Two to be charged in connection with McCartney murder

The BBC are reporting that the 2 men arrested recently, as part of the McCartney murder investigation, are to appear in court in Belfast tomorrow. According to the report, one of the men is to be charged with the murder of Robert McCartney and the other with attempted murder of Brendan Devine. However, as the Press Association report on UTV indicates, as the Guardian report indicates, the McCartney family’s campaign has always maintained that a wider group of people were involved in the murder and subsequent cover-up. Catherine McCartney is quoted as saying to PA – “We hope it will lead to further arrests because there were more than two people involved. We still have a long way to go in terms of a trial and convictions”. RTE also has a report.. Update Edited link. Update 2 RTE reports that the two accused have appeared in court and have been remanded in custody until 1 July.

  • garret

    bertie

    What goes around comes around.

  • Raff

    OK c. Stalin, one point at a time read carefully.

    1). If the police were not involved in point scoring then why did they not just go down to the hospital talk to Mr Devine who it has been alleged by the Mc Cartney sisters, stated he could and would pick his and Roberts attackers out of a line up, and then start making arrests?

    2). Had Sinn Fein been honest players, etc, AT NO TIME do I attempt to make apologies for SF. I feel as do other people I have spoken to that SF did more damage to the provisional movement by adopting the “killers are not true republicans, the family needs justice” line.

    3).There is no evidence that the IRA operates any kind of serious internal disciplinary procedure, beyond kicking out people who break the rules – this has been the reaction to this whole melee. If you do a bit of reading you will find out that PIRA do claim to have and appear in the past to have carried out investigations and what is now referred to as ‘internal housekeeping’ previously ‘Kangaroo Courts’ – I am not involved with them I can only go by what I have read.

    4).Remind me again, what exactly have the police done wrong? – Well c. Stalin take your pick. Was it the failure to talk to Mr Devine? Was it the delay in interviewing those who admitted they were in the bar? Was it the near constant referrals to this being carried out by PIRA? I don’t know!

    5).The murder of Ms Dorrian, this was not a move into conjecture (I really think whataboutery is such a pathetic norn ironism!!) it was as a comparison – if one death is very important then surely the other is too? This should be evident if you read the post properly.

    On a final note and here I will venture into conjecture – Is it possible that Mary wanted to portray that there is more than one side to ANY story.

    c.s. I hope that clears it all up for you.

  • bertie

    “bertie

    “What goes around comes around”

    I have absolutely no idea why my post asking Davros to clarify his terminology for me has given rise to this comment.

    Are you trying to say that the atrocities mentioned are part of what comes around or what goes arround or are you getting at something else.

  • Jimmy_Sands

    bwd,

    The danger with using terms like “army” and “war” as rhetorical devices is the temptation creeps in to argue as if they had somehow become terms of art by mere repetition. I understand why its admirers would wish to use the term rather than “terrorists” or “gangsters” but it needs to be understood that the words in this context convey nothing other than the admiration of the person using them. You can call them Betty if you wish, but it doesn’t alter what they are.

  • TAFKABO

    Raff.

    There is usually more than one side to any story, but that doesn’t mean we should give equal credence to all sides.

    For example, in rape cases, it has sometimes been suggested that the victim was asking for it by wearing suggestive clothing.
    I don’t deny that some people might hold this opinion, but I do think they are not worth listening to when they start saying this.

    Same with people who allude to a history of domestic violence on the part of the victim as some kind of justification for murder.

    I think Robert McCartney said it best.

    Nobody deserves this.

  • garret

    “Are you trying to say that the atrocities mentioned are part of what comes around or what goes arround”

    Got it. Unionism planted the seeds of the troubles. They reep what they sow.

  • Raff

    TAFKABO

    Point well put and taken.

  • bertie

    Well I’ve just learned that the victims of these atrocities deserved it. I wonder did the non-unionist victims of the IRA also deserve to be murdered.

  • Pronsias

    TAFKABO
    I think Robert McCartney said it best.

    Nobody deserves this.

    You are hearing what his sisters said he said.

  • TAFKABO

    Pronsias.

    No.

    It’s what he was heard saying on his mobile phone as he was being murdered.

  • martin

    IM NOT GOING TO COMMENT EITHER WAY about guilt or innocence of those mentioned.what Iwill say is that the mac Cartneys were better people and better Republicans than those who carried out this butchery–the men of Easter 1916 and the likes of Bobby Sands must turn in their graves when they see scum like these recruited into their movement,

  • Who said what when where

    It’s amazing. This quote is on this very thread and yet the selective vision still manages to miss it, and persists in the myth that the sisters said it (and implication that therefore it must not be true).

    “I saw Bert holding his hands up going ‘Nobody deserved this. We didn’t do anything’,” he said.

    The two friends were then attacked. Both were stabbed in the stomach.

    “We were just left to die. And we didn’t deserve it,” said Mr Devine.

