SDLP facing stern Westminster test

Interesting speculation as to what answer Gerry Adams might expect in the last week of the election campaign from the IRA. Whatever it is (provided there is serious substance to it), it could be the final knock out blow to the SDLP, who arguably have not fully capitalised on Sinn Fein’s two/three months on the political ropes.
However David Trimble (and, by extension, the UUP) may prove to be the most notable scalp in this election.

  • john

    It seems that the SDLP are always the losers and SF the winners whenever the IRA does something. Yet we saw that the IRA was good at only a few things in the past while – like filleting Robert McCartney and robbing banks. Could it be the case that this latest reply to Sinn fein will be the straw that beaks the camel’s back? Could SF be in trouble if the IRA say those fateful words – it’s all over.

    For I think it is all over for SF when it’s over for the IRA? What else have they got to sell?

  • Chris Gaskin

    It has nothing to do with selling.

    You are now dealing with a confident Nationalist electorate who are akin to Sinn Féin. They are looking forward with confidence unlike Unionists who are preoccupied with the internal squabbling.

    Don’t expect Sinn Féin to slow down anytime soon.

    The big target will be the 26 counties.

  • John O’Connell

    Chris

    I don’t see the Nationalist electorate as being extraordinarily confident. My view is that they simply have become accustomed to being more outspoken about their beliefs. They’re more bigoted in many respects rather than confident.

    I don’t think that SF gives them confidence, only reasons for seeing themselves as aggressive and criminal.

    The Nationalist electorate is continuing to ape the unionist electorate, and the truth is that they’re losing the connection with the republic’s citizens not threatening their voting base.

  • Levitas

    Sinn Fein is bound to benefit from the Adams initiative and the SDLP will be the losers as the SBP article suggests, but really what is there to attract nationalist voters to the SDLP?? they are very much the “reserve” team and its interesting that their most fervent supporters are also naturally inclined to be unionist in their politics, people are’nt stupid, they know that people like the DUP and the UUP only respect strength both in the past and the future, and secretly despise the hand wringers of the SDLP as much as the Shinners do.

  • Davros

    Sinn Fein is bound to benefit from the Adams initiative

    “Never mind the quality, feel the width.”

  • Liam

    Chris,

    please remember that there will always be a place for a constitutional nationalist party with no criminal baggage in the six counties. The 117000 who voted for the SDLp deserve representaion that doesn’t have to bend the knee to shady figures. Please respect the mandate of the SDLP and accept that there are many many nationalists in this part of Ireland who will never vote for those who show ambiguity ina any form to violence.

  • Chris Gaskin

    I respect everyones mandate,I despise the stoops but I respect their mandate.

    Do you honestly see the sdlp surviving these elections?

    Fianna Fail are already setting up in queens next freshers day.

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    Liam, nice to see there are still some of you left. As for unionists “despising the SDLP as much as the Sinners do” – seriously, how many unionists do you know?

  • Liam

    Chris,

    hmmm, let me see, yo ‘despise the stoops, but respect their mandate’. Please explain that one to me. Well as you have claimed that you wish to bury the stoops it might just follow in line with the republican movements policies.
    Of course the SDLP will survive the election, read my previous post – in a democracy there should always be an alternative. I believe the vision and policies of the SDLP will still be about – for god sake the republican movement have nicked a lot of them anyway!! Sf have yet to prove themselves on the international stage as the majority party of nationalists for a long time.
    Try not to despise anyone, even your fellow nationalists – I’m an SDLP supporter and will always be. SF and the SDLp have some common policies, so if you ever want to chat about it then feel free to do it. Time will tell if your prefered Conor Murphy will be as respectedon a wide a sacle as Seamus. You know there are more people living in Nortern Ireland than the republican movement.

  • Chris Gaskin

    Yes Liam I despise the stoops but respect their mandate in the same way I respect the DUP’s mandate. You don’t have to like something in order to respect it.

    “Of course the SDLP will survive the election, read my previous post – in a democracy there should always be an alternative”

    I never suggested their wouldn’t be an alternative but what makes you so sure that alternative will be the sdlp?

    “Sf have yet to prove themselves on the international stage”

    Just to let you know Liam but the people we represent are not on the International stage but in this country. That was something the stoops never understood. You can have as many awards as you like but it is your average joe bloggs who elects you. That is one of the reasons why the sdlp is in terminal decline.

