Pope John Paul II (1920-2005)

Pope John Paul II, born Karol Wojtyla in 1920, in a small town near Krakow, Poland, has died. The announcement came from papal spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls and was distributed to journalists via e-mail. RTE has an obituary online… while the Guardian has, what some may say is, a more critical view of the man and his papacy.

  • Biffo

    “..it was up to you the Church of Rome would go back to their old tried and tested method of burning Protestant “heretics” on a stake…shame on you!”

    Concerbed Loyalist

    Maybe you prefer the traditional protestant method of hanging catholics, mutilating them, burning and then sticking whatever was left on spike as a warning to other catholics not to be catholics.

    I note the pope was advised not to come north during his visit to Ireland. Not surprising condidering the brainwashed sectarian attitudes of people like you?

    Are you for real, or an agent provocateur?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    smcgiff,
    Good riddance. You are the single most bigoted and sectarian poster I have ever come across on Slugger – even worse than the likes of “barney” and “pat mclarnon” which is saying something!

  • Biffo

    Concerned Loyalist

    Are you a nationalist trying to make protestants look bad?

  • marty

    Concerned Loyalist,

    Sorry to play the man and not the ball, but I enjoy reading informed debate on this site not sectarian nonsense. Come back to the thread when you have something constructive to add.

  • maca

    CL
    “You are the single most bigoted and sectarian poster I have ever come across on Slugger”

    Fair go CL, Séamus bigoted and sectarian?? Not a chance.

    Lay off the personal attacks, we can have a discussion/argument without them.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “Seamus bigoted and sectarian???”,

    I am speaking from personal experience on Slugger and do not know the man but that is what came across

  • maca

    CL
    I’m quite surprised as I believe the man to be the exact opposite. A Cork langer maybe, but not bigoted! 😉

  • Concerned Loyalist

    marty,
    I am not sectarian and have plenty of Roman Catholics so I’m offended at that jibe to be honest

  • Concerned Loyalist

    IMO he is sectarian but you are entitled to your own opinion

  • smcgiff

    ‘A Cork langer maybe, but not bigoted!’

    Sniff, at least someone understands me! 🙂

    Apologies to all if I was duped into an argument pushing a hidden agenda.

    In my defence, I felt more moved at John Paul II’s passing than I can effectively explain why.

  • Alan2

    “”Infalliable on matters of doctine of faith”

    Not in my opinion”

    That would class you as a heretic 😉

  • Davros

    Seamus mate, you have nothing to apologise for, you are the one who has been wronged here. I dare say you, like everybody else, have a few prejudices tucked away, but if everybody had your degree of sectarianism then Northern Ireland would be one hell of a lot better a place.

  • foreign correspondent

    With the way this thread’s turning out I think I’ll stick to good old tried and tested lapsed Catholic-tinged agnosticism. Do agnostics go to hell as well lads? 🙂

  • marty

    CL,

    apologies if you’re offended, but when you come off with all the “one faith, one crown” stuff it’s hard not to extract any other conclusions.

    Cheers.

  • Alan2

    “Paisleyite
    “An open-minded sort of a fellow aren’t we?”

    Pretty much actually. Just that’s there’s some people not worth listening to, especially when they have spent 30 odd years insulting me, my country, my language and my religion.”

    You might therefore be interested to learn that at the recent Easter Convention on the Ravenhill Rd there was an ex-Catholic gardai giving his testimoney, a minister from Cork and another minister from the West of Ireland who is forming the Irish Gospel Mission Hall. Also heard the testimony of a Catholic girl who converted along with her dying father only to be shunned by the family and also a project smuggling Chinese language bibles into China and missionary work in Kenya.

    “Remember this is the man who yelled “I denounce you. Anti-Christ” to the Pope. And you think I should take anything he has to say seriously?
    Paisleyite
    “”Anti-Christ” means “in the place of Christ”. I believe the Pope does indeed place himself in the role of Christ.”
    You can try to explain it away whatever way you like. It was a direct insult to the Pope, the Roman Catholic church and every Roman Catholic on the planet”

    Actually it was the papacy he was refering to. Paisley saying such things is hardly new thinking..it has been said by most of the major reformers since the 1500,s and is indeed in the foreword of the King James Bible.