  • mary

    If Devine was such a good friend why did he leave it so long to come forward and point some one out.

    it was said in the past that devine was a close friend of one of the suspects brother but I heard the brother and him fell out last week I wonder if there is some sort of revange devine is trying out.

  • TAFKABO

    You can wonder and postulate as much as you wish.
    But don’t fool yourself into thinking you have any chance of swaying the opinion of objectively minded persons.

  • mary

    I am just saying what I heard. Did not see it for my self. Just like a lot of talk on this site all hear say.

  • aquifer

    Reading this thread. The mask did not just slip.
    Its lying on the floor.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Raff:

    “1). If the police were not involved in point scoring then why did they not just go down to the hospital talk to Mr Devine who it has been alleged by the Mc Cartney sisters, stated he could and would pick his and Roberts attackers out of a line up, and then start making arrests?”

    But the police have been making arrests! They arrested five or six people within a day or two of the murder, presumably for questioning, but had to release them again. You might recall at that time that republicans attempted to block that series of arrests by orchestrating a riot. AFAIK they have subsequently arrested and then released one or two people until now (?).

    There are plenty of very good reasons why the police haven’t charged anyone until now :

    – They need to gather the evidence required to put charges first, including collecting witness statements and forensic evidence

    – Do you think republicans would have responded favourably to a kneejerk series of charges, given Devine’s reputation ? It seems a bit like double standards on one hand to make allegations about a person’s shady background, and on the other hand suggest that the police should have taken that person completely seriously and made arrests on the basis of his statement alone ?

    – punishment attacks and assaults by paramilitaries on their “own” patch tend to be a no-go area for the police. It’s possible that it took the public outcry for the police to launch a serious investigation. Compare with the murder of Andrew Kearney.

    “If you do a bit of reading you will find out that PIRA do claim to have and appear in the past to have carried out investigations and what is now referred to as ‘internal housekeeping’ previously ‘Kangaroo Courts’ – I am not involved with them I can only go by what I have read.”

    What the IRA claim and what they actually do in real life are two completely different things. They say they’re not criminals, yet they rob post offices and kill Irish police officers in the process. I bet it doesn’t say anywhere in the IRA’s rulebook that volunteers are allowed to knock over post offices, yet apparently it was a political action and republicans believe they are eligible for early release.

    Do you think the actions of the people who killed Robert McCartney were congruent with the attitude of people who believed that they would be held accountable to disciplinary procedures ?

    Regarding the police’s errors :

    “Was it the failure to talk to Mr Devine?”

    – Devine isn’t a reliable witness
    – Remind me, how is it we know they didn’t talk to him ?

    “Was it the delay in interviewing those who admitted they were in the bar?”

    Do you mean the republicans in the bar who aren’t known for giving information to the police, or the other people in the bar who were told by republicans not to give information to the police ?

    “Was it the near constant referrals to this being carried out by PIRA? I don’t know!”

    It was carried out by PIRA members, the intimidation campaign against witnesses was conducted by PIRA members, and the PIRA itself implemented it’s own “disciplinary procedures”. This murder was a product of the PIRA’s existence.

  • mary

    Comrade Stalin I take it you are listen the hear say when you talk about the intimidation campaign against witnesses. Because there is none has not been any and not likely to be any other than making people go forward and tell everything they seen.

  • mary

    Can anyone on this site tell me if they know anyone that has been intimidate by the IRA or S/F in the Mc Cartney case. Or have you all just took what you have read in the paper or heard on the tv as the truth.

  • MARTIN

    MARY,

    i dont know whether there was intimidation or not in this case ,what i am almost 100% Certain is that the Southern newspaper columists have no sources in North ,republican or otherwise these stories I give the same if not less credence as i would the daily horoscopes in the indo which i have been told by a former employee are wrote out during a tea break , do you know anyone who has been interviewed by the sindo or any other free state newspaper?

  • Fanny

    Dear God, what utterly transparent and desperate attempts to muddy the waters.
    Note the following – the character of the victim has no bearing in a murder, and the place to address questions surrounding a murder is in court. So why do some people seem so outraged that this matter has no gone to court?
    Having failed every test so far the RM has one last chance now to demonstrate its fitness for a role in civilised society – namely, can it rein in the angry brigade while this trial progresses. If yes, I’ll eat my hat. If no, I’ll never laugh at a DUP voter again.

  • MARTIN

    Fanny ,what are you on about .
    Jerry Adams has called on all witnesses to come forward.he or the republican movement will not force people to come forward ,members involved have been expelled from both sinn fein and IRA.

    THE only thing left for them to do is to round up anyone who has ever frequented magennisses tie them up and deliver them to psni station– but that wouldnt suit you either would it then youd scream about due process and vigilantism

  • TAFKABO

    *sigh*

    Amidst all this stuff and nonsense we have the statement of the McCartney family today.

