Smoke signals say..

Still no decision from the Vatican.. but here’s a post on it anyway. John at Irish Eagle has an interesting, as always, round-up of reactions to Cardinal Ratzinger’s campaign speech yesterday.. while everyone’s waiting. If you want to watch as well, then there are several options. Vatican TV has a live camera on St Peter’s Square (the live-feed is in a variety of formats) or, by way of the Guardian NewsBlog, the Washington Post provides a close-up view of any new smoke signals.[RealPlayer req.]
Update WHITE SMOKE!!
Update Part 2 and it’s Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.. now Pope Benedict XVI.. hmmm.

  • spirit-level
  • spirit-level

    If the Catholics gave up their religion, and the unionists gave up the Union.
    We’d have a Free United Ireland Presbyterian Church and State..
    That’s got to be the way forward……..
    any takers?

  • Alarmed

    Ratzinger.

    Bloody Ratziner!

    Right that’s it – Where’s Big Ian’s nearest church!

  • Keith M

    As an agnostic who likes to see the catholic church becoming increasingly irrelevant to most people, I delighted with this choice!. See as this was the guy who was in the Hitler Youth, I wonder if all the altar boys will now had to wear lederhosen.

  • spirit-level

    All this talk of disbandment:
    We need to disband the Catholic Church, disband the Union, disband the IRA, disband the Monarchy.
    And that’s just for starters.
    I want realpolitick. Berlin Wall stuff.
    From my padded cell in broadmoor, the lads have declared me as the new pope.Hoorah!
    So bless yas all.. I’m planning a visit to your wee city of Belfast as soon as release papers can be obtained,or forged πŸ™‚

  • Alan McDonald

    My wife has been predicting the coming of an American Catholic church for years. Ratzinger may be just what the schism needed. How long before he’s being called Pope Benedict Arnold here in the USA?

  • El papa

    Benedict XVI (Ratzinger).. (let’s keep the trolling to a minimum – ed Pete Baker) Absolutely (Mick)!

    Listen guys this is not a graffitti wall. If that’s what you want find someone else’s site to scribble on!

  • MIck

    He was 78 last Saturday. Looks like a holding operation. RTE: the continuity candidate.

  • spirit-level

    Right El papa, but Keith M funnier.

  • Davros

    must admit – Ratzinger ? But John Paul had it sorted – after all most of the cardinals were appointed by John Paul. However it will allow continuity which is important and as the new pope faces a huge challenge in following John Paul, it will be easier as Benedict is well versed in the minutiae of the previous papacy and is an excellent administrator. John Paul’s weakness was, according to an interview on the radio, that he was a poor administrator.
    There’s a huge mass of inertia in the Church , so even a radical Pope would have struggled to shift the church’s direction. A transitional Pope ill make things easier and it’s unlikely, in view of Benedicts age, that his will be a long papacy.

  • Young Fogey

    The American Catholic Church (both in terms of hierarchy and laity) is relatively Conservative in European terms. How will this play in France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria… wouldn’t imagine too well. The German and Austrian laity have been close to open revolt at least twice in the past ten years, and JP2 was a shrinking violet compared to Ratzinger.

  • spirit-level

    excellent administrator Mr Davros you mean the Catholic Killing machine… this is not a time for sobriety but OUTRAGE.

  • SeamusG

    I should have known that the Germans always come good in the big tournaments.
    That’s William Hill up Β£15 and me down Β£15.
    But my prayers are with the new boss.

  • Davros

    excellent administrator Mr Davros you mean the Catholic Killing machine… this is not a time for sobriety but OUTRAGE.

    What are you talking about ?

  • peter

    Very sad day. The former Hitler youth league member and head of the Spanish Inquisition has been elected Pope.

    By choosing a bigoted fascist the cardinals have shown their ignorance of the state of their church.

    And the walls camw tumbling down.

    Very sad day indeed.

  • maca

    Spirit level, have you been smoking something or what’s wrong with you today?

    He’s not the guy I would have picked but it was obvious they’d go for an interim Pope and I guess he was the man for the job. It’s a tough job he has on his hands now, I hope he can do some good.

