McCartney killing an absolute disgrace!

Henry McDonald’s article on the killing of Robert McCartney and it’s apparent cover-up made the UK edition of the Observer, whilst Suzanne Breen’s has several pieces in the Sunday Tribune on the subject. Morning Ireland this morning ran a powerful and extensive interview with his sister Paula.

Update: Details of the killings here, and here.

Shockingly, the reports suggest that there were 72 witnesses to the killing in MaGennis’s. No one called an Ambulance. There appears to have been a return to the bar to cover any forensic evidence. And the surviving victim has a 24 hour armed guard by his hospital bed.

She is clear that the IRA did not sanction the killing. However, she also argues that “for the safety of us all, it’s psychopathic behaviour and there’s no code. But it has to be acknowledged that their members carried this out”.

According to McCartney, Sinn Fein, the party her brother had voted for, were “dismissive of the matter”.

She concludes:

“If it hadn’t been Robert, it would have been somebody else, and who is it going to be next. This is what people have to realise about what we’re dealing with here.

“We want them [the witnesses] to be brave and stand up for justice, which is what we thought the thirty years was all about. They have to stand up to these people and take their area back.

“This is an unprecidented situation. We’re not interested in the politics of it all. We just want justice for my brother. My brother’s sons are left without a father, one of the best fathers there would have been. It’s an absolute disgrace”.

  • mickhall

    Mick,

    You are correct, Mr MaCartneys sister makes her point in a powerful manner, as a group this family have behaved on a dignified and courageous way after this tragedy was visited upon them. It is a sad fact that it will take a very brave person who witnessed this dastardly deed to come forward and give evidence, unless that is they are prepared to break all ties with their community and move away. A high price to pay. SF have not behaved well over this matter, as was highlighted in the interview with Paula. It looks like the PRM have decided to protect their own members, rather than protecting the community they are there to serve. They say the Psycho has been sent south, is this what they mean by a 32 County Republic, share the scum around.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    The family spoke to the BBC and appeared on Talkback today.

    Very brave, all things considered.

  • drumcree

    The Psycho may have been sent south, but as outlined in the following excerpt from the article in the Observer, he was the hired hand – lets see the puppet master and not just the puppet be charged for murder:

    “What happened next was witnessed by 72 people, all of whom would later maintain they saw nothing. After a fight between McCartney and Devine and the IRA members, the leader of the Provos gave a hand signal in the style of a stabbing movement. Then one of the commander’s underlings, a man in his mid-thirties with a history of extreme violence, went behind Devine, grabbed his face and slit his throat with a knife taken from the bar’s kitchen…….Bridgeen, and his sisters learn that the man who stabbed their brother has fled to Dublin.

    Donna McCartney says: ‘The man who ordered them to attack Robert is back walking around this area. He turned up at the funeral of an old republican woman “

  • Dec

    Whose version of events is this?

  • Mick Fealty

    Dec, all sources are named. Would that we had another version in the public domain to put!

  • Dec

    Were any of these sources in the bar? If so, which ones?

  • Mick Fealty

    Dec, that’s not clear from any of the accounts. Although the fact that an ambulance wasn’t called is presumeably a matter of record. The number of people in the bar may have been ascertained by the police patrol who arrived afterwards.

    Surely the alleged threat to witnesses, lack of evidence and subsequent cover up are the key issues highlighted by the story?

    Adds: if it’s the case that the IRA is being set up by ‘hostile witnesses’, surely more evidence testimony should be brought into the public domain, rather than less?

  • Dec

    Mick

    I feel that if the version of events that the press is reporting belong to the man currently recovering in hospital then that should be made abundantly clear. Suffice to say it’s not exactly the version I’ve heard.

  • spirit-level

    Dec
    Could you put the version of events you’ve
    heard into the public domain? i.e here

  • Editor, El Paso Times.

    This was a terrible act and those behind it should be hung, rumour has it that the guy responsible is staying with “comrades” here in Dundalk.

  • aquifer

    Dec
    We’d all be interested in your version.

  • lámh dearg

    Dec

    Come on, we’re all waiting to hear the version you have heard

  • Editor, El Paso Times.

    [Comment removed] EPE, I have no intention of letting Slugger fall into the fallacy of replicating unsubstantiated accusations.

  • JD

    The circumstances of McCartney’s death and the fenzied attack on his friend are impossible to justify.

    This attack can in no way be justified as “political.” Those who perpetrated it hid behind their IRA membership to do this to members of their own community.

