Victim Of The Month Club

Much as we like to believe we eschew the idea of a hierarchy of victims, inevitably some campaigns catch on better than others. The causes of, for example the Finucane and NcCartney families are obviously meritorious in their own right, but have both drawn strength from their ability to attract the support of those with an interest in causing damage to those (allegedly) responsible. Bearing this in mind, it is intriguing to see the Sunday Business Post taking up the cudgels (for the first time?) on behalf of the family of a murdered police officer.

The article is strangely coy, particularly as the dead cannot sue, in dealing with allegations which in fact have been in the public domain for some time. Cui bono indeed?

  • Davros

    Jimmy – you need to edit the “allegations” link.

    Fixed. Thanks. [js]

  • Concerned Loyalist

    There is most definitely a hierarchy of victims in Northern Ireland! How are the atrocities set out below, carried out in the pursuit of “Irish unity”, any less horrendous than;

    1)the killing of a solicitor who was the brother of a Provo and who himself was a sympathiser and solicitor to the IRA,

    2)the murder of a fellow republican by a Rafia gang outside a bar?

    ENNISKILLEN (PIRA), LA MON (PIRA), KINGSMILLS (PIRA), DARKLEY (INLA), OMAGH (RIRA aided by CIRA), TEEBANE (PIRA), BIRMINGHAM and GUILDFORD (PIRA), WARRINGTON (PIRA), BRIGHTON (PIRA), CLAUDY (PIRA aided by the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH) and the SHANKILL twice (PIRA).

    AND THOSE ARE ONLY A FEW OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD!!!

  • Davros

    CL – please don’t shout !

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Is that your well thought-out response to what I have to say?

  • Jacko

    CL
    Perhaps it would be more productive if instead of looking backwards and ignoring the mote in your own eye you directed your concerns towards how we might deal with the loyalist gangsters currently inflicting more misery on the working class unionist community than even the provos could manage.

  • Davros

    Is that your well thought-out response to what I have to say?

    people here are often prepared to discuss in a friendly and productive manner CL. However putting most of your post in capitals often kills the discussion. I think you make perfectly valid points.
    But if you want to engage with others It’ll be better not to shout.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Forgive me if I feel you are being just ever so slightly patronising

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Jacko,
    I agree that so-called Loyalists, who are actually nothing other than gangsters, have damaged Loyalist communities throughout the country.

    In their defence though, the two largest Loyalist groups are dealing with this problem and want to rid their respective organisations of the dregs of society which currently permeate their ranks… this is why a certain bleached-blonde, vain as hell Brigadier in East Belfast has been stood down by the UDA’s Inner Council.

  • Alan

    In their defence?

    Come off it! They provide the structure on which the obscenity of paramilitarism grows. Standing someone down can only happen if there is a position to be stood down from. As the structures themselves are both illegal and parasitical, their intent to cleanse themselves is a self-serving sham. It is time for paramilitarism to end and for local communities to be freed from the garotte that the paramilitaries have strung around their necks.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Approximately 35-40,000 people are members of the Ulster Defence Asssociation and somewhere between 5-10,000 are members of the smaller Ulster Volunteer Force.

    These men and women have grievances that are so bad that they are willing to break the law in “joining up” and willing to risk their lives in the case of the “active” volunteers.

    To solve the problem of continuing paramilitarism you have to understand the reasons people join, and work on eradicating these grievances once and for all!

    To end the “conflict” you have to make the “cause” no longer an issue

  • Davros

    Approximately 35-40,000 people are members of the Ulster Defence Asssociation and somewhere between 5-10,000 are members of the smaller Ulster Volunteer Force.

    aye, right 🙂 I’m beginning to wonder if this is another manifestation of “ulsterman”.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Davros,
    These are not random figures pulled from the sky.
    They are figures believed to be true by members of the aforementioned organisations and also by respected commentators and analysts of Loyalism.

