The GAA has voted for the temporary lifting of Rule 42 at its annual congress. Details not available yet. It was decided by a secret ballot.
A slightly inhuman presence that bans bad comments and works late at night to remove the wrinkles in Slugger’s technical carpet. You will need to know about the comments policy to stay off the fightin’ side of me and there is a bit of background about me here. You can email me using this spam-proof link if you really need to, and Slugger is @sluggerotoole on Twitter. But above all, remember, Play the ball and not the man.
227 to 97
from Breaking News which also says there might be a retractable roof. Why on earth would that be needed?
“A secret ballot has passed a motion to open Croke Park to allow international rugby and soccer matches to be played there while Lansdowne Road is being redeveloped.
The final result was 227 to 97 for the motion for the temporary relaxation of the controversial “Rule 42”.
It was 165 for and 153 against taking the crucial vote to a secret ballot.
Out of 326 delegates eligible to vote at the GAAs Annual Congress, 325 votes were counted with one spoiled vote.
Cavan, Wicklow, Clare, Roscommon, Kerry and Longford had withdrawn their Rule 42 motions to support a similar one from Sligo.
Earlier today it was decided by 165 votes to 153 to hold a secret ballot on the motion.
Already decided today:
– The mandatory wearing of helmets for Under-21 hurlers has become law.
– Kicking tees have just been made optional for football goalkeepers.
– Floodlighting coming to Croke Park, and with the possibility of a retractable roof.”
It should be remembered that neither the FAI nor the IRFU have asked to use Croke Park and no price has been discussed.
No one appears to know for sure if the IRFU or FAI really want to use Croke Park for international matches while Lansdowne Road is unavailable if and when it is redeveloped.
But the GAA delegates have finally made it possible for the ground to host the other sports.
Credit where credit is due – it shows forward, realistic and generous thinking on the part of the Southern delegates anyway, and hopefully the Northerners willl accept the result and go forward with their counterparts.
It’s a chance for the country to show itself off to the rest of the world with sports that are on an international stage, and the prospect of other Irish sportsmen (and women?) strutting their stuff in what looks like a fabulous stadium.
Imagine if the vote had gone the other way – the acrimony and ridicule that would have been heaped on the GAA and the country?
The reformers have saved the day, and deserve credit for doing so. I suspect the country as a whole is with them.
The FAI and the IRFU have a patriotic duty to hold their home games in Ireland. Imagine how them foreigners would laugh at us if we had to go over to Britain because 19th century bigoted sentiment stopped our national teams using Croker! It doesn’t bear thinking about. 2m rent per game is a small price to pay for our NATIONAL PRIDE. Come on IRF/FAI “Play Up and Pay Up”.
Good for the GAA.
Good decision.
Let the negoiations begin.
Well at least it’s one less thing people can whinge at the GAA about.
Great news
The GAA deserve every credit.
Duff and Keano at Croker
Can’t wait
It should also be noted that there was a massive protest outside Croke Park by local residents who have to live with the eyesore in their backyards and the disruptions that every matchday brings.
The IRFU had already been to Croke Park to discuss use of the stadium, but chose not to make a formal application until rule 42 was not in the way.
Keith m
I’m not sure i would agree with the term eyesore,it is afterall on of the most modern stadia in Europe
But as with any sports ground there are issues regarding the local residents concerns,and they should be addressed
franc, a stadium no matter how modern which blocks the sunlight for many houses and dominates the skyline for miles around is an eyesore in my book. It would be fine on a green field site.
The residents knew that the stadium was there when they bought their houses.
Keith M- are you serious? If the vote had gone the other way, would you have been happier? I’m sure the residents are grateful for your advocacy.
“Ulster GAA president Micheal Greenan made an impassioned plea calling for the status quo to remain.
Cavan and Donegal were the only Ulster counties to vote in favour of allowing football and rugby to play at HQ, while all six of the northern counties were against any change.”
It just shows how different Ulster people are from the rest of the island of Ireland. Thanks are due to the Ulster GAA.
Red Paul, I’ve stated on several occasions that I would prefer the ban to stay. I have no interest in reugby and I won’t support the football team until Roy Keane is gone. As someone on the flightpath from Culchieland to Croker I am impacted by having the stadium located where it is.
FewsOrange “The residents knew that the stadium was there when they bought their houses.”. Most of the residents bought their houses decades ago when the stadium was nothing like as big as it is now.
KiethM
As a fairly resounding example of nimbyism and selfishness, your attitude on the question of Rule 42 takes some beating.
What is particularly difficult to accept is the self-serving falsehoods, particularly…
“As someone on the flightpath from Culchieland to Croker I am impacted by having the stadium located where it is…Most of the residents bought their houses decades ago when the stadium was nothing like as big as it is now.”
Well, they mustn’t have checked too hard as the current capacity is still several thousands short of the 90,566 who watched down defeat Offaly in 1961.
Even at it’s lowest capacity of the late 1960’s the 73,500 compares very well with the current 79500.
no-one was conned, no-one was fooled. The residents moved in knowing what to expect, and some, like you, are now complaining – well, caveat emptor, Kieth.
I think the decision is an excellent one, albeit a difficult one, and the GAA are to be congratulated for having the courage to leave the old certainties in the past where they belong.
Seems that Italy,Scotland,and Wales will get to experience Croker next year,along with all the visiting Soccer teams.Landsdowne should be finished before 2007,so the bigots neednt worry,there wont be any GSTQ being played,or any Union Flags flying at Croke Park anytime soon.With this in mind,i dont know why all of us just didnt vote for a ”temporary” abandonment of Rule 42.
