Will the IRA ever listen to Adams' argument?

Kevin Toolis on Adams’ speech from last week. He thinks Adams’ words means what they appear to mean, but has doubts as to whether or when the IRA is likely to act upon them.

  • Henry94

    But now, just a few weeks later, the man that republicans call “our President” is saying it is time to stow the marching drums

    I’ve never heard anyone calling him anything except Gerry. If somebody said “our President” I’d think Mary McAleese.

  • Davros

    Henry I read it as tongue in cheek, Our president as in el presidente.

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    He says that this is tantamount to admitting the bombs, shootings etc etc was a mistake. Somehow I don’t think that was what was going through Gerry’s mind when he made the speech.

  • maca

    Sorry to change the subject for a sec…

    Beano, just curious. Why is your website called “Everything Ulster”. I had a look around it and it looks to be only about Northern Ireland. 😉

  • queens_unionist

    of course this is not the end of the IRA.
    apart from the fact that the attrocities will live on in the minds of those involved…. everyone [including GA] know there are real hardliners out there who will keep the IRA movement alive by any means they can.
    These afore mentioned hardliners will wait for any schance excuse or opportunity to de-stabilise whatever peace process is happening.

    BUT really i dont believe GA at all. I wouldnt trust him at all as wouldnt many of the real unionists [real exluding people like MMcG].
    They havent gone away you know.

  • circles

    Q_U:”..everyone [including GA] know there are real hardliners out there who will keep the IRA movement alive by any means they can.
    These afore mentioned hardliners will wait for any schance excuse or opportunity to de-stabilise whatever peace process is happening.”

    Couldn’t agree more – however I don’t believe any organisation yet has the remit to decommission Dr. Paisley nor the DUP, so its a situation we’ll all just have to continue to live with until we have some real unionist leadership.

  • queens_unionist

    circles “I don’t believe any organisation yet has the remit to decommission Dr. Paisley nor the DUP”
    in what way, not a trick question genuine query of what you mean!

    Real unionist leadership…Well i do admit that the unionist leadership until recently has be quite pathetic. David Trimble mmm….need i say more, but the team at the DUP are working together for Northern Ireland and for unity of it.
    A party who work for there constituents and not to line there own pockets!

  • circles

    I mean in light of your hardliners statement who are doing all in the power to make sure that the IRA don’t go away, the DUP have to be up there with the best of them.

    The decommissioning crack was just that – no deeper meaning but simply trying to highlight the real difficulties the DUP actually cause wrt getting the IRA off-side (sack cloth and ashes – I mean really, was there any need?)

    The DUP are not working towards the unity of “Northern Ireland” insofar as they continue to exclude the entire nationalist population, and the leader continues to espouse the view the catholic church (a significant number of members of which also live in the north) is lead by the anti-christ. No movement of any kind is being made by them to consider the nationalist or republican position.

  • queens_unionist

    I will have you know, that DUP councillors MPs MLAs and MEP work for the entire sommunity. i have heard countless stories of work that has been done for members of other communities by DUP members.
    The DUP after all is unionist not ‘Catholic haters’
    With ref to Dr Paisleys anti catholicism view, and mine too it is a hatred of the religion catholicism not the practicising members of it.

  • Catholic

    I would almost have agreed with you there if you had have correctly typed that they work for the entire someunity (some of the community). I have heard countless stories too of DUP members wearing little red berets for example for Ulster Resistance, or getting too close to the flame of the UDA – although the ones I heard were documented, while yours were most likely of the urban myth variety.

    And trying to split the hair with a hammer when you say “I don’t hate catholics I hate catholicism” is typical of back pedalling kick-the-popes. So how do you feel about those people who practice a religion you profess to hate? Hard to believe it if you say you have a whole lotta love going on for them.
    What is it you hate about catholicism? Is it not just your own image of catholicism you hate?

  • Circles

    Golly gosh looky there – me, a professional agnostic, goes and signs myself in as catholic?
    Whatever next? Free P?

