SF members targeted…

A LIST of loyalist targets posted on shop and circulated in Coleraine appears to have included a number of Sinn Fein members, some of whom were petrol bombed last night in what looks like another pathetic attempt to ratchet up sectarian tension ahead of the marching season.

  • fair_deal

    “another pathetic attempt to ratchet up sectarian tension ahead of the marching season”

    I don’t see how you arrive at an automatic link between the marching season and these sectarian atacks.Sectarianism knows no seasons.

    Is it not more likely linked to tensions from the recent elections?

  • Gonzo

    Oh, well that makes it OK then.

  • PS

    I wait with bated breath to hear DUP condemnation of these disgraceful attacks.

  • Hmm…

    You can’t really be saying that there is no connection between the marching season and a rise in sectarian tensions, even on the most charitable view of the motives of the marchers?

  • fair_deal

    Gonzo

    Nice attempt to twist my comments as some sort of endorsement of the attacks rather than provide evidence for your linkage.

    Coleraine has always been a strong Unionist/Loyalist town that is now seeing the organisation and growth of Sinn Fein. Some thugs has acted in the only way they know how to these developments, thuggery. Instead of the democratic way of getting people on the elctoral register, campaigning hard and improving voter turnout to defeat them at the ballot box. I think this is more likely the link rather than effectively perpetuating a propaganda line that marches are the sole source of sectarianism in our community for six months of the year.

    Hmmm

    “You can’t really be saying that there is no connection between the marching season and a rise in sectarian tensions”

    Perfectly serious. I repeat sectarianism knows no seasons.

    What do you say to a Catholic beaten up in October? Parades are over so it can’t be sectarian?

  • Hmm…

    fair_deal
    I agree that sectarianism is ever present, but it just doesn’t follow that rates of sectarian attacks and degrees of sectarian tensions don’t vary. You might argue that a rise in sectarian tensions is an unintended consequence of marching (although you might not have many takers for that one!) but I don’t see how you can deny that it is associated with such a rise.

  • Gonzo

    fd

    Ok, that was a little unfair.

    The motivation is, whatever the reason or the season, sectarian. It certainly smacks of our local version of ‘ethnic cleansing’ of estates.

  • fair_deal

    Hmmm

    Coincidence does not automatically prove effect.
    Anti-social behaviour always rises in the summer Racist attacks rise in the summer time are parades to blame for those too?

    In this instance I have provided an alternative explanation of why these attacks occured that have nothing to do with the marching season. The PSNI comments on the twisted rationale behind these attacks point to the recent elections (the victims are relatives of those who signed Sinn Fein nomination papers).

    The ‘marching season’ has become a the seasonal catch-all blamehound for the problem of sectarianism, and that dog just won’t hunt.

  • fair_deal

    Gonzo

    Thanks for that. I concur on the motivation.

  • fair_deal

    PS

    From the DUP policy paper on crime

    6. GETTING TOUGH ON HATE CRIMES AND
    PROTECTING THE VULNERABLE
    All crime is undesirable but there is something particularly repugnant about attacks
    on the elderly or crimes which are motivated by sectarian or racial hatred.
    Tougher sentences should be put on a statutory basis for attacks which are
    perpetrated on older people. This can never be the whole solution to this problem
    but it is an important element of it. In relation to hate crimes it is proper that society
    treats them differently from crimes which lack such a motivation.
    We therefore favour statutory provisions concerning the sentencing of these offences.

  • Hmm…

    fair_deal,
    Let me see now, if marching isn’t the cause of sectarianism, erm, what’s left? I’m afraid I’m not buying the unrelated conincidence view (nor do I suppose that it’s the root of all evil).

  • fair_deal

    Hmm

    “what’s left?”

    The source of sectarian attacks in our society are not parades. It is two communities existing in the same place that:
    1. Perceive themselves to be in competition
    2. Have a history of conflict that has contributed to mistrust and bitterness (perpetuated by separate schooling and living)
    3. Each community having groups of thugs and criminals who believe they gain legitmacy by conducting attacks.

    Me being me is not an act of sectarianism neither is anyone else being themselves.

