Sisters must not allow themselves to be manipulated

Gerry Adams re-iterated Martin McGuinness’s warning to the McCartney sisters not to allow themselves to be politically manipulated by others. Anthony McIntyre, the only person named by McGuinness as helping the sisters, had his right of reply in this morning’s edition of the BBC Radio 4 Today programme.

  • Davros

    Gerry Can rattle on all he likes about wanting to see an Ireland where an IRA won’t be necessary. Fact of the matter is that this means he wants to see an Ireland run by Presidente Adams and once that happens the IRA as we know it will cease to exist. Until he’s in charge in his mind the IRA is still necessary.

  • slug9987

    Do you think that Adams will lead SF until his 80s like Paisley has?

  • peteb
  • Davros

    When did Gerry EVER listen to anything he didn’t want to hear ?

  • Brian Boru

    The only manipulating of the MbCartney family I see is by SF, and their apologists, both in the media and on sluggers.

  • slug9987

    séanna boy

    Who tortured him?

  • slug9987

    Terrible. Do you have any links about this story, not doubting you at all, just interested to read more.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Gerry’s ears must be burning, Davros calm down, it is so out of character.

  • fair_deal

    It is becoming evidently clear that the republican movement had pinned their hopes of the Ard Fheis moment to try and put the McCartneys back in their box.

    Now that has failed they have gone for threat or smear. Threats and smears always prefaced with “We support the mccartney’s 100%…..”. A pretty pathetic veneer.

  • IJP

    The only manipulating of the MbCartney family I see is by SF, and their apologists, both in the media and on sluggers.

    Correct.

    Everyone else has wisely left leadership of the McCartneys’ campaign for justice to the people it should be left to: the McCartneys.

    In its desperation, SF has now stooped to accusing the McCartneys of lying when they said they were not being manipulated, and then repeating that accusation.

    SF is in effect asking us whether we trust it or the McCartneys…

  • Belfast Gonzo

    séanna boy

    Do you have a point? After all, it was McGuinness that dragged McIntyre’s name into this, not McIntyre. You seem to be trying to drag his name back into it, even though he says he’s not involved.

    Now why would that be?

  • mickhall

    Trawl through the archives in Anthony Mc Intyres own site and you will get a flavour of what is in the PUBLIC domain.

    Posted by: séanna boy

    Good advice to anyone to trawl through the Blanket archive, it can be found here,

    http://lark.phoblacht.net/currentissue.html

    On reading it you will see what nonsense these attacks on McIntrye are. Take séanna boy attempt to link Anthony with Vincent Mc Kenna, a man who ended up in prison if I am not mistaken for child molestation. This is the depths some of the Shinners hangers on have sunk to, they have no argument to put forth, so out comes the smears and inuendos, what principled Rebels they are! So an Irish Republican who did his duty as he saw it as a loyal volunteer of the PIRA, (WHEN THE WAR WAS ON) then spent 18 years in jail, during which he was a Blanketman, can now be compared without a shred of evidence with such a being. Shame on you séanna boy, as Mick would sat, ball not man.

    séanna boy Gerry Adams called the war off not any dissident, so stop dressing yourself in the green and find away forward,

  • Liam

    Davros:

    Gerry Can rattle on all he likes about wanting to see an Ireland where an IRA won’t be necessary.

    Serious question – Do you not believe this?

    Fact of the matter is that this means he wants to see an Ireland run by Presidente Adams….

    I’m not so sure that he has any ambitions to be ‘Presidente’. But I am quite sure that he does genuinely want to see an Ireland where his policies and objectives are achieved – but then do not all politicians have the same aspirations? Are they not entitled to pursue those aspirations?

    “Until he’s in charge in his mind the IRA is still necessary.

    You need to get real here. If you seriously believe that then why did the IRA offer to decommission ALL its weapons last December? Why ahs Adams consistently said that republicans need to be ready to remove the existence of the IRA as an excuse for those who reject the GFA?

    I really don’t think that you know his mind at all Davros!

  • Jacko

    Mick Hall hits the nail on the head.

    This “séanna boy” character should not be allowed to use this site to seriously smear people he doesn’t agree with.

    McIntyre’s politics are not the same as mine, but it seems his crime, like the McCartney’s more recently, is to disagree with the totalitarian tendencies of the provisionals and, in an articulate fashion, be unafraid to say so.