  • Jeremy

    it was too much to expect a liberal candidate would come out of the conclave especially considering the way Benedict (!) has stacked it with conservatives already with John Paul 2. I think we can safely assume the next pope will be a conservative as well. 10 years time the princes of the church will be about as rightwing as the 13th century ones. Ratzingers regarded as a conservative. Whats he going to do with the spanish church and their defiance of the vatican re condoms etc.
    Really agree with peter that this is the church failing to realise that it needs to act quickly to retain influence in the western world.

  • spirit-level

    maca I’m ok thanks but read my first link:
    “To hell with the Pope”
    Mr Davros Eichmann was an excellent administrator
    that’s my point.
    But just to keep things cool:
    May God Bless this chap and guide his ways.

  • maca

    “head of the Spanish Inquisition”
    Spanish Inquisition? 1478-1834? Or do you mean the more recent Monthy Python version?

  • peteb

    For the benefit of those who haven’t looked at the links in the original post..

    A round-up of views from earlier

    And I’ll just reiterate what Mick has already said.. “this is not a graffitti wall. If that’s what you want find someone else’s site to scribble on!”

  • mucher

    I agree with Peter (06.13pm)it is a disaster. A Hitler Youth member and Nazi army soldier is not what the church needs at this time or ever. This is the man who said it was more moral to pass on the AIDS viris than to use a condom! He also told Jews their only salavation was as Christians and that Protestants clergy are not recognised by him.
    The other cardinals obviously agree so I think its time those of us who don’t agree to leave. Let them have the Church and let it fall.

  • SeamusG

    Mucher, I don’t think he had much choice about the Hitler Youth and he chose to desert from the German army – I imagine something that could have warranted death.
    Before condemning him on reputation, why not see what he turns out like. In football terms, think of attacking players who have gone on to become defence obsessed managers and vice versa. Give him a chance.

  • peter

    no maca, he was head of the congregation of the faith. This,everyone knows is the replacement for the despised Inquisition.

  • Davros

    AFAIK Seamus when Benedict was a lad one was automatically put into the Hitler youth.

  • PaddyCanuck

    I find the consternation that Ratzinger has been elected as pope as verging on the ridiculous…

    People seem to be annoyed, that the pope is a catholic!

    Do people really think that the pope should give way to modern liberalism, suddenly open his arms to abortion and divorce, gay marriage and women priests. Should he get all Anglican, and start to question if the ressurrection really happened?

    The church is not a democratic institution, the role of the papacy is to safeguard Roman Catholic orthodoxy, the church is afterall the only true and aplostlistic church.

    It seems to me that many people seem to be proposing a protestant pope!

  • mucher

    Thanks Seamus, yes he did desert but only in 1944 when the writing was on the wall. Not everyone who refused to join Hitler Youth was shot or even punished. Ratziner is a fascist and deserves no
    chance, he has condemmed practically everyone, even Pope John Paul 2 did’nt escape his wrath. He hates Jews, Protestants, Liberation theologists,
    feminists, Progressives, Liberals.
    Well at least we won’t have to worry about him coming to visit us. I can’t see a million turning out to sing “He’s got the whole world in his hands” at that Nazi.

  • spirit-level

    PC It’s refreshing to know that you’re blinkers are not just about republicanism, but that they extend further.
    Was it Da that told you:
    “The Roman Catholic Church is the one true church.”
    Have you in all honesty, please, ever questioned that statement?

  • Jimmy_Sands

    “He also told Jews their only salavation was as Christians “

    Are you suggesting that this applied only to Jews?

    Wanting a liberal is one thing, but some people here seem to believe a non-catholic ought to have been appointed.

  • peter

    Paddy, This Pope has no respect for other reliigions are people. What right does he have to castigate gay people for example.?

    Humility and respect for others is what the catholic church needs. It certainly does not need a pompous ass, obsessed with doctrine. There are many other religions in the world and they must respect each other.

    Given his age, his papacy should thankfully be short but I cannot see him doing any good but further dividing a church which at times seems destined for oblivion.

    The moments should have been seized for a progressive pope with at least a small view of what is happening in the church at large. Somebody locked away in the luxurious vatican surroundings for twenty years writing bigoted tripe will not have this insight

    In the immortal words of Shelley, the cardinals acted as leaders that neither see, nor know nor care.

