Bertie doesn't know make-up of IRA Council

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said in Meath today that he doesn’t know the make-up of the IRA army council, directly contradicting his Justice Minister Michael McDowell and Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern who both have claimed that Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams and Martin Ferris are members. Your guess as to why he said this is as good as mine.

  • Henry94

    Your guess as to why he said this is as good as mine.

    Because it’s true?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    I find it impossible to believe that if the Minister for Justice had such information he would not share it with the Taoiseach, especialy during times like this.

    So we have a scenario that one of them is lying and personally i find it difficult to make the call.

    The person who was arrested burning large bundles of sterling and who some other idiotic poster claimed also had AK rounds and cocaine has been released. Yet another lie bites the dust.

    So the latest update is that out of all those arrested only one alleged dissident has been charged and of course stolen money was found on a facility used almost exclusively by the police in N ireland.

    Quite a few posters to this site must be pretty embarrasssed right now.

  • George

    Henry,
    it may well be true but truth is hardly a reason for a politician to make a statement.

    I don’t understand why he would contradict McDowell and, more interestingly, his party colleague and Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern.

    What has he to gain from this?

  • barney

    Dermot Ahern was invited by RTE to back up McDowell’s claim but he carefully avoided giving a straight answer. So far as I know the only cabinet member supporting Mr McDowell is the bould Mary Harney. Martin McGuinness pointed out that the PD atttacks on SF took off after Dermot Ahern’s suggestion that SF might make suitable coalition partners some day. There is nothing so hysterical as a junior coalition partner scorned, it would seem.

  • peteb

    Hmmm.. Just a minor point.. but Bertie saying he doesn’t know who the members of the IRA army council are doesn’t, strictly speaking, “directly contradict” what Michael McDowell said.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    peteb,

    it”s not a point at all never mean minor, are you seriously trying to flog the line that at cabinet meetings Mc Dowell wouldn’t share this type of information with Ahern.

  • peteb

    Pat

    You’d have to ask Bertie whether Michael McDowell shared the information.. I’m simply pointing out that Bertie’s public statement does not contradict what Michael McDowell said.. that’s all.

  • George

    I accept your arguement Peteb in that Bertie may theoretically only know five of the army council members but would you not agree that what he said seems to undermine McDowell?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    peteb,

    if the information doesn’t exisrt then you can’t contradict it? If it did then it is inconceivable that he would not have shared it.

    One of them is a liar.

  • peteb

    I’d suspect, George, that actually Bertie probably does know exactly who the members of the IRA army council are but that he’s not prepared to state that publicly.. yet. That seems, to me, to be the most obvious reading of those statements.

  • Davros

    I agree with pete. Plausible deniability.

  • Jacko

    “and who some other idiotic poster claimed also had AK rounds and cocaine has been released.”

    Nice one Pat.
    This idiotic poster read it in the Irish Times and posted it. You asked where it could be found; I directed you to the story and you thanked me for doing that. You then launched into some discourse about how the cocaine possession would play worse within nationalism than the bank raid or murder of Robert McCartney.
    I have since read in 3 other papers today that cocaine was found and AK47 rounds were found.

    Now I know you can’t believe all that is written, but since I wasn’t at the scene it was the best I had to go on.

    As for the releasing of this guy, were you actually there to see him out of the cells – or are you like me and have to rely on the media reports?

  • Jacko

    Pat

    Incidentally, do you believe that Gerry Adams wasn’t in the IRA or do you think he is a liar?
    Do you believe, as Adams has claimed, that he was in Long Kesh when Jean McConville was disappeared or that, as records clearly show he wasn’t, that he is a liar?
    Do you think that any of us with an ounce of sense can believe anything that Adams says without checking first?

    Just to pre-empt your answers – and you have the cheek to call somebody else an idiot.

  • Malachy

    Is this was not a typical political game in Ireland. In the US it would be commonly used – let your subordinates/puppies make ridiculous statements and risk their political careers – while you relax and pretend you “don’t have the information” or some such at the moment.

    A prime example would be W pushing Colin Powell in front of the UN with the Iraq war bullsh*t.

    The other angle would be reliable but unofficial sources providing information to the media. (What I think was once called propoganda)

    I used to think the public in Ireland weren’t as gullible as in the US – but following this whole bank robbery etc. story I am beginning to wonder.

  • Jacko

    Malachy
    Of course you’re right – the crash test dummy thing.

    But what you’re witnessing here is actually more subtle than that. By starting a meaningless discussion around whether Bertie is a liar or McDowell it shifts the attention away from the real issues. The mess the provos are in, and the fact that Adams, McGuinness et al have been lying through their teeth for years.

  • Ringo

    Pat –

    I wouldn’t be jumping up and down with glee because the were all released without charge.
    Lack of charges doesn’t equate to lack of evidence. In fact I think it is very telling that they haven’t pressed charges. They obviously don’t feel under the slightest bit of pressure to do so yet, despite the massive operation they’ve undertaken. This is white collar crime, not the stuff republicans are usually picked up for, and the DPP will take their time (other than the RIRA man all the other allegations are white collar.
    ).

    The only real question is whether it is a case of the Guards engaging in a spectacular of their own, or if the decision to close down the IRA has been taken by the government. If they have then this is going to make the tribunals look hasty.

    As regards McDowell & Bertie – its good cop, bad cop.

  • Henry94

    ringo

    If burning stolen money and posession of cocaine and AK47 rounds is white collor crime then the world of accountancy must be more interesting than I’ve been led to believe.

  • Keith M

    I fully appreciate thar IRA/SF supporters need to clutch at whatever crumbs of comfort they can get at the moment, but there is simply no story here. McDowell is the Minister for Justice and has responsibility for the Gardai, and therefore only has to pick up the phone and receive the latest police intelligence. Bertie can do the same, if and when he chooses.

    Even if Bertie also knows that Adams, McGuinness and Ferris are on the “army council”, it isn’t the same as knowing it’s entire make-up. I know that Damian Duff is a member of the Chelsea football team, but I’m damned if I know their line-up.