    Speaking outside court, Mr McCartney’s sister Paula said: “The family is relieved that the first step in a very long process is over.

    Mr McCartney’s sisters and partner outside the court
    Mr McCartney’s sisters and partner were in court

    “We are glad that it has arrived at the court because we vehemently believe that everyone is entitled to a fair trial and we hope that that is what is going to happen here.”

    The grace and dignity displayed by the family is remarkable.

  • raff

    c.stalin
    – Do you think republicans would have responded favourably to a kneejerk (sic) series of charges, given Devine’s reputation ? Where in the name of god do you see that in my post? It seems that you are trying to put words on my paper so to speak.

    When you state “I bet it doesn’t say anywhere in the IRA’s rulebook that volunteers are allowed to knock over post offices” are you sure of that? You are very quick to point out in my post
    When I ask about police interviewing Devine – “Remind me, how is it we know they didn’t talk to him?”
    Yet you make claims regarding the IRA rulebook.
    If you are going to pull me on a point of order it looks very poor for you if you then go and do something similar.

    “the intimidation campaign against witnesses was conducted by PIRA members” two words PROVE IT

  • JGK

    Raff

    Haven’t the sisters themselves been talking of intimidation… isn’t that a large part of their anger at SF/IRA?

    Cheers
    JGK

    This was on Newshound:

    New threat to McCartneys posted on web
    (by Suzanne Breen, Sunday Tribune)

    A threat to seriously injure the sisters of murdered Belfast man Robert McCartney, which was made last week on a website run by former Sinn Féin publicity director, Danny Morrison, is to be investigated by the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

    The McCartneys said they were “shocked and very concerned” about the threat which they believe came from someone within the Short Strand.

    The message said: “The McCartneys better shut the hell up with their lies unless they want seriously injured.”

  • raff

    JGK

    You will have to help me here, I don’t see anywhere in the article where it is either SF or PIRA that have made the threat. In the main article the threat comes from someone calling themselves ‘Only I MaTTer’ not quite P. O’Neil.
    The McCartney girls then went on to say better vetting procedures were needed. I am sure anyone on this forum could post what they wanted as a one off without it being the view of anyone else here, AND escape any detection. Another way for the anti-republicans to get a dig in perhaps?

    This, as the McCartney’s claim and repeated by you, seems to have emanated from within short strand, are they/you therefore saying all people from short strand are in SF or PIRA?!

    I am not saying the McCartney girls did not receive threats, all I am asking is that I can see the evidence that they come from the Republican Movement.

  • Davros

    raff- what do you mean by the “republican movement”?
    It’s a flexible term. Do you limit it to those with an official affiliation in some way to either Sinn Féin and/or the IRA ? Do activities even by those officially linked to these organidsations have to be sanctioned in some way to count?

    It may seem like nit-picking, but there are important implications in several cases…

  • JGK

    Raff

    I see what you are saying. I wasn’t trying to state this article suggested the threat came SF/PIRA directly. Neither would I suggest that all the people of Short Strand are in SF or PIRA. Apologies if that was received.

    Evidence as to whether or not threats came from the Republican Movement, that is of course difficult. I have no direct evidence; who would have access? But there appears a lot of circumstantial:

    In the March P O’Neill Press Release one of the issues was that the sisters… “raised concerns about the intimidation of witnesses. The IRA’s position on this was set out in unambiguous and categoric terms on February 15 and February 25. Before and after this meeting with the family, the IRA gave direct assurances on their safety to three named individuals who the family believe were the targets of intimidation.”

    It seems bizarre that this should be discussed in such detail unless the intimidation was a fact?

    In their RTE Radio Interview – end February – (I have read) the sisters talk of how every-day intimidation is common from IRA members and that specifically those involved in Robert’s death ‘strutted’ around the Strand making sure others knew they were still around and that talking would not be good for them.

    Thirdly, why would the women say there was republican movement members involved in intimidation unless there was? What would their motive be? Surely having living in Short Strand all their lives they would know very well who was a member of what.
    Anyway I don’t offer this as damning proof just how the balance of evidence works with me.

    Finally, (and just in passing) it was interesting that on the Danny Morrison forum, the more the sisters kept talking about Robert and IRA involvement the more some people started to try to smear them… motives for standing for elections, taking money to travel from whom, them meeting Bush instead of Adams etc. I do think this is important; it is about the nature of what kind of republican movement represents the people that believe in a United Ireland.

    Regards, JGK

  • Zorro

    garret
    I assume that there was a political motive as there was throughout a very suspicious desire to criticise republicans especially in their trip to the USA

    Why?

    Are you serious or is this yet more sycophantic SF styled spin? If you are, aside from SF sycophants, you must the only person on the planet who thinks so! The objective view still holds and I restae my posting posting:-

    “The sisters reponse is a natural one and I assume would have been no different in fervour and determination if the murder of their brother had been committed in different circumstances. “

  • aquifer

    In the case of secret and wide ranging organisations which murder, and which maintain the means to do so again, we are entitled to suspect that any action that serves their interest has been carried out or sanctioned by them, including outright terror and intimidation.