  • Alan2

    Heres a good article on the man:-
    a href=”http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html”>here

    Paddycannuck..yes its absurd he is standing up for Catholic values and doctrines….if you dont agree well then you are a Protestant heretic and deserve to be burned at the stake πŸ˜‰

  • PaddyCanuck

    Spirit Level,

    Fisrt of all I turned my back on catholism a long time ago, so your attack is unwarranted.

    My point is, is that the pope is a catholic! what is the surprise there.

    The part about true and apolostic church, thats waht I said in mass for years, its no surprise that the pope thinks the catholic church is the true and apostolic church!

    As fo the Nazi jibes, people should get their facts right:

    “Joseph Ratzinger was born in Marktl am Inn, in Bavaria, the son of a police officer who was staunchly anti-Nazi. In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and settled in the town of Traunstein. When Ratzinger turned 14 in 1941, he was required by law to join the Hitler Youth, but according to his biographer John Allen he was not an enthusiastic member. He requested to be taken off the rolls and reportedly refused to attend a single meeting. In 1943, at the age of 16 he was, along with the rest of his class, drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, responsible for the guarding of a BMW plant outside Munich. He was then sent for basic infantry training and was posted to Hungary, where he worked setting up anti-tank defences until fleeing in April 1944 (an offense punishable by death). In 1945 he was briefly held in an Allied POW camp. By June he was released, and he and his brother (Georg) entered a Catholic seminary.”

  • Gum

    Along with all the boys his age, he was OBLIGED BY LAW to join Hitler Youth.

    He was DRAFTED into military service – refusal = death.

    He desserted, risking penalty of death.

    I was hoping for someone else too, but this isnt a graffiti site. If we could keep the sectarianism to other posts please it would be appreciated.

  • spirit-level

    Just to clear up the Jewish Question:
    Romans11 vs: 25-32
    Explains clearly that All Israel will be saved.
    “Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. In other words they’ve been hypnotised into unbelief so as we may enter. Quite sweet really.

  • mucher

    I am truly sorry Pete, but I thought “playing the man” only applied to other posters not the new Pope! Jimmy there are 151 Cardinals, are you really suggesting that the only man they could find is this man of rather extreme views? Is there no-one else they could have chosen? Was John Paul such a libral that they had to replace him with the opposite?
    Would you be out in Phoenix park to welcome him if he comes a calling?

  • Jimmy_Sands

    Mucher,

    Who is this “they”? He was, of course, chosen by God.

  • spirit-level

    Hey Paddy good on you, join the free thinkers.
    I’m no-ones lap dog, can you extend the metaphor and be critical of republicanism?
    In essence political support is like singing from a hymn sheet, which also needs to be questioned.

  • peteb

    Apology accepted, mucher.. and even the new Pope is covered by the rule πŸ™‚

  • peter

    The problem is Paddy that people will not look at the facts. Jews look on him with disdain. Its all very well writing that he did not want to join the nazis etc but he did, whether it was by force or not.

    His main problem however is his uncompromising conservatism. The church in the western world is hit by scandal after scandal. Yet the church says and does nothing.His writings on homosexuality hark back to the dark ages and why would any christian man want to make peoples lives harder?.

    I am shocked that the drift has been allowed to continue. As far as I can see its back to the future for the catholic church. People will just walk with their feet in disgust.

    Something is eating away at the heart of the R,C church. The cardinals have done nothing to ease the dire straights of their church. I think the very fact that this Pope was immediately referred to as a Nazi speaks volumes for the way he will be viewed by the wider world.

  • Gum

    Spirit-level –

    whats your problem? So you dont like the church? Fine. If you could manage to show a little respect to your fellow Slugger posters who do it would be appreciated. Im “no-ones lap dog” either – but I can still be a “free thinker” while respecting the views of others.

  • peter

    A general warning has already been given, ‘peter’

    Keep the grafitti off-site! – ed Pete Baker

    As I said this all just shows the dire straights the RC church is in.

  • spirit-level

    Gum
    I have to speak out in opposition to the hypnotism/illusion ( false religion )of the Roman Catholic Church.
    Its my firm belief that Ian Paisley is correct on spiritual matters of faith and salvation, but incorrect on temporal matters as regards Ireland.

  • Alan2

    The thing that struck me was his age. He`s 78.

