"Be very careful" – McGuinness

The latest twist in the McCartney family’s ongoing campaign came tonight during the hour-long Channel 4 news. Presenter Jon Snow began by reporting comments from Sinn Féin’s Martin McGuinness, in which he said the McCartney family “need to be very careful”(hat-tip to our reader Alan) and that they should not “step over that line.. into the world of party political politics[sic]” – a clear reference to the suggestion that family members are to run against SF candidates – by the end of the programme Martin McGuinness was on the line from Derry, referring to a statement he issued tonight in which he accuses the PSNI of “tailoring their investigation into the murder.. to cause maximum damage to Sinn Féin.” It’s a conspiracy theory that may play in some quarters, but others will see a party increasingly rattled and desperate.

  • TripNTurley

    Just an ignorant Irish Republican living across the pond under Dubya’s rule here, but, if SF knows or can find out who the “Rogue” little men are. Cough them up and then MMcG’s confusingly “benign/threatening” comments wouldn’t even be needed. “In house” justice does not justice make. A man got cut open and his life taken. No matter which side you are on…..a price must be paid. To defend otherwise says that what you are supporting is a system of “no law”, “no justice” and “no integrity”. To struggle in the name of “justice”, yet not to show it in every act you commit, every move you make, every wrong you try to right, does but one thing. It undermines “every” thing you do and in the end makes you exactly the person, system or government you are trying to fight……..

  • spirit-level

    Is it naive to suggest that the McCartney campaign attempt to get everyone at the bar that night to turn up to a meeting in city hall or something to discuss the matter?

  • TripNTurley

    GRIN….well, i think everyone but the “rogue little men” might be willing to do that…..LOL

  • Alan2

    “Didn’t stop them remanding and jailing people on supergrass evidence but no matter.”

    That is ever so slightly different just like the word of a Garda can get you jail for membership of the IRA.

  • TripNTurley

    I haven’t read that they are still in jail, are they? That bar just have been the size of a football field for all of them not to have seen anything…….LOL

  • DerryTerry

    Where has the suggestion arose that it is only SF that are saying the names of those responsible are knowm The McCartney’s have said they know the names of those responsible, Mr Devine obviously knows the names of those involved and by this stage surely the PSNI know the names of those involved.

    So if Mr Devine has identified those responsible, and he is clearly an eye witness, why are they not in jail?

  • spirit-level
  • TripNTurley

    If MMcG is worried about their image…….taking some initiative of his own and naming who is at fault would surely turn the tables. That way he makes the PSNI look foolish if they are waiting to take action and makes the SF look a little more reputable or should i say “integral”? If “blaming” each other is the “common thread” between the parties. Stand up and take a stance and to hell with the blame game.

  • PaddyCanuck

    The PSNI\RUC still remains a political force, and is intent in using the death of Robert McCartney to damage Sinn Fein.

  • Visioner

    “anti-Sinn Fein media”

    Henry,

    You couldn’t be talking about the Daily Ireland – could you?

    Our free press don’t believe in censorship or bias, they state true and relevant news to the people of the world.

    Sorry if the truth hurts, but you should face up to reality!

  • Visioner

    “The PSNI\RUC still remains a political force, and is intent in using the death of Robert McCartney to damage Sinn Fein.”

    Oh really? Interesting … and what world are you living in?

    I thought that the McCartney family where making an issue of it? The PSNI are just doing their job, like on many other occassions and that is to bring those responsible to justice.

    Sinn Fein have done plenty of moaning about Pat Finucane and achieving justice for his family. Bunch of hypocrites.

    They dont want justice when its them who are guilty.

    The IRA still remains a political and terrorist force after calling a “ceasefire” over 10 yrs ago. The McCartney murder proves this, as with all the other crimes IRA/SF have been involved in recently – Makro, Northern Bank, Gallagers etc, etc.

    And loyalists are just as bad, before you start accusing me of all sorts of things.

  • PaddyCanuck

    The media often present unbalanced, and slanted accounts. The McCartney case has clearly shown this. Pertinent facts are clearly omitted, and credence is given to rumours and inuendo, which do not have any facts or evidence to back them up.

    To say:

    “Our free press don’t believe in censorship or bias, they state true and relevant news to the people of the world.”

    This is clearly naive, which planet do you live on?