    “if marching isn’t the cause of sectarianism”

    By your logic if parades stopped sectarianism would stop too, you are seriously naive. There was no lack of sectarian tensions in Ulster or Ireland before the Loyal orders were even established.

    Within the last fortnight sectarian attacks resulted because of the results of the Scottish premiership league (or was there a secret Loyal order plot to rig the results?)

  • barney

    11 comments and no suggestion that Sinn Fein petrol bombed themselves to make the orangies look bad. A sign of the six counties’ maturity or just a slow day on Slugger?

  • MARTIN

    MICHAEL MC DOWELLS BELLOWING ABOUT VIOLENCE IS NOTICABLY ABSENT as well.
    (Comments edited: Sluggers is not a Bulletin Board: to carry on rows from one thread to another .. sorry ) Moderator

  • PatMcLarnon

    There is historic evidence that attacks on Catholic homes, assorted property and chapels increase on the run up to the marching season. So it is a fair assumption to make.
    Although, when Catholics in mainly loyalist towns start to put their heads above the paraphet for whatever reason the do seem to attract violence. Larne is a prime example.

  • Davros

    Both Gonzo and Fair deal make good points.

    There’s also an undercurrent of muted anticipation from at least one poster – There’s an element of self-fulfilling prophesy from the media and some Republicans who start to hype the anticipated problems ( ie stir the pot) well in advance of the marching season. I would suggest that there are some in Republicanism who would welcome some nasty incidents or even tragedies in order to regain some of the moral momentum they have lost recently because of robberies and that case currently going through the court system.

    A plague on both houses, Orange and Green, at this time of the year.

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    “There is historic evidence that attacks on Catholic homes, assorted property and chapels increase on the run up to the marching season.”

    I repeat coincidence does not prove cause and effect. Also a variety of crimes rise in the summer time e.g. anti-social behaviour. Sectarian strife predates parading and attacks occur outside the marching season.

    Also despite your post, sectarian attacks are not a one way street e.g. Ardoyne and Lanark Way a few weekends ago or the attacks on rural Orange halls.

  • des

    Davros

    You are a master of blaming unionist violence on republicans.

    I think there is a problem or a mind set that exists within sections of unionism

    “Sure they must be guilty”

    “Sure its only Catholics”

    “The boys must have their reasons”

    Many of the unionist posters on this site,answer questions about unionist/loyalist violence by blaming it on Nationalts/Republicans.

    There is a denial of responsibility for the actions of sections of your community.

    I recall the burning to death of the three Quinn children in Ballymoney as being a prime example.

  • Young Fogey

    Instead of the democratic way of getting people on the elctoral register, campaigning hard and improving voter turnout to defeat them at the ballot box.

    In the town of Coleraine, they were defeated at the ballot box! Not good enough for some people I see.

  • Davros

    You are a master of blaming unionist violence on republicans.

    Most of the blame lies fairly and squarely in my community – However it’s worth remembering that
    republicans raise the perfectly valid point that
    Unionist and Loyalist behaviour was a contributory factor to events done by them that they have since acknowledged were unacceptable. Same thing applies to my community. Athboy is the best illustration of the point I’m making. Senior Republicans have never shied away from sacrificing nationalists for what they saw as “the greater good”.

    Once again we see the attempt from the green corner to say ‘we were all angels and you lot were all devils’ .

    Wrongs on both sides , a plague on both their houses.

  • Chris Gaskin

    I have never heard Republicans say they were angels Davros.

    Republicans have admitted and apologised to all the non-combatants.

    Republicans have also turned away from hero worship.

    Ordinary men and women who did extraordinary things in extraordinary times

  • Davros

    Luckily there are people like you and paddy coming through the system Chris. However on these boards there are plenty of posters who will only acknowledge faults on the other side … des says he “remembers” the Quinn children – does he dare remember Bernard Taggart ?

  • Chris Gaskin

    Davros

    It’s not just me and paddy, it’s the policy of the Republican movement

  • Davros

    Stated policy can be very different from reality Chris mate – after all the Unionist Parties have had equality and fairplay as policy for decades.
    And God forbid that some of the posters proclaiming their republican values here should actually be members of, or representative in any way of , the Sinn Féin party.

