Lack of political support hampering Catholic recruitment

The big story of the day has got to be the Oversight Commissioner‘s report, in which he cites the lack of political support is a major factor in holding back Catholic recruitment for the third report in a row. Despite nearly 15,000 applications, Catholic membership is still only 18%. Fear of intimidation is blamed over any other factor.

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    “Fear of intimidation is blamed over any other factor.”

    Come on Gerry, give the people what they want. Let us know if you think it’s right for young Catholics to be intimidated out of joining the police.

  • Fraggle

    I wouldn’t join the police, not because of any intimidation but because I would be working with the people who did things like smashing my head with a truncheon a few years back.

    A lot of us just don’t trust the police.

    The Patton recomendations are a useful start but there seems to be a attitude amongst many in the police and unionist community that there was no problem in the first place.

  • Davros

    I wouldn’t join the police, not because of any intimidation but because I would be working with the people who did things like smashing my head with a truncheon a few years back.

    Can you see why some Unionists have a problem with working with Republicans who did things like ( insert as appropriate) a few years back ?

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    I’m under no illusions that there weren’t any problems, just that like most things in this country, they do tend to get exaggerated out of all proportion so that when it comes to individual stories it’s hard to work out what’s real “brutality” and what’s some shit-stirrer doing down the police because it’s the good republican thing to do.

  • peteb

    Worth highlighting this section from the RTE report on the Oversight Commissioner’s report

    “He has revealed that 114 out of a total of 175 recommendations contained in the Patten Report for overhauling policing in the North have been completed in the last four years.”

  • fair_deal

    “unionist community that there was no problem in the first place.”

    Some Unionists have had problems with the police for a long time, I’m one of them. I sometimes get the impression that nationalists have a perception that Unionist areas are well policed. One of the things that nationalist acceptance of policing will lead to is the discovery of the crummy level of service that passes for policing.

  • aquifer

    Where there is a police force, there will be bullies brutes and bigots among them, but that is not particular to Northern Ireland.

    There are also a majority of helpful, principled, often brave, often wounded, men and women in most police forces in these islands. I would be surprised if the PSNI were not becoming among the best in the world, if only due recent thorough reforms and the lack of competition from other local employers for talent.

    Who needs catholic policemen? Young catholic men and boys in areas of deprivation who too often have few useful male role models accessible to them, and who fall too easily to crime.

  • Jo

    Funnily enough I havent had my head smashed in by a truncheon as I make my way back and forward to work.

    However a few months ago I was attacked – mugged in fact – and the police were nothing other than sympathetic and helpful. Had a police officer truncheoned me, I might have had a problem with joining the PSNI. Then again, I might consider the circumstances in which that happened.

  • Jo

    Pete, Thanks…does that report indicate what has yet to be done?

  • peteb

    It’s not clear on those, jo.. apart from the items specifically mentioned in the press.. we’ll probably have to wait for the Commissioner’s report to be available online for more details.

  • raff

    A sizable proportion of the people here would have a problem with the ‘policing’ here. The RIC/RUC was designed to be used by the unionist controllers to maintain the status quo, (no not the cheesy group!),

    Many people who have been the victim of ‘ordinary crime’ meaning not related to the conflict here have found the RUC unwilling/unable to carry out any meaningful investigation into the crime. The RUC’s web site at one stage kept statistics on crimes resolved – needles to say, car crime, burglary, etc were way down the list.

    Also many crimes related to the conflict were not dealt with. This leaves a legacy of a partisan and inept force, which many, especially those within the nationalist community would be very reluctant to join, (regardless of any OK from Sinn Fein).

  • Davros

    The RIC/RUC was designed to be used by the unionist controllers

    The RIC is a lot older than Unionism.

  • jocky

    What do people expect from a police force? They spend the vast majority of their time stopping idiots beat the crap out of each other. Head cracking is part of their job, tends to attract a certain type of person.

    Does the RM movement expect an acceptable police force to drop out the sky? How do they expect it to be formed if take no part in it? (Not all by a sizeable majority) And why do they expect Unionists to do it when they dont take any responsibility for it, apart form sniping from the sides.

  • raff

    OK Davros,

    The RIC/RUC was designed to be used by the British/unionist controllers. Feel better?

    The point I was trying to make is that policing problems in this part of the world have been around for a long time. Police in Ireland have been designed along the lines of controlling the nationalist people and to maintain British/unionist rule in Ireland.