  • willowfield

    Pat McLarnon

    ‘If the only thing thy have is the statement of Mr Devine then they do not have enough evidence to prosecute.’

    Didn’t stop them remanding and jailing people on supergrass evidence but no matter.

    The supergrass evidence was eventually thrown out as unreliable, so it would seem your comment is irrelevant.

  • Alan2

    “So if Mr Devine has identified those responsible, and he is clearly an eye witness, why are they not in jail?”

    Erm you generally need more than one witness to arrest and convict someone as it is only there word against the other persons.

  • fair_deal

    Paddy Canuck

    In the interests of free speech could you please outline in the case of Robert McCartney’s murder which:
    “Pertinent facts are clearly omitted…”
    by the media?

  • Alan2

    *their

  • DerryTerry

    Alan2,

    Are you saying therefore that in the absence of confessions by the murderers a murder conviction is highly unlikely?

    If so how do we pursue justice for the McCartney family if the criminal justice system looks to be incapable of delivering convictions, which is clearly what they want and deserve?

  • spirit-level

    If MMg is so concerned about the way in which the PSNI conduct business, why does he not, as an elected MP for NornIron choose to sit on the policing board. Otherwise his comments are just sheer hypocracy.
    Care to answer PC?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Dec,

    you’re spoiling the fun with the other posters. It’s great to have them come on line and waffle their little heads off as if they were there on thr night.
    Don’t be telling the mob too much they’ll only go away..

  • DerryTerry

    Spirit Level,

    Maybe its because he’s concerned about the way that the PSNI conduct business that he won’t endorse them at this stage.

    Of course if you are telling us that those on the Policing Board have the power to sort out the PSNI then maybe they’ll demand to know if Mr Devine has made a statement naming names, if anyone else has done likewise and if it is common practice in a murder investigation to tell one of the chief suspects “You’re all right we’ll get back to you later”, at the same time as we’re led to believe they told a potential witness she was leaving the scene of a crime without taking her name?

    Then again, if you’re happy with the way the PSNI are conducting this investigation you do right to tell McGuinness to keep his criticisms to himself, even if those criticisms are becoming increasingly common.

  • PaddyCanuck

    They did not report the fact that Jock Davison had been stabbed and left the scene to go to hospital, until the IRA released a statement saying such, and until Davisons interview with Daily Ireland.

    They created the perception that the murder happened inside or just outside the bar, and that up to 20 people were involved, this was not the case, and the media were aware that the murder involved a small number of people (4), some distance from the bar.

    They did not report that Brendan Devine was a hood with past form as a knifeman until the last couple of days.

    They did not and have not reported the McCormick connection posted by Dec.

    They omit to inform people that the taxi driver that drove groogan was the partner of Catherine McCartney.

    All relevant facts that they omitt, in their haste to paint a picture of the incident, which portrays the republican movement in the most negative light.

    The fact is that this incident was not as simple as it has been portrayed. It was an ugly incident and the murder of Robert McCartney was brutal and should never have happened. But the reporting of the incident has been selective, and deliberatley so.

    The abscence of any critique of the PSNI\RUC investigation of this crime, is also indicative of the partisan nature of the media, which for many years refused to countenance the notion that collusion existed, whilst they portray as fact the least bit of inuendo about the IRA.

    And as I have posted on many occassions, I support the McCartney familys quest for justice, and I deplore the horrible murder of Robert.

    Unfortunatley, the quest for justice is becoming mutated into a witchhunt against Sinn Fein.

  • JD

    1. Have any reporters actually looked into SF claims that names have been given to PSNI/RUC? It’s an important issue, and I can’t believe this has not been subjected to proper scrutiny.

    2. If SF has not given the names, then they are reneging on their recent statements that seemed in good faith. This would be a disgrace, and I believe they deserve to lose support.

    3. If SF has given the names, and there has been no action, then it becomes very hard to see how the PSNI/RUC is not being used in a political manner. This would be a return to the bad old days.

    I also find it hard to figure the media out on this one. There seems to be a disconnection between the media feeding frenzy and those who vote for SF as evidenced by the Meath election. If, as seems to be the case, the number of SF voters has gone up, then I’m not sure what’s being gained. It would seem to actually be counterproductive if the media seeks to harm SF.

    Finally, can anyone tell me the purpose of the McCartney sisters handing over a dossier on the murder to Bush? What do they honestly expect him to do? It would seem to serve no other purpose than to create political damage.

