Orangemen march south

Orangemen are due to march through Cork city centre as part of this years Saint Patrick`s Day festival. The trip south may be eligible for funding through the new Lagan to the Lee partnership initiative. This might ruffle a few feathers considering the Belfast Saint Patrick`s Festival was recently refused funding from Belfast City Council.

  • smcgiff

    Good Stuff – Hopefully it will become an annual event.

  • oriada

    As spokesman for the cork south central barstool republican branch, I propose a boycott of the entire Patricks Day Parade, and instead a republican singsong in protest in Tom Barry’s, Barrack St. Celtic jerseys mandatory.

  • davidbrew

    … and follow it with a meeting in Bandon orange Hall to round off a perfect weekend.

  • Deaglan

    Well, I can only hope that they get stuck right behind some visiting steel band from the West Indies, with much ostentatious booty-shaking to offend those religious sensibilities!

  • maca

    Why do they want to march in Cork? (heck, even I don’t want to do that). Seriously though, why come South? What’s the agenda?
    Don’t get me wrong, they’re welcome just wondering what’s the reason.

  • George

    Living in Cork where such things don’t remain secret for long, it’s good to see this is finally in the public domain.

    It was apparently kept hush hush until the right time to sell it to the public. No time like the present I suppose with the ongoing Sinn Fein bashing.

    I believe strong assurances have been given that no political or terrorist insignia will be worn by any of the Orange Order participants, who I think we be from a Belfast lodge. I assume they will keep their word.

    The Irish Defence Forces will be parading some military hardware in the same parade so that could be fun if they’re right behind them.

    Good to see Belfast City Council footing the bill too – for the OO bit that is.

  • smcgiff

    ‘The Irish Defence Forces will be parading some military hardware in the same parade so that could be fun if they’re right behind them.’

    Considering we’re talking about the Irish army, I’d fancy my chances with a sharp trombone!!

  • Keith M

    Let’s hope that this actually goes ahead and doesn’t get stimied like a similar parade in Dublin did a few years back.

    I’m assuming that this is related to Cork being the European “capital capital of Culture” this year, and on that basis it would be a one off.

    There is a certain irony in marching in the county when Protestants suffered the worst of the sectarian violence during the Anglo-Irish and Irish Civil wars.

  • Ringo

    I really hope they won’t embarrass themselves.
    Are they familiar with the concept of a float?

    Walking may be all the rage up north, but it’s only for U10 camogie teams down here. As any self-respecting participant of a St. Patricks Day parade knows, unless you’re waving from the back of a dressed-up milk lorry, music blaring with some gangly lad pretending he’s Naomh Padraig along side you, you’re nobody.

  • Fobo

    “Why do they want to march in Cork? (heck, even I don’t want to do that). Seriously though, why come South? What’s the agenda?
    Don’t get me wrong, they’re welcome just wondering what’s the reason.”

    This is pure speculation but I think the reason behind it is PR. Most likely want to argue if they can march in Cork with no problem then they shouldn’t have a problem marching in NI in certain areas.

  • Alan2

    There was a “blood and thunder” flute band went south last year for a flute band competition (was it in Limerick? World Flute Ban Championship?) and came away with the trophy – and they didn1t change anything from what they do up here.

  • maca

    Fobo
    Do they seriously think Cork is like NI? 😉

    David B, any chance you could enlighten us on the subject? I’m guessing you have the knowledge.

    Ringo
    Don’t forget the FCÁ (sorry, now RDF), 3 bread vans, 2 fire trucks, a few cars from the local rally club, the scuba diving club, the Irish dancing school, 7 dogs and some eejit called Francie who always seems to be hangin’ around at the tail end of the parade.

  • CavanMan

    Good luck to them if they want to march down here,The vast majority of people down here will only welcome the development.

  • George

    Keithm,
    Ying to your yang.

    I hope they march by City Hall, paid for by the British in 1926 as compensation for the British Army’s large-scale reprisals against the people of Cork City, the looting, arson and destruction of Cork by the Auxiliary K Company on the night of December 11, 1920.

    Maybe they could thoughtfully pause in silence at the statue of Tomás Mac Curtain the lord mayor of Cork murdered in his home by the RIC. I won’t even mention the other statue there, that of Terence MacSwiney.