  • Jacko

    I see Pat has yet to respond to the questions at my 8-16pm post. Maybe away seeking advice or just finds them unanswerable.

  • Occasional Commenter

    Maybe Bertie thinks he knows some of the members, but not all of the members, of the Council. This could explain Bertie’s comments.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Jacko,

    sorry for not responding to your post sooner as I have a life to lead. Have you evidence that Adams was lying? I like to deal in facts you see. On the cocaine story I took you at your word, something i’ll be loathe to do in future. I assume possession of cocaine and ammo would lead to immediate charging.

    Ringo,

    nobody is jumping up in down, well maybe some of the clowns who must be jumping up and down with embarrassment. Like the line about no charges, sure don’t we know they’re all guilty anyway.

  • Henry94

    I’d imagine that if a Minister for Justice asked the Garda top brass for the names of the Army Council the phrase “we’re not sure” would be an unacceptable and career threatening answer.

    So you’d have to come up with seven names. That doesn’t mean they’re right and if it is disputed by the people involved the burden of proof lies, as always, with those making the allegation.

  • Richard Delevan

    Labour’s Joe Costello could be doing it in part for mischief, but he’s demanding that Adams, McGuinness & Co be arrested following McDowell’s comments — and Bertie’s warm embrace of ambiguity.

  • Jacko

    Pat Mc Larnon

    You have a life to lead? I wonder what sort of life it must be, you’ve been patrolling this site for days on end.

    As for Gerry not lying about the IRA.
    So he wore the beret in the infamous photograph just for a laugh? He was taken from Long Kesh to England to negotiate on behalf of the IRA even though he was never a member? Catch yourself on.

    You took me at my word and won’t do so again?
    So you looked at the Irish Times and there was no report of cocaine and AK47 rounds being found then?
    I and all the other readers must be seeing things.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Richard,

    the relevance to this story is that either Ahern or Mc Dowell is lying on this matter. Whether Ahern is being deliberately ambiguous or not is irrelevant, he has quite publicly denied he has the same information as Mc Dowell.
    Given that Adams, Mc Guinness and Ferris have been at numerous meeting with both of these men, obviously talking about the Peace Process and by default the IRA, it is inconceivable that Mc Dowell (if in possession of that information) did not share this with the Taoiseach.

    Also in your own piece you quote the Defence Minister Willie Walsh writing in the Sindo, shouldn’t that have been Willie O Dea.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Jacko,

    the certainty of the smoking gun around Tom Hanlon seems to have dissipated and you and others are reduced to the calls of ‘sure we know they’re guilty anyhow’. To think it was looking all so promising on Thursday.

  • Jacko

    Deal with the points, you read the reports on cocaine and ammo as well as I did.

    How can you say Adams hasn’t shown himself to be a liar?

    For you and the like, it doesn’t matter if Adams, McGuinness et al are liars, it doesn’t matter about the cocaine and ammunition, it doesn’t matter about Robert McCartney, it doesn’t matter about the provisional movement being little more than a green mafia – as long as it can plausibly be denied. The problem for you and yours is that the denials are becoming more implausible by the day.
    You have sunk to the point of claiming it to be a giant conspiracy against the provisionals, everybody is lying except you – wise up.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘For you and the like,’

    ‘The problem for you and yours’

    ‘You have sunk to the point of claiming it to be a giant conspiracy against the provisionals, everybody is lying except you – wise up.’

    I haven’t claimed anything at all, i’ll not bother asking you to back it up as you would be incapable.
    I feel by the tenor of your argument that you are slipping into personal abuse territory and I wont allow you to drag me down there with you.

    Please remember that points of view or analysis are there to be questioned. Now, as is apparent, of late a certain lynch mob mentality has built up among the media and to an extent contributors to this site. But while most are happy to run with the mob surely others have a right to be more questioning and seek the truth.
    If anything it is the people who adopted the questiioning attitude who appear to have been vindicated.
    People like yourself have been wrong footed in the last 24 hrs or so and while generating a lot of heat have failed to offer much light on any of the topics to hand.

    I’m afraid I don’t subscribe to the nod and wink mentality so beloved of many and on that we’ll just have to agree to differ.

    But while angry at the turn of events please try to stay calm and polite.

  • Richard Delevan

    Pat – thanks for catching that error. Early morning brain missing subeditorial help. Finally, at least something that we can agree on!
    corrected here

    Gerry Ryan on 2FM this am encouraging Gerry Adams to sue the Evening Herald for libel following it’s “LIAR!” splash with Adams’ pic on Friday.

  • Richard Delevan

    May I suggest everyone here take a deep breath, take a 5 minute break from this, and have a long look at the contents of Paris Hilton’s hacked mobile phone book, including pics from her camera phone. Story and link here.

  • Richard Delevan

    May I suggest everyone here take a deep breath, take a 5 minute break from this, and have a long look at the contents of Paris Hilton’s hacked mobile phone book, including pics from her camera phone. Story and link here.

  • Ringo

    Henry94-
    didn’t know about the hokey cokey. You’d still be released – they don’t keep you in custody for possession or intent to supply anyway. You have a point about the ammo though. Not sure what the story is with that.

    As for the Magnificent Seven – this is a really, really small place. I have no doubt the security forces and the IRA members know who they are.

    Pat –

    If anything it is the people who adopted the questiioning attitude who appear to have been vindicated.

    You’d make Alastair Campbell blush. A brilliant piece of spin but unfortuately the hole that you’re in is too big for it to work. If ANYTHING, the people who claimed all along that the IRA were responsible for the bank job and other criminality who appear to have been vindicated. It will take the mother of all conspiracy theories to get Sinn Fein out of this one. but I’m certain when the top brass come up with the answer you’ll let us all know.

  • DerryTerry

    Ringo,

    If ANYTHING, the people who claimed all along that the IRA were responsible for the bank job and other criminality who appear to have been vindicated.

