IRA blocking McCartney investigation?

Catherine McCartney believes that attempts to smear her brothers character failed, and that’s why their case got strong media play. She also believes that the IRA’s refusal to endorse people going to the police is a case of deliberately blunting the investigation, because of the potential for embarassment for the organisation.

  • paul

    rubbish,they only got strong media because they were serving a political agenda and this agenda wasnt in the best interest of any northern catholic…i only have pity for this woman,she has lost a brother,but my pity is losing dignity,im coming to the conclusion that grief no longer motivates these women,its stardom…..they have become addicts to the media and grief for their brother and justice has vanished all too very quickly…….very sad really when you take closer notice of them,,

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    What political agenda is this ?

    What does Catholicism or any other religion have to do with it ?

  • Rethinking Unionism

    Its a pretty sick sort of society where the campaign to highlight the brutal murder of someone in a bar and his family’s pleas for justice can be so quickly characterised as “unhelpful for northern catholics”. The temerity of these women in demanding due process and daring to bring their grievance to world attention.

  • Paul Panther

    The sister’s have unfortunately lost the support of the republican community, something that is crucial if they are ever to see their brother’s killers deservedly brought to justice.
    They have allowed themselves to be used for political ends and are now paying the price.
    Check out the graffiti on Kennedy Way – ‘McCartney’s Bore Me’. That is the feeling within the republican community.
    People are sick to the back teeth with this and thousands of other family’s who have lost loved one’s are now rightly saying why have our cases not got the same press?
    And the question needs to be asked again as it hasn’t been answered – what was Bert McCartney doing in the company of Brendan Devine – a north Belfast hood who has pleaded guilty to an armed robbery and is due to be sentenced, and who is facing further charges of malicious wounding and GBH relating to an incident in which a pub doorman was stabbed?
    Devine’s co-accused by the way is Hugh ‘Applegoat’ McCormick – the brother of the man named in the Sunday World as the man who fatally stabbed McCartney.

  • Davros

    Check out the graffiti on Kennedy Way – ‘McCartney’s Bore Me’. That is the feeling within the republican community.

    I wonder which party drone was dispatched from Connolly House to paint this ? Let’s put this in perspective for outsiders – the same lot were painting “not a bullet, not an ounce” ….

  • Davros

    And the question needs to be asked again as it hasn’t been answered

    Why ? Smearing a dead man again. Even if it had been the other way round it would still have been a disgusting murder.

    But let’s run with this – you are playing guilt by association, something that the RM has always claimed was grossly unjust when applied to their men and women. Where does it leave The senior SF members pictured with various killers, hoods and thugs ? Remember there have been a couple of denials from very senior SF men which photographs easily disproved. Are you saying that they should be in jail because they were in the company, among others, of one of the Colombia 3 and that killer from Derry ?

  • Paul Panther

    What I’m saying is that listening to the media over the last couple of weeks you would think the McCartney’s were the only people to have suffered as a result of our problems.
    What next – St Robert McCartney.
    His killing was callous and I hope to Jesus his murderers end up in the dock, and then jail where they belong.
    By associating him with Devine I’m trying to dispel the notion McCartney was angelic, he wasn’t, but then again neither he or Devine deserved to be stabbed.
    Davros, go into west Belfast, Ardoyne, the New Lodge, even the Strand and Markets and the vast majority of people will tell you they are tired of the McCartney case.
    Don’t underestimate the indifference that now exists to the man’s murder. People recognise the people who killed him are scum, but they also realise his family have been manipulated and are being used for politicial purposes.
    To sustain a campaign the sisters need the support of the public and crucially the republican community – but it is quickly ebbing away.

  • Davros

    What next – St Robert McCartney.

    Odd you don’t object when the same treatment is accorded to the blessed Pat Finucane….

    Nah Paul, I get the impression that the RM realised that a frontal assault on the McCartney sisters had backfired and this is plan B. Slur, smear and undermine.

  • Davros

    What I’m saying is that listening to the media over the last couple of weeks you would think the McCartney’s were the only people to have suffered as a result of our problems.

    aye, right… and you raised cain over the relative amount of media attention given to the Murder of Joanne Mathers compared to another murder victim such as Rosemary Nelson.

  • Paul Panther

    Davros, I could say the same about Lisa Dorrian.
    While the McCartney’s are the darlings of the world’s media that girl’s body hasn’t even been found.
    I don’t see the SDLP and Bush offering to help the Dorrian’s.

  • Davros

    Davros, I could say the same about Lisa Dorrian.

    Good point PP, but a totally seperate issue and one that shouldn’t be used as a smokescreen by the RM.

