposite bank of the river-I believe it was the Bann.

  • cladycowboy

    Rodger,

    ‘I hope you are as equally tolerant to my culture when the marching season begins!!!’

    It seems maca put you straight about the flag issue. As far as i can tell you’re tolerance of GAA sports was merely not smashing your radio when you heard match coverage on it. I presume you weren’t held hostage at Casement park and forced to watch it.
    I’d be equally if not more tolerant of your ‘culture’ if my experiences of Orange marches was merely hearing them on the radio, march all the year round if thats the case lads! Nationalists only object to marches going through streets where no-one wants to watch them or hear the music, oh and when they’re held hostage in their homes.
    I’ll tolerate your culture on the radio and not by my house. Unless, you allowed the Fermanagh GAA to train in your backyard of course! In which case you really are more tolerant than me