  • des

    They vast majority of paramilitary activity carried out in recent months has come from within the unionist community.A sizable ammount of those on the recieving end of these attacks have been young unionists as well as incidents of sectarianism

    These are facts.

    “plenty of posters who will only acknowledge faults on the other side”

    Davros you should have posted this quote back to yourself.You spend most of your time justifying unionist violence by blaming it on republicans.

    You persistantly call unionist violence reactionary,as i noted yet again on a different topic last night,i think you were justifying the formation of the uvf by blaming it on republicans.

    1966 on the Shankill or 2005 in Coleraine,you seem to have the same thinking.

    Its the taigs own fault,they should just keep quiet and they’ll be left alone.

  • Davros

    As expected , faced with unpalatable home truths des starts throwing muck….

    Its the taigs own fault,they should just keep quiet and they’ll be left alone.

    it was a variant of that that people like you tried to use to gloss over the sectarian campaign aimed at protestants along the border …. they’ll be left alone if they don’t join the police or the security forces ….

    Classic tactic – accuse the opponent of your own tactics and thinking….

    Athboy Des ?

    You say you remember the Quinn Children … what were your chums saying about opportunistic abuse of the memory of victims ?

  • PatMcLarnon

    ‘Also despite your post, sectarian attacks are not a one way street e.g. Ardoyne and Lanark Way a few weekends ago or the attacks on rural Orange halls.’

    Overlooking the quite obvious whataboutery that has entered the thread. At the time of the trouble at Ardoyne and Lanark Way (rightly blamed on nationalist drunks who started it) no one tried to excuse it.
    What we seem to have is a quite deliberate attempt by loyalist paramilitaries to step up attacks on
    a. Each other (Coutroom scens and the attempted murder in Holywood plus dozens of other minor skirmishes.
    b. Their own community, the massive upsurge in shootings recently
    c. The widespread attacks on Catholic homes in North Belfast, followed by attacks in N Antrim, E Belfast and now Coleraine.

    On those points fair deal I think your whataboutery is pretty much exposed as baseless.

  • Davros

    “Des” : “as i noted yet again on a different topic last night,i think you were justifying the formation of the uvf by blaming it on republicans”

    and another sock-puppet trips over his own feet ! Which one were you on that no, no, never thread then “des” ? ‘Cos “des” didn’t post on that thread 😉

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    “no one tried to excuse it”

    So why did Sinn Fein representatives try to shift the blame on to the PSNI?

    “I think your whataboutery is pretty much exposed as baseless.”

    On this thread and others I have not tried to deny or hide the responsibility for the recent attacks on homes in North Belfast as the responsibility of loyalists nor did I do so for the Coleraine attacks.

    If I provided examples of how Protestants have been subject to sectarian assault how does that make what i say baseless?

    Your post was a repitition of similar ones trying to present sectarian issues in North Belfast as one-sided, they are not. Not whataboutery I just think blinkers and hypocrisy stink.

  • finn69

    Chris Gaskin, Davros refers to you, as you are fairly new to this site and so can be bothered, as a nationalist, to post on it.

  • Davros

    finn69 – what are you trying to say ?

  • barnshee

    Seems a bit rich did SF?IRA not target protestants
    Sauce for the goose??

  • des

    “Des” : “as i noted yet again on a different topic last night,i think you were justifying the formation of the uvf by blaming it on republicans”

    and another sock-puppet trips over his own feet ! Which one were you on that no, no, never thread then “des” ? ‘Cos “des” didn’t post on that thread 😉

    Davros

    I read the bloody thing this evening,you dim wit.

    Taxi , for Divros

  • finn69

    its worth your while to flick thro the threads and see how few nationalists let alone republicans post here, any anti-unionist posts are quickly removed to avoid “legal action” while anti-nationalist posts are merely “valid answers”
    this site is obsessed with gaining kudos in mainstream media circles and so tailors itself to give the posts that the media wants to quote as representative of public opinion.
    a case of pop will eat itself
    Chris, you’d be better off finding yourself a more level playing field – as most other nationalists have- and leave mick and his cronies to carry on kidding themselves that they are “Slugger O’Toole records news, commentary and diverse opinion on Northern Ireland.”

