Belfast Sammy

I posted a story yesterday on the Young Unionist Blog about Sammy Wilson’s decision to run for Belfast City Council on the same day as asking the voters of East Antrim to send him to Parliament. Comments have raised the issue of Alan McFarland and Dermot Nesbitt, however these are entirely incomparable as Sammy is standing for both seats on the same day.

The debate has moved on to an issue which I have little knowledge of, that of alleged paramilitary involvement in Larne DUP. I believe that the story was in the local press at the time, although I am willing to stand corrected.

  • Indeed

    Entirelly incomparable……lol

    You crack me up Shillers.

  • queens_unionist

    More propaganda shilliday?
    just as well you are on YU to kerb it.
    Down with that sort of thing

  • Stalford

    This is an outrageous abuse of Slugger, Mick. I am very perterbed that you should have allowed an impartial theatre for debate to be turned into an extension of Mr. Shillidays’s weblog.

    Shameful.

  • Michael Shilliday
  • Michael Shilliday

    how many times? grow up!

  • Circles

    paramilitaries + SF = foam at the mouth with condemnation (boo-hiss, bad shinners)

    Paramilitaries + DUP = foam at the mouth with cries of propaganda (boo-hisss, bad shillers)!!

  • Stalford

    Irrelevant. For you to come on here as a poster and spout out your Trimble-ite nonsense is one thing, but to make scurrilous and unfounded claims with the official sanction of the administrator is quite another.

  • Michael Shilliday

    You will of course note that I don’t claim anything.

  • Circles

    It would appear that even report an allegation is treachery enough for the free speech loving, Free DUPs Mr Shilliday – shame on you!!

  • davidbrew

    “The debate has moved on to an issue which I have little knowledge of”

    That never stopped you before kiddo. Who moved the “debate”(sorry one man attempt to smear the DUP with everything)on to paramilitarism BTW?

  • queens_unionist

    shilliday your lossig any respect you ever had as a blogger.
    shillidays blogging privaleges removed please!

  • Mick

    Actually Chris, I’ve been asking for partisan bloggers to push their party lines for the duration. The offer still stands!

  • Circles

    If the DUP disciples could stop their righteous indignation tantrums and answer what I think is a very important question that has been raised I’d be much obliged.

    Just what is, was, and will be the relation between the DUP and loyalist paramilitaries?

    A clear and honest answer would be greatly appreciated.

  • Boots McKee

    I think you’ll find that the attempt to smear the DUP came from the mouth of the leader of the DUP group on Larne Council.

    From Larne Times 2/1/2004
    “My resignation came about because I and my colleagues felt that the DUP in East Antrim was being infiltrated by paramilitaries. We made the party officers and the executive aware of this on several occassions, but it would seem our worries and concerns fell on deaf ears. When I saw paramilitaries becoming involved in this Assembly election, helping to put up posters or standing at scholl gates, I felt that vindicated the worries that I and my colleagues had had and as such I have no regrets for the stand that I have taken.”

    (Jack McKee Leader of DUP group on Larne Council on his resignation post Assembly election)

    He has now rejoined the DUP, is standing for the Council election and can be found answering the ‘phones in Sammy Wilson’s election, sorry constituency office.

  • Mick

    Having said which, it wouldn’t have been my choice of story. I also think Michael, having pointed to the inuendo in the first place, should let his readers have the last word on its varacity or fairness.

  • queens_unionist

    The position I, as a DUP supporter carry is that all terrorist and paramilitaries have no place in todays society.

  • queens_unionist

    and wrt to my previous comment, they never had a place in society in case i get confused with gaskins support of murderers

  • Radical Cleric

    East Antrim –

    It seems that the DUP in East Antrim have no suitable candidates to take on Roy Beggs. The DUP have parachuted Dawson and Wilson in to help cure the Old DUP image of their EA contingent.

    I hope that the people of Newtownabbey, Carrickfergus and Larne appreciate the differance between a DUPPER who merely wished to ollect another political title for the DUP trophy cabinet, and a UUP who knows best for the constituency, knows the constituents, well connected and respected in W’minster, has the gall to do the job in W’minster rather than swanning around in fromt of TV cameras.

    PS. notice in a local EA paper that Belfast Sammy has declared that Roy Beggs is not a unionist after all. He even describes Beggs as a nationalist who supports an all-ireland agenda. All the evidence for these statements flow apparently from Beggs support for D Trimble and the B Agreement.

