Finally …

It took time and it took a lot of pressure but better late than never :
Adams urges people to help PSNI on McCartney case

Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams has urged anyone who knew about a brutal pub brawl murder in Belfast to pass that information on.

The West Belfast MP also launched a scathing attack on those who carried out the stabbing of Robert McCartney and stressed that his party supported the victim’s family in their search for justice.

Even though no one has yet been charged with Belfast man Robert McCartney’s stabbing, the identities of his killers is widely known.

After senior party representative Gerry Kelly visited the 33-year-old forklift driver’s grieving family, his sister Paula claimed republicans had frightened witnesses into silence.

“There are allegations that Robert McCartney was killed by republicans,” he said.

“I want to make it absolutely clear that no one involved acted as a republican or on behalf of republicans.

“I repudiate this brutal killing in the strongest terms possible.”

He added: “No one has any right, as has been claimed, to prevent anyone from helping the McCartney family.

“People with reservations about assisting the PSNI should give any information they might have either to the family, a solicitor or any other authoritative or reputable person or body.”

  • peteb

    Finally? Really? Well, it is the first comment from Adams and only two weeks after the murder.. but what’s different from what Kelly et al have already said?

    Just a minor point perhaps, but where exactly is the quote that justifies the headline “Adams urges people to help PSNI..”?

  • Jimmy Sands

    This one should be easy to assess. If the provos are sincere then, given the number of witnesses, it is inconceivable that the culprits will be at large by the end of the week. If…

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Adams, what a laugh, damned if you do damned if you don’t.

  • spirit-level

    Maybe Adams has had a
    “Can you see the light”
    blues brothers moment.

  • Davros

    Pat – he’s only being damned because it took so long for him to speak out. If this had been said a week or so ago we wouldn’t be having this discussion…

  • spirit-level

    Perhaps it’s because of tomorrow’s headline in
    The Independent
    IRA accused of protecting bar brawl killers
    P.S sorry about my comment earlier Pat

  • Jimmy Sands

    Pat,

    I’m not damning him. I’m sure even you can understand why few would take what he says at face value, but I’m quite happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. If the provos do allow witnesses to come forward then credit will indeed be due. Let’s see what happens shall we?

  • JD

    As I said in the other McCartney thread, this was an excellent time for and an excellent strategic move by Adams. this is the first step in turning this into political capital. Wait long enough to show your distrust of the PSNI, but then put that aside in a show of principled solidarity with your support base.

    I bet this will play well in the heartland despite people falling over themselves in pointing out the delay.

    The delay was the point.

    A policing strategy is on the cards. The value of the police is being demonstrated in a very limited for.

  • JD

    That should be: “A policing strategy is on the cards. The value of the police is being demonstrated in a very limited form.”

  • Davros
  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    maybe he is taking tips off Hugh Orde and establising some facts, didn’t it take Hugh Orde two weeks to comment on the Northern.

    spirit-level,

    sure it’s all just rough and tumble.

    Jimmy,

    indeed lets see.

  • spirit-level

    Ok Pat
    I really haven’t come here to make enemies.
    Thanks for the hyperlink Davros
    I can’t figure out how to do that.

  • Jacko

    JD
    “this is the first step in turning this into political capital.”

    Of course it is. It’s also a judgement call. The butchers will be given up because they are now a liability to Adams and co.
    I was reminded of Stalinist USSR and Nazi Germany when I read people quoted as saying: “If only Adams and co. knew what is going on in our communities.”
    Substitute Fuhrer or Stalin for Adams and it is exactly what people were saying then – little knowing that the respective leaderships were only too well aware what was going on.

    And nowhere has Adams asked people to give information to the PSNI.

  • Davros

    S-L

    copy and paste from the Note below the box.

    where it says hyperlink place the headline e.g

    IRA accused of protecting bar brawl killers

    remove the (URL) and replace with the link e.g

    http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/ulster/story.jsp?story=611206

  • lámh dearg

    And we know that SF have a previous and currently celebrated close relationship with the Nazi Party.

    Isn’t Mari Lou still running round Dublin looking for the bits of the Nazi/Provo statue?