    How? There is still no evidence of who robbed the Northern bank and we are left with the prospect that the claims that Republicans robbed the bank are based on “intelligence” sources that are good enough to say who robbed the bank after the event but were useless prior to the event. And just for entertainment, the “intelligence” is so good it didn’t know 50k was going to Newforge but after the event it knows who left it there and why.

    Of course, it may well be that you agree with Master McDowell that it no longer matters who robbed the Northern bank, but seeing as three weeks ago it was the most important matter befoew the IRish people, I am still waiting for te evidence to be produced.

  • Jacko

    Pat Mc Larnon

    Stop the evasion tactics and answer the points.
    Why was Adams taken from Long Kesh and helicoptered to England for talks on behalf of the IRA if, as he claims, he has never been in it in it?
    Why was he wearing a beret and part of the guard of honour at an IRA funeral if he has never beeen in the IRA?

    Deal with the points, Pat.
    Either he is a liar or he has never been in the IRA.
    Which is it?
    Why are newspapers still claiming today that in the house where the money burning guy was lifted ammo and cocaine were found if, as you claim, some idiot on this site just made it up?

  • willowfield

    Further to Jacko’s points, if Adams wasn’t in PIRA, why was he interned in the PIRA compound in the first place? And why was he imprisoned in the PIRA wing of the Maze Prison?

  • Jacko

    Either, Pat is away for another consultation or there aren’t any Pat McLarnons available at the moment.

  • DerryTerry

    Jacko and WF,

    IMO Adams was in the IRA. Having said that and looked out the window I’m confident the planet is still spinning and the universe has not collapsed. So whats your point?

    Because i believe this does it mean Republicans robbed the Northern bank? No.

    Does this mean that those arrested and released in Cork and elsewhere were involved in it? No.

    So all the arrests, all the investigating that is being conducted by the PSNI and the Guards, all the “intelligence” at their disposal, all the spin in the media and still not a shred of evidence as to who robbed the Northern bank.

    To borrow a phrase from Gerry Maguire, “Show us the Northern money”, or failing that, “Show us some evidence.”

    In the absence of either I am still left with a choice between Republicans who have told lies and the PSNI and Guards, who have told lies. Faced with that choice we all take our pick.

  • ricardo

    In the same way that studies have shown the number of IRA punishment beatings decreasing during elections, someone should commission a study on the number of posts by Pat McLarnon during times of crisis for Sinn Fein and the IRA.

    ‘Methinks the lady (no offence pat ;)) doth protest too much’

  • Ringo

    Just to get it straight Derry Terry, are you still of the opinion that the IRA didn’t rob the bank?

    If Noel Conroy tells us in the next day or two that they have definitely linked money seized in the raids in Cork or elsewhere in the Republic to the bank job will that do you? I think not.

    There is still no evidence of who robbed the Northern bank and we are left with the prospect that the claims that Republicans robbed the bank are based on “intelligence” sources that are good enough to say who robbed the bank after the event but were useless prior to the event.

    Translated from gullible republican speak – ‘If they didn’t know what was going to happen then how do they know what happened?’

    Do you really believe this nonsense or do you think that there are enough fools out there to believe it so you’re spreading the word?

    If this is the sort of muck you have to fill your head with to rationalise this situation you are seriously detached from reality. Apply this to any crime and see how ridiculous it is. Their intelligence doesn’t seem so bad when they are able to pick up about €4m in the last few days does it?

    And just for entertainment, the “intelligence” is so good it didn’t know 50k was going to Newforge but after the event it knows who left it there and why.

    The newforge scam was clearly aimed at open minded people like yourself. It will be treated with complete skepticism by everyone else in the context of the overall situation.

    Of course, it may well be that you agree with Master McDowell that it no longer matters who robbed the Northern bank, but seeing as three weeks ago it was the most important matter befoew the IRish people, I am still waiting for te evidence to be produced.

    And again, big problems with reality or English here. It is clear that the infrastructure that has been uncovered wasn’t put in place for the proceeds of the bank job – the bank money is only the current installment.

    And if you really need it a nice simple alternative to your fantasy try this:

    The Guards have obviously been watching this IRA operation for a while. Then all of a sudden they see vast sums of money coming on stream. Where did it come from? Well unless there were other one off multi-million pound operations that miraculously have gone undetected, it came from the northern job which took place not oong before. Which explains why McDowell, and even more damningly, Bertie Ahern knew with far more certainty than the British government that it was the IRA. Remember all the questions about where was Bertie getting his information? Well now we know.

    It is now clear that there is nothing that will convince the ‘say it ain’t so, Gerry’ republicans that it is in anyway related to their ‘noble cause’ – regardless of what evidence is brought forward unless the bearded one gives it the ok. If I want to debate with people about possible alternative realities I’ll join the Trekkies. I had hoped that once evidence of IRA criminality had been uncovered that it might move the debate to where it is, not where the Denialers believe it to be. And in fairness some, like Henry94 did address the relevations in an honourable way without compromising their own republicanism.

    But you obviously haven’t. Pat flirted with the idea but then decided that he can prolong the charade for a bit longer. I suspect he actually enjoys it. You see, if you look at it this way – the IRA is involved in massive criminal activity similar to the mafia or other organised crime groups elsewhere, and it robbed the northern bank – then everything is a lot simpler than any of the alternatives. And the alternatives are incredible and are offered only by republicans.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Jacko,

    calm down I have other things to do and when I have time I try to answer the points put to me.

    ‘Why was Adams taken from Long Kesh and helicoptered to England for talks on behalf of the IRA if, as he claims, he has never been in it in it?’

    How could I possibly know that. Was he representing those hundreds of prisoners who were being detained without trial by the British Government? As far as I am aware very few of them were charged with anything.

    ‘Why was he wearing a beret and part of the guard of honour at an IRA funeral if he has never beeen in the IRA?’

    The funeral you refer to was I believe Jimmy Steel my grandmothers milkman, an old time republican, Adams doesn’t deny being a republican. Wearing a beret doesn’t constitute a crime, merely a republican salute.
    By the same yardstick Paisley, Robinson, Dodds et al were Military Policemen.

