IRA should publish their inquiry

The shoe appears to be on the other foot in Derry, where the IRA is itself the subject of calls for openness about its activities. The family of Mark ‘Mousey’ Robinson has asked again for the IRA to publish the details of their internal inquiry into his death, which they allege was carried out by members of the IRA.

  • beano @ Everything Ulster

    Does it even bother the Rafia that these calls and criticisms are now coming from the people in “their own community”? Or are they immune to criticism because they’ve so successfully brainwashed their supporters into thinking that everything they do is in the pursuit of freedom, justice, equality, etc, (repeat random buzzwords ad nauseum)

    I get the feeling they don’t feel answerable to anyone, least of all ordinary people.

  • J Kelly

    The only people in Derry who are taking this or the Mc Ginley campaign seriously are their families. There are all sorts of rumours running about who killed Mark Robinson and justice has been served for DD Mc Ginley. In relation to Mark Robinson maybe its time to look a little closer to home.

  • lámh dearg

    Here we go again, if anyone in the Nationalist Community dares question the Provo justice in their area, just smear them with innuendo.

    Thus in the early McCartney threads here we had posters suggest that they knew/heard a “different” version, a claim not repeated since Gerry took the crime seriously. Now ” it’s time to look closer to home” about another murder victim.

    Pass the sick bag

  • Dualta

    To say that only the Robinsons or the McGinleys are the only people in Derry taking this seriously is not the case and the Provisional Movement know just how damaging these cases could be to them if handled badly. Virtual silence seems to be the approach they’ve chosen to take at this stage.

    The damage potential was very apparent when Mitchell McLaughlin went on record on BBC Radio Foyle and stated that the meetings between the IRA and the McGinley family did not take place. So is the dead man’s family guilty of lying in the national press and on national TV? That’s some porky if they are.

    The Provisionals interfered with the family of a bereaved man during the trail, for murder, of the man who killed him. It was disgraceful behaviour. Why did they do that? Is the fact that Bart Fisher, the man convicted of McGinley’s manslaughter is on the Republican paramilitary wing of Maghaberry prison anything to do with it?

    There is a significant amount of support for both families across Derry and Ireland, basically because so many have suffered injustice at the hands of the Provisionals and many have been witness to these injustices.

    The evidence around the involvement of the IRA in Mark Robinson’s murder is convincing enough for many to believe that they were involved. To suggest that the Robinsons should ‘look a little closer to home’ for his murderers is pretty vile, to be honest.

    Firstly there was the public admission by the man convicted of Jimmy McGinley’s manslaughter that he had wielded the knife used to stab Robinson eleven times on the night he was murdered. A compelling tesimony for this was given by Margaret Devine to the press, the wife of the 10th Hunger Striker, Michael Devine. Not even many Provisionals will disbelieve her account.

    Secondly there was the response that the Robinsons say they received from the Northern Command of the IRA when they asked them about Mark’s murder. The Northern Command replied with a very terse statement.

    It said that they were not willing to discuss the killings of Mark Robinson, Christopher Clarke and a third man called Fagan. The family had not asked about the other two men, who were reputedly killed by the IRA for being drug dealers. What is more important to note about the statement is that the IRA did not deny killing Mark Robinson.

    What we have here in Derry is an example of a police action by members of the IRA which has crossed the boundaries of anything which could be described as reasonable. This was not a punishment beating gone wrong. You do not stab someone eleven times and then smash the skull in with a scaffolding bar and expect them to live.

    There has also been a very public effort by the Provisional establishment in the town to rally around those responsible. Martin McGuiness recently stated that the people of Derry would be suprised if the IRA were responsible for Mark Robinson’s murder. An extraordinary statement given that most people here have accepted from the outset that they murdered him.

    Also, the lack of a public outcry by the Provisional Movement following the murder is also very notable. If Mark Robinson had have been killed by anyone else, the IRA’s response would probably have been very different.