  • spirit-level

    DT PC Fair points, if I may press you though:
    How would you like to see policing evolve in nationalist areas?
    Would you accept the republic’s gardai being more involved?
    Presumably you do not wish the IRA to be the unaccountable police force in these areas?
    How are things ever going to move forward in the long-run if the intimidation continues?
    By that I mean if both SF and the IRA have expressly said that people are not to be afraid of coming forward, why is it that not one person has been able to feel safe enough to do so?
    RSVP

  • PaddyCanuck

    SL – Many people have come forward, apparently too many fo the RUC, the are turning suspects away… Are they looking for their overtime back?

    I want a non sectarian representative, and non political police service.

  • paddyjoe

    Surely George Bush is not the right person for the Mc Cartney sisters to see. I reckon his only advice will be the same as the IRA -shoot the ones who done it!. After all when he was governor of Texas did’nt he use his “eye for an eye” policy on death row prisoners

  • alex s

    Any jury considering his evidence might dismiss it on the grounds of his (Devine) worthless character.

    Posted by: Pat Mc Larnon

    Pat who are you to judge a persons worth, certainly those that cut his throat thought him worthless

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ales s,

    I stated that other events MIGHT count against his evidence.

    Those events are the fact that in Dec 2003 he was charged with attempted murder using a knife. He was subsequently granted bail (unusual for such a serious offence). Less than three months later he staged an armed robbery on a post office van. He was charged and yet again granted bail (more unusual considering he was already out on bail).

    Last month he pleaded guilty to the armed robbery charge and is now awaiting sentence. Today he was further remanded on bail on the knife wounding charge (it seems the charge of attempted murder has been dropped to malicious wounding and grevious bodily harm).

    It MAY be that come the time of any Mc Cartney trial he will have further convictions. So as I was assessing any jury might decide he is a person of pretty worthless character.

    In that scenario it is a fair assumption to make.

  • Davros

    No comments from the usual about the assurances given to Frank Hegarty ?

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Paddy, I’m a bit unclear about where the murder took place. McCartney’s body was found on Cromac Street which as you say is not outside the bar but a short distance from it. The trouble I’m having with that is that Cromac Street is quite a busy main road (4 lanes) and there would have been a fair amount of traffic at the time the murder took place. I don’t think anyone would try to commit a murder out in the open like that. It’s a main route into the city centre and the police or anyone else could have driven past.

    I’d thought that the murder had taken place in the side street (I can’t remember the name of it right now but it runs between the pub and St George’s Market – irritatingly it is not marked on any o the online maps) beside the pub’s service entrance.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Pat

    Are you trying to label Devine as a criminal or a tout, because the effect you’re trying to create is just the same? Many people seem to know what Devine is like already, but it makes you wonder why an IRA leader’s brother was hanging out with him.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Davros,

    I know nothing about Frank Hegarty, other than the usual gossip, and inuendo.

    What else do you know? If you have any information, or evidence I suggest you go to whoever you think are the appropriate authorities.

    In other words, put up or shut up….

  • Frankie

    Belfast Gonzo
    Of course Devine is a Criminal thats common knowledge & a knife wielding one at that & may be on the road to becoming a Tout … for all we know , considering the charges, bail applications etc …

    but it makes you wonder why an IRA leader’s brother was hanging out with him.

    Who is this IRA leader you are speaking of ?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    I meant ‘member’, as in McCormick, rather than ‘leader’.

    Of course, the poster above could be wrong about his family relations, so I welcome correction or clarification.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Whats your point Gonzo?

    Are you suggesting the media should “go after” Republicans because of what their relations do or who they are?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    No, not at all. You seem to have formed a habit out of misinterpreting my comments.

  • PaddyCanuck

    I did not misinterpret anything, I asked you a question.

    You said it “makes you wonder”, I was trying to figure out what your point was. Maybe you should make the point you were wondering about, then people would not have to guess…

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Gonzo,

    i’m not labelling Devine anything ,it was his own behaviour and the view of the court that labelled him a criminal.
    Let’s just say this is the dance of the seven veils and its only just started.

  • Davros

    P-C: Frank Hegarty received the same sort of assurances that all would be well from the RM as are being given to any witnesses who choose to co-operate with the Police in the McCartney Murder.
    He was slaughtered.