  • mick hall

    It will probably take decades for the PSNI to be sorted out and even then some will refuse to give it allegiance. Up until the late 1960s almost all US police forces were deeply racist, the reason being US society was racist. Gradually as it became less socially acceptable to be a nasty bigot, the leadership of the police got to grips with this problem. The bigots were either weeded out or eventually reached retirement age. If the Peace Process continues slowly inching forward, as it must if violence is not to return, im certain the same thing will happen in the north.

    Within a decade or so no serving office will have had any operational experience of the ‘troubles’. If this is coupled with the normalization of life in the north, then I see no reason why the police there will not be seen in much the same way as in the rest of western europe. i e, a body we wish to avoid but welcome their presence at times of need, like the police everywhere they are never going to be loved.

    If the IRA is stood down and Republicans return to government, as is their right, then for this process of acceptance of the PSNI to be accelerated, the introduction of quoters may have to be considered. myself I feel the two governments should give greater thought to the issue of policing, as for Republicans all else hinges on it. For example the fact that the RUC special branch all but institutionally colluded with both loyalist and republican paramilitaries, was an abomination that needs to be publicly exposed. Myself I would be very wary of giving any support to a police service which has amongst its ranks men and women who were party to such collusion. If this is brushed under the counter the UK state will undoubtedly repeat the same mistakes again, if they are not already doing so in Iraq. I suppose what im saying is the stables needs cleaning, im not talking about a witch hunt but early grazing into retirement for some.

  • Jo

    Raff: Part of the problem is that, while there has been a political element in the job of the polcie for a long time now, they have a dual role in that they have “ordinary decent crime” to contend with as well!

    Two hats, rather than two faces?

    How well ODC can be dealt with OUTSIDE civilian policing we have seen rather too clearly in kneecappings, punishment beatings and shootings. I know which system I prefer.

  • Davros

    raff – I don’t think it was as uniformly (geddit? ) simple as you make out. Certainly I’ll not argue with your drift in respect of the 20th century, but, from what I can see, the politicising of policing wasn’t as big an issue for most of the 19th century.

  • Jo

    Davros…groaaannnnnnnnnn!

  • Davros

    Glad to see you ‘copped on’ to my little joke Jo 😉

  • Alan2

    Any time I see them they are hiding behind a bush with a speed camera. Tey are no different to the police on the mainland. some nice people, some bigots and generally useless altogether.

  • raff

    Certainly with the passage of time less and less officers will have any experience of ‘policing a conflict’.

    However, I would imagine that as long as certain things exist, the ties with the Orange Order, Freemasonry, paramilitaries, etc, that certain attitudes and practices would remain.

    I have to agree with Mick Hall a good clean out is needed. Re: Special Branch, many of them were absorbed into different areas of the police force. If a new era is to begin then there MUST be a concerted effort to get rid of the dead wood, rotten apples, etc. I also believe that those responsible for collusion or ANY infringement of the law MUST be held accountable and properly punished for their crimes.

    I fully believe that to move forward this is a major issue that will have to be addressed but, new names and Patton (regardless if it is fully implemented) is no where near enough. People continually call for PIRA men to be held accountable, the same has to apply to the RUC.

    Davros – don’t give up the day job!!

  • Jo

    Raff:

    “Re: Special Branch, many of them were absorbed into different areas of the police force.”

    Isn’t one of the main complaints, though, that the SB expertise has been lost to the force? I would have assumed, from that criticism, that SB was well represented amongst those leaving completely.

  • George

    Jo,
    “Funnily enough I havent had my head smashed in by a truncheon as I make my way back and forward to work.”

    This is too close to the dreadful “if you don’t do anything wrong you’ve nothing to fear” statements trotted out by so many.

    The fact is that you stand a good chance of getting your head smashed in if you question authority, regardless of whether you are in the right or not.

    They don’t tend to bash those who quietly acquiesce, even if those who go to work and do nothing are in the wrong.

    For example, I’ve seen people seriously bashed for peacefully demonstrating against the imposition of the third-land rule on asylum seekers by the EU, for demonstrating against the wastefulness of an Olympic bid, for demonstrating for the right to choose on abortion.

    As for Special Branch “expertise”, is this group not the same bunch who happily set up people to be exjudicially murdered by death squads.

    When they were called “a force within a force”, it wasn’t meant as a compliment.

    Raff,
    we don’t need to keep that kind of “experience” in a police force and if we do why not simply hire a load of paramilitaries.