    Let’s NOT go down the Nazi route, it’s been well enough covered A.U.

  • JD

    And nowhere has Adams asked people to give information to the PSNI.

    His comments are perfectly double-voiced. He is saying if you have info give it up, but you don’t have to go to the police. Can you argue he ruled out going to the police?

    BTW, did you mean to invoke Godwin’s law?

  • aquifer

    SFPIRA type statements bear close reading:

    “People with reservations about assisting the PSNI should give any information they might have either to the family, a solicitor or any other authoritative or reputable person or body.”

    is not the same as the headline “Adams urges people to help PSNI on McCartney case”, especially as the nationalist community may be “required” to have reservations about the PSNI – or else.

    Can statements that would convict be effective via third parties. I don’t think so.

    The headline for the link is IRA murderers still at large, SF continue to obstruct justice.

  • spirit-level
  • aquifer

    No but this statement from Durkan is:

    “full force of the IRA has been used to intimidate witnesses and prevent the killers from being brought to justice”.

    bbcni

  • PaddyCanuck

    I think we have to differentiate between the local IRA members who were involved in this murder, the cleanup, and intimidation subsequent to the murder, and “the IRA”.

    I think local members have moved to protect members in their own ranks, voluntarily, or under orders and this is totally unacceptable. However it would be strecthing it to say that the leadership, or wider membership of the movement “the IRA” are involved in the murder or subsequent events.

    I am glad that Adams and Kelly have came out and made the statements they did, but I must admit I am very uncomfortable with the delay. I hope convictions are forthcomings, and that internally IRA members that were directly involved are stood down, and ostracised by the IRA.

    This murder also raises the question of how the hard men are going to be retired when the IRA eventually inevitably enters a new mode. It is a very hard task, and I hope Adams and MaGuinness can pull it off. I still believe that achieving this new mode and managing the transition is still one of the goals of the Sinn Fein leadership.

    I hope this is the case, because as someone who has been a Sinn Fein supporter, the murder of Robert McCartney has moved me deeply. He was the same age as me, and his grandfather was my grandfathers brother. I have drank in that bar a good few times and have said things after a few drinks which could have got myself into a similar situation, in the wrong place, with the wrong people at the wrong time.

    The bottom line is there can be no room for butchers in any community. I hope the republican movement feels th same. Because if it does not, I do not believe I could continue to class myself as a Sinn Fein supporter.

  • Davros

    PC – this hasn’t been that different from what happened after Adare – denials, obstruction and now edging towards being treated as a “local” hiccup rather than something for which the IRA and SF should be blamed.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Davros,

    Point taken, but I was not aware of any denials or obstruction from Sinn Fein.

    Also local units and indvidual members of any organistion do have a degree of autonomy. I agree that you can argue with the degree of autonomy.

    I also think the comparison between the Adare is not a good one. Even the PSNI is not accusing the RM as being involved in this.

  • pakman

    Paddy Cannuck

    you admit to being a Sinn Fein supporter. Were you supporting them through all the murders prior to this one?

  • Davros

    you admit to being a Sinn Fein supporter.

    You make it sound like a crime pakman ….

  • Lena

    i thought i would join in on this thread as i have first hand experience of what is happening in the strand at the moment. the family are grateful for all the community support they have received thus far. they justt hope that some witnesses come forward. ti si a very stressful time for the mccartneys who right now feel that they are in the centre of a political football match in which robert’s death is being tossed about for any one political strength. both the sdlp and sinnfein are playing this horrible game to gain some votes in teh area. what they should be focusing on is offering support to the family. when mark durkan sat in their livingroom it was a photo-op same as the conlon affair. this is horid electioneering by all. as a community we must gather around the family and show them that the people not the politicians are here to say no more hidden agendas adn hiding the killers. we want justice for the family.

  • cg

    “you admit to being a Sinn Fein supporter.

    You make it sound like a crime pakman ….”

    Some people (establishment) are trying to say it is

  • James

    Another item for the Slugger glossary:

    Begrudgery:
    (1) The means of transforming a breakthrough into a stalemate.
    [mathematics: a mapping function between the victory plane and the right half of the s plane; A mobius transformation employed in the peace process to reach a dead end. See business as usual]
    (2) A pastime on the island of Ireland second only to reruns of Coronation Street.and Xena videos.

