'Seized money was from Northern heist'…

BERTIE Ahern has said that the money seized by Gardai in Cork and Dublin last month is linked to the Northern Bank robbery. The Taoiseach told Hearts & Minds: “Before I went to the United States, the position of the gardai (was) that they had done an enormous amount of forensic tests. But they are quite satisfied – professionally, absolutely and totally satisfied – as I understand it, that that money was part of the haul from the north.” Looks like there was something in my hunch based on Adams’ statement the other day after all..!

Adams had told a US audience on March 14:

Well, the garda may be finding lots of money, and fair play to them. But there’s no connection back between that money thus far-thus far. Now we could wake up tomorrow morning and there could be the evidence. But thus far there is none.

‘Thus far’… looks like that forensic evidence is there now though.

But if this subtle hint by Adams indicated prior knowledge of events, it makes you wonder where he got his information from.

  • Henry94

    Bertie appears to be confused between proof and opinion. The Gardai believed the money was from the Northern Bank and they ran a load of tests and they still believe it but the question is can they prove it. That they are satisfied is not the same as saying they can prove.

    My reading of it is that the tests are inconclusive.

    You wouldn’t here a cop saying he was satisfied that someones fingerprint was on a gun. It either is or it isn’t.

    Now it might be hard to prove. But we were promised that the tests would be decisive. It now appears that they were not.

  • Henry94

    “Before I went to the United States, the position of the gardai (was) that they had done an enormous amount of forensic tests.

    “But they are quite satisfied – professionally, absolutely and totally satisfied – as I understand it, that that money was part of the haul from the north.”

    You see he is associating the belief of the Gardai with the tests without saying that the one is based on the other. Cute enough.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Like Gerry saying the IRA told him they didn’t carry out the robbery and he believes (believed?) them?

    LOL!

  • tom luby

    henry 94 is perfectly correct – what is going on here, and it is obvious to those of us with eyes to see, is a vast, unending conspiracy to undermine our great and beloved leader, comrade big bearded effort;
    first of all the securocrats staged the northern bank robbery and placed some of the cash into obscure banks in co. cork to blame the ira and bring trouble for our leader (god bless and keep him!);
    and then the mccartney sisters sent their brother out to have a drink in magennis’s bar so that he would get stabbed and they would be able to launch a career on his corpse (think about it!);
    then the master stroke; richard o’rawe wrote his book about the hunger strikes, edited it, got a cover chosen, an excerpt sold to the sunday times (the real giveaway!) and it was published in just two weeks flat so that anti-peace process elements could claim falsely and maliciously that it wasn’t thatcher who killed the hunger strikers but our beloved leader;
    so if you consider all the facts its clear that the conspiracy has been well planned and organised and all about doing sinn fein down;
    and just a word to the wise – as our deputy great leader, coco the clown said, just be “very careful” if you want to challenge this version of events. okay!?

  • J Kelly

    It still comes back to the central point show us the proof not what you believe or are sure of.

  • factfinder

    Proof is not required to smear anyone or any organisation. All you need is a willing media to turn opinions into fact.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Who is your leader Tom? Who are you aligned with? What do you belive in?

    Are you surprised that The British, Unionists, Dublin, and the media would seek to dilute the demands of Republicans, and to weaken their voice?

    How do you propose do move society forward, some specifics please? What is your alternative?

  • Will

    I wonder is the proof which is being talked about the same truth, or lack of, which allowed Sinn Fein supporters to smear the McCartney family with false allegations that their US trip was funded by political backers…..

  • J Kelly

    Not that I would be one to believe Belfast security sources but for those of you who do UTV Teletext is quoting a Belfast Security Source as saying no link has been discovered between the money found in Cork and the Northern.

  • Henry94

    They can’t get no satisfaction.

  • factfinder

    There is a link. Both events took place in the 21st century. That is enough for a conviction in this country.

  • alex s

    Adams in America: Dog Day Afternoon with Warren Hoge…

    In listening to Adams being interviewed in the above ‘blog’ it was interesting to note that when reference was made to the Northern Bank Heist Adams made no attempt to deny it was the IRA.

  • factfinder

    George Bush made no attempt to deny he robbed the Northern either.

  • vespasian

    But they are quite satisfied – professionally, absolutely and totally satisfied – as I understand it, that that money was part of the haul from the North.”

    Which part of this do anyone not understand, the IRA did the job, the Garda know it, the dogs in the street know it, the posters on here know it. All this obfuscation does no credit to any of them.