    I only jump on here to see what unionist codswallop they are spouting from time to time as do most other nationalist ex-posters.

    the media is very fickle and mick will soon be left with a bad copy of youngunionists.co.uk

  • Davros

    I read the bloody thing this evening,you dim wit.

    You said you noted it on a different topic 🙂 as in
    you accused me of “justifying the formation of the uvf by blaming it on republicans” … the Poster who levelled that charge was “andy” … it must be confusing for you remembering under which handle you said what 😉

  • Davros

    I only jump on here to see what unionist codswallop they are spouting from time to time as do most other nationalist ex-posters.

    Close the door behind you 🙂

  • Gonzo

    finn

    Suggest you look at the title of the thread.

  • GavBelfast

    Who could fail to be depressed by some of the drivel posted here?

    Incoherent some of it may have been, but I do believe some people actually get off on hearing about disgraceful incidents, such as these cases of intimidation.

    Making political capital is one thing, and at times it’s hard to resist, but voyeuistic enjoyment of hearing about events like those in Coleraine to the point of salivating over them is sad in the extreme.

    Letters to the Editor took a lot more effort pre-Internet – the web makes it too easy for those whose views would suggest they are still going around on all-fours.

  • finn69

    Gonzo
    suggest you read the posts
    “Seems a bit rich did SF?IRA not target protestants
    Sauce for the goose??”

  • finn69

    Davros, what i’m trying to say is that micks drive to be mentioned in mainstream media results in nationalists posts been repeatedly deleted for the silliest of reasons, and so threads are left with unionists disagreeing with themselves and this is then passed of as public opinion. Davros having popped on here from time to time over the last few months I can find no consistant republican let alone nationalist poster, can you name any republican poster who uses this site long term? I’ve seen threads from here continueed on the young unionist site, i’ve never seen one spill over on dannymorrison.com

  • bill

    Making political capital is one thing, and at times it’s hard to resist, but voyeuistic enjoyment of hearing about events like those in Coleraine to the point of salivating over them is sad in the extreme.

    Unionists on this site have revelled in the story of the death of Robert McCartney for over three months.

    Their pure glee when posting on the story really was sad and pretty sick.

  • Davros

    finn69- your point falls on a simple point – you don’t know which posts have been deleted. I have had posts removed and snipped. Certainly most of the complaining about moderating here is done by nationalists and republicans – Maybe unionists don’t cry foul as much when their posts are removed ?
    It’s a claim often made – ‘your lot’ are quicker to claim they are being victimised than mine ….800 years has extended online ?

    “Most Oppressed Posters Ever” anybody ? 😉

  • fair_deal

    Finn69

    Some regular republican posters
    Pat McLarnon
    Maca
    Chris Gaskin
    Paddy Canuck
    PS

  • Chris Gaskin

    Finn69

    I have posted on this site for over a year

    I have posted here fairly often, almost every day unless I am not in the little smoke.

    This isn’t a republican blog, that is why I formed Balrog.

    I find this an excellant site as it allows me to interact with a wide range of political viewpoints that I would otherwise have been unable to engage with.

    If Republicans find this site a cold house, I don’t believe it is, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

    As for Republicans who post here long term

    Pat, myself, PS, Henry, shaypaul, Mark etc

  • PatMcLarnon

    fair deal,

    their is a qualitive difference between the actions of drunks who will probably not reappear until the next Old Firm game and a seemingly resurgent loyalist paramilitary campaign of intimidation. The attempted comparison does not serve you well.

    SF did recognise that the initial trouble at Ardoyne was started by nationalists. The complaint was over the behaviour of the PSNI once the trouble had escalated to involve several hundred from both sides. Amazingly loyalists were able to produce hundreds of golf balls and used them at will. The PSNI, as is their want, baton charged nationalists at the scene. A la interface violence of several years ago, they simply mingled with their co religionists at Twadell Ave.

  • finn69

    fair_deal, wow 5 whole repulican posters

    Davros……I rest my case

  • Gonzo

    finn

    I did read the barnshee post.

    That’s called whataboutery, which you of all people should recognise.

    However, it doesn’t actually back up your argument, which the others have systematically destroyed anyway.