    The thing you need to understand about that is that it is entirely possible to be a good person and do good works but not go to heaven. Alot of people seem to think the bible says that you are judged by good who weighs up your sins against your good deeds….however scriptures actually say that salvation is through grace and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ ALONE. The very devil believes in Jesus that in itself is not enough.

  • IJP

    Lack of compassion? Only the brainwashed could sum up the 26 years as Pope with such a statement.

    Well said, Ringo.

    I’ll tell you something now as a practising Protestant, the Pope’s actions were much, much nearer those you’d expect from a man of God than Paisley’s.

    As for the bile from CL and the like… Slugger is for informed debate on the issues, if you’re not interested in that, take your disrespectful, hate-filled claptrap elsewhere.

  • Alan2

    Thats all I have to say on the matter at this time. A person is dead and no matter who they are or what their beliefs that is to be respected.

  • Alan2

    Concerned Loyalist – you might want to take a listen to last nights sermon (www. sermonaudio.com )in Magherafelt Free P church on idols. The man comes from Broughshane and he gives his testimony on how he was involved in the loyalist band scene in his youth and how his faith has led him away from such idols in his life.

  • smcgiff

    Er, thanks, Davros… I think. 😉

  • No to Sinn Fein/IRA, No to the Pope, No to Dublin & No to Socialism

    SMcGiff wrote, quote: “The fact that the vast majority of your fellow Christians understand is quite satisfactory in my book.” Then I suppose when Myra Hindley died, SMcGiff crossed himself, said, “God bless her soul” and abandoned his critical thinking skills, good judgement and tongue as an act of charity and good will to one of the country’s worst killers. Why do that for any man, of whatever reputation?

  • No to Sinn Fein/IRA, No to the Pope, No to Dublin & No to Socialism

    SMcGiff wrote, quote: “The fact that the vast majority of your fellow Christians understand is quite satisfactory in my book.” Then I suppose when Myra Hindley died, SMcGiff crossed himself, said, “God bless her soul” and abandoned his critical thinking skills, good judgement and tongue as an act of charity and good will to one of the country’s worst killers. Why do that for any man, of whatever reputation?

  • No to Sinn Fein/IRA, No to the Pope, No to Dublin & No to Socialism

    SMcGiff wrote, quote: “The fact that the vast majority of your fellow Christians understand is quite satisfactory in my book.” Then I suppose when Myra Hindley died, SMcGiff crossed himself, said, “God bless her soul” and abandoned his critical thinking skills, good judgement and tongue as an act of charity and good will to one of the country’s worst killers. Why do that for any man, of whatever reputation?

  • No to Sinn Fein/IRA, No to the Pope, No to Dublin & No to Socialism

    SMcGiff wrote, quote: “The fact that the vast majority of your fellow Christians understand is quite satisfactory in my book.” Then I suppose when Myra Hindley died, SMcGiff crossed himself, said, “God bless her soul” and abandoned his critical thinking skills, good judgement and tongue as an act of charity and good will to one of the country’s worst killers. Why do that for any man, of whatever reputation?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Alan

    Maybe you can help me out on something I have never understood? If Calvinists believe in predestination (and therefore, what they do, or do not do on earth will be irrelevant in the next life) then why are they known for their austerity? If ever a group of people should be partying like its 1999, surely it should be they?

  • Alan2

    Ahh…meat….
    Pre destination is acceptance of the sovereignty of God – that God knows everything that was, is and will be, that God is infinite, eternal and all powerful and therefore knows already who will be saved and who will not (which is quite frightening really). With regards to your question – you are saved through grace (justification, sanctification etc) when the holy spirit infills you and you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour. In my church atleast being “saved” is instantaneous although you then “grow with the Lord” and can also “backslide” but once saved always saved whereas other believe you can become “unsaved” again. You are still however a sinner BUT the main difference is that you KNOW you are. And you will be burdened for souls and to do good works in the name of the Lord to lead by example etc…so while it is certainly something to be rejoicing in salvation it is also very very sad to see those outside salvation…..and that does not mean a single denomination is the right one but rather that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ ALONE. Hope this helps

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Alan

    “Pre destination is acceptance of the sovereignty of God – that God knows everything that was, is and will be, that God is infinite, eternal and all powerful and therefore knows already who will be saved and who will not (which is quite frightening really).”