    It is plain for people to see that the most ardent defender of the BA is Sammy after his party signed up to it wholeheartedly under their comprehensive agreement. No one word of BA changed and a raft of concessions to SFIRA. Hard really to name one gain for unionism in Comp. Agreement.

    Who would have thought it. Roy Beggs (Nationalist) and Sammy Wilson (pro-Agreement Ulster nationalist). Disaster for EA if they send a fellow like Sammy to W’minster. Nice guy, but no Parliamentarian.

    As for paramilitaries in EA DUP – Hard to know really. Local rag not very interested in exploring a story with a great deal of public interest and democratic decency at stake.

  • Howard

    Back to topic: Is it really fair for a politician to try to represent two entirely separate constituencies at the same time. I know it is prob legal but is it ethical? Is a conflict of interests not inevitable?

  • Circles

    QU – “The position I, as a DUP supporter carry is that all terrorist and paramilitaries have no place in todays society.”

    Nice side step – to refer to yourself personally when I actually asked the question refering to the DUP. But even your reply does not reveal much and would depend on how one defines terrorist or paramilitary. The question remains – what links are there between the DUP and loyalist terrorists?

    I’m not claiming there are any, but considering the DUPs apparent revulsion at all things terrorist it would be discussing any little hyposcrisies (or red berets for that matter) that may be lurking in the devine reverend leaders cupboard (or any other party members). As the good bok says “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”

  • Boots McKee

    Hang about, Slugger has been hear before………

    Row over MBE for former UVF chief
    Sinn Fein fury at Queen’s honour
    By Jonathan McCambridge
    jmccambridge@belfasttelegraph.co.uk
    31 December 2003
    A MAJOR row today threatened to overshadow the New Year’s Honours list after a self-confessed former UVF commander was awarded an MBE.
    “What I did is in the past, it was over 30 years ago; I have turned that corner and left it behind.
    I make no apology for my past; people get caught up in the emotion of the time. My disability is a result of my past – this accolade shows how far I have come.”
    The award to McKee is a disgrace. Those in the NIO who recommended that he receive an award must not have been fully aware of his past. Why is he any more worthy of an award than other councillors? There are longer-serving councillors than him.
    Note also the inconsistency in the report. The journalist states that McKee lost his leg in an IRA bomb, yet quotes McKee as saying ?My disability is a result of my past [i.e. his membership of the UVF]- this accolade shows how far I have come.”
    I had previously understood that McKee lost his leg from an ?own goal?.
    Posted by: willowfield at January 1, 2004 06:20 PM
    Back to the story as blogged. can I introduce some ‘facts’ to the discussion.
    Bobby McKee was elected to Larne Council in 1989 for the DUP. His brother Jackie was (until recently, but that’s another story) Ian Paisley’s ‘point man’ in the area for 30 years. Jackie was DUP leader on Council and
    Mayor several times.
    In the early seventies, Bobby or ‘Boots’ as he was known, was the UVF commander in Larne, and was as they say up to his kneck in it.
    Willowfield is absolutely correct about the car bomb in which he lost his leg. There is absolutely no evidence that the IRA had anything to do with it. The local wisdom is that his erstwhile colleagues in the UVF did it to him in a typical internal paramilitary feud over money.
    The line about him being a victim of republican violence is one which he has propagated over recent years, and was uncritically carried in a hagiographical profile of him in the Larne Times recently. (Written by a DUP supporting journo now a senior OO administrator.)
    There is no evidence that Boots/Bobby had any remaining terrorist connections by the time he entered public life in ’89 as a DUP Councillor. His politics have been like his brother’s – not an inch, no surrender, Super Proddery- which I must admit gets a certain amount of support down these parts.
    To be fair, he has done a lot of good work for disabled charities, and it is generally felt that he has done a good job as Mayor. He has spoken out clearly against violence and supported cross community dialogue.
    Despite his well known ‘colourful past’ he was elected Mayor with an SDLP Deputy Mayor last year with cross party support on Larne Council. (Although the Ulster Unionists did get heavy abuse in the letters page of the local paper- for supporting an SDLP deputy Mayor!!!!)
    However, that quote about him making no apology for his past is an absolute disgrace, and does call into question the sincerity of his ‘repentence’.
    Now back to more pointless whataboutery.
    Thank you.
    Posted by: larneman at January 2, 2004 11:14 AM
    Slightly off topic, but rather interesting this…
    Bobby McKee’ brother Jackie has resigned from the DUP. (This news was slightly obscured by a Mr Donaldson of Lisburn parish).
    In a interview in the local rag, the Larne Times (sorry not on web) it says:-
    “Mr McKee said that the principal reason for his decision to leave the party was rooted in certain changes which had overcome the party in East Antrim in recent years. ‘My resignation came about because I and my colleagues felt that the DUP in East Antrim was being infiltrated by paramilitaries,’ he said. ‘We made the party officers and the executive aware of this on several occassions, but it would seem our worries and concerns fell on deaf ears. When I saw paramilitaries becoming involved in this Assembly election, helping to put up posters or standing at scholl gates, I felt that vindicated the worries that I and my colleagues had had and as such I have no regrets for the stand that I have taken.’ “
    Disband Sinn Fein and the DUP I say. No terrorists in government!
    Posted by: larneman at January 2, 2004 12:36 PM
    Thanks for the confirmation, larneman.
    (Why wasn’t McKee expelled for standing as an independent?)
    (Was Hutchinson expelled, or did he leave?)
    Posted by: willowfield at January 2, 2004 02:56 PM
    Larneman – if you disband and ban every party or individual who has associated with paramilitarism then there’d be no politicians left in Northern Ireland. The fact is that very few people here are aloof – many people indirectly support the paramilitaries when they are buying illegal drugs, if they need a bit of “policing” done, if they want to put a competitor out of business or if they want the power stations shut down to impose their political will. People need to recognise their own weaknesses in terms of their own bigotry and willingness to use violence. If people keep arguing that their use of force has legitimacy that the force used by the “other lot” does not possess, then we will never get anywhere.
    Posted by: BrendanBelfast at January 2, 2004 03:01 PM