    As for the papers, while originally accepting your word I did not check the reference you gave, the Irish Times, I believe. I never stated some idiot made it up. Begs the question why you are so sensitive when the word is mentioned?

    If cocaine and ammo were found I find it unbelievable that the person arrested would not have been charged instead of released. Unless cocaine and ammo were found that had no part in the inquiry.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ringo,

    ‘If Noel Conroy tells us in the next day or two that they have definitely linked money seized in the raids in Cork or elsewhere in the Republic to the bank job will that do you? I think not.’

    That will simply prove that money stolen from the Northern has ended up in Cork. Is there any connection between the money and even a very minor republican. Think not.
    The PSNI have confirmed the money at their club was stolen from the Northern, does that automatically prove PSNI involvement in the robbery?

    On Thursday the lynch mob was in full flow. Even the normally staid Michael Mc Gimpsey stated that the arrest of Tom Hanlon connected SF with the Northern job. But Tom is at home now with his feet up having a cup of tea. No connection has been proven to anything.
    The poor old lynch mob are all standing around with a rope but no poor sap to string up as the saps were released one by one.

    Keep repeating the Northern mantra Ringo, it is hilarious from where I sit.
    BTW you are right I do enjoy it as it is so flippin easy.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ricardo,

    I don’t run or hide, there are a good few who were in full flow since Thursday who have mysteriously vanished lol.

  • DerryTerry

    Ringo,

    Whilst i appreciate your endearing comments and compliments we are still left with an absence of evidence at this time.

    If evidence is produced then obviously the ball park changes.

    Do you accept that in the absence of evidence we are left with an appalling vista in which the judicial system and media have been exploited to advance a political agenda?

    I’m prepared to wait for evidence before making a judgement, why is this so difficult for you, or is the story/impact/media frenzy more important than evidence or truth?

    As to the “muck” I fill my head with the difficulty I, and many, many people have in accepting the infallability of “intelligence” is that Iraq had no WMD, the Birmingham 6 and Guilford 4, Maguire 7 and god knows many more were innocent and the Guards in Donegal occuppied themselves by making and planting bombs to secure their own promotions.

    So lets just have a look at the facts.

    The Northern Bank was robbed and there is absolutely no evidence as to who carried it out. Opinions have been offered by people who have in the past been proven to have gotten it wrong. Me, i’ll wait for the evidence.

    A massive money laundering operation has been uncovered in Munster and Leinster. Massive amounts of cash have been uncovered. The media has nearly passed out with excitement and speculation linking this to Republicans and the Northern Bank. Of all those arrested one person has been charged with membership of the RIRA. Everyone else has been released without charge. I think I’ll await developments before rushing to hang.

    As to the existence of a money laundering infrastructure that was already in existence i agree with you. The problem at the moment for your hypothesis is that the Republican connection on which it rests has not been proven. Think I’ll await developments.

  • Allrightthinkingpeople

    Good comment on all of this in Daily Ireland, which, I think, kinda sums up both the bewilderment and the instinctual, yet tenuous, attempts of republicans (like myself) to find some sense in all of this. Daily Ireland

  • DerryTerry

    Breaking news, 1.15pm

    Radio Foyle have confirmed that more than two dozen caravans have been raided by the Guards over the weekend in Donegal in an operation resulting from intelligence. The were looking for stolen bank notes, nothing found.

    SF MLA Raymond McCartney claiming 36 caravans raided (every caravan there).

  • Alan

    *The Northern Bank was robbed and there is absolutely no evidence as to who carried it out. Opinions have been offered by people who have in the past been proven to have gotten it wrong. Me, i’ll wait for the evidence.*

    Yes, you’re right to wait on the evidence, as will I. In the interim, however, one thing has convinved me that the IRA was responsible for the robbery and that was the clearly political nature of the find at Newforge. If the guys who pulled off the robbery were ODC’s they would have had no reason to risk their freedom to plant evidence in the club toilets.

  • DerryTerry

    Alan,

    If you’re waiting for the evidence then you should wait for the evidence.To allow yourself to be convinced “in the interim” throws out the waiting to be convinced bit.

    As to Newforge I don’t know who left the 50k but i would suggest that it could just as easily be a two fingered salute to the investigative powers of the PSNI’s top 45 detectives, as much as being politically motivated.

    Me, I’m sticking to my original point, show us the evidence.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    The defence of the Rafia by narrow-minded republicans, (amely McLarnon and Londonderry Terry), is in all honesty, nothing short of vomit-inducing, so if I don’t post for a while, you’ll know I’m in the bathroom throwing up!

  • Concerned Loyalist

    The defence of the Rafia by narrow-minded republicans, (namely McLarnon and Londonderry Terry), is in all honesty, nothing short of vomit-inducing, so if I don’t post for a while, you’ll know I’m in the bathroom throwing up!

    Ball not man please. A.U.

  • Jimmy Sands

    “Wearing a beret doesn’t constitute a crime, merely a republican salute. “

    Frank Spencer impressions were also very big at the time.

    “Quite a few posters to this site must be pretty embarrasssed right now.”

    You’d think so wouldn’t you?

  • Jacko

    I see at least we have the semi-literate Pat McLarnon on duty today.

    The original point was, as Pat no1 should have pointed out to you, that either Adams was in the IRA or he is a liar.
    Anyone who genuinely thinks he isn’t a liar is an idiot.

    And, as DerryTerry illustrates with almost every post, it’s not the fleecing of drug dealers, butchering of drinkers, raping of women, robbing of banks, shooting dead of Garda officers, flogging of dodgy cds, vodka and fuel by provisional volunteers that vexes anyone in the provisional movement, it is them getting caught at it that causes them concern. Hence the playground chant at every turn of “prove it, prove it”.

    I’m sure Scap and the boys weren’t so fussy about little incidental things like having solid proof when they were skinning people in Armagh.

    Jacko – Please play the ball and not the man A.U.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Jacko,

    into the personal abuse yet again, game set and match I think.