    Some members and supporters of such organisations may feel or know this to be unjust for any one instance, but we know that many of them felt secrecy, murder and intimidation to be legitimate given their historical analysis. We also know that PIRA have on occassion lied, until they could lie no more.

    So maintaining the capacity to murder and to secretly terrify rob and maim has a political penalty.

    So it should.

    If the maintenance of this capacity had any prospective benefit in achieving unity among Irish people there would be a corresponding political benefit, but this is now unlikely.

  • An Ireland of Equals

    It is about the nature of what kind of republican movement represents the people that believe in a United Ireland.

    Excellent point, one which many internet republicans seem unable to grasp as they feign misunderstanding why others would revile them or blanch in disgust at their commentary. It has nothing to do with being unionist, or British, or anti-republican (in fact many of those most disgusted by such commentary would consider themselves republicans), and everything to do with alarm at the type of mentality, and vision for the future, that engenders such comments contains.

    It shows, much more clearly than the banal and meaningless platitudes espoused by leadership figures, that the society desired is extremely conformist; not only conformist but dictatorial: you must think like us or you are dammed. Those who step outside the boundaries are quickly punished, some violently, others via vicious character assassination, always consistently, repeatedly and with a zealousness that easily goes out of control and over the top. An Ireland of Equals? If that equality means everyone is to be forced to conform to some warped vision that this current body of the Republican Movement presents, perhaps. For tolerance shown to those who deviate does not exist.

    In fact that lack of tolerance makes a mockery of everything Republicanism stood for, especially in a case such as the murder of Robert McCartney. The platitudes indicate that support for the family is the party line and that the family are entitled to justice, but the reality demonstrates that a wider concept of justice does not exist in the Provisional world. For it is the guard dogs of the Provisionals who determine what is justice and the answer always is that it is the IRA who is just and merciful: they and their members can do no wrong. So who does anyone think they are questioning the Republican Movement? And thus, the enforcement begins.

    The blatant lies, the myth-making, the character assassination, the absolute refusal to countenance any alternative viewpoint, the willing blindness — is this the product of the state they want to create, to impose on everyone else? Orwellian is not the word for it.

  • spirit-level

    Excellent post AIOE
    Seems like a case here of shepherds managing the flock, but doing so in a wolfish manner.
    A good shepherd will not terrify his sheep.
    That’s ma sunday morning sermon 😉

  • garret

    An Ireland of Equals

    “For tolerance shown to those who deviate does not exist.”

    Address your comments to unionists NOT Irish republicans. The unionists are the ones who are intolerant / intransigent.

  • spirit-level

    “Its natural for Republicans to act in a defensive manner when attacked as most of our history has been spent in this fashion. I recognise that this savage murder of Robert McCartney has been used for political means. However, our reaction should have been complete compliance with the investigation and casting off immediately of all those involved. We allowed the movement to be tarnished by allowing the anti-republican agenda to focus on this ugly part of the republican family- cut it off and there ain’t nothing to tarnish anymore.”

  • An Ireland of Equals

    “For tolerance shown to those who deviate does not exist.”

    Address your comments to unionists NOT Irish republicans. The unionists are the ones who are intolerant / intransigent.

    Yes, sir, sorry, sir, it won’t happen again, sir. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us.

    Etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam.

    Must remember it is always them, never us.
    Self-flagellate, too late?
    Have I been identified
    as outside
    the border of acceptable?
    Condemned, verdict in:

    Your views, unpalatable
    Go quietly now without a fuss
    We repeat: don’t mess with us.
    Ours are guns that never rust.

    Bad poetry on a Sunday morning, ahhhhhhhhhhh. For that alone I should be punished I am sure!

  • garret

    “However, our reaction should have been complete compliance with the investigation.”

    PSNI. The PSNI investigation.

  • spirit-level

    garrett
    My view is you can’t pick and choose, like on a shopping trip, when you fancy working with the police, and when you don’t.
    As regards the mind control going on on both sides: its clear that keeping people in a constant state of fear pays dividends for the leadership, but not for the people.
    I would like to see the reversal of this fear.
    Perhaps only a popular revolt will achieve this.
    ie both sides republican and unionist rise up against their respective “in-house” oppressors.
    No longer fighting each other as previously, but together united against the tyranny of fear.

  • barnshee

    ” yet due to their past convictions a whole raft of trades and professions exclude them, plus their opportunity to travel freely is curtailed. “

    Tough shit-there is no excuse for sneaking up behind unarmed people and shooting them in the back of the neck- lying in wait to shoot (from a safe distance) a policeman or soldier- kidnapping and butchering perople to death -I`m not going to employ them (prod or mick) I refuse to work with them- I do not trust them -they can fester on the Dole for the rest of their lives.