  • spirit-level

    peter I think Jimmy was being satirical πŸ™‚

  • Jimmy_Sands

    SL,

    Not entirely. I think it is a mistake to seek to analyse this in the terms one would normally reserve to describe, say, the election of a political leader. If you accept the faith, then this is an inspired (literally) decision, and the popularity or otherwise of the decision is neither here nor there. Also, at the risk of stating the obvious, he is concerned with the essential truth of the Church’s teaching, not how hard a sell it might be.

  • mucher

    Hi Jimmy, again you’re right. The Pope is supposed to be the choice of the Holy Spirit who directs the Cardinals as to how to vote. Of course if it really was the Holy Spirit who choose then the simple answer would be to put all the names into a hat or mitre and pick out one name and he becomes the Pope. But of course its all politics these days not like the days of old!(Joke)

  • maca

    Peter
    “he was head of the congregation of the faith. This,everyone knows is the replacement for the despised Inquisition.”

    You said he was head of the Spanish Inquisition. The only one I know of during his time was the Monthy Python one. Was there another one i’m not aware of? Please enlighten me.

    FYI: Ratzinger was the Vatican’s Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The previous Pope also held this title.

    Also, for your information, he didn’t “join” the Nazis. He was 11 when the war started and 14 when he was forced briefly into the Hitler youth, it was compulsory!
    Did you also know he deserted from the army in 44 and ended up briefly in a prisoner of war camp?

    SL
    “Its my firm belief that Ian Paisley is correct on spiritual matters of faith”

    It’s my first belief that Paisley is the last person you should look to for guidance or any kind. πŸ˜‰

  • Gum

    Spirit-level,

    I respect Ian Paisley, the Free Presbyterian Church and its members. I would ask that you do the same for other faiths. I would never mock Ian Paisley for his beliefs, and I certainly would never say “to hell with the leader of the Free Presbyterian Church”

  • spirit-level

    Jimmy
    “the essential truth of the Church’s teaching”
    we need the Bible not Romes made up stuff.
    maca
    Paisley speaks the truth on scriptural authority, not much else I agree πŸ™‚

    Cor, where’s Stalford when I need him LOL
    I disagree with his 100% on the status on Norn Iron, but you gotta give it to the Proddies when it comes to biblical exegesis.

  • spirit-level

    Sorry Gum I was being provocative’ didn’t mean to offend anyone personally.

  • Alan McDonald

    It’s interesting that the UTV bio for Benedict differs somewhat from others I’ve read. Particulary, it says he deserted in May 1945, not 1944, and was imprisoned by US soldiers.

    It also says, “In 1981, Cardinal Ratzinger was appointed Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) – an organisation once known as the Inquisition – and has since stamped his rigorous theological conservatism on the Church.”

  • spirit-level

    Seriously folks, as the back drop to all this is dead-lock in Norn Iron. Would it be constructive to suggest us Irish,( moi ) trade Catholicism in return for a Protestant United Ireland.
    That way we both ( prods caths ) get something.
    I am being serious here.
    Talk to me…..

  • mucher

    Alan, it says the same on the Irish Times site. I presume in 1945 the writing was on the wall and it was a smart move. (Is that O.K. Pete?) By the way he is also reported to be against multiculturism and was opposed to Turkey joining the E.U. not because of its human rights record but because of its religion.

  • SeamusG

    From President McAleese’s statement:
    “All Irish men and women, whatever their tradition, will wish him well. He will have the prayers and good wishes of the Christian people of Ireland”
    …she obviously doesn’t come on Slugger…LOL

  • Chris Gaskin

    A very sad day

    I have already offended some of my friends by referring to the new El Papa as a……perhaps its beat I not say πŸ˜‰

    I like many other wavering Catholics had hoped this papacy could be used to follow more closely Vatican 2, how wrong were we

    Paddy

    You spoke of a “Protestant pope”

    Why not allow priests to marry?

    It’s not god’s law but the churches designed to save them money.

    I will pray that the new Pontiff turns away from the conservative ethos that is crippling the Church, I am not hopeful that this will be the case.

    A lot of Ratzingers views on Moral issues are nothing short of bigoted and now as supreme pontiff they are without question

    A very sad day!

  • mucher

    Chris, I agree with you and i am not even a devout Catholic, more a case of whatever you’re having yourself. How do you think all those poor nuns and priests who work in the third world will feel tonight? Or those who work with AID victims and others on the fringe of society. No place for them in the new Pope’s church. Time to leave me thinks.