  • Alan

    DT,

    I await the evidence and I remain convinced. My conviction may not yet have benefited from forensics, and we may never see the guilty punished, but it’s as valuable as your own conviction – in the circumstances.

    And no ODC is going to risk their freedom just to give the PSNI the fingers, get real : the politically committed on the other hand . . .

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    CL,

    a timely and rivetting contribution from unionism that should perhaps be adopted as a motto by unionist posters.

  • Ringo

    Allrightthinkingpeople

    – only those completely missing the point (or more to the point), studiously avoiding the point would contend that an operation that has uncovered about €4m in the space of a couple of days is anything other than a huge success. An article starting from that point has really only one direction to go – up its own arse, which it does with panache, style and a bit of va-va-voom.

    (btw – is Daily Ireland the only board that Phil Flynn figured that didn’t require the same level of integrity as the others?)

    DerryTerry –

    This nonsense of ‘lets not rush to judgement’ is being spouted by people who have no intention of judging anything – they’ve got a position – republicans didn’t do it and they’ll defend that position for as long as is required.

    I’m heartened to hear that if the Garda Commissioner declares that the money in Cork was stolen in the raid in December that the ball park changes. What that means I don’t know but I get the impression that it may not be good enough for you. And off we go again…..

    I’m also glad that you conceed that the guards have discovered a massive money laundering operation going on in the republic and that it wasn’t all made up (it has been suggested on slugger…).

    I’m prepared to wait for evidence before making a judgement, why is this so difficult for you, or is the story/impact/media frenzy more important than evidence or truth??

    Maybe it is because I’m actually living down here and I know bullshit from the Guards when I see it.
    And this isn’t bullshit. And when Bertie came out and said it was the IRA, I know he’s not bullshitting either. The place isn’t the hall of mirrors that the north is. You can’t afford to be wrong about these things because you don’t have your own legion of Pat McLarnons behind you to defend you to the hilt.

    Pat –

    No amount of evidence will satisfy you and it isn’t necessary to do so.

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    I know bullshit from the Guards when I see it.

    Now that is bullshit. If the Gardai had evidence linking SF to the cash nobody would need a bullshit detector. If they don’t then a bullshit detector will not do instead.

  • J Kelly

    If the guys who pulled off the robbery were ODC’s they would have had no reason to risk their freedom to plant evidence in the club toilets. Unless they use the club on a daily basis and were better to hide the loot. Maybe some one should start searching a bit closer to home.

  • Ringo

    Now that is bullshit. If the Gardai had evidence linking SF to the cash nobody would need a bullshit detector. If they don’t then a bullshit detector will not do instead.

    easy now, Henry – the Guards never mentioned anything about investigating Sinn Fein – this was an investigation targeting the Provisional IRA. Are the Guards bullshitting when they say they have uncovered a major money laundering operation run by the IRA?

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    I believe that the arrest of Tom Hanlon was bullshit for a start. So they are capable of it. That’s why I believe we should proceed on the basis of fact and evidence rather than spin and hysteria.

  • Jacko

    “game set and match I think.”
    Pat Mc Larnon

    I don’t think so. Neither you nor any of the others that use that post name have answered a single point made.

    As I said earlier, it’s not the fleecing of drug dealers, butchering of drinkers, raping of women, robbing of banks, shooting dead of Garda officers, flogging of dodgy cds, vodka and fuel by provisional volunteers that vexes anyone in the provisional movement, it is them getting caught at it that causes the concern. Hence the playground chant at every turn of “prove it, prove it”.

    I’m sure Scap and the boys weren’t so fussy about little incidental things like having solid proof when they were skinning people in Armagh.

    Also, care to address the latest little misadventure of the Sinn Fein election workers in the south – talk about “capturing” the voter.

  • Henry94

    The Taoiseach has said neither he nor the Minister for Justice had ‘personal knowledge’ of who was on the IRA Army Council.

    Asked about Michael McDowell’s assertion that Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and Martin Ferris were members of the Army Council, Mr Ahern said Mr McDowell had access to intelligence briefings, but that hard evidence was another matter.

    He added that he did not have the ‘professional assessment’ of the gardaí on the matter, as he had on the Northern Bank robbery.

  • Ringo

    Henry –
    Can I take it that you accept the Guards have as they say uncovered a major money laundering racket run by the PIRA?

    And Bertie Ahern was being honest when he made the highly unusual step of clearly blaming the IRA for the robbery?

    I believe that the arrest of Tom Hanlon was bullshit for a start. So they are capable of it. That’s why I believe we should proceed on the basis of fact and evidence rather than spin and hysteria.

    In that case, where’s the evidence that you have at your disposal to suport your belief that the arrest of Tom Hanlon was bullshit? And then you follow that with a statement of fact – So they are capable of it.. How exactly do you know?

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    I have explained in detail my views on the arrest of Tom Hanlon on other threads. His arrest was the only link to Sinn Fein in this case and the false impression was given (by the Gardai through the media) that he was arrested with a large amount of cash. That was not true and he was released without charge.

    If you don’t dectect the bullshit in that then I don’t think I have much faith in your detector.

    Can I take it that you accept the Guards have as they say uncovered a major money laundering racket run by the PIRA?

    I don’t accept that at all. The only person they have charged is alleged to be in the rira.

  • Henry94

    Sinn Fein’s Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and Martin Ferris have issued a joint statement in which they categorically deny that they are members of the IRA or its Army Council.

    The statement said Sinn Féin is totally committed to the peace process and to engaging with the Irish Government to find a way forward.

    It continued: ‘Our involvement in the peace process is as leaders of Sinn Féin and as elected representatives for West Belfast, Mid Ulster and Kerry North respectively. As part of this, in the past we have met with the Army Council to put propositions regarding the peace process.

    ‘Sinn Féin’s contribution to this process has been substantial and we will continue to play our part. For some time now Michael McDowell has been unable to distinguish between his role as Justice Minister and President of the Progressive Democrats. He has made countless unsubstantiated allegations against our party and its leadership.