  • Travis

    Sounds like a red card offence to me.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    I have absolutely no knowledge of what happened at Moyard and whether Mc Intyre had any contact with the people involved. He appears to accept the word of any hood or family with a gripe as long as it attacks the SF leadership. The Derry cases are a point of note.

    He has been putting himself about in the media recently, broadcasting and writing articles that descend into personnal attacks on SF leaders. If he is the intellect he is alleged to be he must be aware that his sole purpose of use for the media is to wield the dagger. If he is happy in that postion then he should himself accept a few brickbats.

    All fair enough and above board, but why do his supporters get so sensitive on the issue.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Provided his critics confine themselves to verbal attacks I see no problem. I assume by “brickbats” you weren’t including the picketing of his home.

  • Jacko

    After perusing The Blanket, pasted below is the only article I could find even vaguely related to what this “séanna boy” character is on about.
    Judge for yourselves.

    Must say, The Blanket isn’t a usual port of call for me, but this guy McIntyre can both think and write, a dangerous combination, no wonder the totalitarians hate him so much. It has now been added to my favourites list.

    The Pat McLarnons
    “The Derry cases are a point of note.”

    So the wife of hunger striker Mickey Devine, who spoke out in Derry against Bart The Butcher and had a gun put to her head by the provos. for doing so, is a hood in your estimation. Interesting perspective – but not surprising.

    Anyway, here is the offending article:

    The Power to Force Respect

    Anthony McIntyre

    After many years of intra-community conflict in Ballymurphy, the McMahon family – perceived to be a ‘problem’ by its neighbours – has finally been compelled to pack its bags and move elsewhere. While there are young children in the family who bear no culpability for the behaviour of older family members their rights went by the wayside in all of this. Against this there was a genuine feeling in the estate that the children were used as a shield by their older brothers and that ultimately there was no alternative but to force the family out. Many would feel that as the family are to be quickly re-housed and were not unceremoniously dumped on the street no rights were in fact violated.

    There is little doubt that had the family pulled its horns in it would still be living in Ballymurphy. As one of those behind the move to evict the family said, many attempts had been made in the past to avoid this point ever being reached. The “long and sustained pressure” to induce it into leaving, which Ballymurphy residents spokesperson Rosemary Lawlor referred to, would have dissipated and fizzled out. The family itself ensured that it remained in the public gaze.

    Communities must have some means of dealing with “neighbours from hell” otherwise daily life can take on a hellish character for those living alongside them. The mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, has said as much himself. And it can hardly be claimed that he wants to violate the rights of his neighbours. But already in the discourse employed by the forces behind the campaign to expel the McMahon family can be found an ominous inflection.

    Liam Stone, usually not over the top in his response to community problems, has spoken of “the start of a peaceful, non-violent approach to dealing with families which the community does not want living among them”. Micky McMahon of Whiterock Westrock Residents’ Association has claimed that “this is a sign that families will only be able to live in the community when they claim the respect of their neighbours”. Language of this sort raises the question of what type of rights do families have against the community?

    A loose perusal of Liam Stone and Micky McMahon’s views might conclude that both men are speaking strictly against the backdrop of the McMahon family and that nothing further can be inferred from their comments which might be seen to impinge on the situation of other families. A tighter reading however might conclude that a new discourse is being created through which people are being positioned into groups – those who have the power to demand respect and those too powerless to resist and who must therefore acquiesce to the community regime which in turn is invariably shaped by those most powerful within the community and whose power is not always derived from the community.

    In the case of the McMahon family there are already rumblings that despite the widespread dismay at its behaviour only a minority of neighbours signed a petition calling on the Housing Executive to have them evicted. Furthermore, whispers are alleging that a Sinn Fein member has been lined up to secure the house. None of this has been substantiated and may of course merely be the inevitable envy and resentment accompanied by back-biting that goes on when frustrated people think their allocated place in the waiting list should be higher than it is. Sinn Fein members like everyone else need houses to live in and some have been on the list for years. But house allocation should be above any suspicion of political vetting or favouritism. And given that the local Sinn Fein councillor has been to the fore in pressing the Housing Executive to move the family, no matter how justified her motives in this particular case may have been, the need for total transparency and public accountability at every step of these processes is considerably amplified. Without such openness and susceptibility to public scrutiny the rumblings that already exist may continue to grow and call into question the legitimacy of a strategy which if managed properly and impartially at least has the potential to alleviate community suffering.