CavanMan
Lansdowne won’t even have planning permission by 2007.
Friendly Fire
Thanks,i was told yesterday that Landsdowne would be reopened within a few years.I cant honestly see England playing there to be honest,as their is still a lot of distrust and hatred towards the British(well in reality the english)The Crowd that populates Croker are a more ”politicised” shower than the Normal Rugby Fan,(especially if an Ulster team is playing)Republicans will probably end up disrupting GSTQ,should it be played there.
The Wales fans don’t seem to have a problem disrupting the playing of gstq,and they are british.
Theres a lot of distrust between the Welsh and the english!!!
The crown that populate the Millenium stadium must be very “politicised” ??
Sorry
The crowd that populate the Millenium stadium must be very “politicised”
It would be fine on a green field site.
Not in my book it wouldn’t. No more green field building.
Franc
I highly doubt the hatred in ‘some’ of the welsh towards the english is as great as that as ”some” of the irish.Also as you said the welsh are british,so why would they mind the english singing about their queen,The Queen has a certain relevance to them,The Queen only has a relevance to just over 50% of the people in the North,and is of no relevance in Ireland.The British are distrusted by many elements of the irish support,in Gaelic and im afraid Soccer,My fear would be that some of these people would hijack the Rugby Game, and bring us down to their level.
Wouldn’t it be gas if the IRFU or FAI decided not to use Croke Park. According to their statement today they are still looking at other venues. They’d look like even bigger dicks than they do already.
Cavanman
“I cant honestly see England playing there to be honest,as their is still a lot of distrust and hatred towards the British(well in reality the english)”
You mean the soccer team or the rugby team? I’d have no problems seeing the English rugby team playing in Croke Park, i’d say there’d be a great atmosphere at such a game. As for the soccer team, memories of the last game in Dublin still haunt.
Btw what’s this hatred you’re talking about?
Maca
Hatred was too strong a word,apologies,their is however a distrust that many people who follow Soccer,and the GAA have for the English.You say you think the english Rugby game would go great?im not so sure,There will be certain GAA bigots who would not appreciate GSTQ being played and the Union Flag being flown.I would have no problem with the forementioned happening ,but i know many people who would.
Cavanman
Can’t really see it myself.
Maca
Your dead right
speaking as someone who has travelled down to Lansdowne from Belfast for Ireland international soccer matches
The FAI are a complete joke
Do they have enough intelligence to bother asking the GAA if they could use their facilities
“There will be certain GAA bigots who would not appreciate GSTQ being played and the Union Flag being flown”
Yeah but it’s a rugby game, most if not all of the crowd would be a rugby crowd. I can’t imagine there’d be any problems.
Anyway it’s not the first time the Union Flag has been flown in Croker (Special Olympics)
The following statement was issued by the FAI today in response to the GAA decision on Croke Park:
The Football Association of Ireland has consistently held and expressed the view that the issue of Croke Parks availability is solely a matter for the GAA.
In relation to the FAIs future home international fixtures, we anticipate that Lansdowne Rd will be available for these matches up to late 2006.
In this context, our home matches during the planned unavailability of Lansdowne Road are almost two years away.
Having achieved a world ranking of 12th in the FIFA international table, we want to continue to achieve the maximum levels of success with our senior team. Success on the international stage provides a very strong national bond in the country whenever the team plays. It also creates a very positive visible image for the 400,000 who play soccer at home and the many more who support our game.
This success also provides the platform to generate revenues to invest in the future development of the game at home and, in turn, the further success of international teams in the years ahead.
As we co-ordinate and plan our games schedule for 2007, during the course of the next 18 months, we will investigate all venue options available to us. When we require to commit to specific venues for these matches, we will have evaluated all aspects of the venue decision including footballing, logistical and commercial issues.
The FAI welcomes the decision of the GAA to enable the consideration of Croke Parks availability to other sports through its Central Council in certain circumstances. While decisions relating to our home games due to take place when Lansdowne Road is under re-development are some way off, we welcome the fact that Croke Park may become available at that time.
CavanMan,
I think the particular objection of Welsh, Scots and indeed many Northern Irish to England national teams having GSTQ played as their anthem is that GSTQ is the UK’s national anthem, not specifically England’s, and England playing it gives an impression of England seeing itself as the basically being the UK, and/or lording it over the Celtic countries.
I know some England people would much prefer “Land of Hope & Glory” or “Jerusalem” to be played as the English anthem. GSTQ is bound to be a bit controversial at Croke Park, but I doubt if the rugby crowd would be bothered. Now the football people would be a different matter – after what happened the last time England p[layed in Dublin, the anthem might be better to be dropped.
Union flags are pretty passe with England teams and fans nowadays, the Cross of St George wouldn’t rouse as much ire, would it.
‘Union flags are pretty passe with England teams and fans nowadays, the Cross of St George wouldn’t rouse as much ire, would it.’
it certainly wouldn’t in my eyes.
P.S the ‘lesser men to violence’ thing was in jest. Sorry thats unclear Gav
“Ulster GAA president Micheal Greenan made an impassioned plea calling for the status quo to remain.
Cavan and Donegal were the only Ulster counties to vote in favour of allowing football and rugby to play at HQ, while all six of the northern counties were against any change.”
It just shows how different Ulster people are from the rest of the island of Ireland. Thanks are due to the Ulster GAA.
This is a further step forward by the GAA but again sobered by the attitude of the majority of the Ulster Counties. Shades of what we have we hold…seems familiar
Let me start by saying I think this is a move forward and will allow the GAA to strengthen itself and further promote irish games. More power to them in that effort.