  • Davros

    Finn- I was going to suggest you give it a rest 🙂

    We have a good range of posters here willing to exchange ideas and opinions. we have UUP, DUP, APNI, SDLP and SF contributors as well as regulars from the ROI and further afield. I know we have some who don’t play fair.

  • Joseyboy

    Can anyone confirm the number of orange bands in the ‘Greater Coleraine’ area ?

  • Davros

    What is an ‘Orange Band’ ?

  • Gonzo

    Presumably one that the Orange Order hires for its parades.

  • Minesapint

    Is it one of those wrist bands? To promote some charitable Orange institution?

    To return to post – all those involved in these attacks, carrying them out, organising them and justifying them are thugs. Thuggery is common to all sides in Northern Ireland. Prod thugs aren’t as ‘cute’.

  • Joseyboy

    Orange bands ? A group of musicians or would-be musicians who perform as, if you wil, ensembles on the roads of Coleraine and other locales during fair weather who are members or affilates of the Orange Order, membership of which is contingent upon certain conditions, among them a sincere love and veneration for his (sic) ‘Heavenly Father’, diligent study of ‘the Holy Scriptures’, strenuous opposition to the (self-evidently)fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and (very very very)scrupulous avoidance of even countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act of ceremony of Popish worship. Additionally, he must and promise among other things to show due respect to the Worshipful Master (and other Officers);and furthermore, he must attest that he was and is born of Protestant parents, that he was educated (yes, that’s the word they use)in the Protestant faith, and have never been in any way (like, at all) connected with the Church of Rome. Oh yeah, his wife has to be Protestant too.

    Those guys. Any idea ahow many in the district of Coleraine ?

  • fair_deal

    finn69

    I did say ‘some’. Chris has provided a few more names. You had claimed there weren’t any so please withdraw your false claim.

    Pat McLarnon

    “their is a qualitive difference between the actions of drunks who will probably not reappear until the next Old Firm game and a seemingly resurgent loyalist paramilitary campaign of intimidation”

    Sectarian intimidation is less intimidatory if it is done while drunk? Balls to be quite frank.

    The eight guys who attacked houses in Twaddell a couple of months ago in the early hours of the morning – was that delayed football shock?

    Are you trying to create a hierarchy of victims of sectarian intimidation?

    I shall provide a number of other instances of incidents in the last eight weeks in North Belfast (these are from the Glenbryn/Deerpark area). A Protestant man walking back from a pub on the Old Park Road to Glenbryn was assaulted by four men – among the nice things he was called was a Hun and Orange ba***rd. A car load of republicans drove into the Alliance area of Glenbryn and smashed windows in a house. (At this stage interface workers contacted republican counterparts for intervention but the pattern has continued). This was followed by an attack on a protestant taxi-driver at the women’s refuge in Alliance/Deerpark and two taxis from a taxi firm in Ardoyne tried to ram a protestant taxi-driver at the Ardoyne shops.

    This is the pattern of sectarian attacks that are regrettably a persistent part of life in North Belfast where both communities are perptrators and victims.

    NONE of it is justifiable, acceptable or more excusable on the ‘We were pi**ed’ excuse.

  • fair_deal

    Joseyboy

    “members or affilates of the Orange Order”

    You are either a member of the Orange order or not you cannot be an affiliate. The vast majority of flute and other band members are not members of the Orange Order. The tradition of a lodge having its own band has significantly declined over the last thirty years.

    “Any idea ahow many in the district of Coleraine ?”

    From my memory, in Coleraine town itself there are about five bands. However if you include some of the nearby estates and villages it grows to over a dozen.

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    To get back slightly to the original post (and PS’s first comment), I was hoping one of the local unionist councillors would come out and condemn it, and right enough on UTV live at tea time they had a Unionist councillor on (I don’t remember the name or whether he was DUP or UUP) who condemned the publication of this list and the subsequent attacks pretty much unequivocally and called on them to stop because people, and specifically “innocent people” will get hurt and/or die.

  • PatMcLarnon

    ‘Sectarian intimidation is less intimidatory if it is done while drunk? Balls to be quite frank.’

    If LVF and UDA members (with their track records and access to weapons) are outside your home in the dead of night they are going to more intimidatory than a group of drunks. Therefore keep your balls to yourself.