    This type of violence and SF’s position on policing could combine to paralyse them and make them seem ineffectual.

    It is time for SF to isolate and speak out against this type of behaviour. Will take the opportunity to turn this into political capital? I’d imagine a strong line on this will go a long way in the next election.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘[Quote removed]’

    I think this is the type of s*** Squinter was getting at with the article in the ATN on blogging, pitiable really.

  • Editor, El Paso Times.

    Pat I was asked to post what Ive heard and I have done this, what is your problem with that. Maybe you have differently in Dundalk, if so let me know.

  • puddinhead

    What a heinous crime. Shame on those in the bar who didn’t call an ambulance. Shame on the IRA. And to think these thugs had just come back from Derry. 13 civil rights people died that day. I would like to ask the SF/IRA organisation to stop hijacking these type of events you just are an embarassment to all decnt thinking people.
    Justice must be served here. Good luck to the sisters.

  • Frankie

    Brendan Devine, under armed police guard in Belfast’s Royal Hospital, has told the McCartney sisters he will identify the five men if they are arrested …some of the men that were in the bar HAVE been arrested & released WITHOUT charge.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    It makes sense for Devine to reach a deal with the PSNI, if indeed Frankies verson is true. He was found guilty of a post office van robbery on Friday and is awaiting sentence and also he was also out on bail on an attempted murder charge (funny that).
    Could well see him striking a deal in order to save his own skin.

  • Mick Fealty

    Pat, please re-read your own reference to Squinter’s observation!

  • Davros

    “guilty of a post office van robbery on Friday and is awaiting sentence and also he was also out on bail on an attempted murder charge (funny that).”

    Does that in any way affect the right of Mr McCartney’s family to justice Pat ?

  • willowfield

    Pat McLarnon, yet again, jumps into a thread to defend the Provisional IRA.

    But he’s not a supporter, you know. Oh, no!

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Mick,

    don’t be ridiculous or are you simply only interested in a single viewpoint on this issue? These charges are facts on Devine, if he is a thief and a hood take up with him.
    Was it not you who asked Dec to put forward facts on this case? Was it not you who stated there was a need to get another side of the story?

    The story on Squinter was the use of weblog for unsubstantiated garbage, if that is what you want from Slugger participants just say so.

    Fact is the police have people of his ilk before to put others in jail, if you and others are uncomfortable with that, then that is just tough.

    Davros,

    I really hope that people in the pub come forward, at some community forum or otherwise and tell what really happened, then justice can be done all round.

  • JD

    I think the point is that if several of those involved in both sides of this mess have prior form, this may have an effect on both their vulnerability/ willingness to cut deals to protect themselves, and the PSNI’s “leverage” to get a “result.”

    That said, this in no way rules out anyone’s entitlement to justice, although it won’t be an ideal form of justice being done.

  • spirit-level

    Its very rare to get much coverage here in Sunny Brighton of Northern Ireland, but we had the interview of McCartney’s sister on prime-time BBC1.
    She came across with much dignity and composure.
    I wish others could take a stand and defeat the bullies. They are not hard-men just cowards.

  • Michael Shilliday

    I really hope that people in the pub come forward, at some community forum or otherwise and tell what really happened, then justice can be done all round.

    Does justice involve the police concluding an investigation, a criminal prosecution and imprisonment of those responsible? A “community forum” can’t do that Pat.

  • Davros

    I really hope that people in the pub come forward, at some community forum or otherwise and tell what really happened, then justice can be done all round.

    Here’s a suggestion – why don’t Sinn Féin organise such a forum to be held which would end any suggestions that they and the IRA have erected a wall of silence? If Senior SF leaders were present
    then they would be seen to be helping the McCartney’s struuggle for justice rather than, as claimed, hindering it in either a passive or active manner.

  • Editor, El Paso Times.

    Yes good point why doesnt Sinn Fein organise such a forum. Why will SF not call on locals to report what they know to the police, after all dont they work with police on the ground during marches etc. Havent they even gone as far as protecting police and British soldiers during marches. Surely a case of double standards.

  • Mick Fealty

    Pat, facts are always welcome.

  • Davros

    editor EPT – it was a serious suggestion. SF are in a mess over this. They can show that they are committed to law and order and at the same time they could not only use the forum to spare their blushes, but also to get some decent press. They can present themselves as the good guys by acting as conduits “because the nationalist and republican people of Short Strand have no faith in the PSNI etc etc “.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Michael,

    regardless of the circumstances of this murder, the fact remains the PSNI are despised in areas like the S Strand and Markets, it is a fact. Given the record of the police here your criteria of what counts as justice would be alien to the them.