Barney said: ” Imagine how them foreigners would laugh at us if we had to go over to Britain because 19th century bigoted sentiment stopped our national teams using Croker!”
If Soccer and Rugby had to go to England to play internationals it would not be because of bigotry but because of poor business skills and the idiocy of the Irish government in pursuing the abbotstown project.
This is a business matter and if the IRFU/FAI are incapable of ensuring their home internationals are played in Ireland then the GAA should exploit that as a business opportunity. Thats the way the world works and thats the way they will strengthen Gaelic gamess.
Jeremy (in response to Barney)
“If Soccer and Rugby had to go to England to play internationals it would not be because of bigotry…”
One thing strikes me here, I would have thought it would be far more logical for *normal people* to question why the IRFU isn’t immediatly jumping at the chance to have the games in Ravenhill and finally bring games North of the border.
Why is it some Northerner/unionists prefer the games to remain in Dublin rather than in their own neck of the woods?
It seems to be much easier to attack the GAA than aim the criticism where it really belongs, at the professional bodies who put themselves in this boat. The same old prejudices shine through every time.
For starters maca, Ravenhill simply wouldn’t hold enough people. It’s difficult enough getting tickets for Lansdowne Rd, Ravenhill can probably hold half as many people.
Second, you’re probably right to take a look at the IRFU. It’s long been suspected that the IRFU’s ‘offer’ to play games in Belfast or anywhere in Northern Ireland exists on paper only. I reckon the bigwigs at the IRFU would move mountains to prevent their beloved Ireland from playing under the Union flag and GSTQ, as per their agreement
Think it’s a shrewd move by the GAA.
Maca,
Special Olympic athletes don’t compete under flags and anthems so there was no union flag.
Cavanman,
The English rugby team and fans are very popular with the Irish rugby fans and Dubliners as a whole, helped by their good manners and willingness to travel to Dublin in the troubles when the Welsh and Scottish bottled it.
Martin Johnson’s red carpet gaffe was healed to a large degree by the beating they got the next year in Twickenham.
The football team is another matter, before and after the Combat 18 thugs although I’ve met tons of great English fans.
But what happens if we draw Northern Ireland in the EURO 2008 qualifiers never mind England? Two partitionist teams.
That would be a test.
I see Irish language organisations have asked the FAI to put Irish on the team jersey so that might a chance of a reciprocal gesture from the FAI if they do play at Croker. Maybe the IFA could take that into account too.
Ricardo,
80+ thousand spectators tax free in Croker or at most 20,000 taxed spectators north of the border with no corporate facilities. What would you pick if you were the IRFU?
Don’t forget the Dublin Chamber of Commerce and Irish government would go through the roof if the city lost even one Six Nations weekend to Belfast.
They don’t want that kind of precedent especially as none of the money would return to the Irish exchequer, the one paying for the majority of the refurbishment at Lansdowne road. The piper pays the tune.
forgive me in advance, but there is some absolutely uninformed bollocks being churned out here.
maca – how exactly do the IRFU look like “dicks” in this situation? Further, a suggestion that international rugby matches should be played in Ravenhill instead is one of the most preposterous suggestions I have ever heard – Ravenhill’s capacity of about 15k could be increased to about 20k or so with temporary seating – so do you seriously think the IRFU is missing a trick by playing tests elsewhere?? George’s comments at the end of his last post are quite correct.
And who’s attacking the GAA? I was very much against the GAA continuing to keep CP closed, for many reasons, and would have attacked the wrong decision on Sat; however a convincing majority have done the right thing, for the GAA and Ireland’s international sports teams – and well done to them.
The IRFU doesn’t have any “offer” to play internationals in the north – it will play matches wherever it will maximise revenues, and farm ‘A’ internationals and age-grade matches out around the provinces, including Ulster.
Also I’m pretty sure the English rugby team doesn’t play under the Union Flag, rather the cross of St George – so that’s one less thing for any little Irelander to worry about. As for GSTQ, most English people I’ve spoken to (and that is quite a lot) would give their right arm for a different and more inspirational rugby anthem.
Lafcadio, what a load of good sense you talk.
What on earth are you doing here?
😉
In case it wasn’t perfectly clear earlier, I was referring to the 19th century bigoted sentiment of our beloved national barracks games. There is a toxic strain of anti-Irish sentiment running through both bodies and the Rule 42 vote will help to highlight it.
The IRFU/FAI cheerleaders in the media have claimed the preservation of our national pride as justification for prising open CP. It remains to be seen if they employ the same argument to shame Rugby and Soccer into actually using Croker now that it’s available. It’s more likely national sentment will be quickly forgotten as our professional sporting bodies shop around for the cheapest venue in the marketplace. The FAI in particular would not think twice about playing in Old Trafford if there was an extra tenner in it for themselves. The fans, national pride, comunity economics and patriotic duty could all go FTS. Remember their TV deal?
Of course it would be the GAA’s fault for not paying them to stay in Dublin.
I have never believed that the IRFU/FAI wanted to use CP. They would be much more comfortable playing in England where most of their fans live. Saturday’s vote has just created a problem for them that they will need a little imagination and media assistance to solve. The issue of where to play while Lansdowne Rd is being re-developed has only started to get interesting.
Barney, at the risk of offending you, read what you’ve just written and I dare you not to be embarrassed by it.
Most Irish fans live in England – do you really believe that. Come on, man.
This should have been an easier decision than the one about UK police/army being members.
And it does rather throw the ball into the IRFU/FAI courts. But FANS of the games will love the idea of a chance to sample Croke Park.