  • queens_unionist

    No.
    The Christian doctrine teaches to in laymans terms, love the sinner but hate the sin. I try my utmost to practise this.
    Do you think it would even be easy to hate catholics, considering i have to work in mixed environments, live in mised environments etc etc

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    I’m no good friend of Catholocism as a doctrine but I do have Catholic friends. In fact I’m no good friend of religion in general. The whole thing’s wired up.

    The individual members of the DUP may well work for all their constituents but this isn’t something to be trumpeted, this is the base line of what should be expected of any MP.

    The problem with the DUP is that they act as if the views of nationalists don’t matter, that they have no right to think as they do. You can’t win an argument just by saying “You’re wrong” over and over, on the occasion you actually realise they have an argument.

    And I fail to see what makes M McG or any other unionist less “real” than Paisley – especially since Paisley has been the biggest PR coup the Republican Movement has had for 30 years now, as the rest of the world looks on thinking “Feck me those unionists are fundamentalist religious nut cases – those poor catholics!” We must surely rank up there with the Taliban ffs!

  • Circles

    Finely quoted from the guide book Q-U, but you didn’t really answer:
    how do you feel about those people who practice a religion you profess to hate?
    What is it you hate about catholicism?
    Is it not just your own image of catholicism you hate?

    I’d appreciate an honest reply

  • Circles

    Finely quoted from the guide book Q-U, but you didn’t really answer:
    how do you feel about those people who practice a religion you profess to hate?
    What is it you hate about catholicism?
    Is it not just your own image of catholicism you hate?

    I’d appreciate an honest reply

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    Maca:
    “Beano, just curious. Why is your website called “Everything Ulster”. I had a look around it and it looks to be only about Northern Ireland. ;)”

    1) Yawn – if people can call NI “the North (of (the island of)) Ireland/the (occupied) 6 counties – I’ll call it what I damn well want.
    2) In any event, not true, if you check my Latest Post its about a stadium that the GAA teams from the occupied 3 might also end up in, as well as the Ulster rugby team.

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    OK, ignore the outer set of brackets – should read:
    the North of (the island of) Ireland

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    besides, all the google ads are about Ireland 😛

  • queens_unionist

    In response to circles’ questions…
    1/how do you feel about those people who practice a religion you profess to hate?

    I genuinely pity them, not n a patronising way. I try to witness to them by showing friendship and by setting good examples

    2/What is it you hate about catholicism?

    I hate catholicism as much as i hate murder or other cults etc. IMO they are all sin and so it is the call of a christian to oppose these.
    If you mean what IMO makes it corrupt, the mary-olitary the ‘pergatory issue’ the priest granting forgiveness in ‘Christ’s place’ etc etc. genuine reiligous arguments

    3/Is it not just your own image of catholicism you hate?
    im my mind i have come up with a view of catholicism from study form other opinions and from experiences…pretty good sources

  • queens_unionist

    ‘And I fail to see what makes M McG or any other unionist less “real” than Paisley ‘

    flip!

    M McG [ im assumin Michael McGimspey and not martin mcguiness there]
    cannot be viewd in anyway unionist. If it were a choice between his career and the unions im pretty sure the union could be sacrificed.

  • maca

    Beano
    Where’s yer sense of humour fella, anyway why would teams from the “[un]the occupied 3” play in NI’s national stadium but not teams from the 26 in which case it should be “Everything Ireland” … never mind me, too much coffee.

  • Circles

    Blimey q-u – frightening answers if I can frank (and you can be betty)
    Firstly because, in my understanding of christianity, hate is an emotion of destruction. Equating catholicism to murder is, to put it mildly, a rather different understanding of it than i’d say about 1.2 billion other people.

    I hope you’re interpretation of catholicism isn’t shared by too many people. Loath though I am to use the analogy, some of your ideas ar slightly reminiscent of the analysis of anti-semites, and based more on ignorance than fact.

  • Henry94

    qu

    I try to witness to them by showing friendship and by setting good examples

    What a good example you are of everything that is sick about bigotry.

    If you mean what IMO makes it corrupt, the mary-olitary the ‘pergatory issue’ the priest granting forgiveness in ‘Christ’s place’ etc etc. genuine reiligous arguments

    The usual litany of cultish theological illiteracy from the lunitic fringe. You haven’t read enough about purgatory to even come close to spelling it so you can’t expect your opinion to be taken seriously.