    We can at least say that the evidence that an IRA unit was responsible for this is sufficient enough to demand that the issue be properly addressed by the Provisional Movement. To date they have not done that.

    If it is true that the person who admitted this murder publicly is in fact guilty, then that would have a significant effect on the McGinley issue.

    It’s also important to point out that the McGinley’s campaign is more to do with the IRA’s treatment of the family during the trial than it is about their appeal of the sentence.

    They have demanded that the IRA make a statement saying four things, ie, whether or not the IRA consider Jimmy McGinley’s killing to be a crime, that they have expelled Bart Fisher from their organisation, that they apologise to the family for treating them the way they did and that they lift a threat the family believe was made against them when the IRA warned them not to touch Bart Fisher on his release from prison.

    Regarding the allegation that Bart Fisher is a member of the IRA, it was that organisation that claimed him as one to the McGinley family. We all know he’s denied it, but the family seem to be willing to accept the IRA’s word for it.

    The McGinley issue is also very relevant given the McCartney case. The events surrounding McGinley’s killing were not political yet the Provisional Movement was all over the court case like a rash. Is this the sort of treatment the McCartneys would have got had those responsible for Robert McCartney’s murder had been caught?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    If the IRA publish the results of their inquiry and it states that as far as they are concerned Robinson was a hood and scumbag who died as a result of a run in with another hood and scumbag will the family accept this?

    The bandwagon effect is simply embarrassing.

  • Davros

    The bandwagon effect is simply embarrassing.

    it’s certainly embarrassing the RM Pat – Patnip all over the place, are you advertising for an assistant spin doctor ?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    your post is meaningless to me, care to explain/

    A lot of these camapigns are taking place inside the minds of the families involved, nobody wants to know. Unfortunate for the families but true enough.

  • Davros

    your post is meaningless to me, care to explain

    LOL! Ask at the next meeting, I’m sure someone will be able to explain Pat 😉

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros/Ivan Walton,

    next meeting? Are you simply morphing into a slogan writer?

  • George

    Davros,
    any chance you could lay off the character assassination of Pat McLarnon?

    Using jibes like spindoctor and Patnip (which appears to be character assassination word of the day) aren’t constructive in my view.

  • Davros

    Oh dear pat – now you have named me !!!! I’m terrified.

    George – you might address Pat’s drip, drip, drip of character assasination of anybody who puts the RM in a difficult position. Crikey, it isn’t as if they are even all Brits.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros/Ivan Walton,

    you were named all of a year ago. Character assassination is the forte of those who take every little newspaper cutting and run with it as if it is truth. This site since Xmas has been truly amazing for the anti republican bile dressed up as comment.

    To even query what is going on and to even question the authenticity of authors and posters alike earns the sort of comment for which you and others have become all to familiar.

  • Davros

    To even query what is going on

    LOL … How can repeating RM innuendo designed to smear the victims be described as ‘querying what is going on’ Pat ?

  • Davros

    you were named all of a year ago

    It’s not a year since I started posting here, is it pat ? Keeping notes ?

  • Jimmy Sands

    Of course nothing says “democracy” quite like “I know where you live”.

  • Davros

    It was a silly attempt at intimidation, that’s for sure Jimmy 😉

  • lámh dearg

    Aw, poor Pat’s embarrassed by all this negative comment about the Republican Movement, poor wee mite.

    Well sure he can always cast aspersions on those causing the problems and try a wee bit of intimidation on anyone who sticks their nose in.

    Well it’s worked for the last 30 years!

    But, address a point? say anything that hasn’t come out of the SF Little Book of Obfustication?

    God naw, that’s too hard

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ha Ha Ha, like to dish it out boys but throw a little bit back and you whelp like scalded pups.

    Stick to reading and spreading the lies that you feed off on a daily basis.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Yes Pat, you clearly have them on the run there.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Guess i’ll have to wait for any facts that appear regarding these cases. Far better for some posters to feed off the have truths and rumours that they metamorphisise into facts through sheer repetitiveness.