    Accept it happened and move on.

  • Ireland Today

    BG:

    “But if this subtle hint by Adams indicated prior knowledge of events, it makes you wonder where he got his information from.”

    Good question. Bertie is controlling the release of Garda evidence. The Gardai cannot release information on this without “political clearance”. This puts Bertie in the driver’s seat, where he likes to be.

    He told Adams and Kennedy different stories. Adams got the full story because Bertie and Adams are working together on the “process” long term.

    Kennedy got the part that Bertie must release soon, the proof of the Cork/Belfast banknotes connection. Bertie could not hold that back from Kennedy or Kennedy would crucify him when it came out. Adams had to suck it in, because it’s release is essential to pulling the plug on the South Armagh IRA, which is the real “process” here. (There is no such thing as a Belfast IRA any more; it is all Sinn Fein now.)

    The Gardai will move when Bertie tells them to. But in the meantime he wants to give Adams room to breathe, to get his “ducks” in a row.

    Remember after the GFA when the Garda Special Branch and the IRA were doing the rounds together to the “dissidents”? Bertie and Adams are planning for when they will be paying a visit to the next set of “dissidents”, Slab Murphy’s South Armagh army. It may not be as easy as McKevitt’s crowd, unless Murphy has decided he has made enough money and it is time to retire. But they all heard Kennedy and the Americans: the IRA has to go.

    Even without Murphy, Bertie and Adams know that some diehards will be a necessary part of the “process”. So when the endgame comes they will need each other’s “armies”, as happened in 1998.

    I suspect Britain is on hightened alert because both MI5 and South Armagh don’t need me to tell them what is going on. The final battle of the “process” is about to take place, if there is to be one, I hope not. That’s up to South Armagh.

    I am reminded of the words filmmaker Neil Jordan put in the mouth of Michael Collins: “I don’t hate them (the British) for their race …… I hate them because they gave us no other choice”.

    How true. We are where we are in this hateful “process” because the f*&#@% British never left anywhere cleanly. They should have taken their money and their army out of Ireland a long time ago. The unionists get more money from the British in one year than the Republic got from the EU since joining.

    Without British money and without the British army the unionists would be a lot easier to deal with than the boys from the County Armagh. But as Michael Collins said %*&$# British gave us no choice.

  • factfinder

    Is it the f*&#@% British or the %*&$# British

  • Will

    Its actually a tirade of pure s***e!

  • aquifer

    Sounds only too plausible IT

    But if the IRA have achieved a reasonably efficient synthesis between organised crime, terror, and political action, the americans may not wish to leave the model available to other groups with grander political objectives, nor allow SFPIRA success as socialists or as anything else.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    If there was convincing evidence then it would be out in the open by now. There have been leaks, spins and nudges by the bucket load. I see the dog in the street has even made another appearance.
    Last week Bertie was trying to put republicans in the frame over the securior raid in Dublin, even the tired old Irish News huffed and puffed in behind Bertie with a siren front page headline.

    Result, next day it was North Dub ODC’s, Bertie says nothing and the Irish News pretends it never printed it’s story in the first place.

    The villagers with torches on this site really are looking desperate.

  • DerryTerry

    I’m very impressed that the quotation from Bertie can be viewed as evidence of anything. My reading of the following quote “…they had done an enormous amount of forensic tests. But they are quite satisfied..” is that IN SPITE of the forensic tests as opposed to as a result of them, the boys in blue are still satisified, despite no evidence, that the money has to have come from the Northern bank. That’s not evidence, that’s opinion. Woof, woof, woof

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Would any of the republicans responding to this thread like to offer some kind – any kind – of explanation for the several million quid discovered in the shed of a Sinn Fein worker who subsequently resigned from several firms over the find ?

  • Henry94

    Roger

    He wasn’t a Sinn Fein worker or even a member of the party. There was a Sinn Fein member arrested miles away at the same time.

    This arrrest was used to link Sinn Fein to the money but the man in question was released without charge.

    An explanation may be required for the money but in fairness I don’t see how posters here could be expected to provide one. It’s not my garden the money was in.

  • vespasian

    DT

    you left out this bit – ‘professionally, absolutely and totally satisfied’ makes a subtle difference to your argument.

  • Atlantic

    “I wonder is the proof which is being talked about the same truth, or lack of, which allowed Sinn Fein supporters to smear the McCartney family with false allegations that their US trip was funded by political backers…..” Will

    Liz McManus Labour Td admitted that she organised the funding of the Trip to the tune of 10K via an “anonymous” backer – this is the same Liz McManus who appeared beaming with Mark Durkan at his launch of his “A Better Way to a Better Ireland” policy yesterday – coincidence huh ?