The GAA has taken a leap of magnanimity here, and fair play to them.
I just don’t understand the sort of mentality you are displaying, I really don’t.
George – post 16/04 5.22PM
“Floodlighting coming to Croke Park and with the possibility of a retractable roof. Why on earth would that be needed?”
Maybe to keep the moths out when the floodlights are on!
Or even to keep the rain out?
Ricardo
“Ravenhill simply wouldn’t hold enough people. It’s difficult enough getting tickets for Lansdowne Rd, Ravenhill can probably hold half as many people.”
I know but a stadium up North should be the automatic second choice in such a situation as this, IMHO. Couldn’t the IRFU have been helping to develop Ravenhill over the years anyway?
George
“I see Irish language organisations have asked the FAI to put Irish on the team jersey so that might a chance of a reciprocal gesture from the FAI if they do play at Croker”
I see the Scots are doing something similar … or at least i’ve seen a petition to have Alba put on the jerseys.
Lafcadio
“a suggestion that international rugby matches should be played in Ravenhill instead is one of the most preposterous suggestions I have ever heard”
Ravenhill was bought and built for rugby. International matches have often been played there, although admittadly not since the 50’s. The capacity may be less than Landsdowne but wouldn’t it do fine for a couple of years. The capacity of Landsdowne is a little over 20K (restricted for 2006 so I have read) for soccer and it does the international side just fine.
Also, you don’t think it’s a little unfair that all international matches are played down South?
“And who’s attacking the GAA? “
Yopu serious? You should pay more attention, look at any of the previous GAA threads.
Maca,
the Lansdowne Road capacity for rugby internationals is 49,000 and will remain at this figure until it closes.
The 20,000 (I believe it is 18,000) capacity you speak of is for soccer matches and will come about as UEFA has only given the FAI a “temporary dispensation” on its temporary seating for this qualifying campaign.
The IRFU, however, is not bound by UEFA or FIFA regulations on terracing and temporary bucket seating.
The organisation also doesn’t have the cash to refurbish Lansdowne into a 50,000 seater and also upgrade Ravenhill.
That’s why you have the Maze. Hopefully by that time we’ll have an agreed Northern Ireland anthem and flag to play for those on the team who come from the region.
I for one see no future for an all-Ireland team playing north of the border if it has to line out under the union flag and GSTQ which is unacceptable to over 80% of the island’s population.
GB
Yes indeed, more fans of the Irish soccer team live in Britain than in Ireland. Why would you doubt it? The FAI could be sure to fill Old Trafford, Anfield or Parkhead but they can only fill LR with particluarly attractive visitors. Croke Park is well out of their league for run of the mill games. As for the IRFU, they could not survive without BBC TV revenue. More viewers watch Irish rugby games in England than in Ireland. Why is that such a problem for you?
GB
The FAI have a waiting list of over two thousand people for the block booking system.
All competitive games at Lansdowne have been sold out for the last five years.
Friendly games are also included on this scheme which is the reason why over 35000 attended a very un-glamourous match against China last month
Your comments are completely wrong regarding attendances at Ireland soccer matches
Perhaps a little investigation prior to commenting would help
Barney, at the risk of offending you, read what you’ve just written and I dare you not to be embarrassed by it.
Most Irish fans live in England – do you really believe that. Come on, man.
This should have been an easier decision than the one about UK police/army being members.
And it does rather throw the ball into the IRFU/FAI courts. But FANS of the games will love the idea of a chance to sample Croke Park.
The GAA has taken a leap of magnanimity here, and fair play to them.
I just don’t understand the sort of mentality you are displaying, I really don’t.
George
“the Lansdowne Road capacity for rugby internationals is 49,000 and will remain at this figure until it closes.”
I said for soccer. My point is if approx 20K is good enough for the soccer lads then surely 20K in Ravenhill is good enough for the rugger lads, especially since it’s only for a short while.
Maca
The capacity at Lansdowne for soccer internationals is 36000.
The north and south terraces are fitted with temporary seating due to FIFA regulations regarding standing at matches.
This has been the case for over five years
maca – Ravenhill is only just good enough for a professional club (Ulster) believe me, and sorry for being dismissive, but that’s kind of like suggesting that the FAI play their internationals at Cork City’s ground (randomly chosen Irish footy team). There is absolutely no question, and never has been, of internationals being played at Ravenhill.
What irish rugby needs is a stadium with a larger capacity, not smaller, given that no tickets go on general sale for home internationals, except for a couple of thousand on the website for Italy.
As for the question of whether the IRFU will play games at Croke – I would only ask of them what I would ask of any other professional sporting body, namely that they cost out the options and chose the one offering maximum returns – and I can’t see an alternative offering more than CP, assuming that a sensible discussion takes place between the two bodies.
Franc
“The capacity at Lansdowne for soccer internationals is 36000.”
23k I hear is about the capacity for the 2006 qualifiers.
Lafcadio
“What irish rugby needs is a stadium with a larger capacity, not smaller”
We’re talking a temporary basis here remember.
Franc, I think you have misinterpreted what I have written, and certainly my thinking. I accept everything you say.
(I am only an interested on-looker anyway: I go to watch the NI football team, I’ve never been able to get a ticket to a Six Nations game, and I only watch the GAA stuff on telly. I thought yesterday was a good move for Irish sport, that’s all.)
Maca
The capacity is 36000 with the temp. seating
It was 34000 in 2003 but was increased to 36000
with the addition of extra temp. seating at the north terrace end of the ground
I think your getting confused with the ammount of permanent seating at the ground (west & east stands)
gav
The post was not intended for yourself
It was a reply to Barney
Apologies
Franc, I think you have misinterpreted what I have written, and certainly my thinking. I accept everything you say.
