McCartney affair marks end of "internal house keeping"?

Robin Wilson on Open Democracy argues that the McCartney sister’s case for individuals to be allowed the freedom to go to the police in order that justice may be seen to be done, stands in marked contrast with the paramilitary perogative of the IRA, “in which they see themselves as judge, jury and executioner.”

  • john

    Fair play to the McCartney sisters. But they should come out now and declare their support for the SDLP. The SDLP stood by them when Sinn Fein wouldn’t, so they should return the favour.

  • Henry94

    Like everybody the sisters are entitled to their opinion and to express it if they like. But to imply they owe the SDLP is a bit of a step.

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    Were they not SF voters prior to their brother’s untimely death?

  • gary

    The SDLP must have more cash

  • Jonathan McCullough

    I would like to see the day when all murderers have to face justice, those who killed Robert McCartney in the recent past and those who were responsible for Le Mon, Teebane, Kingsmill, Enniskillen, Warrenpoint, Downpatrick, Newry, Shankill, to name only a few. Do Henry, Pat and the other SF/IRA apologists who regularly contribute here also believe in justice being done and those responsible being incarcerated, or is it only when members of the republican movement have been murdered that they call for tribunals, etc?

  • gary

    Quite selective in your choice of deaths,i thought ALL murderers should face justice??

  • hensons

    What a terible piece of writing – turgid and cliched, reads like a speech from Pat Rabbitte.

  • Jonathan McCullough

    Gary, I did say to name only a few! Of course I include Rosemary Nelson, Pat Finnucane, etc. As an unashamed Ulster Unionist when I say that I condemn murder, terrorism and crime I mean from EACH and EVERY source that perpetrates it. I hope that those responsible for killing Nelson and Finnucane have to face the courts and are imprisoned if found guilty. I also hope that ALL who have had to cope with terrorist violence have the crimes investigated with the same thoroughness.

  • NewYorker

    This is a very important article. Open Democracy receives great respect world-wide. Now the world knows, if it did not already, SF is not fit to participate in a democracy. Intimadation has no place in a democracy. It is in the nature of SF not to be democractic. Reread the article and reflect.

  • IJP

    John

    If they’re sensible, the McCartneys will recognize the support from across the community and stay well away from party politics.

    What’s more, they are sensible.

    It’s up to others to turn away from SF.

  • Henry94

    Jonathan McCullough

    First of all it is very wrong of you to call me an IRA apologist. I have consistenly called for the end of the IRA in this forum.

    As for the list you mentioned please tell us in which of these cases the RUC investigation was not carried out properly and why you believe further enquiries might lead to arrests.

    Are you actually calling for enquiries into these cases or simply using them to oppose enquiries where there is already a campaign.

    And speaking of campaigns, where is yours? The Bloody Sunday families, The Finucane family and many others worked long and hard years to try to get justice. They are still trying. What are you doing? Please pick one of the case you mentioned and tell us what grounds there are for a enquiry. Then prepare for a long struggle trying to get the British state to even acknowledge you. Don’t be surprised at cover-ups and the destruction of evidence if that suits them.

    But where there is a case to be made as in Claudy where Mitchel McLaughlin supported demands for an enquiry you can expect nationalists to back your efforts.

    But where are the efforts?

  • Jonathan McCullough

    Henry,

    I’m very glad that you are claiming not to be an IRA apologist. Does that mean that you condemn the criminal activities of the IRA?

    As for your other points, I believe that if members of the Roman Catholic community were given the same assurances regarding reporting the carrying out of those crimes I have mentioned as have been given regarding the murder of Robert McCartney then more evidence might be gathered.

    You have mentioned Bloody Sunday and Pat Finnucane, I mentioned others, all I have asked for is that each case of terrorism/murder/criminality be investigated with the same degree of thoroughness and all responsible to be brought to justice. Do you agree with that Henry?

  • aquifer

    hensons 9.54pm

    Got any links to Pat Rabbite speeches?
    Does he gut revolutionary gangsters as well?

  • Davros

    it’s an excellent article.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Henry94, your position on the IRA is well understood here. I wouldn’t recommend you concern yourself too much with the comments of the Young Unionist Virgin Society.

  • Jonathan McCullough

    Comrade Stalin,
    Excellent choice of name change for a shinner Brendan, unfortunately I’m a bit old to be a Young Unionist and alas lost my virginity too many years ago to remember. So why Stalin, is it bacause he too was fond of murdering not only his natural enemies but also anyone he saw as a threat? Stalin and Beria/Gerry and Martin????

  • gary

    Jonathon

    Does the same example apply to members of the british security services who murdered not only those who they thought might be a threat , but murdered catholic civilians in the hope that it would convince the IRA to cease activities because the greater might would win.