  • Ringo

    6 of sluggers finest flat-earthers at it again.

    I don’t know how DT will handle it when he finds out that the IRA were resposible after all – I hope he’s sitting down and someone is on hand to give him a glass of water. Between that and hearing the news about Santa Claus in the space of a couple of months, it could be devastating for him.

    As for the rest – give it up lads, its gone beyond a joke at this stage.

  • irelands32

    Errmm silly question maybe but what ‘tests’ exactly have been carried out? I mean how much forensics is needed to check a serial number and why has it taken 2 months to do it.

    Or is it that the IRA are so cunning that they disguised these bank notes as paper napkins and the Gardai have called in CSI

    Ridiculous!

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    This issueis not about the robbery as such but rather about the manipulation of evidence and an investigation for political reasons.

    Remember that there is nothing linking Sinn Fein to the money recovered in the south and the only person charged is allegedly a member of the rira.

    I was drawn to comment by the Taoiseach’s bizzare attempt to link the Garda view to the forensic tests.

    He tried to convey the impression that the view was caused by the tests. But it wasn’t. The tests were undertaken to provide support for the view and it looks to me like they have failed.

    So we get a classic piece of Bertiespeak to disguise the reality.

    The question is did any of the forensic tests carried out provide support for the claim that the notes were from the bank.

    Can you show me in Bertie’s statement where that question was answered. Because if the proof is there I’m quite willing to accept it.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ringo,

    take the torch out of your eyes it’s blinding you to reality and the truth that exists at present.

    As predicted the myths and fables as well as the half truths have now become established fact. The statement from Ahern is remarkable given that it appears to have been dismissed almost immediately by people he is supposed to be liasing with.

    Give it up indeed, it definitely is beyond a joke and ceased to be even mildly amusing some time ago.

  • Ringo

    Pat –

    reality and the truth that exists at present

    what a gem.

    Henry94 –

    As far as I am concerned it is about who did the robbery. You are entitled to expect that no one be prosecuted for the robbery until sufficient evidence is available, and nothing to the contrary has occured. Regarding the IRA’s involvement, it reminds me of what Fergus Flood said about corruption in his tribunal – ‘If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck’.

    You cannot look at ‘the manipulation of evidence and an investigation for political reasons’ while excluding the duck. Given the ludicrous position held by (apparently) every single member of Sinn Fein, i.e., the IRA didn’t do it, it is clear to everyone else that the greatest spinning and manipulation of the evidence (or lack of) for political purposes (namely damage limitation) is being done by Sinn Fein.

    You’re at it as well. While you don’t deny the IRA carried it out (and to the best of my knowledge never have) you are intent on moving the threshold required for acceptace of the idea that the IRA did it to unacceptable levels. Contrast this with the securicor job done in Dublin – the finger was pointed at a well known gang and despite none of the cash being recovered, and little or no evidence, I don’t see anyone jumping up and down demanding that we see the evidence and claiming that there is some shady motive behind the allegations.

    Bertie remarks aren’t worth a new thread on slugger. A bank was robbed in Belfast, vast sums of money turn up in Cork and all over the Republic – why the surprise at this latest remark?

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    I maintain a sceptical stance to claims regarding the robbery because of statements like Berties and because I was decieved by the media at the outset.

    When the news of the raids in Cork broke I initally believed the misleading reports that a Sinn Fein member had been arrested in possesion of stolen money from the bank and I reacted to that here and elsewhere.

    But when the media politicians and the police combine or conspire to distort what’s going on then the only sensible attitude is a questioning one.

    Bertie was taking people for eejits last night. He tried to convey the impression that the forensic tests had led the gardai to the conclusion the cash was from the Bank heist.

    But when you look at what he said with a questioning eye that is not the case at all.

    There are two links yet be established. One is the link between the IRA and the Cork cash and the other is between the Cork cash and the Northern Bank. It’s that simple.

  • Henry94

    Even the Irish Independent are flatly contradicting Aherns claim

    “Although senior officers have stated they were investigating links between the robbery and the money laundering scam, security sources close to the inquiry said last night that detectives have yet to prove beyond doubt the notes seized in the Republic came from the Northern Bank robbery.”