    I don’t see the SDLP and Bush offering to help the Dorrian’s.

    Bit unfair to blame the stoops here – they don’t have any leverage worth talking about in the unionist community. Certainly the UUP and DUP should be ashamed of their low-profile. As for the Shrub, as the Loyalists weren’t planning a fund-raiser or expecting to press the presidential flesh I’m not sure there’s a lot he could have done.

  • Rethinking Unionism

    It may well be that in the RM such a murder is only a venial sin, and that people are bored with the case(poor things). The McCartneys may well not get justice but the case has highlighted the kind of Ireland Sinn Fein and their alter ego want and restoring any semblance of trust will require a common understanding of basic things like the definition of “crime”, and “law and order”…. Simple things like whether you believe in due process and the rule of law. Bascially any sense that Sinn Fein were in a process and undergoing the same sort of metamorphosis as Fianna Fail in the twenties has evapourated.

  • Henry94

    The McCartney’s have made stategic mistakes and have alienated thousands of republicans by allowing themselves to be used in the anti-republican agenda.

    But they are still entitled to justice. They are talking about a civil case now and that may well be the way to go.

    The current strategy of trying to get into the papers every day will only work for so long and doesn’t help them on the ground where it counts.

    If I could offer them one suggestion it would be to finance the civil action through some kind of blind trust where donations could be sent by the public but in which the sisters themselves would not be told the names of the doners.

  • Davros

    The McCartney’s have made stategic mistakes and have alienated thousands of republicans by allowing themselves to be used in the anti-republican agenda.

    Not as many as the RM who have alienated hundreds of thousands around the world.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    “Davros, go into west Belfast, Ardoyne, the New Lodge, even the Strand and Markets and the vast majority of people will tell you they are tired of the McCartney case.”

    This means what precisely ? How long is it now that republicans have been focussing on the Finucane murder ? Wouldn’t it be outrageous if people said they were sick of hearing about Finucane ?

  • vespasian

    …………or Bloody Sunday that waste of money which will reach no firm conclusion. They should have give the families £5 million each ‘without prejudice’ and used the balance to fund the health service, probably about 2 or 3 hospitals.

  • Davros

    Because of that post Roger some poor drone’s Easter will be interrupted and he’ll have to head out and paint a rebuttal – “We’re not tired of hearing about Finucane ” 😉

  • alex s

    The way the republician movement and their apologists have treated the McCartney case is in stark contrast to the demands for justice in the case of Pat Finucane, I hope the family get proper justice, a murder conviction for his killer and those that directed it, and convictions for those involved in the cover-up.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Alex, indeed. Can you imagine the reaction from the republicans if the British said, “we asked the people who organized Finucane’s death to give themselves up” and they didn’t. Or “well we’ve caught the murderer and convicted him, but nothing we’ve done seems to be enough for some people” ? Or what if the British came along and said “the Finucane death is being used by nasty people playing political games” ?

    Maybe Paul could give us some insight into the apparent doublethink.

  • Henry94

    It is no surprise at all to see posters who have condemed whataboutry in the past indulging themselves in it today as if they had been off it for lent.

    The cases would be more comprable if a Sinn Fein leader had fingered Robert McCartney for assasination the way The British Minister Hogg fingered Pat Finucane.

    Of if the IRA enquiry was designed to prevent it finding the truth when they eventually set it up in 2021

    Or if the investigation into the murder drew a comment like this

    “It seems to me that the proposed new Act would make a meaningful inquiry impossible.” Judge Cory noted that “the Minister, the actions of whose ministry was to be reviewed by the public inquiry would have the authority to thwart the efforts of the inquiry at every step” and he concluded that he “cannot contemplate any self respecting Canadian judge accepting an appointment to an inquiry constituted under the new proposed act”.

  • mickhall

    His killing (McCartney mh)was callous and I hope to Jesus his murderers end up in the dock, and then jail where they belong.

    Posted by: Paul Panther

    Paul,
    You claim you wish to see in jail the low life scum who murdered Mr McCartney and assisted in the cover up of his death. Yet in every one of your posts to this thread you have attempted to achieve the opposite by smearing and attacking both the dead man and his family. Pray tell me how will this help the family gain justice?