    Davros the option for a community forum is open to all parties. Why don’t the SDLP or even Alliance organise such a forum, they claim to represent the people. Gerry Kelly has said that if he had info he would go to his solicitor. i dare say they would have no problem with a forum.

    I don’t believe we have heard anything approaching the truth on this murder, it is time the truth was out.

  • Alice

    i just want to say this was a terrible murder. I hope they get who did it, and the family get closure on this one.

  • Davros

    Davros the option for a community forum is open to all parties. Why don’t the SDLP or even Alliance organise such a forum, they claim to represent the people.

    1) They don’t have the same clout with the IRA

    2) They aren’t the political party in trouble over this.

    It’s a shame to see so much good work that has been done by so many in and on behalf of SF being destroyed because SF leadership want to continue riding the two horses.

    It’s a SF area. We keep hearing from SF leadership that they want to look after their voters. Young McCartney was a SF voter …and on this the RM leadership is behaving every bit as badly as anything done by the Brits after Bloody Sunday to obstruct investigation and punishment of the guilty. For all their fine words it’s obvious where the SF leadership’s priorities lie – with the hoods, NOT with the people of NI or even with their own electorate.

  • RedPaul

    Pat, the PSNI are despised in the Strand and Market, no doubt. That said, take a walk into 26a Beechfield Street in the Strand community centre. The PSNI information appeal posters re: McCartneys murder are on the noticeboard. Local Provisionals have complained. The posters remain in place. From the protectors of St. Matthews to the butchers of Maginness’. To Dec, I have talked with people who were in he bar that night. Terrified, disgusted? You bet. One person has lost their job already..couldn’t go back there. Under awful pressure from the RM and the PSNI. Said he never wanted to see what he had seen again or have his kids see the PSNI arrest him again. The whole episode is sordid and painful. I hope your version of events keeps you happy. It’s probably a hell of a lot easier.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Well said Paul.

    Butchers have no place in any political movement.

    I am glad Gerry Adams has came out against the killers, I hope this translates into people off the streets, and behind bars.

  • RedPaul

    Hi mucker!
    I’m sure Mick doesn’t want this to turn into a message board for oul muckers, but here goes! How is your good woman and the wee’uns? My skin and blister is due with twins in April!
    Still fighting the good fight myself..involves a lot of swilly!

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    people should put up or shut up, if other parties are cowards then they should just say so. Your little rant seems to have been overtaken by events, re Adams.

    Redpaul,

    What is your point re the posters?

  • PaddyCanuck

    Doing good Paul,

    Things are good here with R and the kids…

    I take it T is still with your sister, if so can he handle twins, ask him will he be able to fit them on the zimmer!

  • lámh dearg

    Dec

    We’re still waiting to hear your version of what happened.

  • Davros

    Pat – the other parties have been saying for ages – it’s only SF leadership who were slow to speak …

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Pat, Adams’ comments break new ground but unfortunately given what the provos have already done to cover up the murder I don’t take them very seriously. It is a case of closing the door after the horse has bolted.

    The details of this murder and who was behind it were known from the start by the locals and by the IRA. No about of misdirection from you can change this.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Davros the option for a community forum is open to all parties. Why don’t the SDLP or even Alliance organise such a forum, they claim to represent the people. Gerry Kelly has said that if he had info he would go to his solicitor. i dare say they would have no problem with a forum.

    Or how about we let the police do what they are paid to do? Your point about what people think about the police, I’m sure its no worse than it is in parts of London, except for one point, at a snap of fingers Sinn Fein can change it in those areas of Belfast. Its about time Sinn Fein began to stare realities in the face – allowing the provos another little “housekeeping” exercise is not acceptable, these people should be found in a cell, not a ditch.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    so you admit that they other parties have been politicking over this.

    Roger,

    please don’t direct any points at me again, correspondence between us has finished.

    Michael,

    are the police not doing what they are paid to do? Sf snapping fingers, don’t over estimate the power of SF. although from your point of you it absolves all other parties of their responsibilities.
    You’re right about the police though, people cannot be expected to forget their sordid history overnight.
    If only proper policing was in place then incidents like this would be a thing of the past. The PSNI are damned by their own history.

  • Dec

    My original point was whether the version of events that is being reported in the newspapers as fact is the version of the man recovering in hospital. If so, then that should be made clear. It seems that several men have been convicted of murder by the media without being charged with any offence (yet). I’d be interested to hear any legal opinion on whether their potential right to a fair trial has been compromised.