    “Try not to despise anyone, even your fellow nationalists”

    I do but sometimes it’s hard and BTW their aren’t many in the sdlp that I would describe as Nationalist, never mind fellow Nationalist.

    Conor Murphy will be a far better MP than Seamus Mallon ever was.

  • Liam

    So then why do you despise the stoops?? In order to respect something you have to see value or worth in it therefore does this mean that you see value and worth in all political parties and their voters. BTW what do you mean by the word mandate, it is a term bandied about by all PSF representatives ( is this in the training manual or is this part of the mantra learned at Sinn Fein school??!!) often without understanding what it really means.
    If the people we represent are not in the international stage why are PSF reps so keen and frequent to court Irish Americans / Cubans / Columbians / Basques Separatists / South Africans / Palestinians?? It is very clear that all political parties use the international stage even in the interests of nationalism, however, being in the SDLP i may not understand the meaning of the term nationalism by your standards. It’s strange that others judge peoples understanding of nationalism on the basis of their own standards – does this mean that there is only one definitive understanding of the term nationalism. Again see my comment above regarding PSF school.
    The brilliant thing about being in a democratic society is that people are allowed to have a range of views and a spectrum of understanding on issues and ideologies – if someone espoused only one version of an idea we could end up going down a very dangerous political route where we think the same and be the same!. History has shown that in the long term one forced ideology can result result in terrible tragedies.

  • Davros

    You can have as many awards as you like but it is your average joe bloggs who elects you.

    That was something I noticed in the Radio program earler – it was claimed that constituency work wasn’t worth huge numbers of votes. Might be true in some places , but I don’t think it should be said of N.I ?

  • Chris Gaskin

    I despise the stoops because of a large varity of reasons, they will always accept less, I don’t believe they fully embrace a UI future, they are a bunch of careerists, lick tony blairs ass and do absolutly no work for their constitutients and they swear and oath of alligence to a foreign queen yet they hardley attend westminster.

    Mandate= A command or an authorization given by a political electorate to its representative.

    We don’t court anyone, we have a large support base throughout the world and support various international struggles, I wouldn’t expect a stoop to understand International solidatory.

    Davros

    I agree 100%, constinuecy work counts for a lot more than 1000 votes, I would estimate 50% of your vote is based on that alone.

  • Davros

    I’d also reckon the “poorer” the constituency the more important the constituency work would become, especially for council seats. The wealthy don’t take as much crap and can afford shysters… whoops Lawyers ( LOL …sorry all! )

  • Chris Gaskin

    I agree Davros

    That’s one of the reasons why the sdlp do so well in South Belfast and so poorly in West Belfast

  • Tiocfaidh ar La

    SDLP are dead and buried. It’s only a matter of time before Sinn Fein become the largest party in the North, giving us international kudos and leverage over the Huns. Then we will build on that and overtake FF and FG in the South, making us the most powerful party in Ireland!
    THE LEGACY OF KARL MARX LIVES ON!

  • Stalford

    The volkisch-nationalist Marx? That’s a new one.

  • Rebecca Black

    One of the articles in the Sunday Times this week was talking about the DUP and how they could become the sole or at least dominant voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster with the decline of the UUP and the SDLP gone and Sinn Fein not taking their seats. Sobering thought.

  • Davros

    To be fair Rebecca, one of the surprises has been how well Paisley and co have fitted in at Westminster and Europe.

  • Rebecca Black

    apart from when Paisley called the Pope antichrist in the european parliament…..

    seriously though, the idea that Northern Ireland would be represented by only one political party at Westminster is disturbing.

  • George

    How many bills have the UUP, DUP or SDLP managed to put forward and get passed in this Westminster parliament in the last 33 years?

    Does it really matter to Irish nationalists if the DUP are the only people from NI sitting in the House of Commons?

    No. The whole reason why most Irish nationalists have either followed obstructionism or abstentionism is that Westminster never has and never will serve on behalf of the people of Ireland, partitioned or otherwise.

    Anybody Irish nationalist who thinks they are missing something because their MP refuses to go to Wesminster is fooling no one but themselves.

  • Chris Gaskin

    I agree George

    If the DUP is the only party that attends Westminster then that can only be a good thing for the UI cause.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Chris Gaskin,
    Explain to me in what way the cause of Irish “unity” is aided if the DUP are the only party representing the Northern Ireland electorate at Westminster?