    Henry

    You are a decent man and I have both admired and enjoyed your post to Slugger, but on this matter you are not much better with your continuous carping against the Sisters. These women have neither brought, not helped bring Irish Republicanism into disrepute, but sure as hell the useless cowards who murdered the man and refuse to take responsibility for their deed have. Some of these people have not even bothered to go to ground, strutting around their home areas in the full knowledge that the media will use there presence against Republicanism, what loyality they are desplaying towards Irish Republicanism. Just think about these peoples behaviour of late, before you so readily condemn the dead mans family.… Hell these usless cowards do not give a fig about the movement they hide behind, all they wish to do is tell the world what big men they are. Instead of whineing on about the McCartney women being used, why not aim your spears in the direction of these useless specimens. Whose interest do these killers serve because it sure as hell is not the people of the Short Strand nor Irish Republicans? For once I agree completely with Gerry Adams when he said in Derry yesterday, (27/3/05)

    “If those who fear the growth of Irish republicanism are
    given an opportunity to undermine it they will take that
    chance. What annoys me the most is that a small group of
    individuals are not prepared to face up to their
    responsibilities. Instead these cowardly individuals, (the killers of McCartney) will
    allow an avalanche of propaganda aimed at criminalising
    republicanism. So let me be clear – I am not letting this
    issue go. Whatever way people feel about how the McCartneys
    are running their campaign, this family have the right to
    truth and justice.”

    If Republicans give the McCartney family there full and absolute support I have no doubt they in turn will repay the Republican movement in kind.

  • Henry94

    mickhall

    It’s not attacking the family to note that they have lost support because of their approach. You know they have and you should know that there is nothing artifical or orchestrated about it.

    On this thread I have urged them to take the civil case as a better way forward and suggested how they might finance it to avoid any issue about the money. I hope that is a constructive approach.

    I want them to get justice but the destruction of Sinn Fein is the political project of some of those who support them. That I will oppose and I make no apoogy for it.

    I agee 100% with the quote you posted from Gerry Adams.

  • Mick Fealty

    Henry, what approach would you have recommended?

  • Henry94

    Mick

    I was hoping to avoid using the benefit of hindsight to say what they should have done and concentrate on what they should do now.

    If I had been in their position and found so many doors opening in government and media circles I too might have thought it was the best way to go.

    But then if I was in their position I would have probably have accepted the IRA’s offer to shoot the killers and Sinn Fein would now be in far more trouble with the two governments.

    But it looks now as if it wasn’t. The community they most need support from perceive the family as being willing to destroy everything we are working for in order to highlight their own cause.

    Talking in the US about IRA myths and appearing (wrongly) to be responsible for the cold-shouldering of Gerry Adams has gone down very badly.

    But rather than avoid giving you an answer I think, in hindsight, they should have kept the campaign local and internal to the community. The initial support they got indicates that we do see a problem with the role of the IRA in nationalist areas but we also see it as our problem for us to solve.

    To explain, I have posted here on a few occasions my view that the IRA should step down but I actually don’t like posting it. I feel a bit of a turncoat every time I say it because this is not an internal republican forum. I wish people had a better understanding of the ambiguity many of us feel.

    Another example is decommissioning. I was delighted when I thought we had a deal before Christmas which included it and I have long advocated unilateral decommissioning if necessary. But I was also a bit delighted when the IRA told Paisley where to go for his photographs.

  • New Yorker

    Henry,

    “The initial support they got indicates that we do see a problem with the role of the IRA in nationalist areas but we also see it as our problem for us to solve.” You have not been able to solve the problem in an acceptable way. The McCartney sisters brought international attention to “your problem”. Now in the US, many people have not thought about Ireland for a good while, and listen to the murder of the McCartney sisters’ brother’s murder and the massive bank robbery and want to know exactly what is going on in Ireland currently. And, they don’t like what they see. They see a republican mafia out of control. I was at Easter dinner with about 20 people, at least 10 of them were Irish Americans. They asked me why McCartney was murdered. I told them, from what I read, the victim was a Catholic who likely voted SF who incurred the displeasure of an IRA
    ‘capo'(captain in the mafia). They asked why Senator Kennedy cancelled a meeting with Adams. I said, I think it was because of the big bank robbery and the McCartney murder and cover-up. One fellow said the primary question is not why did they rob the bank, but why is the IRA still around, hasen’t there been a ceasefire for over ten years and things have been peacefully worked out peacefully? Not quite, I replied. They want to do some research on the issues discussed; I told them what websites they should start with. And,I’m sure there were similar conversations around many thousands of Easter dinner tables in the US, Canada, Australia, etc. The McCartney sisters have shone an international spotlight on “your problem” and most do not like what they see.

  • Alan

    “I wish people had a better understanding of the ambiguity many of us feel.”

    And some of us passed that way many, many years ago, although we started off originally with different destinations in mind. It is not unique and it is not unsurmountable, indeed, in many ways it is a self-indulgent nostalgia that just gets in the way.