    A failure to disclose convictions to get a job would produce instant dismissal. How in any event will they explain away the blanks in the CV. The University of Long Kesh don`t cut it.
    If you can`t do the time don`t do the crime. Let them look on it as a (Just?) price paid for their involvement in the struggle for freedom!!

  • thebabyjesus

    Just stop, this is pathetic!

  • Davros

    Barnshee – I don’t think these people deserve any special treatment compared to other people who have committed serious crimes, but I would look at it from an additional perspective. Young people are still being sucked into the paramilitary world by the various organisations. It will send a dreadful message to them if it’s announced that slates will be wiped clean – as if we are saying ‘do what you feel is right at the moment, it won’t have consequences for the rest of your life’.

  • spirit-level

    Davros and barnshee
    Have you not read, or just not understood the comments made : that it’s the ex-prisoners who are doing the good work in their communities to foster peace and stop the kids growing up joining paramilitary organisations !!!

  • Davros

    spirit-level – think about it mate .

    Some ex-prisoners are doing excellent work. Some aren’t. The one’s doing this excellent work ? Good on them, they OWE society big-time. So the fact that their slates haven’t been wiped clean obviously hasn’t stopped them doing good works, has it ? Quite a few of them should thank God or their lucky stars tthat they aren’t still behind bars where an awful lot of people think they still belong.

    If I was a common or garden murderer still behind bars and facing decades more in Jail I’d be pretty hacked off that someone like the Shankill bomber is out walking the streets and making money.

  • spirit-level

    Davs
    I’m just observing my right to be positive, that’s all.
    You know me 😉

  • Davros

    Sorry mate – I hope that didn’t sound antagonistic 🙂 I’m in favour of financial support being given to ex-prisoners’ organisations that make a positive contribution.

    One thing I meant to add – slate-wiping and amnesty for OTRs ain’t in the Belfast Agreement and it’s interesting that on the one hand SF tell us that nothing can be added to or taken away from the Agreement when it suits them but on the other hand have a shopping list they present every time
    they are negotiating ….

    TAL 😉

  • ssr

    1) ‘Surely having living in Short Strand all their lives they would know very well who was a member of what.’

    only paula and bridgeen live here

    2) I can’t speak for Mary here (so please, mary, correct me if I’m wrong),but I did not see anywhere in her post regarding Bert McCartney’s character (8.18) anything saying he deserved to die. I thought it came across as trying to make the point that people should be able to voice opinions against the McCartney’s and Devine without their opinion being treated as somewhat ‘second-class’ or unimportant, or as sf or ira propaganda.

    everyone has their faults, no-one is ‘whiter than white’

  • ssr

    ps, my 2) point was not a response to tgk (as 1) was, it was to a number of posters

  • Davros

    I did not see anywhere in her post regarding Bert McCartney’s character (8.18) anything saying he deserved to die.

    Not overtly, that’s true. Came across as the Rapist’s “what did she expect dressed like that?” sort of comment ….. why else do you think this “new handle” suddenly popped up and posted such a character assassination ?

  • Sol

    Good points posted by Stalin.

    Vodka!
    Comrade Sol

  • Comrade Stalin

    Raff, when was the IRA’s policy of the death penalty for touts rescinded ?

    You’re insulting the intelligence of people here if you are seriously trying to claim that, politely or otherwise, the IRA never threatens people. It’s very convenient to yell “prove it”, knowing that the claim is essentially something that can never be proved.

    “I am not saying the McCartney girls did not receive threats, all I am asking is that I can see the evidence that they come from the Republican Movement.”

    You’re asking for something that can’t be provided. If evidence for the threats did exist, what form do you think would it take ?

    I believe the McCartney’s version of events because I don’t have any reason to believe that they have an objective of causing political damage to the republican movement. I don’t think they have become unionists and I don’t think they are paid lapdogs of the British. Certainly a side-effect of their campaign is that the republican movement will be and is being damaged politically damaged; but would you advocate that any person hold back from seeking justice just because the neighbourhood political party will lose votes over it ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    ssr,

    Mary accused Robert McCartney of being quite a bad person. It isn’t the first time that this accusation has been aired. Generally if there is a discussion about someone being murdered, and someone interjects to say that the dead person was some sort of criminal, abuser or otherwise nasty person, it sounds awful like they’re trying to suggest that the murder took place for a good reason, don’t you think ?

    People quite rightly get upset when, during a discussion about the murder of Pat Finucane or Rosemary Nelson for example, other people bring up their alleged connections with the IRA, or his closeness to the people they did legal work for. This is the same thing.

    To me there seems to be a lot of double standards at work here.

  • garret

    “To me there seems to be a lot of double standards at work here. “

    This is the only part of your post I actually agree with. But the double standards are on the unionist side. When did they ever care about an Irish catholic unless they can make political capital out of it?