    Quite the opposite I’d have thought?

  • Davros

    apart from when Paisley called the Pope antichrist in the european parliament…..

    Agreed, that was disgraceful. But after that Paisley and Hume went on to form a formidable partnership that was good for NI and earned a lot of respect.

    Who knows what the future will hold. The IPP had a huge amount of power over Gladstone. If this or the next one is a close election between “New Labour” and the Conservatives the DUP could find themselves in a useful negotiating position.

  • Ringo

    George –

    Something that I’ve been meaning for a while to tease out with you if your interested. There is a common thread through many of your arguments that seems to suggest that British rule and British politicians are axiomatically bad.

    Westminster never has and never will serve on behalf of the people of Ireland, partitioned or otherwise.

    For arguments sake I’ll accept the ‘never has’ bit, but I’m wondering about the ‘never will’. (I am assuming that it isn’t just rhetoric.)

    I’m just interested to know what boundaries you have on this – Do you believe that no British person can become a good politician, or that it is impossible for British politicians to be of benefit to the electorate? And if part of the electorate is in NI, what are the inhibiting factors in the British Political system that prevent these benefits from being realised in NI under any circumstances?

    I often think that the logical conclusion to your ideas on British politics is that if they are that bad, then it is very unfair to restrict the benefits of non-British rule to NI and the best thing for the British people would be to be ruled by us?

  • George

    Ringo,
    I believe that the history of Westminster shows that it always has and always will serve British interests first and as a consequence can’t serve the interests of Ireland, which has different needs.

    It’s not a case of good or bad British politicians, it’s a simple case of priorities and the 50+ million British in Britain are the priority of Westminster not the 1.7 million in NI.

    They will not reduce fuel charges to alleviate cross-border smuggling in Northern Ireland, they will not lower corporate tax so NI can compete with the Republic for FDI, they will not make the UK a dual currency zone to ease cross-border trade etc. etc.

    I am a firm believer in Irish self determination because I believe it has shown itself to work (just as British self determination has) and if as an Irish person you leave the British in Westminster to determine your future then don’t be surprised if they don’t take your welfare into account when making a decision.

  • George

    Davros,
    don’t know what history books they gave you at school. The IPP achieved virtually nothing at Westminster from William Gladstone, not even the minimum requirement of Home Rule.

    Parnell supported Gladstone for the 1880 elections but when Gladstone subsequently sponsored the Land Act, which surprise surprise fell short of Irish demands, he joined the opposition.

    In 1881 Parnell encouraged boycott in the Land War and ended up in jail for his troubles. It was this that broke the landlords and land agents not anything achieved in Westminster.

    Gladstone did introduce the Coercion act to put down violent dissent though, suspending Habeas Corpus.

    If that’s what you call a “useful negotiating position” give me abstentionism any day of the week.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    George, you say,

    “It’s a simple case of priorities and the 50+ million British in Britain are the priority of Westminster not the 1.7 million in NI”.

    Whether you like it or not George, the 1.7 million people in Northern Ireland are United Kingdom citizens, with over 1 million of the population percieving themselves to be, and are proud to be British, so it is HMG’s duty to treat Northern Ireland’s people as equals, and in the same manner they would treat the Scottish, English and Welsh people, which incidentally I feel they do.

  • Davros

    Davros,
    don’t know what history books they gave you at school. The IPP achieved virtually nothing at Westminster from William Gladstone, not even the minimum requirement of Home Rule.

    LOL – they forced Gladstone to change from opposing Home Rule to supporting it. That it took years to get the Home Rule bill passed doesn’t alter that the IPP was very influential in that respect. Abstentionism has been disastrous for Ireland. It’s a negative and counter-productive tactic, be it Sinn Féin or the DUP.

  • Ringo

    Cheers George

    I believe that the history of Westminster shows that it always has and always will serve British interests first and as a consequence can’t serve the interests of Ireland, which has different needs.

    I don’t see how the needs of British and Irish people (or French for that matter) are mutually exclusive. Why is it impossible to do both?

    They will not reduce fuel charges to alleviate cross-border smuggling in Northern Ireland, they will not lower corporate tax so NI can compete with the Republic for FDI, they will not make the UK a dual currency zone to ease cross-border trade etc. etc.