  • Rebecca Black

    “You’re right about the police though, people cannot be expected to forget their sordid history overnight.
    If only proper policing was in place then incidents like this would be a thing of the past. The PSNI are damned by their own history.”

    But Pat as long as the republican community refuses to trust the police service how can they prove their worth?

    Proper policing will only take place in Northern Ireland when the republican community stop making comments and thinking thoughts like what you just expressed.

  • willowfield

    Pat McLarnon

    I really hope that people in the pub come forward, at some community forum or otherwise and tell what really happened, then justice can be done all round.

    What good would that do? Would this “community forum” constitute some kind of kangaroo court that would then authorise a punishment killing or something?

    Enough of this barbarism: witnesses should go to the police.

  • Davros

    so you admit that they other parties have been politicking over this.

    Funny old set of values you have when you calling doing something that is right “politicking” pat.
    The people who should be criticised were SF who dragged their heels. The other parties should hardly be blamed for your party’s reluctance to do the decent thing.

  • Ringo

    Dec

    My original point was whether the version of events that is being reported in the newspapers as fact is the version of the man recovering in hospital. If so, then that should be made clear.

    Why?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Rebecca,

    But Pat as long as the republican community refuses to trust the police service how can they prove their worth?

    The police have a history that is not going to be forgotten overnight, sad but true.

    Proper policing will only take part when we have a proper police service. Wishing problems away is just naive and a bit silly.

    Davros,

    wrong footed again you are now locked into begrudgery. Justice for the victim in this case is secondary to yourself and others quest to put the boot into SF.
    Don’t get miffed when some don’t buy into it.

  • Rebecca Black

    We do have a proper police force, its called the PSNI. It can only do its job when republicans stop trying to sabotage it.

  • Davros

    “Justice for the victim in this case is secondary to yourself and others quest to put the boot into SF.”

    Anything rather than take a long and hard look at the SF leadership, eh pat ? We get the message.

  • Ringo

    Pat –
    The police have a history that is not going to be forgotten overnight,

    and ye’re going to make damn sure of that.

    The history behind Sinn Fein and the IRA is a completely different sorry, ye’re still working with some real creative artists on that one. 100 year anniversary for a 30 something year old party is my own personal favourite (in fact I’ve used the same logic and I’m expecting a cheque for €100 from Mary McAleese with a birthday card in it any day now). George Washingtons never told a lie being used as a template for the IRA never commited a crime. Not sure if the bit about Jean McConville being a tout will make the finished article, but no harm in trying anyway.

    Obviously theres a bit of work still to do with the air brushes to get it into the same permanent state as that of the PSNI, which appears to have been set rather firmly in stone a long time ago.

  • Davros

    Will SF mention that their founder as well as being anti-semitic also supported Slavery in America ?

  • barnshee

    “regardless of the circumstances of this murder, the fact remains the PSNI are despised in areas like the S Strand and Markets, it is a fact. Given the record of the police here your regardless of the circumstances of this murder, the fact remains the PSNI are despised in areas like the S Strand and Markets, it is a fact. Given the record of the police here your criteria of what counts as justice would be alien to the them

    SF and its supporters and its murder gangs are despised througout the protestant community. “given the record” of the catholic community over the past 100 years and its support for violence “what counts as justice would be alien to the them”

  • Scotty

    This is indeed a henious crime. It’s about time we all stood together and get all the paramilatries removed.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ringo,

    if you want to get into a round of whataboutery then save it for someone who has the time.
    Regardless of threats (real or imagined) people in nationalist areas do have a problem dealing with the PSNI. That has to do with the legacy of people in that force. It cannot be wished away.

    Barnshee,

    SF and the IRA are indeed despised throughout the protestant community, that is a fact. So would you go to the local IRA and hand over names and addresses at their or anyone elses request?

  • Davros

    would you go to the local IRA and hand over names and addresses at their or anyone elses request?

    No and neither would I approach the UDA or UVF.In very agonising circumstances I might have to – eg if a child had been abducted or some such.

    I would however have no problem in co-operating with Sinn Féin where appropriate. That you cannot see the difference between legality and illegality is telling.

  • Ringo

    Your definition of whataboutery, like your definition of a crime is pretty selective Pat.

    Regardless of threats (real or imagined) people in nationalist areas do have a problem dealing with the PSNI. That has to do with the legacy of people in that force. It cannot be wished away.