  • lámh dearg

    Quit whistling in the dark, lads.

    Yet again you resort to the old victim bit, it’s all an anti SF conspiracy/bandwagon etc (no doubt masterminded by the securocrats) and you circle the wagons bring out the old clichés to cheer each other up and hope things die down,

    A few facts, lest you forget,

    The RM murdered a man in Short Strand, they covered it up, intimidated the witnesses and by all accounts except the RM’s, continue to do so.

    Other families claiming to be victims of similar RM crimes are coming forward, following the example of the McCartney family. I do not claim to know any details of these crimes, criminals or victims, but the stories are credible given the RM history and the limited evidence in the public domain but rather than deal with them the RM muddies the waters, casts aspersions and retreats from the advances towards proper politics it had made in the past few years.

    If you are getting a hard time on Slugger, in Dublin, in London, in America, it is because of the actions of the RM, nobody else. It really is time for the RM to leave the violent aspects of its existence behind, stand down its army and then we will have nothing with which to fill these anti RM threads.

    Then we can debate how to improve our schools, health services and infrastructure, how to pay for our water and deal with our waste.

  • Davros

    More names and addresses needed pat LOL

  • Dualta

    Thanks Dearg for bringing this thread back into focus.

    I’m just sorry that noone had responded in any way to my post on this matter earlier.

    Nationalist families are calling for justice because they’ve suffered at the hands of combatants from all sides in this war.

    Just because some have claimed that they’ve suffered at the hands of Republicans should not diminish their right to justice, nor should it warrant some of the vitriolic character assasinations which have taken place against the victims, their families and their supporters.

    Neither Mark Robinson’s murder nor the IRA’s behaviour during the trial of Bart Fisher can be justified in political terms, never mind in terms of the national liberation struggle.

    There are cases to be answered here. That cannot be reasonably denied.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ivan Walton and others,

    by all means bring the thread back on focus, it is only when it is back on focus that the dearth of any evidence becomes apparent.

    Tell each other how believable you all are and indeed how right you are. It is slogan shouting plain and simple.

    Dualta,

    virtually every paragraph of your earlier post was a mixture of gossip and innuendo. Where are the facts?

  • Davros

    LOL Patnip. Have you any other names and addresses ?

  • Dualta

    Pat,

    Every paragraph of my earlier post is based on facts. Those facts are that ordinary people have come forward with these testimonies and they deserve to be heard and not dismissed as families of hoods and irps.

    They deserve to be heard and their allegations are so severe that they deserve to be answered.

  • lámh dearg

    Pat

    OK, we both accuse each other of reverting to slogans and innuendo so a few specific questions for you to answer,

    is it possible that, as now admitted in the McCartney case, in some of these other cases some members of the RM committed a crime, either with or without the authority of their organisation?

    do theses allegations, by individuals within the Republican areas, merit investigation?

    who should investigate and how?

    how should any investigations and conclusions involve ordinary people and be seen to be fair and thorough in a way to convince the families involved and the wider public?

  • J Kelly

    Dualta when did the McGinley family change the focus of their campaign from wanting the sentence increased and having Bart Fisher expelled from the IRA to complaining about intimidation at the trial. Is this the trial in which the family of the accused was visited by the PSNI and told to increase their security because of a threat from the victims family. Is this the same trial in which after one of the victims family said on radio that the accused would have to watch his back for the rest of his life. Is this the campaign when one of the accused family appears on TV to give his families account of things he is assulted on St Patricks night.

    The fact of this case one man was assulted by two men while defending himself one of his attackers is killed. During the trial his family are constantly harrassed and threatened. Afterwards due to the media profile being given to another case this family being pushed by a failed journalist try to jump on the band wagon. As I said at the begining the only people interested in this case are the family the majority of people in Derry know the craic with this one.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Dualta,

    the facts on the Mc Ginley case are out there. Read the facts and come to your own conclusion.