  • Davros

    Aye, right… LOL …care to name some independent commentators and analysts who say that the UDA and UVF today can muster Circa 50,000 members ?
    Remind me how many votes their political front parties polled ? 50,000 ? 10,000? Nah – nowhere near it.

    I think you are here to try and discredit the broad unionist community. We have seen those tactics before from the seedier side of the RM.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Davros,
    I am not “trying to discredit the broad unionist community”… I love my country and am proud I was born into the Protestant faith and am a true Loyalist through and through.

    As for your point on the votes the UDP and PUP got in elections determining the number of members the UDA and UVF have respectively. This does not hold up for the following reasons;

    1) The UYM – the youth wing of the UDA, has members as young as 15 in their ranks so they could not vote in the first place, and I believe the YCV – the youth wing of the UVF, to be the same.

    2) Both the organisations have strong powerbases in Scotland and England, thus their members on the mainland are unable to vote in N.I. elections.

    3) Not all members of the UDA and UVF vote for their political representatives for differing reasons. This was evident in the case of Billy Wright, who spoke out against the UVF for putting pressure on its members to vote PUP, rather than letting them follow their heart.

    On your point on independent analysts;
    Are you familiar with Ian S. Lee’s work? He wrote a book called “GOD GUNS AND ULSTER” in which he estimates the modern-day UDA numbers over 30,000.

  • Davros

    I would think this would be a more accurate assessment (You are claiming that there are more in the UDA now than in the 1970’s!)

    Membership: At its peak in the mid-1970s, the UDA could organise 30,000 members on the streets of Belfast. Its current strength is probably several thousand with a few hundred being ‘active’ in the Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF) a cover name used by the UDA.

    Every so often we see these sorts of inflated figures bandied about by people trying scare tactics – “Keep the IRA, there are tens of thousands of bogey-men just waiting for them to disarm and disband”.

    Sad but predictable.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    I will look into it and try and give you more references, but notice that he says
    “30,00 on the streets of Belfast” – what about the rest of the UK?

  • Alan

    CL,

    You are talking absolute twaddle. Why are you talking absolute twaddle. let’s see –

    What are these *grievances* that we are suddenly hearing about? Presumably these grievances are not specific to NI, or you wouldn’t mention the English and Scottish members.

    How might UDA and UVF *grievances* be worse than anyone else’s? Why would their grievances require consideration more than people who live in the same conditions and also have to put up with the intimidation, drug racketeering and vice that is organised by those same paramilitaries?

    As for numbers, you bring me the membership lists and I will count the names for you.

    If this indicates the level of the political analysis that the UDA et al are receiving, then I dispair any movement short of a sustained drive to force them to disband.

  • Jacko

    CL

    Kid yourself if you must with talk of grievances, large numbers, recruitment of children etc. etc. etc.
    But spare the rest of us.
    Drug dealing, intimidation, sectarianism, extortion, beatings, murder etc. is the stock in trade of those people. Call gangsterism whatever you like, but it is still gangsterism.

  • Colm

    These men and women have grievances that are so bad that they are willing to break the law in “joining up” and willing to risk their lives in the case of the “active” volunteers.

    CL

    Would you be so empathetic in understanding the reasons for membership of the IRA ?

  • Alan

    To quote the boul Willowfield (whatever happened to Willowfield?)

    I’m still waiting for a response to my 02:41, CL.

  • Keith M

    “whatever happened to Willowfield?” He’s shopping for a moped to get all the UUP MPs to Westminster in June.

  • Jacko

    Yes Alan, good point.

    What has happened to Willowfield?

    As for: “These men and women have grievances that are so bad that they are willing to break the law in “joining up” and willing to risk their lives in the case of the “active” volunteers.”

    Risking their lives doing what, exactly?
    Very few ever risked their lives, and any that did are now mostly retired.
    Those who, like CL I suspect, became “active” loyalists anytime over the past 11 years of ceasefire have done so for very questionable reasons. The same applies to all the republican Johnny-come-lately soldiers.
    Rush to the ranks when you are sure the “war” is over. Very courageous indeed.