    And regardless of problems (real or imagined) that people in nationalist area have in dealing with the PSNI, the threat is there.

    Your attempt at giving an objective view on a subjective matter won’t wash. The republican movement fosters this detachment, and the threat is vital. It underpins its position in negotiations on policing. Hinting that people in republican areas would rather have throat slitting psyco’s waltzing around with impunity rather than speak to a police officer is preposterous. Is that really what you are suggesting?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    my views on legality or illegality is irrelevant on the views of how people in nationalist areas see the police force, people don’t follow me around, but thank you for believing I had such standing and influence.
    I do believe you when you say you would go to the UVF and UDA.

    Ringo,

    I have given no definition on crime, therefore how could it be selective? However, if you care to invent a position for me then feel free to do so, just don’t expect me to defend it.

    BTW i’m recognising that people have a problem dealing with an organisation like the PSNI and the criminal tendencies inherent in that organisation.
    I echo the call for people to pass whatever information they have onto people they feel comfortable with.

  • willowfield

    If Provisional SF gave support to the police then people in nationalist areas would have more confidence dealing with it.

    Time for Provisional SF to show some leadership.

    (Of course, it’s in the Provos’ self-interest to say that the police is unacceptable.)

  • J Kelly

    WF you cannot have your cake and eat it you cannot ask SF to show leadership in one breath and next imply they have some self interest in staying off the PB. SF have put forward a very detailed analysis of what they believe is needed to move the policing situation forward and if people want to debate it thats ok but its unfair to make cheap snide comments without backing up your argument.

  • Ringo

    I stand corrected Pat – to my knowledge you haven’t defined crime. All our attempts to get you or any other republican sympathisers to define the murder of Jean McConville as a crime failed, so it is true that I am less aware of what you would consider a crime than practically anyone on the planet. But if you’d care to enlighten me then please feel free.

    Getting back to the previous question…Are you suggesting that people in republican areas would rather have throat slitting psyco’s waltzing around with impunity rather than speak to a police officer.

    So the historical baggage of the PSNI makes some people uncomfortable. But I would have thought that having a bunch of untouchables using kitchen knives to sort out a couple of local lads in a pub would make the 70 odd witnesses a little bit more than just uncomfortable. And again you’re telling us that its actually the police they have the problem with?

  • willowfield

    J Kelly

    WF you cannot have your cake and eat it you cannot ask SF to show leadership in one breath and next imply they have some self interest in staying off the PB.

    Why? Is it too much to expect the Provos to put the interests of the community above their self-interest?

    I guess you’re right: it was a foolish suggestion.

  • davidbrew

    “Will SF mention that their founder as well as being anti-semitic also supported Slavery in America ?”

    nationalism has a bit of form on this one dav- Don’t forget our own local republican icon, John Mitchell from Dungiven was a great supporter of slavery in the USA when not writing his Jail Journal.

  • Dec

    Davidbrew

    It must be enormously comforting to know that Britain had nothing whatsoever to do with the slave trade and it was all the work of the Irish.

  • James

    Christalmighty, the whataboutry* free fire zone. Dammit, I don’t have a dog in this fight.

    Davros:
    “Will SF mention that their founder as well as being anti-semitic also supported Slavery in America ?”

    davidbrew:
    “John Mitchell from Dungiven was a great supporter of slavery in the USA when not writing his Jail Journal.”

    Information only, please. Were these individuals specifically antiabolition?

    *Note North American spelling.

  • Mick Fealty

    Mitchell certainly was. Although I think it’s a tad unfair to take him out of the context of his times.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ringo,

    please face the facts that to a lot of people in nationalist areas the police are viewed as criminals themselves so are hardly in a position to adjudicate on such. Not because of anything I did but because of what the police did to people in those areas, including killing them with impunity.
    Those actions should have constituted crimes but the legal and political system conspired on occasion to carry out meticulous clear up operations. So that statistically not a police officer served a day in jail. Not because they were not criminals but because their crimes were overlooked.

    What is a crime indeed.

  • Davros

    Interesting Link That Mick , if a bit exaggerated

    It is true that the Irish arrived in North America by the millions at a time when the Irish themselves were starving in famine

    I was reading an interesting article a while back where it was argued that The Irish immigrants “Bought” their right to be considered Americans on the civil war battlefields.

    Is it fair to criticise Mitchell in the context of his times ? There were plenty of people debating the abolitionist cause so it’s not as if he wouldn’t have been exposed to the arguments.