  • foreign correspondent

    ‘But the double standards are on the unionist side.’

    Come off it, a lot of people on BOTH sides in N.I. have got Ph.D’s in the science of applying double standards.
    Murder is wrong. There can be no qualifying that statement, nor justifying or explaining away the statements of anyone who attempts to imply that one particular murder victim is slightly less worthy of our compassion than any other, because any society in which a large number of people think in such an aberrant way is basically screwed.

  • bertie

    What most murder victims families seem to want most is justice and that they are all equally entitled to, regardless of the circumstances. Compassion is a secondary issue. It is not something that can be demanded IMO.

  • Send them to Italy, not Hell

    Raff, when was the IRA’s policy of the death penalty for touts rescinded ?

    Sometime around the outing of Scappaticci, it appears.

  • ulsterman

    Some one writes that the days of committing this kind of brutality are over. Get a grip will you. The 1998 GFA released into the community a pack of vile murderers and psychopaths. What about that girl Dorrian. Not one mention of her now. Off course her death was not being used by the establishment to bash SF and a money making scam by McCartneys sisters.

    Live in the real world will you. An unfortunate fight broke out in a pub. Hopefully in the trial the real truth will come out and not just the lies that were peddled. McCartney was no Mr Innocent. So hopefully the lies and hypocrisy of the whole story will come to light.

  • garret

    A fight broke out in a pub. That is my take on it too. Get over it everyone.

  • TAFKABO

    I think ulsterman forgot that he was supposed to be a rabid anti catholic prod.

    I guess a sockpuppets life is never easy.

  • mary

    when i pointed out that robert mc cartney was not the good person that the sisters and others are making out to be, did not mean i think he deserved to die.

    i do think that he might have been just as capable of doing on other’s as was done on him.

  • martin

    why would anyone in the republican movement want to protect and cover up for a family which seems to be riddled with informers and british agents provocatuer,not to mention the allegations of child sex abuse and statutory rape.

    will the British government give justice to the members of IRA murdered by their agent in the Iras internal security unit.

    they should have the decency to exonerate these volunteers wrongfully accused by their plant of informing- maybe the family mentioned above are getting legal advice from their inlaw stakeknifes team of handlers

  • mary

    “why would anyone in the republican movement want to protect and cover up for a family which seems to be riddled with informers and british agents provocatuer,not to mention the allegations of child sex abuse and statutory rape.”

    allegations is all there is give me fact

  • cladycowboy

    For me its a bit like the Catholic Church paedophile fiasco. There are those who attack the Church always and use such events to tarnish the organisation. It was the fault of the Church in not dealing with the scandals in a rightful way, handing over the paedophiles to the law and good riddance, that led to erosion in support for the Church.
    This is what has been happening to the Republican movement with regards to this case. Kick out the perverted to save the movement. To suggest that McCartney is no saint is like the pervy priest saying the child displayed sexualised behaviour.
    I do not want my movement tarnished by the actions of a few ‘lifestyle republicans’.

  • Davros

    Good post CC.

  • martin

    MARY,

    DOES THE WORDs RUBY & scap mean anything to you

    yourself and garrett- who described me and bill and macca as hard core unionists and loyalists are strange ones,how about the name Notarantonio-SORRY more than likely wrong spelling.

  • martin

    MARY,

    DOES THE WORDs RUBY & SCAP mean anything to you

    yourself and Napper- who described me and bill and macca as hard core unionists and loyalists are strange ones,how about the name Notarantonio-SORRY more than likely wrong spelling.

  • TAFKABO

    “allegations is all there is give me fact”

    Sorry mary, I though that since you were happy to post unsubstantiated allegations about Robert McCartney that you were happy to accept the same level of proof against republicans, no?

  • martin

    my APPOLOGIES TO GARRETT ,put your name in first reply to mary instead of nappers my mistake

  • martin

    well said clady cowboy

  • mary

    I knew Ruby and I know scap I also knew Robert Mc Cartney. Because of this i think I would have a better knowlage than reading anything in the papers

  • martin

    when you next talk to Scap tell him that I and an awful lot of others hope to sone read in your posts that you knew him too,how does he spend the judas money Thatcher paid him for being a rat

  • Davros

    I knew Ruby and I know scap I also knew Robert Mc Cartney

    Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory …..

    And I’m the Queen of Sheba 😉

  • bertie

    Davros

    I knew there was something special about you.

  • mary

    MARY,

    just out of curiosity which of the three–Ruby,scap,Robert mc C.

    did you like the best -in order of preference please,and give explanations as to reasons if you have no objections that is ,as only knowing of them from the news myself i would like to have an insiders knowlege of what these personalities were like=====I dont doubt for a moment that you knew them well

  • mary

    seeing you asked I know scap he is a family friend. Big Ruby was one of the best friends any one could ask for. as for Mc Cartney i did not know him that well I used to live in the strand and seen him about and with all small communitys you see and hear alot about people.