  • New Yorker

    Any who knows the facts of this murder and studied the evolution of SF/IRA knows clearly what is going on: Namely, the SF Head Liars are protecting their mafia godfathers because their are feeling heat from the local community which is close to driving the to the hills. You are either a collaborator with the SF/IRA mafia or a person of good sense and integrity and ethics. It is now criminal in the judgement of all sides of the good people of NI to support the SF/IRA mafia; and, thus, merits due punishment. There is no difference between the SF Head Liars and their godfathers and goons. All of them and their collaborators are now criminals, enemies of the people, and should be summarily rounded up and removed from decent society. Do any collaborators have a problem of the logic of the argument? If so, come out wherever you lurk, if you dare.

  • DaithiO

    Let’s just say, hypothetically speaking, PIRA discipline those guilty of this murder (if it was peretrated by their members) would everyone be up in arms about a “breach of the ceasefire”.

    As everyone knows they don’t recognise the authority of PSNI/RUC so is it another case of damned if they do, damned if they don’t ?

  • DaithiO

    ps. I still am a Sinn Fein supporter !

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    I find it hard to work out the position of some posers re this case and what the SF leadership should do.
    People have asked that the SF leadership take a public position on this matter and that is what Kelly and Adams have done.
    However, once they have done this they are being accused of being cynical etc etc. Perhaps the descent into the Nazi thing, yet again says it all.

    Maybe it is just best to rename the site the Nazi name calling site. As a thread opens someone should just post Nazi and after one or two posts we could have a variation on a theme. Recently Davros has mentioned Mao and Jacko has mentioned Stalin.

  • spirit-level

    Pat
    New Yorker wants to go for a more:
    “don’t try to understand em
    just rope em up an brand em”
    policy
    could we include that as a US Subsection
    to your innovative idea 😉

  • Jacko

    PaddyCanuck
    The line I mentioned re. “if only the leadership knew” really did remind me of the Stalin/Hitler thing.
    I think your post of 11-40 was very open and honest. It’s the delay of 2 weeks before Sinn Fein moved on this that gets me. Though, I do see they have gone further than they might have re. “anyone with reservations about helping the PSNI” which, no matter how you read it, puts the PSNI in default position regarding people coming forward.
    I think we can hardly stress enough here, that the family have been very clear all along that they do not want “summary” justice of any kind.
    And, regarding political exploitation of the situation as raised by Lena: It is a fine line of judgement to describe as exploitation a party throwing it’s political weight behind the family at their request. Also, the high media coverage generated by Durkan etc. is want the family knows it needs to put pressure on people to assist in the investigation.

  • slug9987

    Thanks Lena.

  • Davros

    It took twenty years plus for families of the disappeared to get an acknowledgement and a begrudging promise of assistance. It only took two weeks for SF leadership to move on this murder. I suppose that is some sort of progress. One has to salute the courage of the families involved who have acheived more with their honesty and dignity than all the posturing and manoeuvring of the various politicians and pressure groups put together.
    The McConvilles, the McCabes and the McCartneys. It’s hard to pretend to be protecting the Ordinary familes from oppression when the relatives of ordinary victims stand up and confront.

  • mickhall

    Pat,

    I disagree that they (Adams etc) are dammed if they do and dammed if the dont, in this case they would only be dammed if they dont. Adams has made his statement, we now have to wait and see what happens and I for one welcome his statement. Myself I feel PIRA has a responsibility to deal with these people and make public what ever they decide. Im not suggesting the murderers should be taken down a dark lane, but if found to be responsible by their own organisation, perhaps PIRA should dump them tarred and feathered outside a PSNI station, as the family seem to understandable want whoever murdered Mr McCartney before the courts. After all PIRA have been willing to do the aforementioned (TandF) to people for a lot less.

    PaddyCanuck,

    I found your post of February 14, 2005 11:40 PM very pertinent, thank you.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    mick,

    I agree with the sentiments of your post 100%. Although the rush by some to rubbish the Adams call was a bit damning.