(I am only an interested on-looker anyway: I go to watch the NI football team, I’ve never been able to get a ticket to a Six Nations game, and I only watch the GAA stuff on telly. I thought yesterday was a good move for Irish sport, that’s all.)
Franc,
From today’s Indo…
“A full house in Croke Park (69,000 seats) would generate over 5m in gate receipts for rugby and soccer, whereas the top yield from Lansdowne Road (24,000 seats) is just under 2m at current ticket prices. “
George said:
‘I for one see no future for an all-Ireland team playing north of the border if it has to line out under the union flag and GSTQ which is unacceptable to over 80% of the island’s population. ‘
How do you feel about all ireland teams playing south of the border lining out under the tricoulour and soldiers song which is unacceptable to 20% of the islands population?
Or are some people more equal than others on your island george?
Ricardo,
not talking about rights or wrongs just that I don’t see it happening. But if want to know the difference, AnaBh and the tricolour are the agreed symbols for the people of the Irish Republic, GSTQ and the union flag are not the agreed symbols for the people of NI.
The Irish rugby players from the Republic wouldn’t play under the union flag and GSTQ fifty years ago and they won’t now. I think they would consider standing to an agreed NI anthem and flag though one that represents all the people of NI.
I personally think there’s an easy solution. They can play over the border and just have Ireland’s Call and the flag of St. Patrick as they do when they play in England, Scotland, Wales etc.
After all the English rugby team was able to play for two decades 1970s-1990s in Dublin without GSTQ being played so why can’t Ireland play in the Maze without AnaBh.
‘The Irish rugby players from the Republic wouldn’t play under the union flag and GSTQ fifty years ago and they won’t now. ‘
I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate you speaking on their behalf george. Someone should ask them and find out.
‘The Irish rugby players from the Republic wouldn’t play under the union flag and GSTQ fifty years ago and they won’t now. ‘
‘I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate you speaking on their behalf george. Someone should ask them and find out.’
It would take a special kind of eejit to go around asking that particular question. Ricardo??
Irish internationals will not be held in the six counties for the froseeable future. The issue of the day is – the IRFU/FAI painted themselves into a corner such that they will have to pay whatever the GAA demand. The media have made playing home games in Ireland a matter of national pride. Therefore the GAA have a captive market and can negotiate from a postion of strength. Using CP could be a painful lesson to the blazers on getting their own house in order.
Ricardo,
They refused point blank 50 years ago and I don’t think they’ve become any more British in the intervening half century of independence. You don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to.
If you think the southern Irish rugby public and players would accept GSTQ as the anthem for the Ireland rugby team, then you haven’t a clue about Ireland. It simply won’t happen.
As I said, they might accept an anthem agreed by the Irish minority in Northern Ireland.
Easy on there boys. I was just speculating that some people might show a bit more tolerance than yourselves. Could happen
Ricardo,
it has nothing to do with tolerance. Tolerance would be to stand for an agreed anthem and to forgo you your own.
To stand for GSTQ would be to reward intolerance.
That’s why I hope Northern Ireland 84 years after it came into being finally gets its act together and tries to create a cross community culture, beginning with a representative government, flag and anthem.
Now that would be tolerance.
it has nothing to do with tolerance. Tolerance would be to stand for an agreed anthem and to forgo you your own.’
You mean like when protestant rugby fans stand under the tricoulour and SS at landsdowne?
“You mean like when protestant rugby fans stand under the tricoulour and SS at landsdowne?”
I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate you speaking on their behalf ricardo. Someone should ask them and find out.
Maybe you are mixing up diehard Unionists with protestant rugby fans. Do you imagine that all the southern fans are catholics and all the northern fans are protestants? Let’s keep such sectarian thinking out of rugby please. There is a sport for that mindset already – NI soccer.
‘I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate you speaking on their behalf ricardo. Someone should ask them and find out. ‘
The difference is Barney, that i am a protestant rugby fan, while neither you nor George are, or have ever been, Irish Rugby international players. Happy to be proved wrong though
‘Do you imagine that all the southern fans are catholics and all the northern fans are protestants?’
No, that’s why i said protestant rugby fans as opposed to Northern ones. do keep up 🙂
Sorry to interrupt this ring-a-ring-a-rosies – but this debate completely misses the point; the Irish rugby team won’t play in NI in the short- or medium-term, but it’s nothing to do with this preciousness over flags and anthems; it’s because there isn’t a stadium in NI capable of hosting a rugby test.
In the event that a match was played in Belfast, Ireland’s Call would be the only anthem played – it would be logical to play GSTQ using the rationale which justifies playing AnB, but completely anachronistic (incidentally, as the playing of AnB is anachronistic at Lansdowne); as for the flags, I can only speculate, I suspect that either no national flags would be flown except for the visitor’s, with an IRFU flag or four provinces flag being flown for Ireland, or both the Union flag and the Tricolour flown side by side.
But to think that there’s an appetite in NI rugby circles to see an Irish team lining out under a Union flag is to profoundly misread the situation – it’s usually mentioned to show the fallaciousness of the argument used to justify the tricolour and AnB.
The simple fact is that neither the tricolour or union flag in isolation is sufficient to represent the all-island rugby team, nor is either national anthem – and it’s a very simple fact!
Ricardo,
as a rugby fan and someone who went to a Dublin rugby school for my entire education, I can assure you that southern Protestant rugby fans would be as against GSTQ being the anthem for the Ireland rugby team as their southern Catholic compatriots. There would be no difference of opinion between them.