    As for the civil case, that is no answer. Why should people have to depend on the generosity of strangers to finance their road to justice? Will it become a case of justice for the lawyers and the independently wealthy? That’s like telling ordinary people that their call for justice has no value. I think Adams understands this better than some posters to this thread – he can’t let himself become *bored*.

    The test in this case is to see those witnesses to the murder provide evidence that will stand up in court. Those responsible for the murder are not going to give themselves up. They are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into court, and it is the witnesses, even if they share your ambiguities, who will have to do some of the dragging.

  • ulsterman

    I think you would have to plain stupid not to see the trap the McCartneys have fallen into.

    Unacceptable comment removed A.U.

    Unionists have been very quiet over the whole affair. The McCartneys talk of smears on their brothers name. Yet he was the one in the company of thugs and he was the one who stole credit cards from his job in the post office and was sacked and did time for it.

    Justice in Ulster is none existant. Look at the murdering filth that were let out of the jails due to the GFA.

    A man was stabbed to death in Dunmurry last night. There will be no great media storm for him.
    I smell a rat.

    There is an agenda set by the Irish and British government to destroy SF. The last local elections in the Republic was the wake up call for FF.

    May I would be almost certain will see a hugh defeat for SF. Unionist unity candidate in Fermanagh elected. Dr Deeny in West Tyrone elected. The three SDLP MPS will all survive as the Unionists will not contest their seats. The percentage difference will not matter as the overall Unionist vote will be able to be gauged from the local elections held on the same day.

    SF have finally been seen for the losers they are. Their demise will be eagerly awaited.

    God Save The Queen.

  • Henry94

    NwYorker

    Your regular reports about people at dinner parties and elsewhere turning to you for guidence on Irish affairs always strike me as fictional. I’m not saying it’s not true but for me at least it lacks the ring of truth.

    If I have an opinion to offer about an American issue such as the Schivo case or Hillary’s chances in 2008 I’d expect it to be judged on its own merits. I don’t thik I’d need to claim that I’d mentioned it at the chipper and all the people there agreed with me.

    When you take out the extras and the entrees there is nothing in your post that’s very useful. It’s portrayal of an IRA out of control is wrong. Since the McCartney murder the IRA or it’s members have done nothing at all.

    So there is control even it like in all organisations it breaks down from time to time. I need hardly remind you of examples from the US

    If there wasn’t control we would have a problem with no prospect of a solution.

    Negotiations brought us to the brink of a solution last year and when the elections are out of the way I think we will have negotiations once again. In my view there is no outstanding issue that can’t be resolved.

  • Henry94

    Alan

    As for the civil case, that is no answer. Why should people have to depend on the generosity of strangers to finance their road to justice?

    I’m not a lawyer but I thought that in a civil case there is a lower standard of proof required (balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt).

    A civil case would not preclude subsequent criminal charges would it?

  • Visioner

    “It’s portrayal of an IRA out of control is wrong. Since the McCartney murder the IRA or it’s members have done nothing at all.”

    Henry,

    So the IRA did do it then? Did they finally look up the meaning of ‘ceasefire’? Makes a change from them doing things. What do they know about these incedinary devices planted over the weekend?

    Tell me, with Adams et all calling for justice for the McCartney’s when will he and SF/IRA call for justice for the McConville family or all the other familys affected by the IRA’s brutal killing machine?

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Henry94, I guess it does look like whataboutery to mention Finucane. But if I can offer an explanation, there is a difference between comparing the approach taken by the same organization two two different cases, compared with using a crime committed by one person to avoid discussion of a crime committed by another.

    I don’t think it’s whataboutery for example to compare the justice the British applied with the abuse court martials regarding soldiers in Iraq with the treatment of the soldiers who shot dead a civilian in the New Lodge. Likewise I don’t think it’s whataboutery to compare the attitude of some republicans (not you) to events that in one sense allow them to justify themselves with events that undermine them.

  • alex s

    The cases would be more comprable if a Sinn Fein leader had fingered Robert McCartney for assasination the way The British Minister Hogg fingered Pat Finucane. Posted by Henry94

    How exactly did Mr Hogg finger Pat Finucane?

  • George

    Alex
    A couple of weeks before Finucane was murdered, Douglas Hogg told MPs in the Commons that some of Northern Ireland solicitors were “unduly sympathetic to the cause of the IRA”.

    I suppose it would be a bit similar to Billy Bingham fingering the Republic of Ireland football team as an enemy of Northern Ireland by his antics in November 1993 which led to loyalists seeing their fans as worthy of massacre at Loughinisland a few months later.