    ‘Recently the Irish Government accused Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams of withholding information and of conspiring to rob the Northern Bank in December. We challenged the Government to stand this accusation up and they failed to do so.

    The Sinn Féin statement concluded: ‘At the weekend Michael McDowell made his unfounded and serious allegation that we – Martin McGuinness, Martin Ferris and Gerry Adams – are members of the IRA Army Council. For Minister McDowell to do this is an abuse of his office. If his view is shared by the gardaí then the only way this issue can be confronted is for us to be charged with IRA membership’.

  • J Kelly

    Can I take it that you accept the Guards have as they say uncovered a major money laundering racket run by the PIRA?

    How can anyone accept this entire story as one of fact when the only person with any republican connections didn’t have any money and secondly only one was charged with an offence not in anyway related to money laundering. Is laundering money an offence?

    What about the guy burning the money, having bullets and cocaine maybe there was no money no bullets or no cocaine sure it made a good story.

    I have to say the best craic of this entire media frenzie was Jim Cusack, staunch supporter of the peace process (ha ha), jumpin up and down with glee on Thursday night telling us that there was up to ten million recovered and how the two Derry men were in Dublin to collect Euros and take them back up to the border. Not an ounce of truth in any of it. Just hype fed by informed sources. Coming out of this many in the media need to take a long look at themselves they have trotted out briefings as fact without question. Investigative journalism and innocence before proven guilt have both suffered at the hands of those willing to report what they are told.

    The one thing about this saga it has taught alot of people to stop counting chickens.

  • Ringo

    Completely irrelevant floundering. A futile attempt to gain the initiative and dictate the agenda.

    Lets see what this investigation brings. And who it brings.

  • Ringo

    The one thing about this saga it has taught alot of people to stop counting chickens.

    J Kelly –
    there are so many chickens they haven’t even started counting them yet. Take a look at the operations against John Gilligan & co, off-shore bogus non-resident account holders and the tribunals to see where this is going. It’s not going to proceed at the pace that pretty much all the Shinners on this board think anyway. Ye’re all used to the big day in court, well sorry but it ain’t going to happen like the old days.

    For a country so reliant on the financial services sector you can be sure that once they start to lift the mat like this they’ll have to keep going.

  • DerryTerry

    If Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris and Martin McGuinness are in the IRA and everyone knows it why are they not in custody?

    If the time has come for the peace process to be built on honesty and truthfulness surely these men should be arrested?

    If they knew about the Northern bank before it happened then surely charges of witholding information and conspiracy to rob should be levelled?

    Sorry, nearly had myself believing McDowellisms there for a minute. Back to reality, and sadly we’re still waiting for evidence.

  • Ringo

    reality??

  • DerryTerry

    Jacko,

    Was Scap a British agent within the IRA? Did he oversee, organise, and carry out the killing of people at the behest of his handlers within the security and intelligence services? Did these very same people not tell us that no agent of the state would ever be involved in such actions? Is it not these same people who are telling us the IRA robbed the Northern bank? Didn’t they tell us the Birmingham 6 etc were guilty as sin and that WMD would be found in Iraq? And your point is what?

    Ringo, regarding your bullshit detector and related paranormal talents, have you goy next weeks lotto numbers?

  • Jimmy Sands

    I’m puzzled by the psf supporters calling for their leadership to be prosecuted for IRA membership. What purpose is it suggested that this would serve?

  • Jacko

    Derry Gerry

    It was at the behest of his other masters, the ones in the provisional movement, that Scap was skinning people. I wonder if he was involved in killing the fellow Martin temped home from England?

  • DerryTerry

    Jacko,

    So the brit masters didn’t want him doing it because they were the “good” masters, and he did this against his will in order curry favour with his “bad” masters.

    Are you sggesting then that his handlers either didn’t know or didn’t care that an agent was engaged in organising, overseeing and carrying out these actions?

    Or are you suggesting that the “good” Scap worked for the Brits and saved lives, and the “bad” Scap worked for the IRA and killed people?

    IMO from the minute he became an agent/informer he had only one set of masters, and they were clearly comfortable with his actions or they would have stopped them.

  • Ringo

    DerryTerry –

    Ringo, regarding your bullshit detector and related paranormal talents, have you goy next weeks lotto numbers?

    And what would you want with them? Sure aren’t there far easier ways for a republican like yourself to get your hands on a few million squids?

    Ye’re political teenage delinquents. Ye’ve been given sweets for years without finishing the dinner and like a miserable spotty faced brat ye’ll blame everyone around ye for the trouble you’re now in. I think you genuinely believe the stuff you’re coming out with, but it doesn’t make it any less ridiculous or obnoxious.

    You really need to take a good look at the current situation and figure out why absolutely no one with any authority, not in America, not in the Republic believes the stuff that Gerry & co are coming out with. The unionists must be pissing themselves laughing at how ye’ve managed to alienate your only friends in the process. Its not Tony Blair, its not Hugh Orde, its not some shady MI5 operation, nor its it loyalist death squads, the Unionist establishment, protestan bigotry, the Orange order, Ian Paisley or the old enemies that are to blame. Nor is it those who ye killed and maimed for thirty years to join; Bertie Ahern, Michael McDowell, Noel Conroy. Or Mark Durkan and the decent honourable people in the SDLP. Or the Irish Americans on Capitol Hill. Its the republicans who are to blame.

    And until you start questioning the republican leadership and begin to see that what the like of Bertie Ahern says is more credible than what Gerry Adams says, you’ll still be eating away at yourselves in a failed six counties statlet, despised by the rest of the island.

  • DerryTerry

    Ringo

    I’m sure you feel better having got that off your chest. You can plug the detector in again now.

    Sadly I don’t have millions nor access to them so I’ll still take the numbers if you’ve got them.

    As to credibility and blame would i be right in thinking that in your opinion Republicans are to blame for the last 36 years?

    However, and I do hate to have to return to this point again and again, we still do not have any evidence. I look forward to it being produced, do you?

    I’m now off to nibble on my fingers, want share?