    Brendan
    I think larneman was joking.
    Posted by: willowfield at January 2, 2004 03:04 PM

    (Why wasn’t McKee expelled for standing as an independent?)
    Good question, and one which amazingly no local journo bothered to ask. My take on it was that becuase the DUP got their 3 ‘officials’ in they were prepared to let in lie. Then again McKee may have jumped before he was pushed.
    The entire Association was reportedly suspended earlier in the year at the height of the Hutchinson V McKee selection row, and I don’t know when or whether this was lifted. 3 out of 4 DUP councillors publically backed McKee in the election, while 1 canvassed for Sammy Wilson.
    (Was Hutchinson expelled, or did he leave?)
    This is one for the ‘you couldn’t make it up files’
    Hutchinson was endorsed by the DUP executive as 1 of their East Antrim candidates (against wishes of aforementioned local McKee supporting Association).
    Just before nominations had to be lodged for the (suspended) May election, allegations (still to go to court and strenuously denied by the accused)were made against Hutchinson regarding a sexual assault. Over a weekend the DUP Party officers met and replaced Hutchinson with Independent Orange Grand Wizard George Dawson (again ignoring McKee)
    This was presented by Peter Robinson as Hutchinson voluntarily dropping from the ticket in order to concentrate on clearing his name. However, later that very same day (I think it was a Monday) Hutchinson issued a statement saying that he had resigned from the DUP, and was standing as an Independent in the election. Some explanation was given that he did not want people to imply that his non candidature was an admission of guilt!
    So he left, but undoubtedly he was given a wee push.
    PS
    David Dunseith repeated the line that Bobby McKee was blown up by the IRA on Talkback today.
    Any chance of an independent judicial public enquiry in this controversy?
    Posted by: larneman at January 2, 2004 03:23 PM

    And yes, I was joking about disbanding Sinn Fein and the DUP
    …..I think
    Posted by: larneman at January 2, 2004 03:25 PM

    Thanks, Larneman.
    Posted by: willowfield at January 2, 2004 03:37 PM

    McKee jumped before he was pushed.
    Brendan if the DUP became the political wing of the UFF are you saying that they could then legitmately murder hundreds of innocent people?
    By the way, In the 1918 elections the SF/IRA candidates won 25 seats which were uncontested by any other candidate. they really only won 48 then.
    How can the IRA have a mandate if you lot say that they and SF are not inextricably linked?
    Posted by: dave at January 4, 2004 03:56 PM

    Dave,
    “McKee jumped before he was pushed.”
    Any truth in McKee’s allegation that paramilitaries infiltrated the East Antrim DUP and that the party leadership ignored this??
    Posted by: larneman at January 5, 2004 12:24 PM

    Dave?
    Dave3?
    Christopher Stalford?
    pieman?
    anyone?
    Posted by: larneman at January 5, 2004 04:33 PM

    Calling Slugger DUP executive representative, Mr Christopher (Don’st call me Chris) Stalford:
    Hows the disciplinary action againist ‘unrepentent’ ex terrorist and still DUP Mayor of Larne going?
    Posted by: larneman at March 16, 2004 03:02 PM

  • Circles

    Thanks for the rundown Bootsy!