    Moreover, relating back to the comments of Liam Stone and Micky McMahon, what is it that people have to respect – their neighbour’s political opinions among other things? People can treat the political perspective of their neighbours with absolute contempt if they so choose without fear of being harassed on the grounds of ‘no respect’. The pseudo charter that was once put through the doors in these estates more or less felt obliged to concede that principle if only on paper.

    If justice is to prevail in the communities in which we live then in order to reside in them people need only abide by the agreed and established, non-hierarchical and transparent customs that regulate day to day behaviour. Outside of that, what their neighbours think of them or whether they respect them or not is irrelevant.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Some people have unjustifyably tried to climb aboard the Mc Cartney bandwagon. The Mc Ginleys and Robinsons are two of those.
    Better to portray yourself the victim rather than the author of your own misfortune. Of course the trick has been learned to portray yourself as a ‘republican family’ apparently that helps the credibility.

  • Jacko

    The Pat McLarnons
    Nothing to say on Mrs. Devine then I take it.

    Another Blanket article worth reading pasted below:

    Authoring Our Own Scripts

    Anthony McIntyre
    19/5/2002

    In recent days a young Ballymurphy man and convicted drug dealer was the victim of a punishment beating. While he denies any recent involvement in drug dealing or abusive activity, it is easier to stumble across a black member of the Ku Klux Klan in this community than it is to find someone who believes him. His mother claimed to have also been assaulted during the attack and is able to show injuries to support her contentions. Over a year ago another son was attacked in the same family home and in the account of the mother she was assaulted then also. Her crime it seems is to physically place herself between her children and those intent on attacking them. The Andersonstown News gave a fair amount of coverage to the latest attack. Even where competing claims were hardly credible the paper reported on them also. The mother, for example, claiming that one of her sons was only convicted in relation to peripheral involvement in the 1999 sadistic murder of local man Sean May because the RUC needed to justify having arrested him in the first place; and the local Sinn Fein councillor asserting that republicans were not involved in the latest Iranian style maiming.

    Of some concern is the statement by the Sinn Fein councillor that she is working in conjunction with the Housing Executive in a bid to have ‘this problem family’ rehoused outside of Ballymurphy. Few in this estate would disagree with her on the turbulent and disruptive disposition of the family. Fewer again would shed tears if the family were removed from the area, for the most part viewing it as a source of relief rather than a cause for celebration. There have been complaints about it for years, most of them true. Two sons of the father of the house were recently convicted of the murder of Sean May. That the family have managed to stay as long as it has amazes most. Numerous interventions on its behalf have failed to alter its relationship with the bulk of people in the community. Visits to imprisoned family members by Sinn Fein activists to discuss a new approach have met with promises only to be broken upon release. And there is no concerted community attack on the family to force it to conform to certain beliefs or values simply because they are prevalent within the locality. People, many of them elderly and who have lived in the area for decades simply want relief from the torment that members of the family continue to inflict. There are young children in the family home who have every right to live in peace free from marauding bands intent on violently policing their siblings. The difficulty is that because the parents continue to provide the older sons with a base and ‘safe house’ from which much socially disruptive activity is orchestrated, many in the community genuinely feel that alternative housing is the only option. They are simply at the end of their tether.

    The concern in relation to the comments of the Sinn Fein councillor, however, is that unless there is complete transparancy in relation to how any powerful group in the community negotiates with the Housing Executive or any other agency in relation to those who live in the community, there will remain the suspicion that the stated reasons for seeking the removal of any family are not always the real ones; that there may in fact be a few hidden and selfish motives lurking amongst the range of general concerns presented to the statutory bodies. And this concern is fulled by allegations in some quarters that in certain cases local republicans have been trying to secure ‘key’ money in return for facilitating house transfers. Furthermore, while it has never been suggested that the Sinn Fein councillor is implicated in any of this the fact remains that she has been involved in a totally futile attempt to intimidate and pressurise some of her constituents who spoke out against the murder of another constituent. This suggests the existence of an agenda on her part which is heavily embedded in the local power structure and which is not powered by any concern for justice, restorative or otherwise. This makes the existence of the current community charter and its claim to uphold for all ‘open expression or celebration of their religious, cultural or political affiliation’, all the more laughable.