  • Alan

    MickHall,

    In the first place, I don’t see that the IRA have any right to make a decision about this matter, even if it is only a matter of tarring and feathering.

    The crucial point here is not that the perps are delivered up to the PSNI, but that it is made clear to witnesses to the murder that they will be safe from retribution should they decide to give evidence against them. That is the telling point. We have heard nothing about that.

    Adams’ remarks seem to mirror those of SF in the area, who suggested that people could go to a solicitor to produce * a document of truth*. The point is that the family want this to go to court, which will require evidence, not second hand tittle tattle.

    This issue goes beyond the McConville situation because, rather than being asked to produce a body, the RM are being asked to recognise that a crime has been committed and, irrespective of who carried out the murder, allow justice to take its course through the courts. It is the breaking of the traditional omerta.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Alan,

    please try and listen what is being said here. SF are saying they don’t support the PSNI, but that other people might. They are being ask to out the truth and to give that truth to whoever they comfortable with. SF can hardly order people to do anything on this subject.
    There is no threat against anyone. People have asked for a statement on this crime and they have got it.It is now up to the individuals concerned to put themselves forward.
    Probably at that point you would then complain why they weren’t chauffeured to the court in a black taxi

  • An Bearnach

    It’s not fair to say the Provos did nothing for two weeks.
    (1) There was an orchestrated kiddy riot in the Markets to prevent forensic evidence being collected, specifically a washing machine which could have contained traces of Robert McCartney’s life blood.
    (2) Leading Sinn Fein member Alex Maskey was on the scene within hours, but he was not exactly trying to help the family get justice. He was after that nice headline in Daily Ireland.
    (3) When the vigil was called, Provos visited the priest in the Short Strand to try to get him to stop it. Seems they were worried about rising tensions.
    (4) A number of perps were got offside to Killough. The two main perps – names available soon on a brick wall near you – have since gone south for the winter.

    From the names I have been given, it is hard to say with certainty if they are all IRA members, but I know many of them to be Sinn Fein members.

    Four of the people involved were active election workers for Alex Maskey. Specifically, they were used for postering, including removing the posters of inconvenient opponents, threatening other posterers and threatening people and candidates directly within the precincts of polling stations.

    It is statistically impossible that among the 72 people in the pub, there was not at least one firm supporter of law and order and the PSNI.

    OK, it wasn’t an IRA job, but McCartney’s just as dead as if it was. Lots of Jews killed by the Brownshirts weren’t on an official Nazi list of legitimate targets either.

  • vespasian

    There is certainly a lot of posturing here, since I wasn’t there I don’t know what happened. If I try to summaraise my understanding from various sources .

    1.There was an argument/fight.
    2.A senior SF/IRA member instructed a ‘junior’ to kill Robert McCartney, which he did.
    3.There was a a clean up operation to get rid of evidence.
    4. The witnesses are too afraid to give evidence due to direct or indirect intimidation.
    5. The leaders of SF/IRA know exactly what happened and know where the perpetrators are.

    Why don’t they get the information and take it to the solicior or family or PSNI orwhatever?

    This is acting by SF/IRA in response to the recent headlines just as Blair does it. If they want to make a difference start here and get those two psychopaths off the streets, they have the power and the influence if they want to use it.

    The McCartney family deserve better!

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    An Bearnach & vespasian,

    You both seem to be in possesion of some ‘information’ why don’t you toddle along to your local barracks and hand it over. I have a feeling that even the hapless PSNI would show you the door.

  • Frankie

    An Bearnach & Vespasian
    You both werent there but having said that you both do think you know a lot so why dont you PUT UP OR SHUT UP !!

  • vespasian

    Frankie & Pat

    Do you have a different version or do you just defend SF/IRA no matter what they do?

    It is time for you to join the real world where scum and gangsters are called scum and gangsters and not freedom fighters, they are a discrace to the proud name name and history of Ireland.

    If you want to vote for candidates closely associated with them that is a decision for your conscience, you have to live with it not me.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    vespasian,

    are you going to the barracks or not? No one is defending anyone just querying witnesses like you who pull stories out of the air and present them as some sort of facts. I have no idea what happened in that bar, just like 100% of posters to this site.