    As for Robinson there are no facts other than the fact he was badly beaten and stabbed the night he died. I’m unaware of any witnesses to the attack.

    Anyone can make allegations, it is the basis of the allegations I am questioning.

    Some people saw the Mc Cartney bandwagon passing and thought they’d get a lift.

    The fact that vigils and protests organised around these cases have been very poorly attended says a lot about what ordinary people believe.
    Even the SDLP who were initially supportive seemed to have jumped ship.

  • Davros

    The fact that vigils and protests organised around these cases have been very poorly attended says a lot about what ordinary people believe.

    Fascinating – now what does the fact that only an estimated 200 people attended the Dublin Rally to protest about attempts to criminalise the Republican Movement on March 19th tell us about what ordinary people believe ?

    ROFL

  • lamh_dearg

    Pat obviously prefers not to answer my questions.

    Ah well, surprise, surprise

  • PatMcLarnon

    lámh dearg,

    ‘Pat obviously prefers not to answer my questions.
    Ah well, surprise, surprise’

    I answer questions when I have the time and more than most. No need to try and provoke a response it will eventually come.

    ‘is it possible that, as now admitted in the McCartney case, in some of these other cases some members of the RM committed a crime, either with or without the authority of their organisation?’

    When you look at the endless list of possibilities, any thing is possible. Included in that list of possibilities is that Robinson could have fell victim to anyone of the violent assaults that seem a feature of life in Derry.

    ‘do theses allegations, by individuals within the Republican areas, merit investigation?’

    Given that they are quite a few years old I would think that there had already been investigations.

    ‘who should investigate and how?’

    I think in all cases where a killing has occurred the PSNI do take a lead. That is a fact.

    ‘how should any investigations and conclusions involve ordinary people and be seen to be fair and thorough in a way to convince the families involved and the wider public?’

    Given the answer to the previous question I think you should address that point to Hugh Orde.

    I have a problem with the fact that we have a number of cases where a number of families simply shout ‘IRA’. That is enough to get a few journalists interested and a story builds out of nothing.
    SF are then expected to hold investigations and answer for events that may have no link to republicans.

    As stated again and again, put forward a few facts then get back to me. Repeating gossip and rumours just isn’t good enough.

    If you have facts on Mc Ginley or Robinson or Burns i’d be glad to hear them

  • Dualta

    Pat and J Kelly

    You still haven’t recognised the basic fact that there are allegations being made in public which deserve to be answered.

    Both of you are just fudging the issues with bunkum and smokescreens.

    Did the IRA interfere with the McGinley family during the trial? The McGinleys have said they did. Are you not denying that and merely trying to justify it by repeating the Fisher family claims that it was they who were intimidated?

    Do you deny that Mark Robinson had already received a punishment beating from the IRA and that his family’s home had been visited by the IRA a short time before he was murdered and when they didn’t find him there they wrecked the place? Or maybe the Robinsons are lying about this?

    Justice is a universal principle and even the families of hoods and irps should be allowed access to it.

    And J Kelly, your assertion that the McGinleys are being pushed by a journalist smacks of Martin McGuiness’s claim the Anthony McIntyre is behind the McCartneys. Maybe this is a family with a mind of its own trying to defend itself against a powerful and violent organisation.

  • PatMcLarnon

    Dualta,

    I watched a Primetime programme on RTE which dealt with these cases. The family of Mc Ginley came off with a load of old bunkum that rewrote the available evidence on the case. To say that he and Breslin followed Fisher home because ‘that was what young lads do’ and they waited outside his home because ‘he asked them to’ is nonsense. So forgive me if I don’t treat a lot of what they say with scepticism.

    ‘You still haven’t recognised the basic fact that there are allegations being made in public which deserve to be answered.’