As I said, you don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to but there’s a reason why the Ireland rugby team haven’t played north of the border for over half a century.
But to think that there’s an appetite in NI rugby circles to see an Irish team lining out under a Union flag is to profoundly misread the situation – it’s usually mentioned to show the fallaciousness of the argument used to justify the tricolour and AnB.
Good point.
“The difference is Barney, that i am a protestant rugby fan, while neither you nor George are, or have ever been, Irish Rugby international players. Happy to be proved wrong though”
Sadly you are spot on in my case but I haven’t give up all hope. After this year’s 6N they might just come crawling to me.
I accept that you are a northern protestant but fail to see why this should give you any particular insight into any other protestant’s feelings with regard to the Irish national anthem. You also spoke for southern protestants which is really stretching it. If you had said ‘Unionist’ then you might have been on to something. But of course they don’t account for 20% of the population of Ireland, do they? More like 14% and shrinking.
Lafcadio,
You are missing the point. The tricolour and AnaBh don’t represent the Ireland rugby team, they represent the Irish state and its people and are accepted by 99%+ of the Irish Republic’s population. There is a difference.
Ireland’s Call and flag of St. Patrick represent the Ireland rugby team and these are accepted north and south.
It is not an anachronism for the tricolour to be at Lansdowne Road, which is in the Irish Republic, it is an anachronism that some northerners feign offence.
GSTQ and the union flag are not sufficient to represent Northern Ireland and I believe the Ireland rugby team would not give the mistaken impression that they are by standing for them.
I believe they would happily stand for an agreed flag and anthem.
barney – I suspect that most Irish rugby fans from NI are protestants, given that in the catholic school system, there was basically a de facto ban on non-GAA sports up until recently; the NI Catholics I know who are big rugby fans either went to a grammar school, or developed their enthusiasm despite having to enrol in clubs outside school to enjoy rugby. Most of my other catholic friends from NI will support Ireland in the 6N, but are really only indifferent rugby supporters.
So I have no figures to hand, and frankly am not interested enough to try to lay my hands on figures, but I suspect that most NI Ireland fans are prods; and as ricardo says, the vast majority of them stand up as AnB is sung (or rather not sung – it’s usually a pretty indifferent rendition at LR in my experience) and the tricolour is flown. In other words, display quiet respect and tolerance; as do NI players from Davy Tweed to T-bone Howe.
George – yes there’s a reason why Ireland haven’t played in NI for a while, see my post above.
ricardo – as an aside, this is a recurrent theme of George’s posts; he devalues what are otherwise sound, or at least thought-provoking, arguments by this tendency to make sweeping comments on behalf of wider constituencies, whether they be Irish people, Irish people in NI, and in this case southern protestant rugby fans.
lafacadio
that personal attack on George is a bit rich considering the rest of your post. Is not the case that your entire ‘sweeping’ argumnent is based on your own narrow personal experiences? You happily confess to having no real facts to go on.
The 12.06pm was by me for lafacadio.
George – you miss the point, it is not the Irish state that is playing rugby tests, it’s an all-island team, including players from, and supported by people from, two different states. AnB and the tricolour in isolation are not representative – this is a self-evident fact, and one that has belatedly been recognised by the IRFU in its adoption of IC as a rugby anthem, and its (rather illogical) flying of an Ulster flag alongside the tricolour at the last home game.
The flag of St Patrick would be surely acceptable as a compromise – but it is not flown, so I don’t see your point.
By the by, I don’t claim to be offended by either the tricolour or the soldier song, and never have done. I’m opposed to the playing of two anthems – the pre-match formalities waste enough time as it is; the Argentina match was a good example, freezing cold and raining, and we had to endure the Argentinian national anthem, which must be the longest in the world, and then two shagging Irish anthems, all the while the players freezing their nuts off on the pitch.
barney – firstly, it’s not a “personal attack”, let’s not get hysterical here.. it’s an observation that I’ve made to George on a couple of occasions. If he finds it offensive, I’m sure he’ll tell me.
And my post doesn’t claim to be on behalf of anyone, or any group of people; and I’m not sure that my personal experiences of Irish and Ulster rugby supporters are “narrow”, certainly not in comparison with most posters here.
I “happily admitted” that I had no statistics relating to the religious divide in NI rugby fans because I don’t! And I’m sure they don’t exist. Do you think that my inference is incorrect, then? If so, how?
The simple fact is that, as already pointed out, the Ireland rugby side doesn’t represent a state but an island made up of 2. Either both flags should be flown (by which I mean the NI flag, not the Union Flag – since none of the other UK teams use it) or one neutral flag (cross of St Patrick).
Until such days as this is agreed, any matches in NI should be played under the NI flag, opposition flag, IRFU/4 provinces flag and GSTQ and IC. What’s good for the goose…
Lafcadio,
I’ll try put my point another way.
The Irish anthem and flag are not used outside of the Irish Republic as they are not for the Ireland rugby team, they are for the state and those players who claim allegiance to said state.
If GSTQ and the union flag made an appearance in a match played over the border it would be for the NI state and not for the Ireland rugby team.
The problem is that unlike the tricolour and AnaBh, the union flag and GSTQ are not the agreed symbols for the NI state so the team would be taking a side by standing for them.
They don’t take sides by respecting the Irish anthem and tricolour at Lansdowne Road.
As I said before, I think the situation would be solved by simply playing IC and flying the flag of St. Patrick at the Maze although I’m not mad on either.
Surely the only reason national anthems are played at rugby or soccer internationals is to stiffen the spine of the home players, put a lump in the throat if a debutant, and letting the visitors know exactly where they are?