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Henry:

    “One is the link between the IRA and the Cork cash…”

    Correct me if I’m wrong (and I could be), but wasn’t Phil Flynn one of the Cork money lending firm’s directors? Was the relationship between Mr Flynn and Brian Keenan not the subject of discussion recently?

    Not that that PROVES anything, but you can’t ‘prove’ anything on a website really. Makes for interesting debate though. The Aherns and McDowell will look very stupid if the link doesn’t exist.

    Anyway, Adams seems to expect evidence linking Cork to the Northern money to come up some time, which seems odd.

    I thought Ireland Today’s post was thought-provoking.

  • Henry94

    BG

    Are you suggesting Phil Flynn is in the IRA?? If so I’m amazed that Bertie Ahern appointed it him to run the governments decentralisation program.

  • Ringo

    There are two links yet be established. One is the link between the IRA and the Cork cash and the other is between the Cork cash and the Northern Bank. It’s that simple.

    I agree. The problem is that while I am satisfied from what I have heard from the Guards and the Government that the links exist in both cases, you’re not. You can alway keep pushing that threshold of acceptance higher and higher just out of reach of the available evidence, so it is pretty pointless. Especially when you have no reason to suspect that anyone else carried out the robbery in the first place.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Henry94

    Don’t be daft.

    You asked for a link. I provided you with one. It might not be a great one, but if Flynn is hanging out with the reputed leader of the IRA, it’s bound to raise questions.

    Adams seems to expect a link to be made between the Northern cash and the Cork cash, so we’ll find out in the end.

  • Henry94

    BG

    Remind me again. Has Phil Flynn been charged with any offence in relation to the bank or the money. Or anything.

    He was a director of a company and one of his fellow directors had a lot of cash in his garden.

    if Flynn is hanging out with the reputed leader of the IRA, it’s bound to raise questions.

    By that reasoning you could tie Bertie Ahern in. He was a known associate of Phil Flynn.

    Ringo

    You can alway keep pushing that threshold of acceptance higher and higher just out of reach of the available evidence

    That implies wrongly that they keep producing more evidence and I keep asking for more again.

    Forensic evidence would be decisive in linking the bank to the cash. My issue is with Bertie implying that it exists when it doesn’t.

    Do you believe there is forensic evidence linking the two?

  • Ringo

    That implies wrongly that they keep producing more evidence and I keep asking for more again.

    First off, neither of us (I’m assuming you’re clean 😉 ) will ever get to see evidence, so really all we’re working off is the reputation and information provided by those that are dealing directly with the evidence. I accept the Garda Commissioners bona fides. I also put a LOT of weight behind the Taoiseachs opinion on this, not because of his office but because of the cautious cover your ass way he operates.

    We’ve come a long way since late December when there was no link and your caution was appropriate. Since then nothing has occured that in any way points in some other direction. Meanwhile all infomation that has come into the public domain since then has merely increased the likelyhood of the IRA’s involvemment. Finally massive amounts of sterling turn up in a money laundering operation in the republic.

    And you’ve moved with the times from a position of holding fire until more information appears to
    now specifically requiring definitive forensic evidence linking the found cash to the bank and the IRA to both. So yes you do keep asking for more again. If forensic evidences was forthcoming I’ve no doubt you’d question the validity. Then you’d question the link between the money and the IRA. If it went to court I’ve no doubt you’d question the Garda’s eagerness to get a conviction. If someone was jailed it would be a stitch-up. And so on and so on…

    Forensic evidence would be decisive in linking the bank to the cash. My issue is with Bertie implying that it exists when it doesn’t.

    Do you believe there is forensic evidence linking the two?

    I believe what we’ve been told – that they are looking to forensically tie the notes to the bank. Now, as they aren’t doing this with any other bundles of sterling down here I believe they have good reason to be paying very special attention to these notes.

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    That was a nice swerve. My “bar raising” has been taken from the past and moved to the future.

    Since then nothing has occured that in any way points in some other direction

    Money was found in an RUC sports complex and a dissident republican was arrested with cash.

    now specifically requiring definitive forensic evidence linking the found cash to the bank and the IRA to both

    I’m not actually looking for a forensic link at all. I am just wondering why the Taoiseach is pretending he has one when he doesn’t.

    If forensic evidences was forthcoming I’ve no doubt you’d question the validity.

    So you accept that it hasn’t been forthcoming. Good. Why do you think Bertie pretended it was.

    I believe what we’ve been told – that they are looking to forensically tie the notes to the bank.

    I believe that too. But Bertie was trying to give the impresion that they had it done.