    This is very interesting. Catholics believe in the sovereignty and infinity and omniscience and omnipresence of God too – but also that he is a just God. I’m sure all Christians – indeed all who believe in God – believe that too.

    “With regards to your question – you are saved through grace (justification, sanctification etc) when the holy spirit infills you and you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour.”

    Catholics too believe in salvation through Christ, though not predestination.

    Do you see my point though? If salvation or damnation is pre-ordained, then it doesn’t make any difference how you live – BUT Calvinists, who do believe this, often live particularly exemplary lives. It seems an interesting paradox – not of theology, perhaps more of sociology – that some of the most austere Christians are the very ones whose reading of scripture gives them the freedom to live with most abandon.

    “In my church atleast being “saved” is instantaneous although you then “grow with the Lord” and can also “backslide” but once saved always saved whereas other believe you can become “unsaved” again.”

    I have never understood the `saved’ thing, though I have read testimonies of Christians who have spoken of the moment they became saved. How do you know when you are saved?

    “You are still however a sinner BUT the main difference is that you KNOW you are.”

    Let me assure you, all Catholics know this one only too well. Whatever else about the Catholic church, it has the whole sinner thing down…

    “And you will be burdened for souls and to do good works in the name of the Lord to lead by example etc…so while it is certainly something to be rejoicing in salvation it is also very very sad to see those outside salvation…..and that does not mean a single denomination is the right one but rather that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ ALONE. Hope this helps”

    Thanks Alan.

  • Stalford

    Alan2

    Excellently summarised. Well done.

  • foreign correspondent

    When I talk to resolutely materialist and unreligious people I often wish they would think a little bit more about the big questions of existence and death etc. But when I hear people talk who are convinced that they are ‘saved’, that theirs is the true faith, be it Catholic, Protestant, Moslem or whatever, I get very uneasy. Basically I think I prefer shallow materialists to the religious fundies out there. They tend to be less dangerous…
    Is this all going a bit off-topic?

  • Alan2

    “I have never understood the `saved’ thing, though I have read testimonies of Christians who have spoken of the moment they became saved. How do you know when you are saved?”

    You just know. It is life changing. Its not like hearing voices or anything but just a complete change of heart and outlook, a “feeling”. I have heard testimonies of complete and utter drunkards and druggies being saved at missions and they just change their lives utterly and live for God.

    Read the first verses of John 3 here

  • maca

    Alan2
    “Paisley saying such things is hardly new thinking..it has been said by most of the major reformers since the 1500,s and is indeed in the foreword of the King James Bible.”

    So does that excuse his comment & behaviour?

    “The thing you need to understand about that is that it is entirely possible to be a good person and do good works but not go to heaven.”

    Not in my book. I’m of the belief that good people to go heaven, simple as that.

  • Alan2

    “So does that excuse his comment & behaviour?”

    I`m not excusing him. In fact I agree with that anaylsis as does every major Protestant Church including the Church Of Ireland`s confession of faith.

    “The thing you need to understand about that is that it is entirely possible to be a good person and do good works but not go to heaven.”

    Not in my book. I’m of the belief that good people to go heaven, simple as that.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion but can I ask on what you base that opinion?

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained [2] that we should walk in them.

    Romans 9:32
    Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

  • smcgiff

    “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)

    As we are quoting, Alan2, could you tell me while one person in the world is starving why any of us in the western world can go to heaven?

  • maca

    Alan2
    “Everyone is entitled to their opinion but can I ask on what you base that opinion?”