  • Jonathan McCullough

    Gary,
    Read what I posted at 1019pm, I think it makes it quite clear on my opinion. Do you also support all who have been victims getting justice by the way???

  • john

    Is it true that the Mc Cartney family recieved
    £2500 three weeks prior to the trip to America, I believe the SDLP were involved ???

  • Henry94

    Jonathan

    I’m very glad that you are claiming not to be an IRA apologist. Does that mean that you condemn the criminal activities of the IRA?

    If by criminal you mean illegal I’d have to say that such would not be my basis for condemnation even if I was of the view that there were merits to condemnation as an approach to anything. Which of course I’m not.

    all I have asked for is that each case of terrorism/murder/criminality be investigated with the same degree of thoroughness and all responsible to be brought to justice. Do you agree with that Henry?

    Of course. And where that clearly has not been done I support the right of victims and justice groups to demand and campaign for justice. In particular where the forces of the state are themselves involved in murder and cover up then it is a fact that there is no justice for anyone until those stables are cleaned.

    At best the mistake in your thinking is that you see justice as a limited quantity where justice for one is at the expense of justice for another.

    At worst you are not interested in justice at all but you are hoping to cynically use some victims as a way of denying justice to others. Where are thee examples I asked you for? In what cases to you believe people were denied a proper investigation and why?

    I’m ready to support your demand for an enquiry if you make a case for it.

    I believe that if members of the Roman Catholic community were given the same assurances regarding reporting the carrying out of those crimes I have mentioned as have been given regarding the murder of Robert McCartney then more evidence might be gathered.

    Does that mean that members of the London Protestant community are ipressed with the assurances given in the McCartney case.

  • Alan

    Henry,

    There has been talk of a hierarchy of victims down throught the years. My position on that is that all victims should be treated equally. There is, however, one cleavage across those who have been victims that is consistently ignored – and that is the difference in access to redress of grievance – what is in reality an absence of expectation of redress.

    One group do have access ( albeit they always seem to have to struggle to get there)to courts, to freedom of information acts etc. But for those who are the victims of paramilitaries ( and republican paramilitaries in particular)there are no courts and, crucially, no expectation of redress. For them, the slate is effectively wiped as clean as McGuinness’s bar-room.

    I won’t accuse you of cynically using one group of victims to deny another group, because you are not, but I would ask if it is sufficient for you to ask where their campaigns for justice are when there are no ways, means nor usual channels by which they might progress their campaigns?

  • spirit-level

    Alan
    I don’t think the awful siuation of Catholics killing Catholics ( and getting no justice )
    was ever forseen by the leadership.
    That things would come to this!
    And in that context the IRA response to the GA statement needs to be radical.
    I think it will be.
    Enough for Unionists?
    Only afer Paisley snr leaves the stage.

  • spirit-level

    Alan
    I don’t think the awful siuation of Catholics killing Catholics ( and getting no justice )
    was ever forseen by the leadership.
    That things would come to this!
    And in that context the IRA response to the GA statement needs to be radical.
    I think it will be.
    Enough for Unionists?
    Only after Paisley snr leaves the stage.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Jonathan, I am in fact a member of a political party which is in favour of the union. I’m not a nationalist or a republican of any kind. I think you should probably give more consideration before you judge people in accordance with their first names, what do you say ?

  • Davros

    I don’t think the awful siuation of Catholics killing Catholics ( and getting no justice )
    was ever forseen by the leadership.

    That’s breath-taking. The leadership have been involved in killing RCs and denying them and their families Justice from the earliest days of the troubles. Bernard Teggart ? 15 year old boy with learning difficulties abducted from School and shot dead by the IRA….. come on Spirit-level. That’s the sort of nonsense that might be accepted on a website for Irish America, but you insult our intelligence with this sort of claim.

  • PatMcLarnon

    The steps taken by the Official IRA and their hangers on have been held up as examples of how the mainstream republican movement can give confidence to the unionist community. Even the DUP have held the sticks up as showing the way.

    Given that the Official IRA were involved in the shooting of a youth in Albert St last night (all of thirty years after they called their ceasefire) one wonders if that particular example should be quietly dropped.

    Another Slugger exclusive.

  • john

    I wish to confirm that comments attrributed to john about £2,300 received were not the same john who began this thread, i.e. me.

    Clearly republicans are attempting to smear yet again. Don’t use my name, Nazis.

    The McCartney’s would clearly be typical SDLP voters if they didn’t come from Short Strand. They have done reasonably well because they have been positive about their lives and not sought to blame everyone else for their troubles like the typical Sinn Fein voter.

  • franc

    If the Official IRA are found to be guilty of this shooting , does it mean that they will have to decommision there remaining weapons?