  • Jo

    George,
    a far enough point, I was just *struck* (groan!) by the similarity in my experience and that of Fraggle above and how we related it to rather different experiences of the police.

  • martin

    There is no such thing as a perfect police force any where in the world–Roddney King springs immediately to mind,however that does not mean that we cant aim high.

    As someone who has one parent coming from the province of Munster and the other from Ulster,and having travelled the length and breath of this island and lived in both parts of it for a sizeable portions of my life,—still have strong northern accent–I can honestly say that I would prefer to meet an RUC/PSNI man any day rather than a garda, and I am a Republican

    The rotten apples in the Northern force should be weeded out–this could be done a lot quicker if Sinn Fein joined the policing partnership-the Mc Cartney saga provides an ideal opportunity to join up for the good of all the northern people,since Sinn Fein has no objections to nationalists recognising the Psni or co-operating with their enquiries why not just sign up altogether.Sinn Fein view the GFA as a stepping stone to a United Ireland and to use its provisions to make the 6 counties a better place for nationalists by bringing about changes from the inside–the Assembly,cross border institutions,ministerial posts—why the big deal about the police,why not change that from the inside also.

    The transfer proceedures for garda joining the psni ,i think they even go up one rank when they make the switch,needs to be stopped, you dont get rid of the problem of former special branch collusional murderers,bad apples,corrupt people bigotts; by replacing them with similar ilk from the south

  • raff

    George, I was completely behind your post, that is until the end. Of course we don’t want Special Branch! I was complaining that many of the Branch are still lurking within the RUC. Good God man, don’t give paramilitaries a bad name by lumping them in with that lot! Also it is important to remember that it is not only the Branch that are involved in murder and collusion, officers from right across the RUC are involved in it. And that is a large part of the problem, if it was just the Branch then these people could all be identified and appropriate action taken, however as the rot runs much deeper it would be extremely difficult for a group of Catholic/Nationalist/whatever officers or Sinn Feinners on the DPP’s to root it out. Let’s face it when the Steven’s enquiry faced so much opposition how do you think the others would fair?

    Martin, some very valid points re: replacing RUC with Garda. However you attempt to say that by Sinn Fein joining the policing boards it would lead to the rotten apples being taken out earlier. But SF would have no power/authority to weed out the undesirables is that not one of their problems with the DPP’s?

    “Sinn Fein views the GFA as a stepping stone” that does not mean they are right! M. Collins thought the treaty with Britain was a stepping stone!

  • Jo

    Raff:
    Either you are right and SB are still there “somewhere” in the PSNI or else others are right when they saw that the police have been castrated by the loss of the SB expertise.
    Which is it? Don’t forget that thousands have left. This wouldn’t be some sort of argument that the whole force is corrupt and compromised, now, would it?

  • martin

    Raff,

    m.collins was killed at Beal Na Blath before his stepping stones ideas could be put into practice when W.T Cosgrave took over as president of the executive council of the Irish Free State the republican ideals of Collins were thrown out the window and so were any attempt at achieving Irish unity–hence the 1924 Army mutiny,which appart from being about former British soldiers getting preferential treatment as regards promotions and positions,over former pro-treaty IRA men,was also an attempt to get the Cosgrave government back to Collins stepping stones theories–they failed.

    When de valera came to power in 1932 he implemented a watered down version of Collins stepping stones ideas and mixed it with his document no.2 of treaty debate fame, the result was -external assoiation,removal of oath of allegiance to king,dongrading of governor generals office,and eventual removal with the 1937 constitution,

    the Anglo-Irist treaty of 1921 gave republican Ireland in 26 counties–more than home rule but less than full independence.

    the 1937 constitution made Free State almost a republic–De Valera went much further than Cosgrave ever dared but much less than collins planned too, his ideas were never put into practice—todays Irish republic is not what the men of Easter 1916 fought for nor is it the dominion that Arthur GRIFFITH or Cosgrave would have been more than happy with, it is a hybrid of both Home Rule and Republican ideals.

  • Ringo

    it is a hybrid of both Home Rule and Republican ideals

    You make it sound like a bad thing.