    You don’t want to be labelled as an enemy of Northern Ireland.

  • Henry94

    Rt Hon Douglas Hogg QC, MP a home office minister in 1989, told MPs in the Commons that some of Northern Ireland solicitors were “unduly sympathetic to the cause of the IRA”

    Speaking immediately after the statement, the SDLP’s Seamus Mallon called on Mr Hogg to withdraw the remarks.

    “I have no doubt that there are lawyers walking the streets or driving on the roads of the north of Ireland who have become targets for assassins’ bullets as a result of the statement that has been made tonight,” he said. “Following the minister’s statement, people’s lives are in danger.”

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    As the Mc Carneys try and maintain media interest in the case new angles to the case will have to be produced.
    Perhaps if Catherine Mc Cartney had given examples of the attempt to blacken her brother’s name and where and when this happened then her account would look a lot less than a stunt.

  • alex s

    Pat, why will new angles have to be introduced, the family of Pat Finucane (with the support of the republician movement) have managed to keep their cause to the forefront for years now,

  • IJP

    Roger

    I don’t think it is whataboutery actually.

    People are simply saying that it would be ludicrous if the UK Government simply said “We’ve asked people who colluded re Finucane to give themselves up and they didn’t, and people are using this to advance an anti-British agenda so the issue is closed.” It would be ludicrous if the UK Government simply said “We asked the soldiers what happened on 30/1/72 and they assured us they didn’t do it, and besides people are bored of it now.”

    Likewise it is ludicrous for people to say such things re Northern Bank or McCartney.

    You can’t claim to believe in ‘equality’ and ‘justice’ if you don’t even believe in ‘equality of justice’.

  • Henry94

    IJP

    People are simply saying that it would be ludicrous if the UK Government simply said “We’ve asked people who colluded re Finucane to give themselves up and they didn’t, and people are using this to advance an anti-British agenda so the issue is closed.”

    There is an implication there that Sinn Fein are saying that the McCartney issue is closed and that is the opposite of the truth.

    Adams brands McCartney killers ‘cowards’

    The killers of Belfast father-of-two Robert McCartney were today branded cowards by Gerry Adams for failing to face up to what they had done.

    In a stinging rebuke for those who carried out the January 30 murder outside a Belfast city centre bar, Mr Adams warned he would not let the issue go “until those who have sullied the republican cause are made to account for their actions”.

    The Sinn Féin president told republicans at a 1916 Easter Rising commemoration in Derry how Sinn Féin handled the McCartney family’s demands for justice was crucial.

    Following eight weeks of constant criticism of the IRA and Sinn Féin’s handling of the case, Mr Adams acknowledged many republicans and nationalists felt the murder was “being cynically exploited to undermine republicanism”.

    But he added: “What annoys me the most is not the criticism from the two governments, our political opponents, or those sections of the media who are clearly delighted to have a go at us. We are used to that and we can take it. What else do we expect? If those who fear the growth of Irish republicanism are given an opportunity to undermine it they will take that chance.

    “What annoys me the most is that a small group of individuals are not prepared to face up to their responsibilities. Instead these cowardly individuals will allow an avalanche of propaganda aimed at criminalising republicanism. So let me be clear – I am not letting this issue go.”

  • New Yorker

    Henry,

    “If there wasn’t control we would have a problem with no prospect of a solution.
    Negotiations brought us to the brink of a solution last year and when the elections are out of the way I think we will have negotiations once again. In my view there is no outstanding issue that can’t be resolved.” You think the outstanding issue of the IRA going totally out of business is resovable? How do you propose that will be done? And, when will it be done? It’s 7 years since the GFA. Perhaps the major reason the talks broke down last Fall was because of this outstanding issue. Over here we see the parallel with the mafia, a nationalist movement that turned to massive criminality. I hope you are right that the IRA are under control and they will go totally out of business at SF’s request. But I am quite skeptical.

    As to Irish Americans’interest in what goes on in Ireland, it is because that’s where our ancestors came from. Unless your ancestors came from the US, it is not comprable to you discussing the Schiavo case or Hilary Clinton’s election prospects. If you do not think what Irish Americans think about Ireland is “useful” then you ignore the impact the US has had on Ireland politically, economically and culturally. Why do you think your politicians make frequent visits here?

  • Visioner

    ” I hope you are right that the IRA are under control and they will go totally out of business at SF’s request. But I am quite skeptical.”

    I saw Martin McGuinness on Hard Talk (BBC NEWS 24) last night with Noel Thompson.

    And in the last question put to him, he was asked something along the lines of ‘When will the IRA go out of business?’