    Moreover, there is a widespread belief – even commented on by Sinn Fein members and supporters – that there is an absence of evenhandedness in the application of community sanctions. What justice is there in a situation where a Sinn Fein associate can defraud a local family of three thousand pound and yet sit in full public view at the election count scrutinising identities on behalf of the party when other community members are brutalised for considerably less?

    It is encouraging that the family at the centre of the dispute were provided with the opportunity to publicise their case. Attempts to silence those with a different point of view are all too frequent as West Belfast increasingly takes on the characteristics of a one party mini state. Defying the censors is meritorious and lauadable in its own right. Yet, the case that the family presents falls far short of being persuasive. Even those prepared to listen feel it has all been said before and that little will change; that time will be bought and space secured in which the local neighbours will be treated with contempt and the quality of their lives diminished even further.

    The family is largely the author of its own narrative and denouement. Yet if the community is to benefit from its exclusion it needs to write its own script on tablets of stone in order to guarantee transparancy and accountability. When one party armed with unaccountable power can set the community agenda without reference to those who live there it is only a matter of time before abuses occur at the stroke of another’s pen. And in this community they already have.

  • Mick Fealty

    séanna boy:

    I’ve removed your contributions because we’re informed that they could be libelous. It’s not impossible to attack McIntyre on the substance of what he’s said in public domain.

    That’s a Yellow Card. Please play the game hard, but cleanly!

  • alex s

    “The Mc Ginleys and Robinsons are two of those.
    Better to portray yourself the victim rather than the author of your own misfortune”

    Pat, you make it sound like these two committed suicide, yet surely they too were victims?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    alex s,

    Both died from horrific injuries. It is the circumstances of their death that causes the dispute.
    The facts of the Mc Ginley case are well know. Any reading of the case I saw indicated that Mc Ginley was guilty of a sustained attack on Fisher. This fact was recognised by the trial judge and his belief that it was at the lower end of the manslaughter scale. Fisher should not have stabbed anyone and that was why he was jailed.
    I heard Mc Ginleys aunt on RTE Primetime come off with what can only be described as a manufactured account of the attack.
    The fact is no one knows the exact circumstances of what happened to Robinson only the fact he was beaten and stabbed.
    Mu reading of the situation in Derry is that such events are a common occurence among the hoods in the town.

  • Jacko

    Pat Mc Larnon

    You seem to have explanations for most things, so how come you still haven’t explained why the provisionals threatened Mrs. Devine with a gun.

  • IJP

    I think SF should be very careful not to allow itself to be manipulated by the IRA.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Jackal,

    now read this slowly and try to understand I identified you yesterday as a troll, worse still an anonymous troll. I don’t reply to you.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Jacko, welcome to the Pat McLarnon sin bin. If you criticise SF or ask hard questions, you get the silent treatment. Pat is still continuing the Sinn Fein approach to this problem on the ground which is to try to demonize anyone who is attacked by the IRA. Rumours are being circulated in the New Lodge at the moment about supposed scummy activities McCartney is supposed to have been involved; I find it hard to believe given their past record that those rumours are not starting off from the republicans.

    McIntyre is an outstanding writer, even if I don’t agree with his views on a lot of things, and it’s clear that he makes the other chuckies very annoyed with his mouth. He’d need to be careful though or they’ll demonize him too. One more step and they’ll be calling him an NIO mouthpiece.

  • vespasian

    PMcL

    As a matter of interest what is your definition of a troll?

    It is someone who raises points you disagree with and who asks questions you don’t want to answer?

    See, Troll Definition for a detailed description.

  • vespasian

    2nd attempt

    troll definition

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    vespasian,

    I wish you type of people would make up your mind what it is I actually represent. One week I am the person who is constantly on defending EVERY SINGLE post. Next I am the person who doesn’t want to answer. A quick view of the archives will see that your view is in fact a lie.

    My definition of a troll is a person (usually anonymous, see above) who tries to have a logical argument but after a while in a thread exposes their own lack of capability by making personal attacks, unsubstantiated charges and then the last resort of gable wall unionism.
    After one or two posts it really isn’t good enough to wail , but youse are only provos anyway and GA and MMcG are bastards.

    Put a logical and coherent point and it will be answered.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    BTW,

    interesting to see the trolls herding together like the sheep they undoubtedly are.