    Being from the area i can verify that the incidents you quote re Glenbryn are the figment of your imagination.

    There now appears to be an attempted resurgence of loyalist paramiltary attacks on Catholic homes. There is no tit for tat campaign and your attempt to balance the whataboutery scales with reference to a bunch of drunks is a tad pathetic.

    It is only when you call it like it is that any type of progress can be made

  • bootman

    To get back slightly to the original post (and PS’s first comment), I was hoping one of the local unionist councillors would come out and condemn it, and right enough on UTV live at tea time they had a Unionist councillor on (I don’t remember the name or whether he was DUP or UUP) who condemned the publication of this list and the subsequent attacks pretty much unequivocally and called on them to stop because people, and specifically “innocent people” will get hurt and/or die.

    Posted by beano; EverythingUlster.com at June 8, 2005 10:23 AM

    Are sinn féin members “innocent people”? after all, are they not part of SF/IRA that unionists bleat on about? why should loyalists draw any distinction if thier cheerleaders in the DUP dont?

  • PS

    because people, and specifically “innocent people” will get hurt and/or die.

    Beano

    Does that mean that the Unionist in question wouldn’t see it as just as bad if it was a Shinner they got?

  • spirit-level

    finn69 –
    add Ringo, Jacko, Dessertspoon to the list of regular Republican posters plus myself, though I am also a “friend of unionism”.

  • Paddy Matthews

    fair_deal:

    I don’t think maca is a “republican” poster, or at least not one in the NI politics sense.

  • spirit-level

    Addon to debate:
    The politics of morality is a contradiction in terms , because although morality influences politics, it is essentially outside it and presupposes it.
    When your dealing with Right and Wrong in Norn Iron
    1)we don’t do spin
    2)we don’t do lies
    3)we dont do whataboutery –

    As my Zen Teacher says:
    To use the scalpel and be a successful surgeon of truth: you need the heart of a lion , the eyes of a hawk , and the hands of a lady.

  • Baluba

    This whole argument is a result of the ‘hierarchy of victims’ that exists in this place. Some people are deemed to have deserved to die to differing degrees, even by those who purport to be Christian.

    A similar thing occurred to me recently when touring the old Long Kesh site, that the tour guide expressed that the poor prison officers must have had a tough time after coldly bringing us through places where human rights abuses were routine. Presumably, the prisoners deserved what they got and the POs didn’t.

    If you are a Sinn Féin counsellor, you still certainly don’t deserve to be burned out of your house.

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    “If LVF and UDA members (with their track records and access to weapons) are outside your home in the dead of night they are going to more intimidatory than a group of drunks”

    A number of republicans were among the mob including one with multiple murder convictions but the people of Twadell are not to be concerned as the republicans were drunk at the time? Have Ardoyne republicans no access to weapons or track record of violence?

    “Being from the area I can verify that the incidents you quote re Glenbryn are the figment of your imagination.”

    As I understand it you live in West Belfast not Glenbryn – am i wrong?.

    So the bruises I saw on the young fella got there how exactly? The broken windows I helped board up smashed themselves?

    Paddy Matthews

    Fair enough on maca, maybe got maca mixed up with someone else.

  • PatMcLarnon

    Of course there were republicans at Twadell after the rioting started. Most interface workers that I know of are either ex republican or loyalist activists. There is no evidence that republican activists played anything other than a calming influence to the situation.
    At Twadell the loyalist interface workers went AWOL, still a bone of contention to all concerned

    Given that I am from the area I can hardly be from West Belfast. Your assumption is once again wrong.

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    There is eye-witness and video evidence showing republicans acting in manners that could not be described as calming at the twaddell interface.

    “Have Ardoyne republicans no access to weapons or track record of violence?”

    As you did not answer this question I’ll ask it again.

    “Given that I am from the area I can hardly be from West Belfast”

    I never said you were from West Belfast I said “you live in West Belfast not Glenbryn” (hence limiting your ability to know about day by day events in Ardoyne never mind the neighbouring Protestant community of Glenbryn – please bother to read the post before replying).

    My assertion about you presently living in West belfast is based among other things a recent post where you referred to a punishment shooting in the area you live alleging it was conducted by the Stickies (an allegation from what I hear is true) – the area you alluded to is in West Belfast.