    Nothing in black and white such as scriptures for example. Just the way I have formed my own beliefs which I felt was necessary (I have serious doubts about the bible) to maintain my faith, if that makes sense? 😉

  • smcgiff

    ‘Romans 9:32
    Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;’

    I think the official answer to my next question is ‘Tough Du Du’, but I’ll ask it anyway,

    This would mean those that could not possibly have heard of Christ, lets say, aborigines living 500 years ago, could not go to heaven. This makes life meaningless and completely oversimplifies God’s plan and it assumes God cares for man unequally.

    The problem with Doctrine is that it catches itself out – such as:

    God is omnipotent, therefore God knows everything. That means there is predestination by definition. That means man’s freewill is meaningless. Which means the whole thing can only be that the Earth is a complicated soap opera for a bored superior being.

    Alan2, I can only stand in wonder at how anyone can have faith. I’m the poorer one.

  • maca

    “I can only stand in wonder at how anyone can have faith. I’m the poorer one”

    I think that is why I have essentially formed my own simple beliefs. I think it’s about blind faith, choose to believe and don’t question it or question it and risk discovering that it’s is a sham.

    There’s too many open questions, and as an scientist/engineer I can’t accept that 😉

  • smcgiff

    ‘question it and risk discovering that it’s is a sham.’

    DOH! Now they tell me!!!! 😉

  • Alan2

    Look at it the other way. No predestination…god does not know everything or what is going to happen. He is not therefore all powerful..so that means that it should be possible for men to become as God right?

    The other explanation is that we are just a chance coming together of chemicals which exploded out of nothingness or perhaps a very very small area of mass spinning very fast that contained an entire universe worth of materials. Of course this actually goes against the laws of thermo dynamics since it is impossible to actualluy create energy and also goes against angular momentum as even when things fly off or explode on something that is spinning they retain that spinning yet many many planets spin counter clockwise.

  • maca

    “DOH! Now they tell me!!!!”

    ;)Of course I don’t know for sure since I haven’t taken that risk 😉

    And no offence intended to those who do actually believe…

  • maca

    Actually if we go the science route it does pose the very interesting question, where did it all begin? I mean long before the big bang, long before those elements met in deep space, back to the birth of the very first particle … wrap your minds around that one.

  • visitor

    “God is omnipotent, therefore God knows everything”.

    Poor logic, abysmal syllogism.

    That God can know everything means that God must know everything?

    Who are we to deny God the choice of not knowing what he could know?

  • smcgiff

    ‘Look at it the other way.’
    I believe 100% in predestination (although from a scientific POV), so I’m with you up to that point. It’s after that it gets sticky…
    ‘The other explanation is that…’
    But it’s not the only explanation, there’s my God loves a Soap Opera explanation, which may be ridiculous at least its more honest than to think of a God that thinks anyone not hearing the word of Christ are acceptable losses.

  • maca

    smcgiff
    “I believe 100% in predestination…”

    For some reason i’m of the opinion that the next second is unwritten, that each new second means a gazillion different outcomes …

  • smcgiff

    ‘Who are we to deny God the choice of not knowing what he could know?’

    You mean, your God’s in denial? What, he likes to be kept in suspense? I thought he’d be above all that.

    Your God is not omnipotent, because you’re suggesting, ‘He can’t handle the truth!’.

    More importantly, WHY would knowing or not knowing make a difference to a perfect, omnipotent God.

    Stay behind in class, Visitor.

  • spirit-level

    Alan2
    I wish you knew yourself as much as you know the bible chapter and verse.
    we can all quote that bollocks.
    The point is we all need to look in the mirror!

  • visitor

    smcgiff,

    “WHY would knowing or not knowing make a difference to a perfect, omnipotent God”.

    Maybe because, as ensouled creatures, God really does want us to have free will and a choice between joining him in heaven by, among other things, living righteous lives.

    Maybe we are more than soulless angels, creatures which God can apparently work up in the blink of an eye.

    Maybe, in this free-will respect, we really are created in God’s image.