    To sum up his answer in plain english he more or less said ‘When the British get out of Ireland.’ With particular reference to troops. The reason troops are in Northern Ireland is to protect our country and the people within it. The reason they are mainly based in certain areas around Northern Ireland is because there is still a substantial security threat to the region and the people within it.

    If McGuinness got his wish and all the ‘British Troops’ left Northern Ireland who would protect the people within it?

    McGuinness and Sinn Fein/IRA want rid of anything with relevance to Britain or the British identity. This is completely undermining the principles of democracy and the will of the people of N.I.

    He said more or less that the IRA will never go away.

  • Whatabout

    To return to commenting on the original article –

    My understanding of what occurred in Magennis’ bar is that Robert McCartney was a member of a group drinking in the bar. He, or a member of that group, in some way ‘insulted’ members of another group in the bar. All appear to have been known to each other. In the time that followed a fight developed as a result of which Mr McCartney died and another (others?) were injured. On the realisation that a death had occurred the bar was ‘visited’, a security video tape disappeared and the premises were ‘forensically cleaned’. It is suspected that those involved in the killing and ‘cleaning’ of the scene were / are or may be / have been members of the IRA.

    This is probably not the whole story but is it generally correct? If so then the only question is “Should a killing as a result of an apparent drunken brawl be treated as a political act?” (i.e. a killing to forward a political cause.)

    People involved in drunken brawls where people accidentally get killed do not generally forensically clean the scene and remove security videos. Those involved had a degree of ‘clout’ and the training / experience to do so. If this is what happens as a result of an apparently accidental death within the nationalist community should anyone in general Northern Ireland, including in the nationalist community, trust any such organisation or their allies?

    Gerry Adams is correct – those involved should make a full and frank confession, and to the proper authority. Courts have in the past been found properly lenient where killings have occurred accidentally. To do otherwise will become a millstone around republican necks and one they can ill afford. How often will the case be brought up in electioneering?

  • Rebecca Black

    Henry said:

    “But then if I was in their position I would have probably have accepted the IRA’s offer to shoot the killers”

    what??? is that your idea of justice?

  • Davros

    Rebecca : Like Henry I too would probably have accepted the IRA offer. I might have carried regrets later, but I would probably have accepted. “Justice” is a strange concept. Rough justice even more so.
    I feel much the same about the death of the 3 IRA volunteers on Gibraltar. Do you think they had justice ?

  • Rebecca Black

    Davros

    you would order people to shoot those who had killed a loved one of yours? So you’d put another family through the misery you were going through just to try and make urself feel better? I don’t think you’d need me to tell you that really wouldn’t work. Thank God I have never had a relative shot or murdered in any other way but I’d like to think I’d be satisfied with the courts method of dealing with them.

    Concerning the IRA volunteers in Gilbraltar, I wouldn’t really like to comment on that due to the fact I know nothing about it so anything I do say on it will be able to be pulled apart. Furthemore I didn’t like through the 70s so I don’t have experience of NI violence at its worst and the unique situation that creates.

    I would venture to say however that it would have been better if they were brought back to NI and put in front of the courts.

  • Davros

    Rebecca – you are young and idealistic which is good. I’ll put it to you this way : if you knew that rough justice was the ONLY justice you were likely to get would you take it ? I’d love to be able to say I wouldn’t, but I probably couldn’t be that good a person and IF I took it I would likely feel guilty for the rest of my life.

  • Rebecca Black

    Davros

    yeah. yeah, use the young card.

    I said I don’t know how I would react if a loved one of mine was killed because thank goodness it has never happened to me but I would like to aspire to people like Gordon Wilson rather than paramilitaries. You know you would be likely to feel guilty the rest of your life and the knowledge that another family was going through what you are going through because of you.

    We can’t say how we would react in such situations but people can aspire to being better than they had hoped to be.

  • George

    Davros,
    there are some who think the mass bombing and machine-gunning of tens of thousands of defenceless refugees in Dresden in 1945 was justified so I doubt something like 20 odd bullets for Sean Savage at point blank range – six in the face – would unduly concern them.

    To them justice is not about being fair, it more about assigning punishment and the irony of then saying they find extra-judicial death abhorrent is simply lost on them.

    You have to abhor death to truly abhor extra-judicial death.

  • Rebecca Black

    Lisa Dorrian was mentioned, we don’t know what has happened to her and we certainly don’t know if there was any paramilitary involvement.

    Unionist politicans have been helping the Dorrian family such as Councillor Diana Peacock and Lady Sylvia Hermon but the Dorrian family has expressed a wish to not speak to the media and unionists are respecting that.