    As for who votes for who, you have perhaps inadvertently shone a light on why a lot of people are interested in this story, shame on you.

  • Davros

    Durkan attacks Adams over appeal

    “It is only when Sinn Fein encourages people to go to the police and demonstrates clearly that scared people are in fact free to go and come forward in large numbers, that progress will be made. Until then, soft words from Gerry Adams will only be about saving face for Sinn Fein. and not securing justice in this awful case.”

  • Frankie

    Vespasian
    Earlier you said …If I try to summaraise my understanding from various sources .

    1.There was an argument/fight.
    2.A senior SF/IRA member instructed a ‘junior’ to kill Robert McCartney, which he did.
    3.There was a a clean up operation to get rid of evidence.
    4. The witnesses are too afraid to give evidence due to direct or indirect intimidation.
    5. The leaders of SF/IRA know exactly what happened and know where the perpetrators are.
    You got this from threads you have read …right ?
    Then you go on to ask me do i just defend SF/IRA no matter what they do? What are you on about What i asked of yourself & An Bearnach to PUT UP OR SHUT UP cos u obviously havent a clue.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    Durkan has stated that he knows who carried out the attack (though like a lot of posters to this site one canonly guess how) can he not show leadership on the issue and lead people to the local barracks.

    SF do not support the PSNI and recognise that is also the position of a lot of the nationalist community. Adams stated that people should go to whoever they feel comfortable with. I take it to mean that if people are comfortable with the PSNI then so be it.

    I wish some of the 72 people in the bar would go public to find out what really happened. So far all there has been is a concoction of innuendoes, theories and outright lies mixed in with a firm dose of politicking.

  • Alan

    Pat,

    *Please try and listen what is being said here. SF are saying they don’t support the PSNI, but that other people might.*

    They are saying nothing of the kind. They are advising people to enter into a pointless exercise. It’s like the old story – if you want to tell someone, then tell it to a tree – then someone will come along and turn the tree into a fiddle that will tell your story for you. Fairy tales!

    Be reasonable, telling other people will neither deal with the crime that happened, nor will people walk into the local station if the RM don’t make it clear that they are free to do so.

  • Davros

    Tell us this pat – How is this SF charade of allowing people to pass information through a mediary any different from the DUP nonsense of not talking directly to Sinn Féin ? Would you accept that Gerry Adams and co look JUST as foolish with their posturing over this as the DUP do in respect of their behaviour? Childish or what considering that SF were ready before Christmas to sign up to policing ….

  • vespasian

    Pat & Frankie

    No I don’t use Slugger as my prime source of information, do you?. Everthing I said that I understood is already known to the PSNI including the exact names so I wouldn’t be telling then anything they don’t know. Do you have any different or additional information that you can put forward?

    What the PSNI need are people to give evidence to them that they can use to extradite the people from their hiding hole in the South – but guess what? No one will talk to them or to anyone else it seems, maybe you can use your influence to change things.

    I do not therefore withdraw any comments I made about SF/IRA or their actions

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Alan,

    oh yes they are, Mc Guinness made the same point following the murder of the pensioner in Caoalisland before Xmas. People should go to whoever they feel comfortable with. Fact is nationalists do not feel comfortable dealing with the PSNI. I’d rather not deal with fairytales thank you, I leave that to others.

    Davros,

    comparisons between SF and the DUP are best left to you or someone else qualified to do so. Repeated yet again, nationalists have a problem with policing. Not my problem, problem of the police. When they sort themselves out, things should be ok.

    vespasian,

    I don’t know anything of this actual crime, i’ve made that clear. I’m honest enough to admit it, unlike others (yourself included) who have lifted every rumour and lie and moulded it into fact.
    As for influence, I don’t have any at all. I simply repeat, again, that people with the truth should get it out into the open by whatever means necessary.

    The simple fact is that the person wounded (Brendan Devine) should be in a position to identify those responsible. That seems to have escaped the attention of a lot of people.
    Although what a person on an attempted murder charge (using a knife) and also on a post office van robbery charge (subsequently convicted) was doing drinking in a bar, when he should have been banged up, is anybodys guess.
    Perhaps the origin of the knife may be of embarrassment all round here.