    Idealists (including religious fundamentalists) have failed the people of this island on all sides for centuries. Anything that is good about living here has stemmed from the pragmatism of the likes of Collins equally many numerous civil servants – and hopefully similar benefits will accrue from his from his (dare I say it…) modern day Unionist equivalent, Trimble. [*runs for cover*]

  • martin

    Ringo,

    didn’t intend it to sound like a bad thing,if anything it turned out to be more inclusive-my thinking is that one should aim high and if you get aprox 80% OF what you set out to achieve then mission was a success-For example Sinn Fein want to achieve a thirty two county socialist republic,if in time Irish unity is brought about through a border poll under the terms of the G.F.A, That would be enough for me ,im not really a socialist in the far left sense-a fairer society,with the 7,000 homless people on our streets being cared for,and a fairer tax system for all workers,and a fairer health system instead of the two tier system in the south ,and better education facilities—,more help for the elderly and disabled and affordable housing would be about as much Socialism as i would like to see—would not like Ireland to become Castro’s Cuba mark 2.my point–a united Ireland that fell between Sinn Fein’s and SDLP’S long term aspirations would be a good thing

  • Davros

    Sinn Fein view the GFA as a stepping stone to a United Ireland and to use its provisions to make the 6 counties a better place for nationalists by bringing about changes from the inside–the Assembly,cross border institutions,ministerial posts

    The wheel has turned full circle then – the provo’s were born beause the stickies were left wing – which brought the RC Hierarchy on board – and believed in the “stages theory” – which could just as easily be called “stepping stones” – with a dash of sectarianism because of the influence of Dr Roy Johnston, who was ,shock horror , a prod.

  • raff

    Martin

    I am not too sure what you are telling me. Are you saying I was wrong to suggest that the theory of SF’s that the GFA is a stepping stone? That IS what they say and I do not feel that this is true, especially as it appears that every time there is a possibility for advancement, from out of the ether comes various allegations which are then reported as true, thus causing another crisis in the process. This then continues unabated for awhile, slowly fading without any of the allegations proven, continually pushing any resolution further away.

    Now that we have the Good Dr wielding a larger portion of the Unionist power base we can bet that the hope of any settlement is as far away as ever.

    I have to say I wouldn’t mind living in your Ireland, although I can’t see that happening anytime soon, going by current standards.

    Jo “sort of argument that the whole force is corrupt” Of course it is! You would have to be extremely naive to think otherwise. That is the problem with it. That is why nationalists (as opposed to republicans) still do not find it acceptable. Unless it is rectified and the thugs, murderers and liars, etc are exposed, fired and dealt with, it would be foolhardy for anyone to get involved with it be no matter what political ideology they hold.

    Those that do not learn from history…………

  • Martin Dub

    ” Anything that is good about living here has stemmed from the pragmatism of the likes of Collins equally many numerous civil servants – and hopefully similar benefits will accrue from his from his (dare I say it…) modern day Unionist equivalent, Trimble. [*runs for cover*]”

    Ringo, I think your giving Collins too much credit there. He was an out and out Republican, and many believe he would have used the Free State Army to get a United Ireland if he had too! Just because his political successors are perceived as being pro-Brits, doesn’t mean Collins can be tarred with te same brush.

  • martin

    RAFF,

    No i wasn’t trying to tell you that Sinn Fein don’t regard the GFA as a stepping stone to Irish unity–you are right they do—I just got the impression from your example of M. Collins and the 1921 Treaty that you viewed any attempt to use the GFA AS A stepping stone in a similar way that m.collins intended to use the treaty as doomed to similar failure—my point was that collins seeing in the treaty–not the ultimate freedom that all nations aspire to but the freedom to achieve it———-was never proved false, Collins was killed before he ever got a real chance to follow through his plans–in my view he was succeded by traitors ,who executed 77 republicans and scrapped any of Collins,s planns to expand on what he could gain from the treaty,
    w.t COSGRAVE took part in the 1916 rising then for the remainder of the 1916-21 war of independence remained an arm-chair general along with Kevin o’ Higgins who took no part in either 1916 or 1919-21 other than wear a uniform and help Cosgreave out at his ministery of local government,these men went on to execute 77 anti-treatyite republicans–with the help of the current minister of Justice’s incompetent grandfather they messed up the boundary commission and sold their states interests in the 6 counties under the terms of the 1926 -secret-Ultimate Financial Agreement.

    COLLINS IDEAS DIDNT FAIL THEY WERE JUST NEVER TRIED

  • Comrade Stalin

    “I also believe that those responsible for collusion or ANY infringement of the law MUST be held accountable and properly punished for their crimes.”

    I realize this will sound a lot like whataboutery, but one of the problems is that a lot of people in our society think that people should not be held accountable or properly punished for their crimes. Indeed there are calls for an amnesty for people who are presently on the run over suspicion of having committed a crime.