    The basis for these allegations are I believe erroneous and an attempt to re-write history, I have read nothing that convinces me otherwise. Did he live the life of a hood? Did he associate with other hoods? Do these hoods have a history of violence to others and each other? Relevant questions in the context of a lot of other allegations

    ‘Did the IRA interfere with the McGinley family during the trial? The McGinleys have said they did. Are you not denying that and merely trying to justify it by repeating the Fisher family claims that it was they who were intimidated?’

    It was members of the Mc Ginleys and their entourage who were involved in what was tantamount to a riot outside the court. I saw the tape on TV. It was Fishers’ brother who had head injuries in the newspaper last week. Makes you wonder who is being intimidated.

    ‘Do you deny that Mark Robinson had already received a punishment beating from the IRA and that his family’s home had been visited by the IRA a short time before he was murdered and when they didn’t find him there they wrecked the place? Or maybe the Robinsons are lying about this?’

    I have no idea who did what to Robinson or to their home. I get the feeling that some people prefer to be the victim (real or imagined) rather than face the consequences of what appears to be another wasted life of ‘drink’ and ‘getting into trouble.’

  • DerryTerry

    DeDe McGinley is dead as a result of an incident that he and his friend, a well known Derry criminal with more than 100 convictions to his name by the age of 27, provoked.

    Mr Fisher did not attack them in the street, he did not chase them home, he did not break down the door to their house and he did not hide under a stairwell waiting to attack them.

    That the facts, clearly outlined in the manslaughter conviction of Mr Fisher, are difficult for the family to accept is understandable.

    Mark Robinson was a friend of DeDe and his companion. He had been murdered in 2001.

    It has been stated that Mr Fisher had been questioned about this murder. Strangely no media attention has focused on other people who were also questioned about this murder, with at least three close associates of Mark being questioned.

    Of these one subsequently killed himself near the scene of Mark’s murder, a second is currently institutionalised with mental health problems and the third is known to be an even bigger criminal than DeDe’s accomplice the night he died.

    None of this helps shed any light on who killed Mark, but it does suggest that even the PSNI believed that there was more than one suspect. Amazingly, few people on this thread are prepared to accept that possibility.

  • Davros

    Pat : I answer questions when I have the time and more than most. No need to try and provoke a response it will eventually come.

    How about an answer to this one then Pat ?

    Pat : The fact that vigils and protests organised around these cases have been very poorly attended says a lot about what ordinary people believe.

    Fascinating – now what does the fact that only an estimated 200 people attended the Dublin Rally to protest about attempts to criminalise the Republican Movement on March 19th tell us about what ordinary people believe ?

  • J Kelly

    Dualta I refer you to DT post to answer your substantive question on the second. I am sure you will know if you have any knowledge of this campaign that the “Press Manager” his title not mine is a former journalist with a number of media outlets in Derry. One of his most infamous exploits was when he orchestrated children at one of Derry’s interfaces to riot. Subsequently the PSNI complained to his employers and he was sacked.

    This family do have a mind of their own put people with another agenda are using them for their own ends.

  • Dualta

    ‘Did the IRA interfere with the McGinley family during the trial? The McGinleys have said they did. Are you not denying that and merely trying to justify it by repeating the Fisher family claims that it was they who were intimidated?’

    It was members of the Mc Ginleys and their entourage who were involved in what was tantamount to a riot outside the court. I saw the tape on TV. It was Fishers’ brother who had head injuries in the newspaper last week. Makes you wonder who is being intimidated.

    Pat,

    I asked you if you were denying that the meetings between the IRA and the McGinleys took place and you have responded by claiming that it was the Fishers who were being intimidated. Am I to take it that you accept that the McGinley’s allegations may be true? If so, then let us debate whether or not such actions by the IRA would be justified.

    DerryTerry,

    The McGinleys will pursue the appeals process like any other family in their position have a right to do and who probably would do. The rights and the wrongs of the case are not the main focus here. The main focus is the alleged role of the IRA in all of this. If they were involved then they should be brought to book in the public domain. This was a non-political case and they would have had no call to be involved in it in any way.