    Maybe you could be so kind as to list some of these sectarian actions against Protestants in Cork City for me and explain why they merit a mention but a British Army mob razing the city doesn’t? They’re not marching in Bandon you know.

  • Davros

    Maybe you could be so kind as to list some of these sectarian actions against Protestants in Cork City for me

    Which sectarian actions in Cork city ? Keith wrote about the county George.

  • CathalT

    There is a certain irony in marching in the county when Protestants suffered the worst of the sectarian violence during the Anglo-Irish and Irish Civil wars.

    KeithM

    Surely that honour resides with one of the wee six, not a southern county.

  • smcgiff

    To be fair to KeithM, I’m sure you’ll find plenty of his postings where he acknowledges the widespread sectarian violence suffered by Catholics at the hands of the British establishment and Protestant landed class.

  • willowfield

    George

    I believe strong assurances have been given that no political or terrorist insignia will be worn by any of the Orange Order participants, who I think we be from a Belfast lodge. I assume they will keep their word.

    What “political or terrorist insignia” do you have in mind, George?

    I hope they march by City Hall, paid for by the British in 1926 as compensation for the British Army’s large-scale reprisals against the people of Cork City, the looting, arson and destruction of Cork by the Auxiliary K Company on the night of December 11, 1920.

    Why?

    Maybe they could thoughtfully pause in silence at the statue of Tomás Mac Curtain the lord mayor of Cork murdered in his home by the RIC. I won’t even mention the other statue there, that of Terence MacSwiney.

    Why?

  • spirit-level

    I’ll be playing in a chess tournament in Cork City, but it kicks off after St.Pat’s.
    Will be hoping to catch up with a few locals for a few jars, and find out how the March went.
    And if they got back home alright 😉

  • George

    Davros,
    they are marching in Cork City not Cork county, there is a big difference I can assure you.

    But if that last post is your way of saying you can’t think of an attack on the Protestants of Cork City that compares with the razing of the city by the British Auxilliaries in 1920 that’s fine.

    As I said, ying to yang. It’s better to hear two sides. I can’t believe I’m defending Cork City.

    I could have brought up the huge Belfast City pogroms if we were talking about serious urban attacks on religious minorities in the 1919-1921 period but wanted to stay local.

  • Alan2

    “Surely that honour resides with one of the wee six, not a southern county.”

    Were there not 200 Protestant and Catholic Loyalists shot throughout Cork by the IRA in `22?

    Besides all that – what are you talking about?
    They have been INVITED to the Saint Patricks Day Festival. You are acting if they have just decided to go for a merry jaunt to Cork city to march through a nationalist area where they are unwelcome.

  • Ringo

    Spot on Maca!!

    George –

    Maybe they could thoughtfully pause in silence at the statue of Tomás Mac Curtain the lord mayor of Cork murdered in his home by the RIC. I won’t even mention the other statue there, that of Terence MacSwiney.

    What ever about Terence MacSwiney’s statue, you DEFINITELY won’t mention the one tucked away at the corner of the Grand Parade and the Mall. It’s to those that fought in WW1 isn’t it?

    Any chance you might take you own sanctamonious advice and thoughtfully pause in silence at it on your way home some evening?

  • willowfield

    George

    Rather than ignoring it, I’d prefer if you responded to my 3.26.

    THanks

  • George

    Willowfield,
    “What “political or terrorist insignia” do you have in mind, George?”

    I would assume the ones they gave assurances wouldn’t be worn, ones that have been seen at OO marches in Northern Ireland. What political or terrorist insignia do you have in mind?

    “Why?”

    Why do you think?

    “Why?”

    Why do you think?

  • armaghman

    Will they march waving Union Jacks and proclaiming their Britishness?

  • Alan2

    The OO do not march with terrorist insignia.
    SOME bands do.

  • Alan2

    “Will they march waving Union Jacks and proclaiming their Britishness?”

    The flute band that went to Limerick did.
    Depends. They might chose to fly St PAtrick`s Cross as alot of the Southern Lodges do. They may well wear shamrocks in their sash`s as happens up here.

  • Ringo

    armaghman

    Will they march waving Union Jacks and proclaiming their Britishness?

    And what if they are? Is it any more cringeworthy than a brass band over from Boston proclaiming their Irishness?