    I’d be happy to settle for controls to help it ever happening again, and to spot it in case it ever does. In the case of the police, I believe Patten creates a satisfactory framework for that to become a reality. I wish I could say the same about the paramilitaries.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Raff :

    “Unless it is rectified and the thugs, murderers and liars, etc are exposed, fired and dealt with, it would be foolhardy for anyone to get involved with it be no matter what political ideology they hold.”

    I’ve deliberately lifted that paragraph out of context. It applies across the board in our society – to political parties, paramilitary groups, governmental bodies and so on. Not just the police. The way to make it happen is not by boycotting or snubbing, but by dialogue and active participation.

  • MARTIN

    MARTIN DUB,

    Yes your right with regards to Collins,a lot of peoples opinions of him are based on the film starring Liam Neeson–it was a good film as regards hollywood standards-but it was almost the most historically incorrect film ever made—Ned Broy Collins g-man in the castle was not killed by the british he died in 1975–good men Padear Clancy,Dick MC Kee and Connor Clune were tortured and killed in the most barbaric fasion as a reprisal for the 21 November 1920 bloody Sunday killings carried out by Collins squad, the Croagh Park massacre did take place but was carried out using rifles not machine gun and the car bomb had yet to be invented.

    Anyway more to the point Collins sent weapons to the Northern IRA devisions –after the treaty–with the intention of overthrowing Craigs statlet—The famous Pettigo incident where a five hour gun battle occurred between Ira men and british as late as june 1922 and the assassination of field marshal Sir Henry Wilson in London probably on Collins orders-wilson was Craigs top security adviser.There is no way that Collins would have accepted the 26 county Free State as final,and incidently he was investigating Kevin o’higgins background as a possible British mole just before he died in August 1922.

  • Davros

    How does the Craig Collins agreement sit with your version of history Martin ?

  • MARTIN

    Davros, wasnt that when Collins pointed out that Craig had if not actually encouraged then done nothing whatsoever to prevent the nightly murders of Catholics carried out by loyalist mobs under Craigs jurisdiction and mostly by his police——the killing of the Mac Mahons being a particular case in point evidence points to inspector dixon originally from Cavan whome some say was greatly admired ,in his later yearsby a tenager name of Paisley,

  • raff

    C.Stalin, I could not agree more, as you know from other threads we have been on I believe that every organisation with undesirables in it must be weeded out and dealt with. Re: active participation, if it was that easy I am sure that Republicans would have joined the British army and not the IRB, ICA, etc and saved a lot of heartache!

    Martin, you could look at things that way. The point I was making that regardless of whether the treaty WAS a stepping stone or not, there was no united Ireland. It is important not to assume that something will work just because it can!! There are just too many variables.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Martin, I think it’s pretty universally accepted that Collins did have Henry Wilson assassinated.

  • Davros

    Sorry Martin – That was when Collins and Craig agreed to make NI and The Free State work 🙂

    Have you seriously never read it ?

    You should. Among other things it agreed an end to all IRA activity in the 6 counties and non-jury courts and a very sensible approach to policing.
    Collins even appointed a Belfast GAA and Irish language man, Dan Dempsey, to the ‘Belfast Catholic Recruiting Committee’, set up to attract Belfast Catholics into the B Specials.

    Craig-Collins Agreement
    Historical Context
    General Michael Collins and Ulster Unionist leader Sir James Craig created their own pact about the fate of Northern Ireland and its border in 1922. Their agreement consisted of five major points, including the establishment of a constitution for every county and the elimination of the Boundary Commission. (In other words, Collins and Craig wanted to set the border themselves.) Unfortunately, relations between Craig and Collins deteriorated and the agreement was never implemented, though it was signed by Collins, Kevin O’Higgins, Craig, Churchill, et. al., on March 30, 1922. As we know, sadly, Collins was killed that August so there was no chance of reviving this accord.”
    >
    >
    >
    Signed on behalf of the Provisional Government:
    Michael O Coileain (Michael Collins)
    Caoimhghin O hUigin (Kevin O’Higgins)
    E. S. O. Dugain (Eamon Duggan)
    Art O Griobhtha (Arthur Griffith)
    Signed on behalf of the Government of Northern Ireland:
    James Craig
    Londonderry
    E. M. Archdale
    Countersigned on behalf of the British Government:
    Winston S. Churchill
    L. Worthington-Evans

  • MARTIN

    RAFF,

    Its important not to assume that something will work just because it can!.