  • Henry94

    If one of the McCartney sisters did run in Belfast would the unionists and the SDLP step aside.

    Would Unionists seek an assurance that she would take the oath to the queen if elected?

    They would hardly step aside in seats they could win so we would really be talking about West Belfast only.

    I think she would lose in a landslide but having thrown shapes about running failing to run may do the damage anyway so it’s a tough call for them.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Pat

    You seem to keep hinting at something, but I know you really want to tell me.

  • fair_deal

    Paddy Canuck

    Thanks for the response apologies for the tardiness of my reply.

    As to your reply from reading a range of the press since the incident I was aware of:
    1. The stabbing of a man and him going to the hospital i heard a while back – I learnt his name in the Daily Ireland article.
    2. As regards the numbers the media has reported both the familiy’s and police’s claims about how many were involved ie 20 involved. They also reported the results of the IRA investigation ie 4 involved in the attack.
    3. Brendan Devine’s past – I read about his past in the media.
    4. Didn’t know about the connection between Devine and McCormick until today.
    5. Picked up from the media about the taxi drivers relationship with the McCartney family.

    I accept that not all media outlets covered all of the above but some did (beyond the republican minded press). On the bit I didn’t know, as far as I’m concerned Brendan Devine can be the lowest of the low but its is irrelevant to the murder of Robert McCartney.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Gonzo, lol

  • paddyjoe

    Why do people talk about a jury trial? if anyone does end up on trial for the death of R Mc Cartney. they will in up in front of one judge(its called a Diplock court) sitting without a jury and believe me as one who passed through a Diplock court, lack of evidence never stopped a judge covicting people.

  • Malachy

    Raymond Kelly, Ian Bolger and Anthony O’Leary were today found guilty by a jury of violent disorder in connection with a row in a pub in New Ross nearly two years ago after which Mr Forsmark, a Swedish street vendor, died. Judge Pat McCartan tonight gave each a three-year suspended jail sentence.

    I’m still wondering where is the righteous indignation about this pub brawl in the south of ireland ? This one went throught the justice system and the murderers got off.

    How many people die each year in Ireland in pub brawls and why has this one been allowed to highjack the peace process ?

  • willowfield

    paddyjoe

    Why do people talk about a jury trial? if anyone does end up on trial for the death of R Mc Cartney. they will in up in front of one judge(its called a Diplock court) sitting without a jury

    How do you know?

    and believe me as one who passed through a Diplock court, lack of evidence never stopped a judge covicting people.

    Really? That’s interesting. Tell us about it. How is the appeal going?

    Incidentally, did you ever stop to think why Diplock courts had to be introduced?

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    Do you have information that the McCartneys are planning to stand for Parliament in West Belfast?

    Surely, if they do stand, it’ll be in Pottinger for Belfast City Council?

  • JD

    How many people die each year in Ireland in pub brawls and why has this one been allowed to highjack the peace process ?

    At the risk of stealing Sybil Fawlty’s specialised subject, I’d say what makes the McCartney killing different is the parties alledged to be involved.

    That said, it’s also somewhat humorous to see a middle-class media and swathes of the middle-class public bending over to listen to people that wouldn’t want to live next door to. If the McCartney’s were from Dublin, I doubt they’d be in the White House.

    I wholehearetedly agree with your remarks on the disgraceful lack of concern at the circumstances surrounding the killing of Forsmark. It does smack of the “Ah sure, he was only a foreigner.” His misfortune is that he can’t easily be converted into political capital.

  • IJP

    How many people die each year in Ireland in pub brawls and why has this one been allowed to highjack the peace process ?

    Because it is patently obvious that one of the parties to the ‘peace process’ isn’t committed to ‘peace’!

    In the Republic of Ireland, or any other civilized society, people provide evidence to the police who charge the accused who are tried before a court. The police is accountable to a regulator or, at least, to a justice ministry accountable to the electorate.

    In Short Strand, people are told to shut up, evidence is deliberately ‘cleaned up’, and those guilty are shot by people accountable to no one without trial or appeal.

    All of which you knew rightly, of course…

  • Malachy

    If the McCartney’s were from Dublin, I doubt they’d be in the White House.

    If they were from Washington DC, they would not be allowed into the White House along with the 300 or so families of murder victims in DC every year.