George – you seem to be intent on adding – letting the Ulster folk know exactly where they are too. I can’t see what benefit that has for the Ulster players, and consequently the team.
I have some sympathy for your position on the issue of the Irish Rugby and Soccer teams – except unlike you I accept that Irish rugby trancends your view of Ireland for the Irish.
Ringo,
maybe the difference between myself and yourself is that I don’t believe the importance of the Ireland rugby team transcends the importance of the Irish state.
The all-Ireland rugby team can stand to Ole, Ole, Ole and wave pink sombreros instead of a flag for all I care but when it lines out in the Irish state then the national anthem and national flag will also be played.
If the IRFU don’t like it and want Ole, Ole on its own, they can play all their games in Belfast, Anfield, Cardiff or wherever.
maybe the difference between myself and yourself is that I don’t believe the importance of the Ireland rugby team transcends the importance of the Irish state.
George – I don’t see how an Irish rugby team made up of players from outside the state and crucially, representing people from outside the state is directly related to the state? There is no connection – the IRFU is not a state or semi- state body. The games take place on private property.
Do you expect our anthem to be played before the first players tee off each morning when the Ryder Cup comes next year? That’ll show Sergio and any fifth column Spanish Imperialists who’s boss alright.
George – it doesn’t matter what way you put your point, it appears to boil down to one rule for “us” and one rule for “them”.
The issue is simple – if the official flag of the host state is to be flown at Irish home internationals, the tricolour should be flown in Dublin (no argument so far??) and the union flag in NI (as the only official flag in NI); as for the anthems, AnB in Dublin and GSTQ in Belfast.
Let me re-emphasise, I would not support a move to fly the union flag alone at an Irish match in Belfast, or to sing the Queen; I’m merely highlighting an inconsistency.
What I would like is: flag of St Patrick or four provinces flag; Ireland’s Call as sole anthem; presidential salute to welcome the Irish president onto the pitch whenever she attends – in other words a simple, consistent approach that can be applied wherever a representative match is played in Ireland.
And the Ireland team very evidently, and literally, transcends the bounds of the Irish state, given that it’s an all-island team.
Lafcadio –
What I would like is: flag of St Patrick or four provinces flag; Ireland’s Call as sole anthem; presidential salute to welcome the Irish president onto the pitch whenever she attends – in other words a simple, consistent approach that can be applied wherever a representative match is played in Ireland.
spot on.
Lafcadio,
I think we agree on most things except I am talking about “agreed” official flags rather than official flags.
I don’t believe the integrity of the Irish state should be undermined for the sake of an all-island rugby team so the tricolour and AnaBh have to stay when the team play in Dublin.
I’m sure the Northern Ireland people who insisted on GSTQ and the union flag in the 50s felt the exact same about the integrity of the NI state when they demanded these symbols be present for an Ireland rugby team playing in their jurisdiction.
Maybe things haven’t changed and the powers that be would demand NI’s anthem be played.
This is why I hope NI have a new agreed anthem and flag for the Maze, when the possibility of rugby games being played in NI could become a reality.
Ah bless! You rugby boys have almost put the world to rights. How liberal and progressive of you.
The only problem I have with George’s proposal for a NI anthem etc is that the Irish rugby squad would be used to support partition. That might be perfectly acceptable within the rugby fraternity but is unlikely to garner huge support from the rest (vast majority) of Ireland. The Nationalist tradition in Ireland will no more support a partitionist IRFU than the sectarian NI soccer set up or the partitionist FAI. But of course rugby, north and south, has never been about attracting broad support. Indeed, anything that helps to keep regular people out of the sport might well seem attractive to those middle class PD types who run Irish rugby. So George’s proposal might actually come to something, unfortunately.
Barney,
if the people of NI, unionist and nationalist, decide for their own reasons that they want to remain partitioned off from the rest of us on this island and as a result come up with an agreed anthem and flag for this new agreed Northern Ireland state, who am I to argue?
That after all would then be the democratic will of the people of Northern Ireland, a will the people of Ireland as a whole agreed to honour, no matter what, back in 1998.
It would not be a case of rugby accepting partition, it would be a case of the people of Ireland accepting that both communities in Northern Ireland want partition.
Personally, I don’t believe a functioning, agreed and equal Northern Ireland is possible because it is a political construct and unionism as an ideology is exclusive, incapable of accommodating Irishness but it may metamorphisise and I have been proven wrong on many things before so who knows?
Anyway, that is not the concern for much of southern nationalism.
Its concern is to ensure that the Irish state works to be a resounding success for all its citizens to ensure that a unified state is the logical and best option for the majority of people on this island, north and south.
If unionism beats nationalism to it and delivers a successful Northern Irish state that claims the allegiance of all its citizens, then fair dues.
I think I can live with a solution where everyone on the island is happy.
George,
I’m sure your’e right about the prospects of NI ever reaching an accomodation with itself. It is a monstrosity which would have died at birth without the life support system provided by Bitain.
My real issue is with you.
I suspect that you are a 26 county partitionist like Michael McDowell. It’s all very well being willing to accept reunification if somebody else achieves it but what Ireland needs, IMO, is a party that’s prepared to actively promote it. Can you think of any party that fits the bill today?
Barney,
You suspect? What do you base this suspicion on?
I am completely against partition but I don’t believe in killing anyone to hasten the removal of the border.
I want a united Ireland, emphasis on the word “united”, and believe Ireland’s interests are best served by the removal of the border. It is a social, econonic, political and cultural scar on this island and I have no selfish or strategic interest in seeing it retained.