    Its also important to still try

  • martin

    Davros,
    thanks ,i hadnt actually read it-interesting about these constitutions for each county–cant imagine that Dan Dempsey would have been too sucessful in recruiting Belfast Catholics to the b-specials in view of the sectarian murders of that period though–imagine it would have gone the same way as the Collins DE Valera pact which Collins reneaged on 4 days before the general election in south giving the pro-treaty side an unfair advantage as most voters thought it would have led to a coalition government involving proand anti treaty Sinn Fein.

    all the same I think this was only Collins buying himself time–get the pograms against Catholics stopped because at that time IRA in north not well armed enough to protect these areas or overtrow the 6,—deal with his opponents down south, then turn on Craig,

    I quote one of collins contemporarys on his 100 birthday-Leutenant General SEAN Clancy who was in the Dublin brigade in collins time “Mick would have broken the treaty once he had trained a well armed and well trained army of 50,000

  • martin

    Davros,
    thanks ,i hadnt actually read it-interesting about these constitutions for each county–cant imagine that Dan Dempsey would have been too sucessful in recruiting Belfast Catholics to the b-specials in view of the sectarian murders of that period though–imagine it would have gone the same way as the Collins DE Valera pact which Collins reneaged on 4 days before the general election in south giving the pro-treaty side an unfair advantage as most voters thought it would have led to a coalition government involving proand anti treaty Sinn Fein.

    all the same I think this was only Collins buying himself time–get the pograms against Catholics stopped because at that time IRA in north not well armed enough to protect these areas or overtrow the 6,—deal with his opponents down south, then turn on Craig,

    I quote one of collins contemporarys on his 100 birthday-Leutenant General SEAN Clancy who was in the Dublin brigade in collins time “Mick would have broken the treaty once he had trained a well armed and well trained army of 50,000”

  • martin

    Davros, should have mentioned above Henry Wilson and the Pettigo incident both of which Churchill held Collins resposible for, occurred in June 1922 2 months after your collins/craig pact.So he was still working to destroy Craigs 6 county state.

  • Davros

    As has so often been the case, events got in the way
    Martin. According to Eamon Phoenix, Irish News, Nov 10 2004 it collapsed in violence and in fact Breen was an early internee

    “Dan Dempsey was appointed by Michael Collins to the ‘Belfast Catholic Recruiting Committee’, set up under the Craig-Collins Pact of March 1922 to attract Belfast Catholics into the B Specials.
    The pact soon collapsed in face of escalating
    violence, north and south.
    When internment was introduced by the unionist
    government in May 1922, Dan Dempsey was one of some 500 men arrested in swoops throughout the north.”

    A fascinating document – e.g. that Griffiths should sign up to a document allowing British Soldiers to assist the police in Arms searches.

    There’s another look at it here in AP/RN Archives, Oct 1999.

  • Davros

    Martin – the pact was never implemented – so the events in June are neither here nor there in that respect.

  • martin

    DAVROS,
    JUST READ IT . a fascinating doccument indeed,so in other words policing problems could have been solved over 80 years ago.What a pity the big fellow was killed.

  • Davros

    Martin – it’s one of the great tragedies that Collins died. It would be nice to think that some of our politicians might read it and move closer to sorting out the mess we are in.

  • martin

    DAVROS,
    (The pact was not implemented,so the events in June are neither here nor there in that respect.)

    Yes but the events after the pact are of relevance in deciphering Collins long term strategy towards the 6 counties,evident that he had not ruled out the use of force after the pact.

  • Jo

    At the risk of poitning out the severe detour offtopic..

    “Jo “sort of argument that the whole force is corrupt” Of course it is! You would have to be extremely naive to think otherwise.”

    I am not naive enough to indulge in such sweeping generalisations, Raff.
    The oversight commissioner would surely have spotted endemic corruption in the PSNI that you seem so confident of, despite your not being in his position or having his insights or professional background.

  • raff

    Jo,

    How do you what position I hold? How do you know what my experience/contact with the police is?

    I may even BE the oversight commissioner!!

    I DO come from a professional background, and would consider myself reasonably intelligent, (I can tie my laces without help!!).

    There are any number of books out there that support my argument, also the names of former RUC men involved with loyalist groupings are very much un the public domain, John Weir springs to mind. Watch a few Peter Taylor documentaries, JO you say you are not naive, mmmmmm.