    All of these can just as easily be laid at the door of the Dáil, but in reality the status quo is preferable. We’re not willing to increase fuel charges to alleviate smuggling (surely he real problem here is the people who profess to despise the border yet are making millions from its existence). We’re undercutting the corporation tax and affecting their FDI. We won’t make the Republic a dual currency zone etc..

    if as an Irish person you leave the British in Westminster to determine your future then don’t be surprised if they don’t take your welfare into account when making a decision.

    Would a NI parliment with fully devolved powers not do the trick so?

  • Davros

    I agree with you C-L re the British status of the people in NI. I’d like to ask George if he knows how many of the people in GB are actually Irish people with full voting rights for Westminster. That they haven’t been disenfranchised rather damages his case.

  • George

    Ringo,
    needs may not be mutually exclusive but the methods for meeting these needs are. I believe that the methods for meeting the needs of 60 million Britons in a finance and services driven economy are not necessarily the same as those required for public sector heavy NI to be able to turn its economy around as well as compete with the bordering Irish Republic.

    Northern Ireland has no booming services sector like the rest of the UK and generates an incredible 65% of its GDP through the public sector – Source Price Waterhouse Cooper. In other words, a subvented economy.

    If the people of NI are happy to be subvented to keep them quiet then that’s their perogative but I believe in the long run, they will pay dearly for abdicating responsibility to others.

    The middle-aged fogies in their comfy public sector jobs don’t care but, for example, the population of Protestant West Belfast is now just 24,000 with less than 1% getting a university education. Whole communities are being wiped out and will continue to die.

    The Irish government has introduced policies in the last two to three decades which have have had the specific aim of making the previously backward, rural Irish economy more modern, self sufficient and as a consequence more prosperous. How? Breaking the link with sterling, setting up tax havens like the IFSC to build up the financial services sector, joining the euro, cutting corporation tax, cutting income tax, slashing public spending, attracting FDI.

    39% of Irish students now go on to university.

    “Would a NI parliment with fully devolved powers not do the trick so?”

    I think there was one of them 1921-1972 which collapsed in abject failure leaving a society riven by sectarian division and violence but if the good people of Northern Ireland feel they can get it to work this time around for the benifit of all, I can only wish them the best of luck.

    Don’t forget they won’t have any tax raising powers so in the end they will probably just end up administering the mess if they don’t work together.

    It is interesting that the only Westminster edict I know of that the old Stormont managed to stop being made law in NI is the Abortion Act of 1967.

    Davros,
    “they forced Gladstone to change from opposing Home Rule to supporting it. That it took years to get the Home Rule bill passed doesn’t alter that the IPP was very influential in that respect.”

    Eh, I think you’ll find by 1918, a full two decades after Gladstone’s death there was still no Home Rule in Ireland. If you consider that “influential”, you can. We call it “buying a pig in a poke” where I come from.

  • Ringo

    George –

    Within Britain I’m sure it would be quite easy to identify another 1.7m people sharing a common geographical area who don’t fit the description of a finance and services driven economy. This isn’t an issue unique to NI by any means. As you suggest – the problem isn’t Britain, the problem is NI. In a UI the problem remains to be solved.

    As regards devolution, it is clear that you agree that Westminster rule is significantly better than old-Stormont rule – which is proof that there are circumstances, admittedly ones best left in the past, where a local Irish government wouldn’t do as good a job as direct British rule.
    It isn’t black and white, like you often give the impression.

    Give the people of NI credit – if a future devolved administration is not undermined from within I think there is absolutely no reason why they couldn’t turn things around in a similar manner to what was done in the Republic. If devolved taxation powers are required, then that is what people should be arguing about, not the usual nonsense.

    Basically you’ve given me no reason to believe that the fundamental problems relating to NI can be laid at the door of the houses of Parliament.
    I don’t have any doubt that the solutions to those problems can be found as part of the UK, a UI or as an independent state, but equally they will never be solved unless addressed by a united NI.

    Eh, I think you’ll find by 1918, a full two decades after Gladstone’s death there was still no Home Rule in Ireland. If you consider that “influential”, you can. We call it “buying a pig in a poke” where I come from.

    Is the GFA the new Home Rule?

  • George

    Ringo,
    I look at history and Westminster failed to deliver for the island of Ireland, 1801-1921.