  • IJP

    Pat

    But every time someone asks a tricky question you turn to accusations of ‘trolling’, as you have done with me (and I’m not anonymous).

    Some people might think your position as identical to the SF Leadership’s, as far as that can be determined.

  • IJP

    BTW,

    interesting to see the trolls herding together like the sheep they undoubtedly are.

    BTW,

    I think this requires some explanation.

    Who are the sheep here?

    Your views seem to follow the SF Leadership’s – are you a sheep?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    IJP,

    ‘But every time someone asks a tricky question you turn to accusations of ‘trolling’, as you have done with me (and I’m not anonymous).’

    Not true, as a cursory glance at the archives will testify. When a question is deemed sensible it is answered in full. Do you know that a person mouthing untruths is a liar?

    ‘Some people might think your position as identical to the SF Leadership’s, as far as that can be determined.’

    Reading you own comments they are identical to the broad unionist bigotry that permeates the site. Some people might think you are having difficulty controlling your own sectarian urges.

    Example of trolling, please read and learn,

    ‘Rumours are being circulated in the New Lodge at the moment about supposed scummy activities McCartney is supposed to have been involved; I find it hard to believe given their past record that those rumours are not starting off from the republicans.’

    A complete unsubstantiated load of lies that qualifies as trolling. The surprising thing is these people (sic) expect democrats to debate with them.

    ‘Your views seem to follow the SF Leadership’s – are you a sheep?’

    Again a true reading of the archives will prove that to be another lie.

  • vespasian

    PMcL

    I am very well aware of what you represent – someone who will try to hold the SF/IRA line in the face of all fact, reason or anything else.

    While as there many on this site who will criticse ALL parties and factions for their acts you do not appear to be one of them.

    For example I am quite happy to critise ALL terrorists of whatever hue and to point out the weknesses and stupidities of all the parties. The DUP for whose sectarian policies I have absolutely no time, the UUP who are leaderless, directionless and only slightly less bigoted than the DUP and the SDLP who talk about democratic politics and will not dump SF who are wedded to violence. But most of my opprobrium is saved for SF who took my vote (and I suspect very many others) for the GFA and have used it to promote themselves electorally while still being completely comfortable in compnay with the culture of criminality that is evident in the ranks of the IRA, at least up until the McCartney sisters appeared.

    Let us all hear your critique of SF and the IRA and what you think THEY (not anyone else) should jointly do to stablise politics in Northern Ireland.

  • IJP

    Pat

    Reading you own comments they are identical to the broad unionist bigotry that permeates the site.

    Show me a single example…

    … or apologize.

    A complete unsubstantiated load of lies that qualifies as trolling.

    It does.

    Problem is, the example you used is in fact true.

    The surprising thing is these people (sic) expect democrats to debate with them.

    ‘These people’? You’re the prime example.

    You accuse people who say they’re not being used of lying, you accuse people stating facts of lying, you accuse people who have not even hinted at sectarianism of bigotry.

    Again a true reading of the archives will prove that to be another lie.

    Really?

    Show me a single example of where you have disagreed with the SF Leadership. Or indeed, as Vespasian puts it: Let us all hear your critique of SF and the IRA and what you think THEY (not anyone else) should jointly do to stablise politics in Northern Ireland.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    “A complete unsubstantiated load of lies that qualifies as trolling.”

    Pat this is a pile of rubbish. Posting unsubstantiated material is not trolling. Anyone is free to follow up and say “that’s unsubstantiated”.

    You and your pals have posted a tonne of stuff that has been completely unsubstantiated, like to take a recent example your view on the recovery of the money at Newforge. While it was rubbish I didn’t call you a troll because it’s perfectly legitimate to introduce unsubstantiated or speculative points into a discussion.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    vespasian,

    ‘I am very well aware of what you represent – someone who will try to hold the SF/IRA line in the face of all fact, reason or anything else.’

    Not true i’m afraid, the rest of your post is therefore irrelevant.

    IJP,

    i’m not on here to trawl through the archives to strengthen your arguments. You and other unionists are basically dishonest and peddle any old half truth as facts and certainties. An alternative view is not welcome leading to personal abuse and trolling, good god get a grip.

  • Mick Fealty

    Guys this is all fairly gentlemanly so far, but getting hung up on who people may or may not be, or even whether or not they agree with certain party leadership lines is not getting the discussion anywhere.

    Can someone (anyone) pick a ball (any ball) and run with it?