  • yerman

    Michael,
    Are you a little slow, or just doing a wonderful impression?

    You stated that Sammy Wilson couldnt represent East Antrim and Belfast – it has absolutely NOTHING to do with what day an election is held on.

    Alan McFarland wanted to be MP for East Londonderry and MLA for North Down – just because there isnt an Assembly election on the same day makes absolutely no difference. The fact remains that he wanted to represent both areas at the same time.

    The same goes for Dermot Nesbitt. Utter hypocrisy is nothing new from the UUP, and it just seems that the Trimble Youth can use computers to propagate it – with the sort of logic you employ you’re simply Cecil Walker on the information superhighway.

    Also Michael / Mick
    Did this require an entirely new post? Why could the reply not be posted on the original thread? Also, if you have ‘little’ or as it actually seems – NO knowledge of a situation then why are you posting it? Surely you just aren’t posting baseless tittle-tattle to blacken political opponents.

    Now now Michael – that isnt very DECENT!

  • Keith M

    The Trimblite rump that now makes up the UUP are getting increasingly desperate, I mean East Antrim is so far from Belfast…..NOT.

  • yerman

    Keith,
    According to Michael Shilliday that only matters if both elections are on the same day.

    Well I suppose I can see where he gets that logic from – the only time you see a UUP representative in ANY constituency is on polling day! – they cant even muster canvass teams in most areas.

  • Rebecca Black

    “For you to come on here as a poster and spout out your Trimble-ite nonsense”

    The beauty of journalism is that anyone of any opinion can do it. If you can have a free reign to spout your anti UUP venom in the newsletter every week then I think bloggers from the UUP, SDLP or any other party can be equally entitled to contribute their opinion.

    Free speech, its a great thing.

  • yerman

    But of course Rebecca, we dont have free speech – otherwise I, and no doubt many others, would be posting exactly what we think of the Trimble Youth.

    However, Mick’s yellow/red card system prevents this!

  • craigyhillman

    Well I wouldnae like ta be dragged by the b**ls tae Belfast. (thats Ulster Scots BTW)

  • Rebecca Black

    Yerman

    all Mick is doing is preventing you from showering us with personal insults like you do all the UUP representatives. You are perfectly free to argue and debate with us. Debate isn’t personal abuse you know.

  • yerman

    Rebecca,
    Point agreed – but was just making the point that very few places actually have entirely free speech.

    There is a question to be asked why this required an entirely new thread to be posted by the same blogger. This is nothing more than the extension of yesterday’s debate and seems to be simply an attempt to re-highlight an attack on the DUP. Bias is fine, but repetition is boring.

    Also Rebecca, do you see a distinction between representing two areas so long as the election isnt on the same day?

    Your FREE to say whatever you like! ;-), but it has to be decent!

  • lorre

    Back to topic: “Is it really fair for a politician to try to represent two entirely separate constituencies at the same time.”

    BCC Wilson already represents two constituencies since the 2003 MLA elections. Adding another feather to his cap wont stop Sammy. However if he wins the westminister seat and the assembly was to reform, he may resign his seat on the BCC.as the work load would be excessive.

    Peter Robinson can cope with 3 seats but they are all in the one East Belfast constituency

    http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/aea.htm

  • Rebecca Black

    “Bias is fine, but repetition is boring.”

    I agree entirely, thats why I find Stalford’s column so monotonous.

    “Also Rebecca, do you see a distinction between representing two areas so long as the election isnt on the same day?”

    Of course, thats why i and others didn’t vote for Dermot Nesbit in the Strangford selection meeting.
    Thats the difference between the DUP and the UUP, while the UUP rejected people who wanted to run in 2 areas while the DUP approved.

  • Chris Gaskin

    “and wrt to my previous comment, they never had a place in society in case i get confused with gaskins support of murderers”

    LOL, go on ya boy ya!!!

  • Mick

    I think Pieman’s spot on. The Yellow/Red Card system is not to save any individual, rather it’s to save the discourse from disappearing down a very nasty plughole!