  • DerryTerry

    Ringo,

    Without wanting to repeat myself yet again and without boring you and everyone else I’m going to say it once more “Show us the evidence!”

    Northern Bank – no evidence.
    IRA connection to Cork money – no evidence

    Nothing has changed other than the original opinions offered have been repeated again and again. This does not make it true, it merely makes it repetitive and repitition, with the best will in the world, does not evidence make.

    Pass that man a glass of water

  • factfinder

    The police forces on both sides of the border have had too much pressure put on them by the governments to connect the robbery to the party which is opposition to them and especially the Dublin Government who are in danger of losing seats. The police should be completely free from government interference to investigate crimes.

  • factfinder

    The Northern Bank robbery and the McCartney killing are now too politicized. They should be investigated by another independant police service.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Remind me again. Has Phil Flynn been charged with any offence in relation to the bank or the money. Or anything.

    *sigh*

    No he hasn’t, but it’s an interesting coincidence at the very least that a business man like Mr Flynn seems acquainted with Mr Keenan. He doesn’t personally owe me an explanation, but it’s certainly unusual company for someone with a reputation like his and obviously raised more than my eyebrows.

    Nevertheless, you asked for a link and I gave you a possible one. I don’t need to do any more.

    He was a director of a company and one of his fellow directors had a lot of cash in his garden.

    Yes, this is indeed normal, everyday behaviour. Not. Eyebrows now approaching bald spot.

    By that reasoning you could tie Bertie Ahern in. He was a known associate of Phil Flynn.

    You certainly could, if you were that way inclined. I think Bertie is too clever to allow this to become his Watergate though!

  • Alan2

    The News Letter has an article pointing out that investigations are still ongoing and that security souces say none of the money from Cork has positively been identifying as being money from the Northern raid.

  • Ringo

    DT –

    I’m not a cop and you’re not a judge, so even if it was raining Northern Bank notes with provo’s stapled to them I wouldn’t be showing you any evidence.

    Henry –

    Lets cut to the chase – You know they did the robbery, you’re unsure about the money laundering operation and you are fairly sure Bertie was waffling about the forensic link. Fair enough.

    The only personal information I have from a guard is that the money laundering operation was indeed targeted specifically at the PIRA.

  • Ringo

    And Belfast Gonzo is right to suggest that Phil Flynn’s association with all this is very suspicious. At least the Bulgarian government thinks so.

    Regarding his membership of the IRA I think he is on record as saying that he was involved in low level IRA activity in Louth when he was young.

  • factfinder

    The large sums of money found was probably more to do with tax evasion than money laundering.

  • factfinder

    The Dublin government has first hand experience with tax evasion.

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    I have an open mind about who did the robbery. I await the evidence and I question the hype.

    On the specific point of this thread you appear to be coming around to my view that Bertie was not being honest. You say waffling but I’d suspect he was doing more than that.

    But we’re agreed he was not giving us the true picture.

  • Ringo

    Henry

    to be perfectly honest I paid no heed to what Bertie said. There is a big difference between Templemore-speak and Leinster House-speak and I’m not sure that he would be any more clued in than me regarding forensic analysis. But he rarely says something without meaning something by it so you may have a point.

    Either way it makes no difference as this thread shows – you either believed the IRA is robbed the bank by the end of January or you refuse to believe it.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Phil Flynn was a very well known SF official throughout the 1970’s ans early 1980’s when he was Vice president of the party.

    The Bulgarian connection (as such) related to buying a number of properties that weren’t very expensive. The buying the bank story is a load of crap and no evidence exists of such.

    Once again a few posters read a few newspapers and then the tales become fact.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Pat

    Agree with everything you say there. The Bulgarian bank story is indeed a load of old tosh. Your version of the property story also seems correct, and I’ve no idea how or who was to pay for it.

    Flynn’s SF history has been well-documented by now, as you indicate.

    I still smell a rat though. I’m sure we’ll find out soon enough. If you’re looking for signs of portent, read Gerry Adams’ statements(!)

  • Cthulhu

    Let’s stop and have a rational thought on the topic…

    If this really was such a dead-bang gotcha, there would be a lot more fire to go with all this smoke. Right now, I hear a lot of press-conferences and not a lot of formal charges and evidence. If the PSNI and / or the Gardai really had evidence, there would be something more than trial by news release.

    Contrast this with the proposed secrecy regarding the Finucane inquest and you get quite the double-standard on how these matters should be addressed.