  • Davros

    Sorry Rebecca, it wasn’t meant to be patronising.
    You yourself raised your relative youth and I wasn’t being sarcastic when I wrote that it was good.

    You avoided my question and retreated into ideal world :

    if you knew that rough justice was the ONLY justice you were likely to get would you take it ?

    For others prepared to admit their age – I’m in my 50th year. Do you think there would be a generational gap in this ? Would people of my age and older be more likely to say yes to such an offer ?

  • Davros

    Thanks for slipping in a soupcon of brit-bashing George 😉

  • Rebecca Black

    Davros

    again, I don’t know how I would react to a loved one of mine being murdered but I would like to think I wouldn’t resort to rough justice, if anything it would make things worse I reckon.

    Not sure about a generational gap, most likely I would say people of your generation would be inclined to act differently to people of my generation, it would certainly be a factor. Although there are other factors just as relevent such as gender, economic situation, political socialisation etc. I don’t think individual gut reactions tend to conform to groups.

  • Rebecca Black

    by the way, I am 22, I was born in 1982 so I was born after the 70s, after the hunger strikes and too young to remember the major events of the 80s.

  • Henry94

    Rebecca

    I’m making no case that it would be the right thing to do. Clearly it would not. But in the circumstances I might have said yes. I very much admire the McCartney family for not doing so.

  • Paul Panther

    Rebecca,

    Lisa Dorrian was murdered by LVF members.
    The reasons she was killed are well-known, but out of respect for the family I won’t mention them.

  • Rebecca Black

    Paul

    I hadn’t heard that and as for reasons she was killed, I refuse to believe the LVF would have reason to murder a 23 year old girl.

    Furthermore, I have been out around that area before and when I heard of the death I assumed it was down to drunken antics gone disasterously wrong.

  • Davros

    I agree Henry. Out of interest – are you closer to my age or Rebecca’s age or would you rather not say ?

  • Paul Panther

    Rebecca,

    Your refuse to believe the LVF would have reason to murder a 23-year-old Catholic girl who allegedly owed them money?
    Catch a grip.

  • George

    “Thanks for slipping in a soupcon of brit-bashing George ;)”

    It actually wasn’t a bit of Brit bashing Davros, it was more of an off-the-ball incident on another player who has no problem with blowing thousands of innocent, defenceless and terrified women and children into little pieces.

    Telling the truth about Dresden (Britain and the US take a bow) is not anti-British, it is telling the truth.

  • Davros

    George – If you wanted an example wouldn’t Hiroshima or Nagasaki have been bigger and “better” for your purposes ? Nah – they weren’t anti-Brit .

  • vespasian

    PP

    Are you quoting facts or repeating unfounded gossip?

    If it really is facts can you back them up?

    If you are correct then we need to start doing something positive for her family.

  • George

    Davros,
    the player at whom the off the ball incident was aimed, made no reference to Nagasaki or Hiroshima but did about Dresden.

    As I said, off the point and off the ball but, one thing is for sure, highlighting the butchery that took place in Dresden is not anti-British it is telling the truth.

    Paranoia – self destroyer Davros. I wonder what else you have tarred with that large “anti-British” brush of yours?

  • Davros

    I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here George. But whatever it is won’t alter your demonstration of the tendency you have to indulge in knee-jerk Brit-bashing.

  • Paul Panther

    Vespasian,

    I’m not going to post on a website the exact circumstances surrounding Lisa’s murder, but the relations of a leading LVF man who was shot dead two years ago were questioned about her disappearance.
    She was killed by LVF members because she allegedly owed them money.
    She was also subjected to a horrific ordeal before being eventually murdered and her body dumped.
    It’s shameful that no unionist representatives in the area have pointed the finger of blame at the LVF.

  • George

    Davros,
    actually I would argue that you take things as Brit-bashing even when they are not which is why I said paranoia – self destroyer.

    I repeat: Telling the truth about what happened in Dresden is not anti-British, it is telling the truth. Why are you so dogged about trying to tar me with that rather large “you are anti-British” brush of yours Davros?

    I assume you agree that what happened in Dresden 1945 was butchery of the innocents.

  • Henry94

    davros

    I agree Henry. Out of interest – are you closer to my age or Rebecca’s age or would you rather not say ?

    I’d rather not say because I’m 45.

  • LISA

    REBECCA WHAT FACTS HAVE YOU GOT TO BACK THIS UP ABOUT LISA DORRIAN

  • Lindsay Ashton

    Paul Panther,

    How can you claim to know so much about Lisa Dorrian, but are unable to back up any of this gossip?