  • steve

    There has been very little mention of the part Devine played in the incidents inside the bar.

    Did he not attack a patron with a broken bottle prior to being attacked himself.?

  • raff

    To c.stalin (sigh).

    OK now LISTEN/READ CAREFULLY. You seem to keep misreading my posts. You are either very poor at manipulating peoples words to support your own argument, or so wrapped up in yourself that you think you know the inner workings of people.

    I did not say the McCartney girls were touts, I asked for proof that the threats were from SF or PIRA, you did not give it, I take it you cannot prove it! – I did not make the allegation so I don’t have to.

    As for the sisters being paid lapdogs, AGAIN I DID NOT SAY THIS. I will pretend you are doing this on purpose to try and drag me into some petty argument or other.

    Thank god people realise that this was a pub fight that’s all, certainly more brutal than the vast majority but none the less a fight. Yes I know a man died but to portray this as an act of aggression by the PIRA is so typical of the anti republican elements within this society.

    As for the “well they shouldn’t have covered up argument” – these people were in a group together so we can take it as read that the alleged attackers/coverer uppers,(cant think of an appropriate word) knew each other, and, were helping each other out. Again to say this shows the PIRA are still active, etc, is a misleading line of reasoning.

    Re: the prisoners, they, whether we like it or not, are not all psychopathic sociopaths. Some were young men and women caught up in conflict others genuinely thought they were trying to obtain noble goals, (and yes some were thugs and criminals). To keep them on the fringes of society as many ‘mainstream’ people want will not benefit our society; in fact I would suggest that a desire to keep punishing people is not a very healthy attitude.

  • Mark Baxter

    Mary / Martin

    Just read the posts above (8.42 and 8.59), did you forget which name you were using when asking yourself to answer your own question?

    As TAFKABO said “I guess a sockpuppets life is never easy.”

  • TAFKABO

    Raff

    Am I correct in interpreting your post as telling us that it would be wrong to think the statement “this is IRA business”, issued by members of the IRA, as somehow indiciative of being IRA activity?

  • raff

    Oh sweet Jesus, Please people, do not try to read between the lines, do not assume I am saying something other than what I type, what I have put down is what I am saying.

    “this is IRA business”, issued by members of the IRA, as somehow indicative of being IRA activity?

    I stated that this was not an attack by the PIRA but rather a bar fight. It BECAME PIRA business when it was claimed that PIRA volunteers were involved in the fight.

  • bill

    According to a report in a sunday newspaper today,Brendan Devine was involved in a vicious assault on the brother of the man who is charged with his attempted murder.

    The incident is alleged to have taken place in a city centre bar during the week.

    Mr Devine was previously very close to this man,having been jointly accused with this person of stabbing two bouncers outside a bar in Belfast a couple of years ago.

    The fall out seems to have occured when the two were questioned about the stabbing.

    Charges were dropped due to the lack of evidence.Eye witnesses etc.

  • JGK/blue-kite

    Raff

    It is a contentious issue and it is a difficult one for supporters of SF in particular, especially as it has in the last years been trying to make the IRA sound like an honourable group. I wont’ comment on that, just want to pick out some interesting threads.

    1) If IRA members were involved in the fight that does not mean it was a sanctioned PIRA punishment. As much as we might detest murder bar fights do get out of hand. I don’t think we know either way what really happened…

    2) The intimidation issue is another thing, in that the sisters talked to the IRA and the IRA stated they were dealing with it… but still we don’t know if they are dealing with intimidation from rogue IRA members, some members active (ie they are admitting guilt) or some other residents on their patch.

    3) Statements by P O’Neill and SF on this issue must be taken with a pinch of salt, like all PR. Defenders of the IRA and SF have seemed to have clung to the words of these releases without reading between the lines. (General comment, not directed at you by the way.)

    3) The original statement offering to get rid of the perpetrators in traditional fashion was a major PR mistake.

    I still think the key – and the essential problem for SF- is what kind of group, what kind of people, represent republicanism and nationalism. Should the IRA still be meting out justice in this fashion? Should the various Unionist groups be doing the same on their patch? Is this what we want?

    Cheers
    JGK/Blue-Kite

  • Comrade Stalin

    “Mary”, McCartney’s sister and partner have been on TV and in the media. I guess they knew him probably better than you did. Seeing how you’re anonymous and could be anyone, whereas their identity is pretty well established, why should anyone believe you and not them ? Whoever you are, all you are engaging in here is smear and to be honest it’s a bit sickening.