    “Stay behind in class, Visitor.” No, smcgiff, the problem may well be in your own lack of imagination.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Alan

    “Look at it the other way. No predestination…god does not know everything or what is going to happen. He is not therefore all powerful..so that means that it should be possible for men to become as God right?”

    I believe God loves us, he wants us to be happy and he wants us all to be saved. I believe in hell but I don’t necessarily believe anyone has ever gone there. I believe God knows the outcome of our lives and our fates, but not that he predetermines them. He doesn’t save or damn us, but he could if he chose to, and he knows before we are even born which of us will save ourselves, and which of us won’t.

    That’s not predestination though. That way God gives us all a chance, and is still all-knowing and all-powerful. But he is sparing and merciful and on our side. That’s my guy.

  • smcgiff

    ‘No, smcgiff, the problem may well be in your own lack of imagination.’

    Have a heart, Visitor. Pity the poor Atheist, who has to defend his stance, not against religion, but a multitude of faiths. Those that believe in divine pre-destination and those that don’t. Those that open their egg at the tip and those at the base.

    It’s less a lack of imagination, more like which religious doctrine will I be asked to question next.

    I do note though, that it was me, a non-believer, you questioned over predestination and not your fellow Christian. Is this union solidarity?

  • visitor

    smcgiff,

    “I do note though, that it was me, a non-believer, you questioned over predestination and not your fellow Christian. Is this union solidarity?”

    Not at all. If someone says he believes in predestination, it’s just a statement of subjective fact (it doesn’t go to whether the belief is well-founded). Besides, I didn’t read the others all that closely on that point (from reading some of your other postings, I reckoned you’d do better).

    Your approach on predestination tried, by contrast, to use logic to establish the point, and I thought your logic wrong (and I was right).

    Nonetheless, at your request, please do accept my pity regarding that argument (which, in truth, I did find pitifully in error).

    If you’re not predestined to fail to do better on your next attempt, I’ll look forward to reading it.

  • smcgiff

    ‘For some reason i’m of the opinion that the next second is unwritten, that each new second means a gazillion different outcomes …’

    It’s a little like this.

    Say we’re watching a video of Ireland Vs England in Stuttgart, 1988 ;-), then Houghton will head the ball into the net every time we play it. Likewise, if we could go back in time (impossible) and view the game and not affect a single factor (impossible), then Houghton would again score the goal. He would score because every single atom/action/thought/sense would be in place to make him score that goal. The very same is true of an instant in 10,000 or a million years time. We are all victims of action and reaction and our destiny was set at the moment of creation (big bang/God – take your pick). For example, a reunification or not of Ireland is set in destiny.

    I believe if you had a powerful enough computer and could program all the variables action/reactions in the world into this Dell PC (due for production in 20022005 AD) you could predict the future.

  • smcgiff

    ‘If you’re not predestined to fail to do better on your next attempt, I’ll look forward to reading it.’

    At least you’ve a sense of humour, which means you get a C+ for effort, but…

    ‘Your approach on predestination tried, by contrast, to use logic to establish the point, and I thought your logic wrong (and I was right).’

    I wasn’t any more wrong than you, I picked holes in your argument. Your ‘Maybe’ argument doesn’t cut it. Maybe God really does like a good Soap Opera, eh?

  • visitor

    smcgiff,

    “I picked holes in your argument”? Such as: “You mean, your God’s in denial? What, he likes to be kept in suspense?”?? No, that’s not picking holes. The “in denial” point was kind of silly (I said we should not deny something, not that he was in denial (which, in this context, means knowing something but pretending not to know it)).

    “Likes to be kept in suspense”? Maybe he does, maybe not, maybe it’s just part of the price he elected to pay in this “free will for ensouled beings” adventure.

    After all, what’s the fun in a soap opera if you know all the results?

    You may not be wrong on predestination existing, but your attempt at establishing it with logic failed. Thus, you are more wrong than I am.

    Glad, though, you discerned the attempt at humour.

  • smcgiff

    (which, in this context, means knowing something but pretending not to know it)).

    Hey, I’m getting to like your God. He likes to pretend? Do you think I can look forward to charades in the after life?