    Nobody knows what has happened to that poor girl so how can you “state” what has happened???

  • Anonymous

    WHY WOULD THE LVF KILL LISA BEFORE SHE HAD RECEIVED A RATHER LARGE AMOUNT OF COMPENSATION. SURELY THEY WOULD HAVE WAITED. DID SHE KNOW OR SEE SOMETHING? THE PRESS RELEASES AND COVERAGE BY THE MEDIA SEEMS VERY SPARCE MAYBE THE KILLERS OF LISA HAVE PEIOPLE IN HIGH PLACES.

  • Anonymous

    This is to Paul Panther and Rebecca Black and anyone else who has information about Lisa Dorian, do you not think the family is going throw enough without people who are allegedly saying that they know what happend to this lovely young girl, or is it a case you all think you know what happend and don’t have a clue ? if that is the case stop writting crap about it as it only makes matters worse for the family and friends who are tortured by this every day of their lives. Lisa was a daughter and sister who was ” and still is ” greatly loved by her family and anyone who has information to what happend to her should put their selves in her family’s position and let them have their daughter buried with the dignity that she deserves.

  • Anonymous

    After reading your comments again Paul panther , to say I am shocked at your information ( if true ) is an understatement , you seam to know an awful lot of information that would make others think you are either an L.V.F. scum bag or someone who likes to have others believe your full of information.

    No matter what you are “L.V.F.scum bag/TOUT/ or a WALTER MITTIE “ I don’t know how you can sleep in your bed at night, As one Loyalist Politician has quoted in the Media, some day who ever murdered Lisa will be a parent them selves or they have a sister at home, and like every other normal citizen in this country (Protestant and Catholic) I hope to god you don’t ever have to go through what the Dorian family are going through just now.

    So lets hope the SCUM BAGS who have done what ever with Lisa are caught sooner rather than later and the family can have their beloved daughter back to lay her at rest, as I have no doubt in my mind that this will happen again to some other family in Northern Ireland.

    One thing you are right about is this, YES everyone does know who is behind Lisa’s murder and doesn’t for one-minute think anything will come of this in the future.

  • Anonymous

    The last paragraph of my previose post may not be clear to others, what I meant to say was that Lisa’s murder is NOT and WILL NOT go unnoticed nor will it be forgot about by other’s who have taken an interest in it.

  • Mick

    To All:

    Please, remember that if you want to maintain annonimity, DO NOT include your real email address or hints at your real name when you post your comment.

  • brian

    Lets hope the killers of Robert Mcartney and Lisa Dorrian are caught and sent down for a long time,its best to have such evil people removed from the streets.What happened to being on ceasefire?These killings prove that all we have now are criminal gangs interested in making money,and having power, and only that.
    The graffiti on the wall should read” Im bored with corruption,lying and killing,any chance we can elect noraml people?”

  • Person

    Just seen the report on sky news this morning and its about time this family got the publicity that they deserve, THEY DON’T HAVE THEIR DAUGHTER’S BODY TO BURY, the McCartney’s at least have been able to do that with their brother.

  • Davros

    It’s worth pointing out that all those so keen to deflect attention from the McCartney murder( Green) to the Dorrian murder (Orange) by focussing on the issue of her missing body never mention all the Disappeared yet to be found (Green).

  • person

    Get a life Davros, we are not talking about Orange and Green here we are talking about a 25 year old girl who has been murdered by SCUM and who’s body has still not been found. This country is suppose to have a peace agreement now, when the so called ” Green people ” went missing nobody in this country was safe.
    And might I just add that the majority of people who went missing were murdered by the IRA

  • Davros

    Like it or not “person” the reason Lisa Dorrian has been brought onto this thread is to deflect attention away from the Republican Movement.

  • someone

    ive been watching and reading both stories! now the mc cartneys have their brothers murders. but what do the dorians have nothing not even a body to say good bye to! so davros if u have any heart think of the dorrians and their plea as poss as time goes by u someday or maybe u have a daughter that may stray along the same line how would u feel. as for ur last comment about diverting the attention away from the republican movement maybe u need to see clearly who needs the help! and who needs attention to get help to find their missing beloved daughter!

  • Whataboutwhatbout

    I’ll see your Lisa Dorrian and raise you a Gareth O’Connor.

  • Davros

    ‘someone’ – I have no idea what you are on about-
    the mccartneys don’t ‘have’ anybody.

  • some one

    to make myself clear to everyone why do all these families have to go through this horror or living nightmare its soul distroying for all concerned esp with the added help by the psni?!