  • Indeed

    Rebecca,

    I think you’ll find that us Duppers aren’t actually allowed to debate with the UUP kids. I got told off for upsetting ‘Fermanagh Young Unionist’ on a thread about Fermanagh and South Tyrone, yet throughout the discussion had focussed on the issues and not the blogger. it wasn’t my fault he couldnt keep up. Its a big bad world out here, and if you kids can only put forward your Trimble propoganda but not face criticism then maybe you should focus on the YU blog. I’d much prefer you all stayed here though…at least til the election results are in!

  • Indeed

    Rebecca,

    I think you’ll find that us Duppers aren’t actually allowed to debate with the UUP kids. I got told off for upsetting ‘Fermanagh Young Unionist’ on a thread about Fermanagh and South Tyrone, yet throughout the discussion had focussed on the issues and not the blogger. it wasn’t my fault he couldnt keep up. Its a big bad world out here, and if you kids can only put forward your Trimble propoganda but not face criticism then maybe you should focus on the YU blog. I’d much prefer you all stayed here though…at least til the election results are in!

  • Visioner

    We talk here of someone representing two constituencies. The example used is Sammy Wilson. We’ll firstly I think this is just plain greed and unfaithful to your constituents.

    Something that is also wrong is where an MP holds MLA and a Council seat.

    I think this is ridiculous. Look at Jeffery Donaldson. He doesn’t care about representing his constituents by standing for Council while remaining an outgoing MP. The only person he cares about is himself and pushing the knife even further into the UUP.

    If one is to represent his/her constituents effectively, this is not the way to do it. Its just pure political greed.

    I would challenge Sammy Wilson to state that if elected as MP for East Antrim that he would give up his Belfast City Council Seat. He should have perhaps re-thought anyway at the 2003 Assembly elections.

  • Mick

    Rebecca!

  • lorre

    “I agree entirely, thats why I find Stalford’s column so monotonous.”

    Maybe that’s why the News letter has given him the boot. His column is just PR for DUP DUP DUP baised against the UUP. The newspaper prefers their coloumists to give a bit more Unionist variety for their readers.

  • lorre

    Visioner. I agree with you 100%. But that is the way politics has become today. Nepotism coupled with greed. Until new election rules are made which effect all political parties, then parties like the DUP will abuse what was known as political prodocol.

    In the past few westminister MPs ever served on their local district councils as they had a respect for their electorate. Now DUPers are not happy until they hold three seats.

  • lorre

    I think those DUPers like Belfast Sammy & Peter R who want to have three political seats at one time are suffering from a rare type of ‘political wannabee psychosis.’ . Designer suits with flashy ties while carrying very big bibles can be the warning signs.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    Indeed,

    I am interested in knowing how I failed to keep up??? If you cant remember the discussion ended when you refused to prove anything about your identity after you had mysteriously worked out mine.

    Does anyone here actually know who ‘Indeed’ is?
    I dont want a name or anything just confirmation that they are actually who they make out to be, for the more I think about the more interesting it becomes, like how they knew so much about that afternoon there and how they knew my family?!?

  • yerman

    Rebecca
    “Of course, thats why i and others didn’t vote for Dermot Nesbit in the Strangford selection meeting.”

    At least that seems to be a marginally more consistent position than your party colleagues who attack the DUP for one thing when their party colleagues are doing exactly the same.

    However it doesnt detract from the fact that the Ulster Unionist Party obviously sees nothing wrong with people representing two areas.

    Visioner
    “Something that is also wrong is where an MP holds MLA and a Council seat.”

    This is the other UUP line where is inconsistent. They see nothing wrong with someone holding 2 jobs, but somehow 3 isn’t. Either multi-jobbing is ok or it isnt! Do you think that Jim Nicholson was able to perform his duties as an Armagh Councillor at the same time as being an MEP?

  • yerman

    i should have actually said in my post….. “your party colleagues who attack the DUP for one thing when their party colleagues are seeking to do exactly the same.

  • Indeed

    FYU,

    Didnt take a genius to work your identity out. Ted called you Mr Ovens in a post of his. I don’t really care who you are as it doesnt really matter in the context of political discussion.
    One thing is for sure….i ain’t Arlene Foster.

  • Dessertspoon

    I don’t know the answer to this but am trying to find out and thought maybe the good people of Sluggerbeg Sur Ligne could help – Do a lot MPs in Scotland, England and Wales also stand for their local councils or hold any other electoral offices? Or is it unique to pigs at the trough in Norn Iron?