    “At Twadell the loyalist interface workers went AWOL, still a bone of contention to all concerned”

    So the blame shifting continues – it was the police’s fault and now its loyalist interface workers for not being instantly on hand when a large crowd of republicans chose to go on a sectarian rampage.

    Does the fact that after a Celtic football defeat that the instant reaction of a few hundred of (what i assume where)Ardoyne residents is to go attack Prods not a good indicator that sectarian attitudes are far from rare in the area possibly even common? In vino veritas even?

  • aquifer

    Attacks on people’s homes are disgusting.

    Looking forward to the surveillance/ stakeout that sets up some of these attackers, racist, sectarian, drunk, fascist, nationalist, or whatever for physical suppression, arrest, conviction, and imprisonment.

    Occasional passing patrols are not the same thing at all.

  • chris

    Much of the discussion on this thread has failed to concentrate on the substantive matter.

    Apparently the Coleraine list derives from those nationalists who had the ‘temerity’ to sign the nomination papers of the local Sinn Fein candidates.

    This leads to a number of important questions, the most important being how did the loyalists obtain the list?

    I’m presuming that it is publicly available- otherwise we are into a much murkier situation.

    The Electoral Office should be compelled to end the practice of publishing nominees in future for the sake of preserving faith in the democratic process here.

  • Davros

    This leads to a number of important questions, the most important being how did the loyalists obtain the list?

    I’m presuming that it is publicly available- otherwise we are into a much murkier situation.

    Newton Emerson addressed this point 28th May in his Saturday Column ( subs needed )in the Irish News when SF tried to throw some mud at the PSNI.

    “Sinn Fein doth protest too much.

    Following a series of ball-bearing attacks on the homes of its representatives, including Gerry Adams, the party said: “Those responsible were operating with accurate information regarding the addresses of republicans. One source of this information could obviously be the PSNI.”

    Another source could obviously be Sinn Fein’s nomination papers, available for public inspection at the Electoral Office. “

  • fair_deal

    Chris

    Nomination papers are publicly available documents.

  • peteb

    “Nomination papers are publicly available documents.”

    And rightly so.. we need more transparency in government, at all levels, not less.. and it also lessens the risk of candidates forging nominees’ signatures.

  • chris

    “And rightly so.. we need more transparency in government, at all levels, not less.. and it also lessens the risk of candidates forging nominees’ signatures.”

    And makes it easier for loyalists to attack catholics, pete?

    BTW- Surely there are other means to prevent nominees being forged. The Electoral Office could contact nominees directly or require electoral details contained in registration forms without the need for publication of nominations.

    I’d like you to address the problem this development poses, Pete. How do you intend on preventing paramilitaries from curtailing the democratic attempts by political parties to contest elections?

  • Davros

    makes it easier for loyalists to attack catholics, pete?

    Are they attacking ‘catholics’ for being RCs or for being members or supporters of SF ? Does it only matter if it’s RCs who are vulnerable Chris ?

  • chris

    Of course not, Davros. What matters is that the loyalists are clearly using a provision provided for by the Electoral Office to target attacks on nationalists AND to restrict the political and electoral growth of a political party, namely Sinn Fein.

    I have to wonder, Davros, were we talking about protestants being attacked for nominating a UUP/ DUP candidate, would the points I raised even be disputed? Do you believe that the Electoral Office should make it easy for loyalists to target people?

  • peteb

    “And makes it easier for loyalists to attack catholics, pete?”

    That’s quite a leap in logic you’ve made, chris, from what I said to the question you’ve directed at me.

    As for elevating this incident to a “development” where paramilitaries curtail “the democratic attempts by political parties to contest elections”.. that is, hopefully, an exaggeration at this point.

    As for suggestions.. we treat the paramilitaries with the measures that appear to be beginning to bear fruit at this point in time.. and we don’t over-react to their attempts to stifle our still-developing democracy by placing opaque barriers between our politicians and the people they are supposed to represent.