    But Griffith ? He was writing after the abolition of slavery,in 1913, which puts him in a different position IMO.

  • James

    Ye gods, Comrade Chairman Mick, the Maoist International Movement, no less? You been hanging out with Bertie, lately?

    He set up in New York and founded a newspaper that was vocal in defence of slavery. In fact, Mitchel also advocated the reopening of the African Slave Trade and argued against the emancipation of the Jews.

    Now that is one hellofa wiggy Derry dissenter. Chuck that context of the times, I don’t want him in the neighborhood. Where’s the Patriot Act when you really need it?

    Just the same fellas, decrease the kill radius of those whataboutry rounds to your side of the Atlantic, por favor, or we send in the Crips.

  • James

    That link on the blockquote failed. It should be this.

  • Davros

    Interesting link James, thanks.

  • Ringo

    Pat –

    please face the facts that to a lot of people in nationalist areas the police are viewed as criminals themselves so are hardly in a position to adjudicate on such. Not because of anything I did but because of what the police did to people in those areas, including killing them with impunity.

    Your whole argument is completely undermined by the fact that the McCartney family HAVE asked that people give information to the police. Are you suggesting that they are acting in a way that their neighbours wouldn’t?

    In this case it is clear that despite what ever reservations they have about the PSNI they feel that they are the best option for achieving justice.

  • Mick Fealty

    I think Pat’s reframing of the question is an interesting and useful one. It’s not clear as to what extent this description still holds:

    “…a lot of people in nationalist areas the police are viewed as criminals”

    But if it is the current view, then what exactly will it take to turn it round? Is it possible to turn round such profound distrust?

    In the absence of Police, what are local people to do when faced with criminality within the community, as in this case? There are also other more subtle forms of violence to person and property that are much less likely to attract the attention of journalists. How are such crimes to be dealt with openly and accountably in the continuing absence of an acceptable Police force?

    I may be wrong, but there seems to have been little in the way of proactive policing within Short Strand since the Patten Report was published.

    What’s the case against fast tracking whatever publicly agreed changes are required and activating a properly accountable policing service in the area?

  • Davros

    “…a lot of people in nationalist areas the police are viewed as criminals”

    Mick : “But if it is the current view, then what exactly will it take to turn it round? Is it possible to turn round such profound distrust? “

    The answer seems to be the realisation that what the RM offers in the way of accountable policing is far worse than the PSNI Mick. That PSNI posters have gone up in Short Strand is an answer in itself.

  • barnshee

    SF member kills SF voter– ranks close to protect SF –Sad but so what? hardly the first time. SF keep low profile make right noises time passes –just another unfortunate incident Rise of SF and DUPS continue.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ringo,

    if a member of the S Strand or any other community has suffered a grievous wrong at the hands of the police while they would have sympathy for the plight of the Mc Cartney family, this does not alleviate the sense of distrust for the police within that community. There is a real view that the police were not even handed during the interface trouble a few years ago. That view is still alive today.

    Mick,

    ‘What’s the case against fast tracking whatever publicly agreed changes are required and activating a properly accountable policing service in the area?’

    I know it would satisfy many.

    Davros,

    ‘The answer seems to be the realisation that what the RM offers in the way of accountable policing is far worse than the PSNI Mick.’

    I seem to remember a SF’er saying the exact same thing not too long ago when asked about punishment beatings.

  • Ringo

    Pat, Mick,

    ‘What’s the case against fast tracking whatever publicly agreed changes are required and activating a properly accountable policing service in the area?’

    Given the current situation isn’t the most obvious step in this direction a clear statement (i.e. use either the words police or PSNI) by Sinn Fein that in this unique situation, and in line with the wishes of the McCartney Family people with information should pass it to the police as well as the ‘trusted members of the community’.

    I know it would essentially be a case of Sinn Fein making the first move, but these are exceptional circumstances and it might serve to be a useful precedent for them when the big move needs to be made, not unlike the DUP’s interaction with the Irish Government prior to the first offical engagements. If people are not willing, for whatever reason to engage with the police in this case, I don’t see how all the fast tracking in the world would be possible in the near future.

    It is also impossible to get away from the impression that the Short Strand and other areas aren’t quite as homogenous in their approach to policing as Sinn Fein would like us to think.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ringo,

    i have already stated that people should contact the PSNI, if they are comfortable about doing so. In that context I think SF should be more overt in urging the same.

  • Davros

    I seem to remember a SF’er saying the exact same thing not too long ago when asked about punishment beatings.

    any details Pat ? Not sniping, interested.