    Any changes that came about in that time, came about because of civil unrest not because of parliamentary efforts at Westminster by constitutional nationalists.

    the right to vote (Catholic emmancipation), the right to land (Land War), the right to representation (independence) etc.

    You can say the same north of the border: Any changes that came about since 1921 in Northern Ireland have come about because of civil unrest rather than parliamentary efforts.

    How many opposition bills were passed in the unionist Stormont parliament 1921-1972? One I believe on the welfare of wild birds.

    Is the GFA the new Home Rule? Yes

    The objective? Just ask Gladstone: To pacify (Northern) Ireland.

    Will it work? Only if it unites the people of Northern Ireland.

    I’ve said this before. It is Northern Ireland which has to deliver everything unionists and nationalists hope from this fabled “united Ireland” if it is to survive.

    You say NI can turn it around. I say it is a political construct which has spent half its time in a state of civil war and over 80 years after its creation still fails to claim the allegiance of nearly half its population.

    Sure lets give them another 80 years to make it work. We’ll be dead by then and it won’t concern us.

    Paisley said yesterday “Ulster is ours”. I can see a united Northern Ireland being built on that alright.

    Can you tell me one thing around which the people of Northern Ireland can unite?

  • barnshee

    George

    “They will not reduce fuel charges to alleviate cross-border smuggling in Northern Ireland, they will not lower corporate tax so NI can compete with the Republic for FDI, they will not make the UK a dual currency zone to ease cross-border trade etc. etc.”

    Get amongst others an economics text book (beginners) and some small understanding of Tax Law

    The UK can`t have different rates of tax in different regions of the same fiscal entity because everyone would buy their( eg diesel) in NI-by the shipload if necessary or register their company in NI to pay the lower rate of tax. The Euro fiasco arises because the UK is not a member of the EURO grouping, is unlikely to join and has a at best an ambivalent attitude to Europe–(Imagine a situation where the UK left the EC and ROI stayed in.)

  • Ringo

    George –

    As I said right at the start I’m not even going to bother arguing the past. It is, as they say, a different country. It is clear that if you’re looking to build a stable society that people can be proud of, you wouldn’t start from here.

    But thats where we, or rather they, are. I just read that piece in the Ballymoney paper about Paisley you were referring to – the man is a dinosaur but best ignore his words and watch his deeds, no more than his arch-enemies. How would breaking the Union change his views, or those of ordinary unionists? Surely you’re not ignoring their opinions?

    Anyway, my point remains unchallenged – there is nothing in what you’ve written to indicate that the union as opposed to administration of that union is the problem, as it has been in the past. And there is nothing in a UI that would fix the existing problems.

    I still get the impression that you think that unionists have had their go, and as it was a bit of a mess, the nationalists are entitled to have their go now, and sure, they can’t do any worse than the unionists.

    Can you tell me one thing around which the people of Northern Ireland can unite?

    No. Closest I can get is a near universal hatred of sprouts.

    But that’s something for them to sort out. As long as there is this daft obsession with which foreigner they want as head of state (we’ve got one now too, and its not much fun 😉 ), we’ll never manage to answer that question.

  • George

    Ringo,
    the “union” is the problem because it isn’t a union of equals and never was. It was an annexation of a poorer, weaker neighbour.

    This is still evident in the UK’s governance of NI today.

    I don’t see the UK implementing the policies necessary for NI especially if such policies could be detrimental to the rest of the UK. For example, how will the UK make up for the revenue shortfall if it cuts fuel tax?

    The only way NI can really get going is if it makes the money itself. The only way this can happen is by a complete restructuring of the society and economy. Who is going to do this?

    The UK government will continue to pay its billions, cutting where it can of course, rather than stir up that hornets nest. Why because it is not interested in the longterm welfare of NI and its people but political stability and its control thereof on the island of island.

    It is for the people of NI to unite and implement the hard choices necessary to deliver for the region’s people otherwise things will continue as they are and by 2020 they’ll be visibly worse off than the rest of the UK and the Irish Republic.

    What to do?
    For a start, they need a Ray McSharry or “Mac the Knife” as he was known to make the hard decisions, to slash public spending and encourage wealth generation.

    They need to make NI the most productive and educated region of the UK, the natural choice for FDI and the knowledge economy.