    Pat Rabbitte might be able to use his influence with his former friends within The Workers Party
    to bring this about.

    After all Pat,no democratic party should have a private army.

  • peter

    heard a good joke last night.

    Whats the difference between Robert McCartney and Cinderella?,

    Cinderella only had two ugly sisters.

    hehe.

  • spartacus

    John doesn’t like Nazis. Its important to him that he not be associated with them.

    On the other hand he doesn’t mind insinuating that taigs who have not ‘done well’ (like the McCartney’s) are in that position because they are whingers and insufficiently positive about their lives. Perhaps some new age crystals would help, or aromatherapy, or an indecipherable chant in an as-yet-unknown language.

    The brilliant thing about this site is that you can get your fill of sectarian bigotry, and when you get tired of that there’s loads of class snobbery to go around. Never boring.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Franc,

    I think you’ll find Rabbitte left the WP over ten years ago, having come to the conclusion, along with most of his colleagues, that a party linked to such activities had no future. Is this the analogy you were grasping for?

  • Comrade Stalin

    “Given that the Official IRA were involved in the shooting of a youth in Albert St last night (all of thirty years after they called their ceasefire)”

    Innuendo and unsubstantiated allegations pour out of Pat McLarnon as usual.

  • franc

    jimmy

    I did state “former friends” in my last post

    Buthe may well still have some association or contacts with people within that organisation with whom he could speak to regarding this shooting incident

  • Henry94

    I see Catherine McCartney has had a pop at George Bush

    In an interview with The Village, a weekly magazine in Ireland, Catherine was outspoken about the American president. “On a personal level I find it very, very difficult to put ‘Bush’ and ‘justice’ in the same sentence. But I was trying to work around that,” she said.

    “That man, as you know, doesn’t even have a clue as to where Ireland is on the map, but it was getting to the ones behind him…people who have an impact. Not Bush himself.”

  • gary

    comrade stalin

    The dogs in the street know that there remains a rump of Official IRA people within certain Nationalist areas.Most of there activity is crime related and putting up Workers Party posters at election time.

    Would you agree that the Officials are still armed and willing to use force

  • john

    I see Catherine McCartney has had a pop at George Bush

    In an interview with The Village, a weekly magazine in Ireland, Catherine was outspoken about the American president. “On a personal level I find it very, very difficult to put ‘Bush’ and ‘justice’ in the same sentence. But I was trying to work around that,” she said.

    “That man, as you know, doesn’t even have a clue as to where Ireland is on the map, but it was getting to the ones behind him…people who have an impact. Not Bush himself.”

    “THATS GRATITUDE FOR YOU”

  • Pronsisas

    “THATS GRATITUDE FOR YOU”

    Catherine & the Mc Cartney sisters i guess wanted Bush to come to Ireland with guns blazing looking for the murderers of their brother as i said before “Bush isn’t interested”

    The Mc Cartneys are now the laughing stock of the place.

  • will

    Do the official ira still exist and if so why have they not been asked to get rid of their weapons

  • Comrade Stalin

    gary, the trouble is, whenever the dogs in the street are getting quoted Pat is the usually the first to dismiss it as unsubstantiated innuendo. Say we were talking about the bank robbery for example.

  • gary

    Comrade Stalin

    You failed to answer the question

  • Jimmy Sands

    “Buthe may well still have some association or contacts”

    Franc, if I have any barrels need scraping, I’ll get back to you ok?

  • steven

    people i have spoken to this evening confirm that the Official IRA carried out the shooting in the Markets area

  • Comrade Stalin

    gary, I didn’t answer your question because I don’t know. My point is substantially different.

    It’s just bothersome the way people like Pat dispense with the need for substantiated commentary when they feel like it and as long as it suits them. If the dogs in the street or “some people I talked to” are talking about the bank robbery and blaming Sinn Fein, it’s innuendo, propaganda, invented rubbish. But conveniently, now that a chance has come up to attack one of Sinn Fein’s opponent organizations, we find the “word on the street” getting wheeled out and people remarking that they have confirmed things by speaking to Those Who Know.

    I wish republicans could just be consistent. That’s all.

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    “John” shouldn’t be so precious about those using the name John to comment here given that it is one of the most common names in Christendom – and when I say common I don’t mean any disrespect.

  • PatMcLarnon

    ‘now that a chance has come up to attack one of Sinn Fein’s opponent organizations, we find the “word on the street” ‘

    The Officials or WorKers Party have long ceased to be a credible opponent of anyone. I have never used the phrase ‘word on the street’.

  • comrade shebeen

    According to one newspaper today,local reports suggested that a senior member of the Official IRA was invoved in the shooting incident in Albert street, after a fight in a bar.

    The Workers Party denied the report….because they would have known about it,if it had happened
    Wink! Wink! comrade