  • Solomon

    Well all I can say is good luck to him

  • spirit-level

    Ahh Cheer up Chris
    Become a Prod like me , you really get to know your saviour personally.
    That makes the campaign for a United Ireland better, now that we ( ex-catholics) concede the point.. and have cleared up doctrinal matters.
    It makes unionism morally illegitimate, they can’t win that arguement anymore.
    I join with them and the Orange flame of Salvation in Christ, and invite them to the Green freedoms of a temporal united land, where they’ll be well treated and respected.
    We can pack up our troubles and dance together.
    They got the religion we got the geography.
    Let’s call the whole thing off and go for a pint.

  • spirit-level

    exactly mucher bless ya

  • maca

    Honestly, spirit level, you’re scaring me today. What ARE you on? πŸ˜‰

  • spirit-level

    maca I really want to break down barriers that’s where i’m coming from.. its a sweet thing I promise you. I’m bricking it too πŸ™‚ but keeping ahead of my fears as far as poss. Me Good

  • jack

    I am so disapointed I wanted cardinal secola so we could sing things go better with pope secola things go better with pope

  • spirit-level

    maca I’ve spent my life wrestling with these issues, as have many; and I have a vision, a good vision , a healing vision. That is worthwhile to pursue. I seek to persuade, and appeal to what’s best in man. That’s a bit scary.
    What’s more scary is doing nothing, saying nothing, remaining in stalement, entrenched positions. Fear breeds, losers win.. nothing happens ,we’re all disapointed and sad..you know the score.. I refuse to submit to fear

  • Chris Gaskin

    “Ahh Cheer up Chris
    Become a Prod like me”

    LOL, it’s actually something I have thought about

    I doubt however that the Free P’s would allow someone like me to join πŸ˜‰

  • spirit-level

    well chris I dunno i think you would be welcomed its good to be a prod and and irish free stater..I’ve had alot of respect.
    They actually soften once you’re in , the irish thing with them is less frightening than is reported. They do prefer love than hate???
    I’ve met some good prods

  • spirit-level

    They , the unionists, just won’t be bullied into a united Ireland. There are other ways.. Gerry Adams recognises this. I wish him god speed.

  • Mick

    I see yet another bit of thread drift coming up here!

    I’m amazed at the vitriol that was initially pushed in Ratzinger’s direction by more than a few. But not (it should be noted) from our unionist posters!

    Some judicial pruning of the more offensive posts has definately helped get things on track. But we should not have to spend hours watching conversations just trying to keep them within the ball not man rule.

    That’s your job as commenters.

    It would be a shame to see the comment zones close simply because of a mass abandonment of civility. But if this continues and we don’t see a significant upping of the game all round, that drastic measure may become necessary.

  • Alan McDonald

    Mick,

    Just a request for clarification. I understand the ball not man rule to apply to other commenters and not to the person who is the subject of the thread. Am I correct?

  • peteb

    You could have asked me, Alan πŸ˜‰

    My interpretation is that it relates to keeping to the topic.. and, in a situation such as this, any accusations against an individual must be backed up by evidence.

  • Alan McDonald

    Pete,

    I’m sorry I didn’t ask you. What does a situation such as this mean? The bulk of your comment would suggest that the rule is not limited to the other commenters but does include the subject.

  • peteb

    Generally speaking, Alan, the topic is accepted as being what an article linked is about.. that’s the ball.

    Where the ‘playing the man’ comes in, apart from other posters IMHO, is when the criticism of that article includes criticism of the person writing the article.

    ‘In this situation’ applies where the criticism may be about the topic, in this circumstance the new Pope, but isn’t about fact, instead it is about accusations that have already been asserted and rebuted.

  • Mick

    Alan, Pete has it right.

    In this case, you can attack the politics of the Pope, if you wish, but attacking the man himself is (at best) a conflation of man and ball.

    If that’s not being too canonical! πŸ™‚

  • spirit-level

    Sometimes I feel a titled post can succumb and give way to ” the platonic sense of under-lying form”. Therefore, if the debate moves in a civil sense to a deeper mode or question , that’s all to the good.