    They need to make it a place where foreigners come in their droves not a place of total segregation, fighting the scourge of racism.

    Can a Stormont Assembly made up of DUP and SF deliver this? I fear not but am waiting to be proven wrong.

    Barnshee,
    what you say is the whole point. The UK can`t have different fiscal policies in different regions and as Northern Ireland is the least productive and least prosperous region, policies will not be implemented for its welfare if they impact on the rest of the UK. Before partition, it was Ireland as a whole which suffered this fate.

    If the UK leaves Europe, it will have huge ramifications for Ireland, north and south. But, one thing is for sure, I’m glad to take my chances with Europe.

  • Liam

    Chris
    Your level of insight into the stoops shows you must have fully considered what they have to offer on a political level! Does this mean you resent any form of government, whether in NI or the whole island that would include stoop representaitives? Despise is such a strong word. Again back to my former point that if the SF way to a UI is the only way we are back down the dangerous road where only one group has the one true message/ideaology, again we know where that can end up! I presume that you can back up your other allegations with evidence and not just anecdotes from SF school.

    The taking of westminster seats to try and move forward a process within Northern Ireland is of course much worse than the killing of over 1800 people (over 50% of those catholics). I mean obviously the best way to get a UI is to have a legitimate war for 30 years then decide that maybe democracy might be the way forward, stand in elections and not take your seat. Or maybe accept an agreement that any true republican would spit upon. Do you think the Hunger Strikers would have taken their seats in Stormont, with the eradication of Articles 2 and 3, the power sharing with representaives from the former Vanguard movement, accpetance of the consent principle and most insultingly the watered down North/South institutions. Again where is the SF vision for a UI on the basis of such a violent turbulent history?
    How many SF reps refuse their westminster wages/expenses and or donate it to a local/international group? This would be an excellent example of solidarity. In fact over the last 30 years how many SF supporters have refused to either pay taxes and/or accept benefits? Wouldn’t that be an impresive political statement, even of it did result in social consequences?
    BTW which ENGLISH dictionary did you use to look up the meaning of the word Mandate or is that again somehthing you learn as part of your mantra at SF school.

  • Davros

    Any changes that came about since 1921 in Northern Ireland have come about because of civil unrest rather than parliamentary efforts.

    Hardly surprising considering the abstentionist policies.

    Westminster failed to deliver for the island of Ireland, 1801-1921.

    Depends on what you call failing to deliver. In certain areas Ireland did better than England under Westminster.

  • Chris Gaskin

    What a sad child you are Liam, everthings not too cosy on the stoop ranch then I presume.

    “Your level of insight into the stoops shows you must have fully considered what they have to offer on a political level!”

    Thanks

    “Despise is such a strong word”

    Yes, yes it is

    “I presume that you can back up your other allegations with evidence and not just anecdotes from SF school.”

    Sorry to dissapoint Liam but I didn’t attend SF school, just reality.

    I do find it most amusing that a stoop would try and offer opinion on what a “true republican” would do.

    You boys are as Republican as Paisley. You have moved from Post-Nationalist to agreed Nationalist to Irish Republican and all of this with people like Attwood, please don’t insult other peoples intelligence.

    “How many SF reps refuse their westminster wages/expenses and or donate it to a local/international group?”

    Sinn Féin reps only get a portion of their salaries, the same as the everage industrial wage. The rest of the money is invested into the partys consticuency offices that help ordinary people with their day to day problems, not that the sdlp would have a clue about that.

    How many sdlp memebers accept their full wage?

    At least Sinn Féin is honest with the electorate about not attending Westminster, your lot just couldn’t be bothered to go.

    “BTW which ENGLISH dictionary did you use to look up the meaning of the word Mandate”

    Dictionary.com

    It seems the Dying tiger or pussy cat that is the stoops can’t bear the thought that the Majority of Nationalists view them as irrelevant.

  • Liam

    Chris,

    thanks for taking each point methodically and replying to it in the mature way that only an SF person can do – ie by picking out the words that they want to focus on and ignoring the others. Again, I have no right to comment upon nationalism/republicanism because SF hold the copyright to them.
    If going by your unbiased view that the stoops mandate is decreasing it is amazing to see that your understanding of democracy values the party with most’votes’ – again, SF hold the copyright to the word democracy therefore all other parties are irrelevant. See previous coments regarding what history tells us about nation states where only one party has all the answers.