    ‘maybe it’s just part of the price he elected to pay in this “free will for ensouled beings” adventure.’

    Whether or not God allows himself to know or not doesn’t remove the fact that predestination occurs. God would only be fooling himself. Us poor mortals would have our faiths sealed regardless of who knew.

    The only difference is that God gets to take off the Blindfold eventually and go, ‘ah, yeah, I knew he was going to go to hell. You could tell by the end of Act 1’.

    ‘After all, what’s the fun in a soap opera if you know all the results?’

    Why do I get the impression I’m being wound up for a second time today on this thread! 🙁

  • maca

    Of course maybe you’re all wrong and there is no God. Maybe you’re all just figments of my imagination, in which case I really ought to lay off the wine gums…

    smcgiff
    “It’s a little like this…”
    Interesting theory grasshopper 😉
    Not sure I buy it but it’s as good a theory as anything.

  • smcgiff

    ‘Of course maybe you’re all wrong and there is no God. Maybe you’re all just figments of my imagination, in which case I really ought to lay off the wine gums…’

    *hick* Sorry to break it to you, but, if anything, you’re a figment of my imag.. imagingg… mind, *hick*

  • visitor

    smcgiff,

    “Hey, I’m getting to like your God. He likes to pretend? Do you think I can look forward to charades in the after life?”

    Hey, mcgiff, that’s not what I said or what I have been saying. Read again. I think that our omnipotent God could know all but chooses not to know all in order that we might indeed have free will.

    “Whether or not God allows himself to know or not doesn’t remove the fact that predestination occurs”. “The fact”? What “fact”? You mean “the fact” which you merely assert to be a “fact”?

    How about splitting the difference? How about: some people are predestined to make erroneous and unsupported arguments and some people have the free will to point out those errors?

  • smcgiff

    “The fact”? What “fact”? You mean “the fact” which you merely assert to be a “fact”?

    I’m glad you brought this up. There is no proof God exists. Fact. QED.

  • visitor

    smcgiff,

    “There is no proof God exists.”

    Gee, is that why we describe religions as systems of belief? Thanks much for the further insight.

    In fairness, maybe the fates have decreed that you do no better.

  • smcgiff

    ‘Gee, is that why we describe religions as systems of belief? Thanks much for the further insight.’

    A thousand apologies, I thought you were knocking my arguments because you questioned their factuality.

    The religious are not alone in being able to put forward arguments. You can knock mine, while being able to sit back and play the, ‘Hey, I believe, man.’ card.

    They’ve been doing that for thousands of years. I was kind of hoping you had more than that tired expression to offer. Not for the first time this evening you’ve disappointed me.

  • foreign correspondent

    There is a theory, which will be anathema to believers but which I quite like:
    The Universe is because it is, no more, no less. It is in a constant process of recreating itself, through Big Bangs and Big Crunches and what have you. This is an infinite cycle and every now and then the conditions for self-conscious life are created like now- basically meaning that us being here really is just a product of chance.
    I had a teacher at school who used to say that God must exist because how else could you explain the majesty behind music like that of Beethoven, or someone like that. I never quite got the logic of that.
    I’d turn it round and say he/she/ doesn’t exist-how else you can explain the existence of a song like:
    ‘I’m a Barbie girl in a Barbie World’
    I’d better go. It’s time for my medication again…

  • maca

    “some people are predestined to make erroneous and unsupported arguments and some people have the free will to point out those errors?”

    …or you’re predestined to point out those errors, if they are errors at all…

  • smcgiff

    ‘I’m a Barbie girl in a Barbie World’

    That’s not proof God doesn’t exist. That’s proof the devil exists!!! 😉

    Now, after me, life is plastic, so fantastic… !

  • maca

    FC
    “The Universe is because it is, no more, no less. It is in a constant process of recreating itself, through Big Bangs and Big Crunches and what have you….”

    Question: where did it start?

    C’mon barbie, let’s go party!

  • visitor

    smcgiff,

    If you try to apply logic to a system of belief, try doing it correctly.