  • Alan McDonald

    Pete,

    I think I can live (and have lived) within those guidelines. After update Part 2, Ratzinger was the subject. I certainly agree that playing the man includes the article writer as well as the commenters.

    The touchy area is where you speak of “accusations that have already been asserted and rebuted.” Surely, all of the threads on Slugger include nothing but this. In fact, I could say that none of the threads are “about fact” as you put it, but about conflicting opinion.

    So, here’s my last two cents. I just heard George W Bush say good things about the new pope. That’s a kiss of death, as far as I’m concerned.

  • peteb

    The “touchy area”, Alan, is a source of constant conflict.

    I was merely stating my own opinion on the subject.. which I try to enforce when I can πŸ˜‰

  • Alan McDonald

    Pete and Mick,

    I do applaud your attempts to promote civility. It makes posting here much more rewarding than other sites.

    Thanks to both of you.

  • Vera

    “I just heard George W Bush say good things about the new pope. That’s a kiss of death, as far as I’m concerned.”

    Yup. As I said on the other thread, evangelical protestants in America (the Republican Religious Right) are gonna love this pope. American Catholics on the other hand…

  • spirit-level

    I wonder if any of these clergymen know themselves.. idiots

  • Alan McDonald

    Vera,

    There is a scary coalition of right wing religionists here in the USA. It’s all cloaked in piety, but it’s nothing but power politics. One right wing Catholic spokesman is William Donohue. Here’s his latest on the new Pope.

  • spirit-level

    Alan
    Ever get the feeling Ratzinger is making it up? on the back of an envelope as it were. Jesus lived amongst the poor, the sinners. Were he here today I do not think he would embrace ” moral relativism” but he sure would be compassionate, abhor riches, reach out to the sick, dying. I do not think he would be proud of his Cardinals.

  • Vera

    Yes, Alan, I agree totally about the scary coalition on the right in this country, and it’s true that many conservative Catholics have left their traditional home in the Democratic Party (the party of labor, immigrants, and minorities after all!) to join the Republican Right.

    However, I don’t think Catholics are as monolithicly Republican as evangelical protestants. Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, and even Mormons are probably over 90% Republican. Among Catholics I suspect it’s closer to 50/50, both because they have some historic ties to the Democratic Party, and because there are more wishy-washy Catholics. I can’t imagine a Baptist only going to church a few times a year and only following half their church’s teachings and still being considered a Baptist.

    Honestly, there are days when I don’t know which is worse, Catholics and Protestants at eachother’s throats like in Northern Ireland, or conservative Catholics and Protestants together in a virtual lovefest with eachother, ganging up on all the moderates and secularists like we have here.

  • Henry94

    Israel Singer, chairman of the World Jewish Congress, says Ratzinger “was the man who provided the theological underpinnings for Pope John Paul II’s decision to open relations with Israel. He solved the real problem that existed – the 2,000-year-old theological question. He was the one who had the keys to open that lock. In the last 20 years he has changed the 2,000-year history of relations between Jews and Christianity. I believe he will continue the policies of John Paul II with regard to relations with the Jews and Israel.”

  • Chris Gaskin

    What about relations between Catholics?

    How will he mend relations Catholics who support Liberation theology?

  • Chris Gaskin

    Should read

    How will he mend relations with Catholics who support Liberation theology?

  • Alan McDonald

    Chris,

    The answer is, he will continue to work to eradicate liberation theology as a heresy. Here in Rochester, New York, our local bishop put a positive spin on the selection by saying that he had met Ratzinger three times. He didn’t mention that he was called to Rome to be chewed out by Ratzinger for being way too liberal.

  • Peter

    Sad to say but the Catholic church is heading in the wrong direction.

    I lapsed many years ago over its rigid non sensical stance on a wide range of issues.

    This Pope will address none of these issues. His writings if anyone has read them are extremely doctrinal with no room for compromise.

    I can see a split occuring between liberal theology which a large number of catholics want and the conservatism represented by the new pope.

    The drift will continue. The gap will widen between the faith and its leadership.

    A very sad say for the catholic faith.

  • mucher

    I think the Catholic Church in Europe has been given up by the Pope and Cardinals. The majority of Roman Catholics are now in Latin America and Africa where vocations are plenty and the churches full. Europe is nothing but trouble and the election of the new Pope reflects the distain the Cardinals have for Catholics here.