  • Occasional Commenter

    q_u, I’d leap to defend you (even though I’m an athiest), but equating Catholicism with murder was silly.

    Also, why do you hate glorification of Mary? I thought it was a harmless thing that Protestants just set aside. Please tell me more about the Protestant point of view on Mary.

    What’s the purgatory issue? I assume you mean the question about what happens to children that die before baptism? I thought the Catholic Church had decided they can get into heavan after all.

    Circles, Henry94, there’s no basis for accusations of “theological illiteracy from the lunitic fringe” (your spelling is no better), and as for “ignorance” the only mistake q_u made was misspelling purgatory.

  • Dessertspoon

    Q_U – You don’t really believe that the DUP is working for the unity of Norn Iron do you? That was a joke right? You can’t seriously think that by being bigoted and sectarian and ignoring significant portions of the populations that’s going to help unity.

    I don’t know if you are a member of the DUP or or even a supporter but if either can you tell me what their policies on health, education, water charging etc are? Surely that’s what matters not how many times can we say Trimble is a moron in 5 mins.

    Can you also tell them next time to spend a bit more on the PPB and buy some decent lighting. I could do better with my camcorder and desklamp.

  • Circles

    OC – the priest granting forgiveness is a a very crass piece of ignorance (if you didn’t pick that mistake up yer guilty too!)
    Confession – whilst I find the idea not completely logical – does not involve the priest forgiving anyone. Its a symbolic thing where the priest is there as a witness to the repentance of the sinner. Not my cup of tea, but still not what q-u said.

    Just thought of something – does protestantism mean …. never having to say you’re sorry?

  • Occasional Commenter

    Circles, you can forgive q_u for not understanding that forgiveness is just a symbolic thing. To be honest, I always thought it was “The Church” granting forgiveness, and the priest was just the agent or something. Isn’t it true that Catholicism teaches that The Church is effectively God on Earth?

    I think that the Protestant position that no priest or institution should usurp God’s role as forgiver is logical enough.

    I was brought up by RC’s – so I’m always interested in it.

  • tadgh

    Q_U:

    I truly appreciate your honesty in answering Circle’s questions. However I must admit your answer is shocking: Catholicism = murder = cults. And your liberal use of the word hate…well what can I say.

    I’d suggest that your hatred of Catholicism (or any other ethnic / religious group) put you in that category of person who, like racists or anti- smites, believe that they are in some way personally, economically, or politically threatened by members of a different ethnic or religious group. It becomes easy to blame Blacks, Jews, Catholics, or whomever for these perceived threats. Hate becomes a familiar emotion that masks the true problem, which faces you in the mirror every morning – accepting responsiblility for your own actions and not blaming your circumstance on others who are different.

    Perhaps you are different than my generalization of those who hate. I really do appreciate your honest answers.

  • Occasional Commenter

    I meant to add, I’m not very sure about either the RC or Protestant position on Confession. For that matter, what do the Anglicans think? I think I’ll read this now to answer my own questions.

  • Occasional Commenter

    tadgh, sorry for plagiaring your post, but …

    I could suggest that your hatred of q_u’s beliefs (or any other ethnic / religious group) put you in that category of person who, like political correctness thought police, believe that they are in some way personally, economically, or politically threatened by people who think differently. It becomes easy to blame White Male Anglo Saxon Protestants, or whomever for these perceived threats. Hate becomes a familiar emotion …

    So tadgh, why is not believing Catholicism so unacceptable?

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    “Where’s yer sense of humour fella, anyway why would teams from the “[un]the occupied 3” play in NI’s national stadium but not teams from the 26 in which case it should be “Everything Ireland” … never mind me, too much coffee.”

    Sorry maca, long day at work and I’ve had people ask that question seriously before 😐

    anyway – GAA teams from the Republic would virtually never play in the stadium because it’s only going to hold 30k, it won’t even be big enough for a major Ulster final and AFAIK it’s going to be used for the McRory cup (the schools cup isn’t it?) and not a lot else by the GAA. Isn’t this an Ulster event?