    “God is omnipotent, therefore God knows everything” is, once again, poor logic … that “conclusion” simply does not inevitably follow, for the reasons I have suggested in this thread.

    This criticism does not turn on whether one believes or does not believe in God. It turns on whether one is able to follow a logical thought process and whether one is able to admit the truth of a logical analysis. Which one of those abilities is proving the difficulty here?

  • smcgiff

    As I said, if God is omnipotent, God knows everything. Which part of ALL-KNOWING don’t you understand?

  • vistor

    smcgiff:

    You’re apparently confusing the words “omnipotent” and “omniscient”.

    If you’re trying to tell us “God is omniscient, therefore God knows everything,” you’re not telling us very much.

  • foreign correspondent

    Maca:
    Questions:

    1) What is the sound of one hand clapping?

    2) What was your original face before your parents were born?

    3) Is Foreign Correspondent recycling zen koans in a mock attempt at profundity because he can’t think of any good answer to your question?

    4) Does Visitor need to lighten up?

    5) Has this thread now moved about 100 light years away from its starting point?

    I have many questions, but precious few answers 🙂

  • smcgiff

    You’re boring me now.

    How can one be all powerful and not know everything? i.e. Power over all knowledge?

  • visitor

    smcgiff,

    “How can one be all powerful and not know everything?”

    I have the full power to hold my chair up in the air, yet it rests on the floor. How can that be?

    The answer: because, though I have the power to hold my chair up in the air, I choose, of my own free will, not to do so at this moment.

    How can God be all-powerful yet not know details the future of man? Because he chooses not to know them such they might actually have the free will to take decisions for themselves.

    smcgiff, if this bores you, it may be because logic really ain’t your bag.

  • smcgiff

    ‘they might actually have the free will to take decisions for themselves.’

    God’s knowledge and man’s freewill have nothing to do with each other. I thought I covered this before.

    ‘The answer: because, though I have the power to hold my chair up in the air, I choose, of my own free will, not to do so at this moment.’

    Eh, and that explains what exactly?

    ‘smcgiff, if this bores you, it may be because logic really ain’t your bag.’

    It’s not that I’m not bored, although this will probably be my last post of the evening, I just hate to leave you uneducated. I fear I have failed.

  • visitor

    smcgiff:

    Don’t worry, you have taught me something.

  • smcgiff

    Thanks, but I’ll resist. 😉

  • maca

    1) What is the sound of one hand clapping?

    This, listen …

    2) What was your original face before your parents were born?

    There was no me so no face…

    3) Is Foreign Correspondent recycling zen koans in a mock attempt at profundity because he can’t think of any good answer to your question?

    I have my suspicions… 😉

    4) Does Visitor need to lighten up?

    Might be no harm…

    5) Has this thread now moved about 100 light years away from its starting point?

    Pretty much a normal slugger thread then…

  • Alan2

    “There’s too many open questions, and as an scientist/engineer I can’t accept that ;)”

    Maca – Science has many open questions and theories

    Billy Pilgrim –
    “That’s not predestination though.” I would say there is very little difference. There is no real way of knowing but the point is ..God KNOWS already.

    FC –
    “It is in a constant process of recreating itself, through Big Bangs and Big Crunches”

    Really? Then where did the initial material come from and where did the energy come from for the “big bang” because the law of thermodynamics clearly states that you cannot create energy but that is changes from one type of energy to another?

  • ken hood

    john paul beatified the cleric in charge of the murder of at least 700’000 helpless serbs , one cardinal pavelic as respected journalist avro manhattan points out ( see his web site). this has got to be at least a bad mistake .

  • maca

    That sounds like total bullshit to me Ken. I presume you can back that up somehow?

  • Davros

    Maca – I think “Ken Hood” might have confused Pavelic with Archbishop then Cardinal Stepinac who was beatified by John paul II, whose endorsement of the Utashe regime is a terrible blot on the Church, especially as The Church has yet to apologise for it’s involvement with crimes against the various non RC groups in Croatia.

  • Davros

    sugar – can a Mod. correct – only the “Was” was supposed to be in bold. Ta.