  • Jeremy 1

    The disgraceful killing of Robert McCartney proves something that has not been commented upon. The McCartney family have acted in the same spirit that has motivated the nationalist community since 1968. They demand justice and will not tolerate any deviation in relation to the death of their brother.

    The IRA has responded to genuine pressure from within their own community and have disowned those have acted outside the parameters of acceptable behaviour within the nationalist community. It is an example of how the nationalist community polices itself. This episode will clarify the current situation for many, but not in the way that the opponents of Irish republicanism think.

    The over the top and hysterical attempt to implicate Sinn Fein and the IRA in the killing of Robert McCartney, and the use of the crime to harangue Sinn Fein over its position on the PSNI will produce republican solidarity within that community, majority opinion in that community. The only way to contain that sentiment is through outright repression – the unionist way and the one they argue for, day in, day out.

    The episode will rebound on opponents of Sinn Fein in the South. The appearance of southern politicians on the same platform and side as Ian Paisley (Jnr or Snr) will clarify the position.

    The appearance of David Vance on Hearts and Minds tonight excoriating Sinn Fein as “terrorists” and “liars”, and commenting on the McCartney killing for his own political purposes, will remind his nationalist viewers that the northern state is a joke, a joke that unionists don’t get. Sinn Fein is the biggest friend that the northern state ever had, a friend that unionists, starting with David Trimble, are and were too obtuse to recognise.

    At this stage not one single nationalist thinks that a single representative unionist cares about the death of Robert McCartney, except in so far as that death can be used to pursue an anti-Sinn Fein agenda. Unionists are doing nothing to disabuse them of that notion.

    So it continues.

  • Davros

    At this stage not one single nationalist thinks that a single representative unionist cares about the death of Robert McCartney, except in so far as that death can be used to pursue an anti-Sinn Fein agenda.

    What an UTTERLY preposterous claim … How do you know this Jeremy ? Have you been busy on the telephone ?

  • willowfield

    Jeremy1

    The IRA has responded to genuine pressure from within their own community and have disowned those have acted outside the parameters of acceptable behaviour within the nationalist community.

    When did this happen?? The murderer and accomplices are still at large. THey are still being protected.

    It is an example of how the nationalist community polices itself.

    If so, then the nationalist community needs to come to its senses. It should not tolerate gang law.

    The over the top and hysterical attempt to implicate Sinn Fein and the IRA in the killing of Robert McCartney

    Both are implicated! For protecting the criminals and for covering up the crime. Hardly over-the-top. Hardly hysterical. Time to stand up for justice against the gangs.

    and the use of the crime to harangue Sinn Fein over its position on the PSNI

    The incident has highlighted the contradictions and difficulties of PSF’s position on policing. You might think that people should not comment on this, but we live in a free society.

    will produce republican solidarity within that community, majority opinion in that community.

    I thought that was already the case.

    The only way to contain that sentiment is through outright repression – the unionist way and the one they argue for, day in, day out.

    I’ve never heard a unionist arguing for “outright repression”, never mind “Day in, day out”!

    The appearance of David Vance on Hearts and Minds tonight excoriating Sinn Fein as “terrorists” and “liars”, and commenting on the McCartney killing for his own political purposes, will remind his nationalist viewers that the northern state is a joke, a joke that unionists don’t get.

    How?

    Sinn Fein is the biggest friend that the northern state ever had, a friend that unionists, starting with David Trimble, are and were too obtuse to recognise.

    How?

  • Dan Maddalena

    To whom it may help! I am British,I am Catholic,I was born in England and was moved here when i was 4 [America]and have lived here since.My last name is italian,so i guess i am a minority in the eyes of my fellow christian friends[@Eng.Ire.Am.Ital.N.I.]
    I am writing this only after doing considerable reading on NI
    conflict.Also with hope that you may find peace within.
    There are many things i will never know and never read about in the context of your/our conflict,but what I do know and have read about will never touch the reality you live in and know.
    My rescearch has given only the slightest feel of terror you must know.Dorrian,McCartney…..Gibralta 3 dead,Armagh bombing Shankill fish and chips,SAS,Red Hand Commando….Paratrooper?Paramilitary?Cocktails @ macguinnes or Molintov, British informant remains,hit squad but not the ball ?Sean Kelley and the Maze,a Prime minister or Primeminister Heath.observation towers and masked faces,millions in arms but no jobs?faces of death and defacing of the dead,pawns without chess?children throwing up children throwing stones and last and only last children dead………………………..
    Children should dream not to nightmare.To be a pilot not to be blown up.To score a goal not to be imprisoned.To be a scientist not to be making bombs.To be be married and have a family ,not to be widowed.To have a nieghbor but not murder a nieghbor.To be a Teacher ,not a teacher of hate
    The best advice I can give is teach the children well for some of the past havnt done so