  • Davros

    Chris – I was thinking of SDLP people’s homes who have been attacked in places like Strabane by Republicans. Don’t they count in your eyes ? Or is it only attacks by loyalists that matter ? There’s at least one SF official who is a protestant – does he not matter if he was to be attacked by loyalists? (see below)

    I think you have a fair point about addresses – one worthy of sensible debate – I seem to recall the same points were raised and scorned by republicans over addresses on documents being submitted to the Parades commission. I think religion is less important than party affiliation in this instance and by stressing the religious aspect here you weaken your argument and leave yourself open to the sort of comments I made to illustrate the flaw in the presentation of your case.

  • chris

    “…we don’t over-react to their attempts to stifle our still-developing democracy by placing opaque barriers between our politicians and the people they are supposed to represent.”

    Absolute trite, Pete.

    How opaque is a petrol bomb through your window, Pete? Let’s be clear about this. By seeking to protect the right of individuals to support a political party -and still possess the right to live free from sectarian intimidation in a place like Coleraine -we are surely not putting ‘barriers’ between the people and politicians. Surely the proposal I made would alleviate this concern you raise.

    What’s clear, Pete, is that you offer no other opinion on the ramifications for this development in future elections. Do you not think it logical to assume that Sinn Fein and perhaps even the SDLP will find it very difficult to get nominees willing to potentially sign their own death warrant just to allow a politician to run in an election in Coleraine?

    I believe this development will- and should- have implications for how election candidates are nominated. Those disagreeing should come up with a better reason than that proffered by Pete else I would suggest they’re simply adopting the attitude that ‘it’s alright ’cause it’s only happening to the sinners…’

  • chris

    Davros

    You’re nit-picking. I raise the issue of religion specifically because it’s pertinent in this case. Catholics have been attacked because they would seem to support Sinn Fein, live in a protestant area and can therefore easily be attacked. Were evidence to exist that republicans were similarly using the electoral nominations process to attack unionist-supporting protestants than I would publicly register my abhorrence and condemnation as well.

    What’s at stake is the right of parties to organise and people to feel free to support the political parties of their choice here. Whether you like it or not, the most vulnerable grouping in this context are nationalists residing in unionist areas, with ample evidence in the form of loyalist attacks in the post-Drumcree period proving the point.

    I agree with the thrust of your argument, be it regarding parades or elections anonymity should be preserved, except for between the individuals and the statutory body concerned.

  • Davros

    Chris – I freely admit to being a nit picker. However as worded your post allows easy escapes.
    it is worth remembering that the SDLP suffered a series of equally serious attacks from the republican community. And I’m still not convinced that the primary motivation to attack those linked with SF is religious rather than political. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that religion isn’t a factor, or that religion alone wouldn’t provide a motive for these thugs. There have also been attacks on Loyalists by loyalists.

    I could also argue that if the attacks are based on religion it’s irrelevent that some of those attacked have been connected with SF , unless we are saying that “ordinary” RCs deserve less protection than SF ?

  • peteb

    “Those disagreeing should come up with a better reason than that proffered by Pete else I would suggest they’re simply adopting the attitude that ‘it’s alright ’cause it’s only happening to the sinners…'”

    And I’d suggest you make fewer assumptions about other people’s comments.

  • des

    Davros

    Still justifying loyalist paramilitarism,i see

  • bill

    Its not just Catholics who should be be fearful of loyalist paramilitaries in the coming weeks

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4075166.stm

  • barnshee

    “Ordinary men and women who did extraordinary things in extraordinary times”

    Some examples of these extraordinary people

    1 Shot a protestant in front of his two small children simply because he was protestant
    2 Walked into a hardware shop and shot the unarmed owner( a protestant) in front of his wife
    3 Walked up behind two policemen in a crowded holiday resort and shot them in back of the neck
    4 Panicked when planting bombs in (funnily enough Coleraine) and abandoned the car bomb killing old age pensioners and injuring dozens of shoppers.

    I could go on– hoever,where are the courageous face to face challanges and battles by these extraordinary people– er they don`t do that because when they do they tend to get shot.

    These are no “Ordinary men and women ” they are murdering scum. Their supporters have now turned up in a town they bombed and are are getting a hostile reception – surprise!!. Of course the ultimate irony now ensues– they are now being protected by the despised PSNI to ensure their continued safety

  • crow

    ironic is’nt it.