  • Chris Gaskin

    Liam

    I would prefer for the electorate to give you the answers in a few short weeks.

  • Liam

    Chris,

    Refer back to my previous comments on your limited understanding of democracy. You believe that democratic process is only about winning – very few are prepared to stand up for what they believe in and the fact the x00 people vote for you means that they believe in what you stand for. this is what real politics is about.

  • Chris Gaskin

    “You believe that democratic process is only about winning”

    Please show me where I said that?

  • derek

    Liam

    Surely the electorate vote for the person or party who will best represent their own particular viewpoint,whether it be for social,political or economic reasons

    This is Democracy

    People stand up for what they believe in my registering their vote

  • Liam

    Chris,

    no problem, I’ll supply you with photographic evidence.

    Derek,I’m not sure whether you are agreeing with me or not.

  • Robert Keogh

    the killing of over 1800 people (over 50% of those catholics).

    Your 50% assertion is false. In fact the PIRA was one of only two groups in the NI conflict whose victims were less than 50% catholic and less than 50% civilian. Every other armed group had a majority of catholics and civilians as their victims.

    The British Army’s victims were 85% catholic and 52% civilian. Isn’t that the armed force SDLP swear allegiance to when they prostitute themselves for citizen battenburg/windosr?

  • kitty

    “Refer back to my previous comments on your limited understanding of democracy. “

    Deeney had smething to say about the Stoops version of Demcoracy in the days paper:)

    “You believe that democratic process is only about winning -”
    Nobody said that, or if they did where? But you shouldn’t concern yourself with winning Liam, its been a while for you.

    “very few are prepared to stand up for what they believe in”

    WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY THE SDLP ARE IN THE STATE THEY ARE IN. THEY NEVER HAD THE COURAGE TO STAND \UP FOR ANYTHING BUT A GIN AND TONIC AND A SALARY.

    and the fact the x00 people vote for you means that they believe in what you stand for. this is what real politics is about.
    AGAIN NOTHING YOU SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH. X00 WILL BE VOTING SINN FEIN BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY STAND FOR- SDLP VOTE WILL DROP BECAUSE NOBODY BELIEVE IN WHAT THE SDLP NEVER STOOD FOR!!!!:)

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    “The British Army’s victims were 85% catholic and 52% civilian.”
    Curious as to how you work out which of the victims were civilians, and which were in some paramilitary organisation.

    Kitty just because they the beliefs the SDLP stand up for don’t match your own beliefs, does not mean they don’t stand up for what they believe in.

    They believe in the rule of law. They joined the policing board despite intimidation from some of the (minority of) scummier members of their own community. Whether you agree with it or not, they stood up for their belief in the rule of law in Northern Ireland.

    Now go back to your Ladybird book on Oirish history and politics.

  • kitty

    “The British Army’s victims were 85% catholic and 52% civilian.”
    Who are you attributing this to, Beano?

    Kitty just because they the beliefs the SDLP stand up for don’t match your own beliefs, does not mean they don’t stand up for what they believe in.

    So Beano, maybe you will tell me what it IS the Stoop Down Lows believe in?
    “They believe in the rule of law. They joined the policing board despite intimidation from some of the (minority of) scummier members of their own community.”

    My My, it must be that elitism that has helped the Stoop Down Lows get where they are.
    Whether you agree with it or not, they stood up for their belief in the rule of law in Northern Ireland.

    “Now go back to your Ladybird book on Oirish history and politics.”

    What is ‘Oirish’? And I’ll lend you me book after you finish reading your SDLP comics, Beano.

  • DCB

    Kitty, feel good voting for the Stoop Down Eventually Party.

  • George

    Beano,
    is it not true that the SDLP refused to support the RUC?

    As you believe they stand for the rule of law, I assume that means you believe the RUC didn’t.

  • kitty

    “Kitty, feel good voting for the Stoop Down Eventually Party. “

    Ah a sense of humour, good for you. But I would never call the UUP that!!!!! 🙂

  • Robert Keogh

    “The British Army’s victims were 85% catholic and 52% civilian.”

    Curious as to how you work out which of the victims were civilians, and which were in some paramilitary organisation.

    Beano check out Suttons Registry. It’s not complete and I’m sure that it is not 100% accurate but I’ve only found errors of ommission not any factual errors.