  • Davros

    That’s a rather cowardly reply pat 😉

    And you also manage to justify the boycotting of SF by all the other parties in NI and further afield with your logic about the Police.
    Try this :
    Repeated yet again, everybody else has(nationalists have) a problem with Sinn Féin (policing). Not our (my) problem, problem of Sinn Féin (the police(. When they sort themselves out, things should be ok.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    cowardly in what respect, lose the plot, lose the argument.

    Twist your illogical mind anyway you want. I’m merely pointing out the problem with policing in nationalist areas, something you are trying desperately to ignore. BTW try and be a bit original.

  • Davros

    cowardly in what respect

    You ran from an invitation to compare SF’s boycott of the PSNI and The DUP’s boycott of SF !

  • Alan

    *Although what a person on an attempted murder charge (using a knife) and also on a post office van robbery charge (subsequently convicted) was doing drinking in a bar, when he should have been banged up, is anybodys guess.*

    Banged up where and at whose instigation?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    sorry missed that, are the comparisons correct? SF have insisted they will join up to policing once they are satisfied on the reform front (not nearly staisfactory in my opinion) both SF and the SDLP settled too cheaply on policing.

    The DUP did sign up with SF on the Assembly, them telling people they hadn’t couldn’t disguise the fact they had. Pre Xmas they were merely agreeing to drop the charade.

    Therefore in my opinion the comparison is a false one.

  • Davros

    are the comparisons correct>

    Yes – the DUP have said they will engage with SF when SF reform 🙂

  • DCB

    Pat – whatever your intensions I’m reading your comments along the lines of – they deserved what they got.

  • Dec

    DCB

    Do you accept that if you launch an unprovoked assault on a man (republican or otherwise) with a deadly weapon in a bar it’s not unnatural to accept that he and his friends may retaliate.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    DCB,

    it is quite obvious what my intentions are, it is asking for the truth to come out on this incident.

    Nothing of my posts on this or any other thread could be interpreted along the lines of ‘they deserved what they go’.

    I suspect you are just being mischievous rather than provocative.

  • Davros

    Looks suspiciously like smearing similar to the smears put about after Jean mcConville disappeared Dec.

  • Dec

    Davros

    Or looks like you hear something that doesn’t fit with your own view so you dismiss it as a smear.
    Why then was a senior republican arrested in Dundonald Hospital after receiving micro surgery?

  • Davros

    Be blunt Dec – are you saying that Mr McCartney brought this on himself ?

  • Dec

    I didn’t mention Mr McCartney whatsoever.

  • Davros

    As this thread is about the Murder of Mr McCartney
    then what relevence is “Do you accept that if you launch an unprovoked assault on a man (republican or otherwise) with a deadly weapon in a bar it’s not unnatural to accept that he and his friends may retaliate.”?

  • Dec

    For the record, nobody deserved what happened to Mr McCartney.

  • vespasian

    Pat

    In the middle of all this I think that Mr McCartney’s sisters probably know what happened better than most – they said today that Republicans did it and are intimidating witnesses – that is good enough for me.

    Do you accept what they say?

  • willowfield

    Appalling to read comments from intelligent people calling on someone – no matter how much of a thug – to be “tarred and feathered”.

  • willowfield

    Davros

    Pat – he’s only being damned because it took so long for him to speak out. If this had been said a week or so ago we wouldn’t be having this discussion…

    The statement is pathetic, and would have been two weeks ago. If Adams wants the murderer and his accomplices to be brought to justice he should turn them in and lift the threats against the witnesses.

    PaddyCanuck

    I think local members have moved to protect members in their own ranks, voluntarily, or under orders and this is totally unacceptable. However it would be strecthing it to say that the leadership, or wider membership of the movement “the IRA” are involved in the murder or subsequent events.

    I’m unaware of a single person who has suggested such.

    The bottom line is there can be no room for butchers in any community. I hope the republican movement feels th same.

    Er, butchery was the raison d’etre of the “republican movement”.

    cg

    “you admit to being a Sinn Fein supporter.
    You make it sound like a crime pakman ….”
    Some people (establishment) are trying to say it is

    Who? When?