  • Jacko

    Derry Terry

    Not at all, just reminding you that he worked for the provisional movement as well – torturing, killing and scalding.
    And, just mentioning as well, that Derry’s answer to Art Garfunkel probably employed the Scap to kill the young fellow he coaxed home from England. Has that lad’s mother got over it yet?

  • Jacko

    Derryterry

    Have the provos butchered anybody up your way recently? The Lenny Murphy legacy, eh.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘I don’t think so. Neither you nor any of the others that use that post name have answered a single point made.’

    Balls not men please LOL. Personal attacks with cowardly anonymity seems to be the preserve of my attackers.
    I can assure you the posts under my own name are all the work of my own fair hand.

  • JC47

    “Evidence and due process.”
    Five Dublin men have been sentenced to four years in jail for membership of the IRA.
    One was in possession of a stun gun.
    One was in possession of CS gas canister.
    One was in possession of pick-axe handle.
    One was in possession of fake Garda uniform.
    One was in possion of Sinn Fein literature.
    Guess which one was the intelligence officer?

  • Glyn

    I think this site lost by only a handful of votes in that European best website election thingy (maybe by less than 5?) when the total number of votes for the winner was about a hundred. I hope all the 78 posters here remembered to cast their vote over there as well.

  • JC47

    Has anyone got any information of the claims in the sindo that the IRAs reign of terror in the Short Strand include rape of underage girls and other sexual crimes?

  • mogo

    Pat

    you must be doing ok, some “sluggers” think they’re in the ring with ten of ya

  • Ringo

    As to credibility and blame would i be right in thinking that in your opinion Republicans are to blame for the last 36 years?

    Terry you could hardly have supported my assertions in a more concise manner.

    You cannot take the criticism at face value,
    instead you must view it in a context of your own choosing, namely the fact that republicans weren’t the only bad guys over the past few decades. You’re wrapped up in a world of republican make-believe, so used to dismissing everything that the unionists said about
    republicans and relying on the narrow view from within – and now look at you. Denying the undeniable. Dismissing what EVERYONE on this island knows and has known for years – that the IRA is involved in massive criminal scams from one end of the country to the other.

    We’ve seen it all before.

    We all knew that Charlie Haughey had ill-gotten gains, despite the denials.

    We all knew that there were hokey planning deals despite the denials.

    We all knew that there were loads of people not paying the proper tax despite the denials.

    But the case most similar to this – where an organisation who’s vanity in seeing itself as a guardian of the Irish Catholic people allowed it to rot from the inside out, all due due to a code of silence enforced to perpetuate the myths – we all knew that the church had skeletons in its closet, and despite the mealy mouthed apologies and denials the truth came out.

    And we all know about the IRA.

    We all know about the deisel. And the DVD’s. And the cigarettes. And the security firms. But most of all we all know about the Northern bank job.

    And no, Terry I don’t think that they were solely to blame. In fact I don’t think anyone at all thinks that, except for your mirror images across on the loyalist side. Who like yourselves are trapped in an alternative fantasy world, where the Pope is the devil and Bertie wants to invade the Shankill.

  • DerryTerry

    Ringo,

    Given your faith in what we all know should we add a few other things that we all knew?

    We all knew the Guilford 4, Birmingham 6, Maguire 7 and god knows how many other innocent people were guilty.

    We all knew the British gov. would not be involved in collusion and would not organise, oversee, arm and direct Unionist death squads.

    And now we all know who robbed the Northern bank, despite the fact there has been no evidence.

    Having said that I fully appreciate the blind eye that was turned by political and media establishment to the planning, Haughey and Catholic Church issues you have raised.

    Doesn’t it strike you as strange that all those who told us they couldn’t expose any of this because of the lack of evidence are not similarly constrained by the current lack of evidence regarding the Northern?

  • Ringo

    We all knew the Guilford 4, Birmingham 6, Maguire 7 and god knows how many other innocent people were guilty.

    Really? I would have though that most people thought they were innocent or at the very least didn’t get a fair trial.

    We all knew the British gov. would not be involved in collusion and would not organise, oversee, arm and direct Unionist death squads.

    Really? I would have thought that most people figured there were instances of collusion such as in the case of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

    And now we all know who robbed the Northern bank, despite the fact there has been no evidence.

    Really? And why do you think they Gardai should show you any evidence they have? They’re not their to serve delusional Sinn Fein supporters north of the border, you know. Its good enough for the rest of us in Ireland, Britain and the US. And if €4m in sterling turning up in the Republic, shortly after the bank raid, as part of an investigation into money laundering by the IRA doesn’t strike you as relevant then thats your problem.

    Having said that I fully appreciate the blind eye that was turned by political and media establishment to the planning, Haughey and Catholic Church issues you have raised.

    Again you miss the point with spectacular success. The blind eye was turned by the general population, who buy the newspapers, watch the TV, vote for the politicians and packed the churches.
    Now it is the general public and in particualr Sinn Fein voters that need to open their eyes and address the issue we all know hasn’t yet been dealt with.

    Doesn’t it strike you as strange that all those who told us they couldn’t expose any of this because of the lack of evidence are not similarly constrained by the current lack of evidence regarding the Northern?

    What I find strange is that you have this bizarre idea of ‘establishment’, and ‘them’ hammered into your head from all the republican nonsense.

    What you’re stating as fact never happened. Please supply instances where the Guarda commissioner, the Taoiseach of the day, the minister for Justice, the entire cabinet, the entire Dáil except for 5 implicated TD’s ever told us they couldn’t expose any of this because of the lack of evidence .

    You see, you appear to be working off a very shallow pool of information. You’re out of your depth in any discussion beyond the narrow confines of your community, Narnia and its limited interaction with the outside world.

    Before you go embarrassing yourself any further you might like to examine the positions taken by the leader of the Inquisition himself, Michael McDowell regarding the issues mentioned above. Now I don’t expect you to actually do that – it would be far too much hassle, much easier refer to the Book of Gerry. To be honest I would have though anybody with any knowledge of politics in the republic in the past 20 years would be aware of the foundation of the PD’s and their claims regarding Haughey, tax evasion etc. Evidently you don’t.