    Raff, we seem to have some sort of comprehension problem here, though I can’t say for sure whether it’s me or you. I didn’t say that you said (phew) that the McCartneys were touts. I merely pointed out that historically, the IRA has a pretty well established record of dealing with people who make the mistake of going to the authorities with information, which is directly pertinent to the disputed issue of whether the IRA truly threatened anyone or not. I doubt they went to all that trouble cleaning up Maginnesses just for people to pop round to Musgrave St and tell all the next day.

    “I asked for proof that the threats were from SF or PIRA, you did not give it, I take it you cannot prove it! – I did not make the allegation so I don’t have to.”

    Yes. But you avoided my question. If the allegation were true, what proof would exist ? How could anyone prove that the IRA threatened people ? Shouting “prove it” seems a bit ridiculous when no proof is possible. It’s not like the IRA writes their threats on official notepaper is it ?

    “As for the sisters being paid lapdogs, AGAIN I DID NOT SAY THIS. I will pretend you are doing this on purpose to try and drag me into some petty argument or other.”

    I am not addressing my accusations at you in particular but in general at some of the points being made by you and other people. There are allegations that the sisters have taken this campaign beyond a quest for justice for the murdered man. The allegations, as far as I can tell, have no basis and are merely an attempt by some people (not necessarily you) to engage in smear tactics.

    “Thank god people realise that this was a pub fight that’s all, certainly more brutal than the vast majority but none the less a fight. “

    It wasn’t just a pub fight old chap. In normal parts of the world the police are called, evidence is gathered and arrests are made. In this case a precise plan snapped into place and an extensive forensic cleanup operation took place.

    It’s funny how pub fights involving RA men always seem to end up with someone getting murdered and a pub full of people all mysteriously managing not to have seen anything that might have led up to it.

    “Yes I know a man died but to portray this as an act of aggression by the PIRA is so typical of the anti republican elements within this society.”

    It was an act of aggression by PIRA members who don’t like being slabbered to, how can you seriously deny it ?

    I don’t know where to start with this comment. It appears that you have a problem with the fact that when an organization’s members go around killing people for no reason – and then clean up the murder scene and obstruct the justice process – that they become anti-republican. There are a lot of things about life that you better start getting used to, one of them is that people don’t react terribly well to having people in their neighbourhood killed.

    “the alleged attackers/coverer uppers,(cant think of an appropriate word) knew each other, and, were helping each other out. Again to say this shows the PIRA are still active, etc, is a misleading line of reasoning.”

    I can’t think of a better definition of the word “active” than when a group of people under the same banner with the same objectives act to preserve in what they perceive to be their own interest, can you ?

    Your point on the prisoners I don’t have such a problem with. A lot of them would have been released by now anyway so it was a small concession to make, and it seems that the vast majority of them have been staying out of trouble.

  • Comrade Stalin

    A couple of points that have occurred to me lately.

    – If a British Army soldier shot a person dead, and the British government subsequently said that the individual had not acted under orders and was to be dishonourably dismissed but *not* be put on trial, does anyone believe that Sinn Fein would regard this as a fair position ?

    [I sure as hell wouldn’t. But to listen to some people contributing to this discussion, it seems that when members of certain organizations kill people and then conspire to cover it up, we are expected to put up with whatever justice that organization deems appropriate.]

    – I remember when C. McWilliams shot Billy Wright dead several years ago. Prior to that shooting, McWilliams was regarded as some sort of liability by the organizations he was a member of and I believe he was even expelled by them. After the shooting, McWilliams became some sort of hero and those organizations were anxious to claim that he was one of their own.

    The reason why I am mentioning this is to try to provoke discussion on the command structure of the paramilitary organizations we’re talking about, and this concept of an operation being authorized or unauthorized. Sometimes, it looks like much of what is done in an organization’s name is not authorized centrally at all, which allows the organization to claim it when it is favourable, or disclaim it when it is unfavourable.

  • mary

    why is it so hard for people to beleive that no one give any orders to kill anyone that night.

    events happened that was unfortunite but it happened. no order but a fight that went badly wrong.

  • TAFKABO

    “why is it so hard for people to beleive that no one give any orders to kill anyone that night.”

    Because there are claims to the contrary, and the course of events that night, tends to favour those claims.

    Not only this, but some of the people asking us to believe that there were no orders to kill are the same people who have lied, smeared and generally tried to hamper the course of natural justice since that night.

    Instead of asking why it is so hard for us to believe, try asking yourself why on earth we would believe a thing you said?

  • JGK/blue-kite

    Staling, cameraden…

    I have been out of the picture for a while. I am interested in this forensic cover-up stuff. Where is this from? Have PSNI spoken of it?

    Cheers
    BK

  • Mick

    I fear this conversation is straying into difficult legal territory – since a charge has already been made. Pending specific legal advice, I’m going to suspend conversation here.

    We’ll keep you up to date with the McCartney murder case, I’d ask other bloggers to close the commenting facility if they chose to report on this particular topic.

    And a Red Card to Ulsterman, for repeatedly playing the man. In this case the McCartney family.