  • NewYorker

    QU,

    The view held by many Irish Americans is that DUPers are bigots and not very bright. Your posts above do not disprove that view. What do you know of Catholicism? Have you read the Fathers of the Church? And, you’re not a good advertisement for Queens University.

    Regarding the Toolis article, he briefly states the major problem with people believing the IRA will go out of business – the paramilitary criminal empire? Did you ever meet someone who making millions a year very easily decides to give it up? To think that the IRA is going to give up massive criminality which is personally enriching to some is naive.

  • JD

    So tadgh, why is not believing Catholicism so unacceptable?

    Come now. You’ve got the wrong sow by the wrong lug. Your PC argument is diversionary. Tadgh (hope he doesn’t mind me speaking for him here) makes it abundantly clear that he is asking for QU to account for his condescending, sectarian and bigoted view of catholicism which he has clearly expressed through his use of words such as “hate,” “sinful,” “pity,” “murder” and “cult.”

    This is a note-perfect illustration of how religion still plays a role in fomenting bigotry in NI despite all the guff we’re told about how “political” the situation in NI is.

  • Occasional Commenter

    JD, I think that pointing out that somebody is a bigot (even if it’s true) is a bit of a waste of time. It’s not a substitute for answering the points/questions raised by queens_unionist.

    queens_unionist is perfectly entitled to hate Catholicism, and to feel strongly about it. I’m sure there are plenty of -isms that we all dislike or hate.

  • JD

    queens_unionist is perfectly entitled to hate Catholicism, and to feel strongly about it. I’m sure there are plenty of -isms that we all dislike or hate.

    That’s nonsensical quietism.

    Of course he’s entitled to his views. But I don’t have to be uncritical of them, which is what your position seems to imply.

  • Occasional Commenter

    It’s not quietism. I’m all for argument and debate. q_u made a few harmless mistakes, alongside equating Catholicism with murder. But in the rush to judge, q_u was accused of bigotry because he/she didn’t know the finer points of the theology of Confession, rather than being challenged on the Catholicism = murder claim.

    Even (especially?) ignorant sectarian bigots are entitled to an informative correction of their errors.

    I don’t usually like people saying “he’s entitled to say that” – like I just did- it implies that there are some things they wouldn’t allow to be said.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are on the IRA Army Council, along with Gillen, Ferris, Murphy, Copeland and Keenan so it doesn’t make sense asking whether the IRA are listening to Adams or not!

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    A rather daft thread name if I may say so. Asking if the IRA will ever listen to Gerry is rather like asking if New Labour will ever listen to Tony Blair.
    Gerry has trotted out the line that he’s not an IRA member so many times that some people actually believe it.
    Now he’s telling us that he wants an ‘Ireland of Equals’, which is ‘Independent’ and a ’32 County Socialist Republic.’ What could he mean? Perhaps his admiration for Cuba’s Fidel Castro can give us a clue. SF would apparently like capitalism to be removed from Ireland, resulting in a glorious worker’s utopia, free from the shackles of British or EU money.
    Some political parties in the south have abruptly woken up to this scenario, but has anyone else? Do the voters, north and south, realise that they are handing their democratic vote to a party hellbent on destroying democracy itself? Never mind that shooting a mother of ten in the head or killing Garda officers isn’t a crime — these people are handing a mandate to a party who want to plunge Ireland back into poverty and isolation.
    The failed Marxist models of Cuba, USSR and North Korea tell us all we know about SF ideology.
    It’s about time Mr.Adams and his chums told us what his party’s longterm aspirations really are.

  • S.O.S.

    Some posters here seem genuinely surprised by queens_unionist’s views on “Mariology,” etc. All of it is straight off Ian Paisley’s current website. Not some speech Paisley gave in the late fifties; his current website. Here is Paisley’s own link to his views of Catholicism, or, as he prefers to call it, Romanism: http://www.ianpaisley.org/answers.asp. It is a doxology of hate, and hate leads to violence.

  • queens_unionist

    Thanks for the site SOS, never new about that. Cheers.
    will come in useful.
    Think a lot of people posting above would need to read some of John Calvin’s writings.

  • Henry94

    qu

    Think a lot of people posting above would need to read some of John Calvin’s writings.

    Is that how you learned to hate?