I believe removing Articles 2 and 3 was the best thing that ever happened to southern Irish nationalism.
Now rather than having every idiot on the island paying simple lip service to a “united Ireland” before slumping back into the armchair, more and more Irish people and Irish parties are having to address the age-old “national question”.
We will see which party best delivers the pan-island unity necessary to deliver a united Ireland but one thing is for certain, the debate has begun.
You should be happy that McDowell is locking horns, this is what all-island politics is all about. He’s from here too you know and has as much right to an opinion on which direction this island should go in as you.
Sorry George, didn’t realise I was treading on some corns by mentioning Michael McDowell. Of course he is entitled to his opinion and it even has some support from the D4 rugby set. But I’m not obliged to like it and neither are you. I’m happy he has raised his head above the parapet too as the D4 partitionist are now being forced out into the light for all to see. However, I’m not so happy about him using his ministerial position to canvass for another partitionist party, the SDLP, during the Westnminster elections. As a Government Minister he is obliged to rise above party politics instead of abusing his office, and taxpayers money, to promote a party which most Irish people wouldn’t piss on if it was on fire. IMO.
Barney,
What is the SDLP’s policy on a united Ireland?
“The SDLP is 100% for a United Ireland.”
I don’t remember this being the case ten years ago. Even Fine Gael and the PDs have dusted off their Republican credentials since the removal of Articles 2 and 3.
I also think, deep down, you are delighted McDowell, a self confessed Irish Republican, is endorsing the SDLP.
True nobody understands the SDLP down here but you lot don’t seem to understand the PDs and why they hold so much sway. They came out of Fianna Fail you know and the people think they and McDowell are the perfect protectors against FF excesses.
George,
Enlighten me. There was I thinking that the 4%PD’s hold so much sway because FF needed a coalition partner. Do the PD’s 4% = ‘the people’ you refer to? I thought the PD’s were widely despised in Ireland and Mary Harney’s handling of the A&E crisis, exploitation of foreign workers and other right wing excesses were right up there with Michael McDowell as the reason why.
As it happens you are right about me liking McDowell supporting the SDLP but I’m not really that happy about him abusing his office to do it. His appearance will reinforce the view in nationalist communities that the SDLP don’t have a political philosophy apart from helping to secure British involvement in Ireland. Apart from supporting a 26 county vision of Ireland the two parties should have nothing in common.
PS,
“”The SDLP is 100% for a United Ireland.”
If memory serves, can’t stomach their new-look website, they are also 100% for the GFA. Yet they invented the tactic of collapsing the Assembly whenever the humour took, a lesson not lost on David Trimble. 100% for the GFA in theory but not exactly borne out in practice. I take everything they say with a pinch of salt. They also swear allegiance to the queen of england, hardly compatible with “”The SDLP is 100% for a United Ireland.” If the opportunity were to arise then I have no doubt Michael McDowell would also swear allegiance to England while giving 100% support to his beloved 26 county Ireland. The guy is full of shite.
George – it doesn’t matter what way you put your point, it appears to boil down to one rule for “us” and one rule for “them”.
The issue is simple – if the official flag of the host state is to be flown at Irish home internationals, the tricolour should be flown in Dublin (no argument so far??) and the union flag in NI (as the only official flag in NI); as for the anthems, AnB in Dublin and GSTQ in Belfast.
Let me re-emphasise, I would not support a move to fly the union flag alone at an Irish match in Belfast, or to sing the Queen; I’m merely highlighting an inconsistency.
What I would like is: flag of St Patrick or four provinces flag; Ireland’s Call as sole anthem; presidential salute to welcome the Irish president onto the pitch whenever she attends – in other words a simple, consistent approach that can be applied wherever a representative match is played in Ireland.
And the Ireland team very evidently, and literally, transcends the bounds of the Irish state, given that it’s an all-island team.
Lafcadio –
What I would like is: flag of St Patrick or four provinces flag; Ireland’s Call as sole anthem; presidential salute to welcome the Irish president onto the pitch whenever she attends – in other words a simple, consistent approach that can be applied wherever a representative match is played in Ireland.
spot on.
Lafcadio,
I think we agree on most things except I am talking about “agreed” official flags rather than official flags.
I don’t believe the integrity of the Irish state should be undermined for the sake of an all-island rugby team so the tricolour and AnaBh have to stay when the team play in Dublin.
I’m sure the Northern Ireland people who insisted on GSTQ and the union flag in the 50s felt the exact same about the integrity of the NI state when they demanded these symbols be present for an Ireland rugby team playing in their jurisdiction.
Maybe things haven’t changed and the powers that be would demand NI’s anthem be played.
This is why I hope NI have a new agreed anthem and flag for the Maze, when the possibility of rugby games being played in NI could become a reality.
Barney
Follow the link below
Its a BBC report from the Ireland v Faroe Islands game last year
Please note the attendance at the bottom
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/3741006.stm
Attendance 36000
We all get it wrong sometimes
franc,
That’s great news. More money for the GAA.
I suspect the row is far from over. The devil is in the detail. It may be instructive to look at the arrangements for the summer’s visit of U2. There will be two concerts rather than the anticipated three, one of the reasons being the prohibitive cost of the venue, according to band management far and away the highest in Europe. This is not directly the responsibility of the GAA who contracted these arrangements out in a competitive tender, and the contractor is looking for payback. I understand there are also planning considerations which limit the number of occasions on which the venue can be used out of consideration for what is after all a residential neighbourhood. Our national soccer and rugby teams may find they have many rivers to cross besides the Liffey.