  • Dan Maddalena

    To whom it may help! I am British,I am Catholic,I was born in England and was moved here when i was 4 [America]and have lived here since.My last name is italian,so i guess i am a minority in the eyes of my fellow christian friends[@Eng.Ire.Am.Ital.N.I.]
    I am writing this only after doing considerable reading on NI
    conflict.Also with hope that you may find peace within.
    There are many things i will never know and never read about in the context of your/our conflict,but what I do know and have read about will never touch the reality you live in and know.
    My rescearch has given only the slightest feel of terror you must know.Dorrian,McCartney…..Gibralta 3 dead,Armagh bombing Shankill fish and chips,SAS,Red Hand Commando….Paratrooper?Paramilitary?Cocktails @ macguinnes or Molintov, British informant remains,hit squad but not the ball ?Sean Kelley and the Maze,a Prime minister or Primeminister Heath.observation towers and masked faces,millions in arms but no jobs?faces of death and defacing of the dead,pawns without chess?children throwing up children throwing stones and last and only last children dead………………………..
    Children should dream not to nightmare.To be a pilot not to be blown up.To score a goal not to be imprisoned.To be a scientist not to be making bombs.To be be married and have a family ,not to be widowed.To have a nieghbor but not murder a nieghbor.To be a Teacher ,not a teacher of hate
    The best advice I can give is teach the children well for some of the past havnt done so

  • Dan maddalena

    To whom it may help! I am British,I am Catholic,I was born in England and was moved here when i was 4 [America]and have lived here since.My last name is italian,so i guess i am a minority in the eyes of my fellow christian friends[@Eng.Ire.Am.Ital.N.I.]
    I am writing this only after doing considerable reading on NI
    conflict.Also with hope that you may find peace within.
    There are many things i will never know and never read about in the context of your/our conflict,but what I do know and have read about will never touch the reality you live in and know.
    My rescearch has given only the slightest feel of terror you must know.Dorrian,McCartney…..Gibralta 3 dead,Armagh bombing Shankill fish and chips,SAS,Red Hand Commando….Paratrooper?Paramilitary?Cocktails @ macguinnes or Molintov, British informant remains,hit squad but not the ball ?Sean Kelley and the Maze,a Prime minister or Primeminister Heath.observation towers and masked faces,millions in arms but no jobs?faces of death and defacing of the dead,pawns without chess?children throwing up children throwing stones and last and only last children dead………………………..
    Children should dream not to nightmare.To be a pilot not to be blown up.To score a goal not to be imprisoned.To be a scientist not to be making bombs.To be be married and have a family ,not to be widowed.To have a nieghbor but not murder a nieghbor.To be a Teacher ,not a teacher of hate
    The best advice I can give is teach the children well for some of the past havnt done so

  • Dan maddalena

    To whom it may help! I am British,I am Catholic,I was born in England and was moved here when i was 4 [America]and have lived here since.My last name is italian,so i guess i am a minority in the eyes of my fellow christian friends[@Eng.Ire.Am.Ital.N.I.]
    I am writing this only after doing considerable reading on NI
    conflict.Also with hope that you may find peace within.
    There are many things i will never know and never read about in the context of your/our conflict,but what I do know and have read about will never touch the reality you live in and know.
    My rescearch has given only the slightest feel of terror you must know.Dorrian,McCartney…..Gibralta 3 dead,Armagh bombing Shankill fish and chips,SAS,Red Hand Commando….Paratrooper?Paramilitary?Cocktails @ macguinnes or Molintov, British informant remains,hit squad but not the ball ?Sean Kelley and the Maze,a Prime minister or Primeminister Heath.observation towers and masked faces,millions in arms but no jobs?faces of death and defacing of the dead,pawns without chess?children throwing up children throwing stones and last and only last children dead………………………..
    Children should dream not to nightmare.To be a pilot not to be blown up.To score a goal not to be imprisoned.To be a scientist not to be making bombs.To be be married and have a family ,not to be widowed.To have a nieghbor but not murder a nieghbor.To be a Teacher ,not a teacher of hate
    The best advice I can give is teach the children well for some of the past havnt done so