    I’ve been posting the above repeatedly, but those posting against the McGinleys have said nothing to address the allegations of IRA interference with that family. If the allegations are true then why did the IRA do it? If they did it then it is a shameful thing they’ve done. It’s really as simple as that.

  • PatMcLarnon

    ‘Fascinating – now what does the fact that only an estimated 200 people attended the Dublin Rally to protest about attempts to criminalise the Republican Movement on March 19th tell us about what ordinary people believe ? ‘

    Ivan Walton, as i’ve stated to you before I try to answer senssible questions. Are you unaware that republicans put themselves before the electorate and get hundreds of thousands of votes? For goodness sake don’t you have a clue what is going on around you.

    Dualta,

    I cannot deny if the meetings have taken place. i’m pointing out that the Mc Ginleys have tried to gloss over a lot of the facts in this case, contradicting a lot of established facts.

  • DerryTerry

    Dualta,

    “The rights and the wrongs of the case are not the main focus here.” Can I take it from this that you are prepared to accept that the facts of DeDE’s death are those as outlined in court and not those as claimed by his family,ie, he was a major author of his own tragic death?

    As to the alleged role of the IRA i am at a loss.

    Did they interfer with the trial? No, the jury complained about being intimidated by DeDe’s friends and family.

    Did they try to attack anyone inside or outside the court? No, that was the friends and family of DeDe.

    Did they threaten anyone after the verdict? No, that was done by DeDe’s mother on Radio Foyle when she stated that Mr Fisher, his children, even his grandchildren, would have to look over their shoulders for the rest of their lives, and was then re-inforced when the Fisher family were told to increase their personal security by the PSNI.

    As to what the IRA are actually alleged to have done, it is my understanding that the McGinley family claim they were told to leave Mr Fisher alone upon his release.

    Now, unless the McGinleys were intent on not leaving him alone, what could possibly be contentious with this?

  • Davros

    Ivan Walton, as i’ve stated to you before I try to answer senssible questions. Are you unaware that republicans put themselves before the electorate and get hundreds of thousands of votes? For goodness sake don’t you have a clue what is going on around you.

    But the McCartneys have been TOLD not to put themselves before the electorate Pat- Martyin used your tactics successfully …. and compare 200 odd out of hundreds of thousands of voters with the hundreds turning out from a small area of Belfast, or the 50,000- 150,000 who turned out against the Anglo Irish Agreement ….

    Now, please have the courtesy of using my screenname. After all MM isn’t governed by the Civil service code of conduct. The RM approves of people pointing out to employers that their employees are mishaving online during working hours. Look what happened to Newton Emerson.

  • Dualta

    DerryTerry,

    I saw the footage of people attacking police jeeps and going berserk at the courthouse. I saw the riot police and all of that and the McGinleys did themselves no favours.
    I wasn’t aware of the other stuff you said like the threat made by McGinley’s mother or the intimidation of the jury and those things certainly give us a insight into some of the people we’re dealing with here.
    Although, despite all this, if the IRA decided to police this family during the trial then I still think it that would be a disgrace.
    If this family needed to be policed then that’s a job for the PSNI, not the IRA.

  • PatMcLarnon

    Ivan,

    ‘Now, please have the courtesy of using my screenname. After all MM isn’t governed by the Civil service code of conduct. The RM approves of people pointing out to employers that their employees are mishaving online during working hours. Look what happened to Newton Emerson.’

    Go back to the moderator who gave you erroneous information and tell him to get his facts straight and try and educate him on the use of software, at all levels. How to e-mail would be a good start.
    By all means if you feel you have any information that could be used against me pass it on to the relevant people.

  • Davros

    What moderator is this Pat ? A quick google showed you to be a civil servant. The civil service would take a dim view of your activities, setting aside that some of your more scandalous claims have been made during working hours.