    Either open your mind to outside sources or consult the Book of Gerry and crawl back into the darkness.

  • DerryTerry

    Ringo

    It is obvious that you have arrived at your own conclusions and nothing I or anyone else says will change that. That you have done so in the absence of evidence is clearly not an issue for yourself but some of us are old fashioned in that way and still have a belief in innocence until proven guilty.

    Of course in years to come you may have the opportunity to revisit these allegations with the benefit of hindsight, as many now do in relation to miscarriages of justice and collusion.

    As to the many kind comments and compliments you have paid throughout this discourse, I thank you. I’m sure you feel better having got this second diatribe off your chest. You can plug the detector in again now, again.

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    To be honest I would have though anybody with any knowledge of politics in the republic in the past 20 years would be aware of the foundation of the PD’s and their claims regarding Haughey, tax evasion etc.

    A bit of history re-writing going on there. The PD’s at the time of their foundation made no claims whatsoever about Haughey and tax evasion. In fact they went into Government with Haughey as soon as the numbers made it an option.

    The revelations about Haughey’s tax affairs came after he retired and they did not come from the PDs.

  • Ringo

    It is obvious that you have arrived at your own conclusions and nothing I or anyone else says will change that.

    Indeed there is no prospect of you managing to influence me on this issue. However if the Garda Commisioner or the Taoiseach, or the IMC change their minds I would do so too. Which is the difference between us.

    Of course in years to come you may have the opportunity to revisit these allegations with the benefit of hindsight, as many now do in relation to miscarriages of justice and collusion.

    One more time DT, – just because there was collusion and miscarriages of justice does not mean that the IRA could not have carried out the bank job. The two things are unrelated to all other than a hardwired republican.

    As to the many kind comments and compliments you have paid throughout this discourse, I thank you. I’m sure you feel better having got this second diatribe off your chest. You can plug the detector in again now, again.

    No personal offence intended. I find your reluctance to accept the word of everyone outside the accused republican movement on this issue to be revolting.

  • George

    Ringo,
    regarding Hanlon, he was taken in for questioning by the Gardai. He was not charged and no file has been sent to the DPP.

    This means that legally he was as involved in this whole affair as you or me.

  • Ringo

    Henry –

    The revelations about Haughey’s tax affairs came after he retired and they did not come from the PDs.

    are you seriously suggesting that in the 80’s the general public wasn’t aware that Haughey had aquired substantial wealth with no obvious legitimate means of doing so? He practically rubbed our noses in it, between the yacht, the island and Abbeyville. This was at a time when the country was practically broke.

    Des O’Malley deliberately portrayed himself as a clean alternative to Haughey when setting up the PD’s. He went on about cleaning up politics and an end to civil war alignment. While the latter was aimed at both FF and FG, the former was a hardly veiled reference to Haughey. Garret Fitzgerald had previously publically described Haughey as being unfit for public office. And the logic used by the people who defended Haughey by claiming it was Garret playing politics is now used to defend Sinn Fein.

    Just because he didn’t get done until recent times doesn’t mean we didn’t know there was something seriously wrong. And the same goes for now. The presence and activities of the IRA corrupts Sinn Fein and its democratic republican agenda and that is the bottom line.

    George –

    I have never suggested Hanlon was guilty of anything. I’ve only mentioned him in reponse to a direct question posed to me relating to his arrest. I pointed out to Henry that I never heard anything in the media to suggest that he was caught with cash.

    I’ve no problem saying the man is innocent until proven guilty. I don’t know anything about the mans case. I simply asked Henry to tell me what evidence he has to back up his statement that the arrest of Hanlon was bullshit, which I assume means politically and maliciously motivated. I haven’t seen a response.

  • Henry94

    Ringo

    are you seriously suggesting that in the 80’s the general public wasn’t aware that Haughey had aquired substantial wealth with no obvious legitimate means of doing so?

    One journalist raised it constantly. That was Vincent Browne. He used to get shouted down by the other journalists at press conferences for raising it.

    In fact browne believed at the time that Haughey had got his money from land deals. Even he didn’t know it was from “political donations”

    Des O’Malley deliberately portrayed himself as a clean alternative to Haughey when setting up the PD’s

    Why then did he go into government with him. And Ray Burke. And Pee Flynn.

    Garret Fitzgerald had previously publically described Haughey as being unfit for public office.

    But O’Mally didn’t agree with that. He voted for Haughey as Taoiseach in 1979 and 1987. Once as a Fianna Fail TD and once as PD leader.

  • Ringo

    One journalist raised it constantly. That was Vincent Browne. He used to get shouted down by the other journalists at press conferences for raising it.

    In fact browne believed at the time that Haughey had got his money from land deals. Even he didn’t know it was from “political donations”

    Indeed. The shouting down of opponents of Haughey was a remarkably common occurance. The man could do no wrong and was never wrong in the eyes of a large chunk of the population, not unlike the unquestioning, defensive attitude of republicans to this leadership.

    Why then did he go into government with him. And Ray Burke. And Pee Flynn.

    For the same reason Seamus Brennan said that SF and FF would do business – because the numbers added up. If you’re suggesting that O’Malley was being hypocritical in doing so then I agree with you.

    But O’Malley didn’t agree with that. He voted for Haughey as Taoiseach in 1979 and 1987. Once as a Fianna Fail TD and once as PD leader.

    I think he’d have agreed with that alright, but that didn’t mean he was going to pin his career on it. ’79 was excusable, ’89 wasn’t . Regardless, he was infinitely cleaner than Haughey, although sopme of his his behaviour during the arms trial was questionable.

    If I recall correctly Mary Harney was far more outspoken in the 80’s about the goings on of the Haughey era.

  • davidbrew

    Either, Pat is away for another consultation or there aren’t any Pat McLarnons available at the moment.

    perhaps he just trying to score brownie points with Gerry… :0)

    I’ll get me coat

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    davidbrew,

    that could hardly be described as spontaneous.