  • Mick Fealty

    Don’t do an Ireland!

  • ShayPaul

    It seems the 5 sisters have now “recieved?” tickets for a Brussels trip.

  • IJP

    Mick

    Mr Adams made himself the ball by his insulting comments.

    I cannot speak for the family, though I suspect the comments were gravely offensive to it. But I can speak for those who seek justice through an independent system, trial by independent jury, and a society not run by the mafia – i.e. a society like most in the Western World. They are not ‘being manipulated’ by anyone. ‘Labelling’ those who seek this, assigning an ‘agenda’ to them, or suggesting they are being ‘used’ – basically insulting our intelligence and mocking what we stand for – is gravely offensive and unhelpful. Yet this is not the first time he and his party colleagues have done such like – they do so regularly, including, it appears, on this forum.

    Such despicable behaviour is out of order, and so are those who support it and/or act in this way. It is not unreasonable to point out those who are guilty of such insulting behaviour, to challenge those who appear to support it (in they hope they can clarify that they do not), and to make the point that such irresponsibility is the cause of so much human suffering and offence to human dignity.

  • ShayPaul

    IJP

    Chill out, you made your point, now back to the sisters, what do you think about the trip to brussels ?

  • ShayPaul

    Or is it Strasbourg ?

  • IJP

    SP

    Always chilled, man, always chilled. Well, apart from when TypeKey’s playing up…

    Despite your kind link I’m not registered, so I don’t know anything about it. They clearly know what they’re doing, I wish them well.

  • ShayPaul

    Goes like this (breaking news) :

    McCartney sisters plan to address European Parliament

    17:51 Saturday March 19th 2005

    The McCartney sisters are planning to address the European Parliament in the next leg of their campaign to secure justice for their murdered brother Robert.

    Mr McCartney’s five sisters and his fiancee are on their way home from a visit to the United States today.

    They have vowed to continue their campaign and are hoping to finalise details of the trip to Brussels upon their return.

    Irish MEP Mairead McGuiness said today that the impact will be significant – she said Europe is a closer and stronger force than the US in relation to the Northern peace process.

  • IJP

    SP

    Go raibh maith agat.

    It’s interesting that change in NI usually comes from a combination of community+international. Our own politicians or even our colonial governors seldom have anything to do with it.

    she said Europe is a closer and stronger force than the US in relation to the Northern peace process.

    Also an interesting claim… any truth in it?

  • ShayPaul

    It should be true, but I think she overstates it.

    It certainly means a lot more to the Irish, they want to be part of the big project.

    I would say Europe is seen as a clean broker and not an English puppet shop, it is after all the “inevitable train”.

  • ShayPaul

    If we play our cards right NI could be a real hinch pin :

    USA GB EEC

    They all want to see the deal done, an economically viable region is the goal and people here would be the main benificiaries.

    As you know I believe this scenario in a United Ireland would be good for everybody (even those with the Home rule Rome rule syndrome).

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Mick is right, apologies all round as some of my posts drifted into the personal.

    The fact remains that it impossible for anyone to vouch for the bona fides of anyone connected with the media in this case. I believe that once you put yourself into the public domain you are prepared to manipulate and be manipulated by the media.
    Even those with the best intentions are not in control of events once the media is in full flow.

  • Jacko

    Pat McLarnon

    Thanks, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have no difficulty in accepting your apology and I bear you no grudge.
    I had noticed you getting a little emotional at times, but put it down to the pressure of the USA debacle and all that has gone on before it, so no hard feelings.

    By the way, any word yet on why the Derry/Londonderry provisionals put a gun to Mrs Devine’s head after she had publicly criticised Bart The Butcher?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Troll,

    I was of course offering apologies to real posters. The person (thing) (it) doesn’t really exist.

  • Clady Cowboy

    Off duty British squaddies have raped and murdered. Hence, the British Army is a criminal organisation. The British government covers up to this day the atrocities at Deepcut barracks. All Democrats must denounce this Government until they stand down this criminal group and get justice for all the victims families.

  • IJP

    Pat

    Fair enough mate.

    CC

    Talking sense makes for much more interesting and progressive debate.

  • Clady Cowboy

    That’s the logic that has passed for Politics recently

  • IJP

    CC

    True, and even not so recently. And look where it’s gotten us!

    Hope you’d agree it’s time to move on.