    I can’t see how they’ll get a worse reaction than if George and a few more Jackeens marched wearing their Arnotts tops.

  • Davros

    George – why not just admit you misread his post ?

    He wrote : There is a certain irony in marching in the county when Protestants suffered the worst of the sectarian violence during the Anglo-Irish and Irish Civil wars.

    You went into MOPE mode about Cork City.

  • CathalT

    Besides all that – what are you talking about?
    They have been INVITED to the Saint Patricks Day Festival. You are acting if they have just decided to go for a merry jaunt to Cork city to march through a nationalist area where they are unwelcome.
    Alan2 – was that directed at me? Nowhere did I suggest that they hadn’t been invited, nor did I question the decision to invite the OO to march. I may not agree with their point of view, or their exclusivity, but I am delighted that they will be marching. All I was doing was questioning the dubious stats that more people were killed in anti-Unionist actions in Co Cork than in anti Catholic actions in the north in the same period. I don’t have the figures to hand, but tyhey are easy enough to find.

  • CathalT

    Besides all that – what are you talking about?
    They have been INVITED to the Saint Patricks Day Festival. You are acting if they have just decided to go for a merry jaunt to Cork city to march through a nationalist area where they are unwelcome.
    Alan2 – was that directed at me? Nowhere did I suggest that they hadn’t been invited, nor did I question the decision to invite the OO to march. I may not agree with their point of view, or their exclusivity, but I am delighted that they will be marching. All I was doing was questioning the dubious stats that more people were killed in anti-Unionist actions in Co Cork than in anti Catholic actions in the north in the same period. I don’t have the figures to hand, but they are easy enough to find.

  • George

    Alan2,
    I said “Orange Order participants”. I assume the bands you mention that wore terrorist insignia in the past were Orange Order participants or were they members of another group?

    The Cork organisers have apparently been given assurances that all Orange Order participants in the parade won’t wear any political or terrorist insignia.

    It doesn’t do much good if the OO come out with a wolly comment saying they don’t march with terrorist insignia if some of the participants subsequently turn up wearing them does it?

    Better to get an assurance from the start that the participants won’t wear them.

  • Davros

    All I was doing was questioning the dubious stats that more people were killed in anti-Unionist actions in Co Cork than in anti Catholic actions in the north in the same period.

    CathalT – I read what was written as saying that in Cork County it was the Prods who came off worst, but it is ambiguous. As they are going to the ROI , I would also have taken the discussion to automatically have excluded the civilised six 😉

  • willowfield

    George

    I would assume the ones they gave assurances wouldn’t be worn, ones that have been seen at OO marches in Northern Ireland.

    And what are these?

    What political or terrorist insignia do you have in mind?

    None. It was you who mentioned them!!

    Why do you think?

    I’ve no idea: that’s why I’m asking! You shouldn’t answer a question with a question.

    Why do you think?

    I’ve no idea: that’s why I’m asking! You shouldn’t answer a question with a question.

    Stop being so evasive. Don’t be afraid to explain your own statements.

  • CathalT

    Apologies for double posting – didn’t seem to work first time so I tried again. D’oh!

  • CathalT

    May be my fault, Davros, but had I read it the way you suggest I wouldn’t have posted at all.

  • Davros

    It’s not a question of faults CathalT – May I use Cathal ?- it’s ambiguous 🙂

  • armaghman

    The Brass Band from Boston is also very proud to proclaim its Americanness too so I look forward the OO proclaiming its Irishness and waving tricolours too!

    Failing that they could wave Armagh flags

  • Jacko

    Oh yeah, a wave of the old cheque book and the Orange Order will dance to any tune.

    Pity the same tossers hadn’t been so broadminded before putting the country/province/statelet (select as appropriate) through hell and costing us a fortune at the Drumcree debacle every year.

  • Alan2

    “march with terrorist insignia if some of the participants subsequently turn up wearing them does it?”

    Such insignia is banned in Orange marches. Loyalist band parades are a totally different matter.
    For instance the Greengairs Thistle Flute Band in Scotland ahs been banned for the last 15 years from marching in any Orange parades becuase they refused to remove UVF insignia.

    I would think the Order will do their utmost to create a good impression and will be impeccably turned out and will choose their accompanying bands carefully. Hopefully something akin to the atmosphere of Rossnowlagh will be evident.

  • vespasian

    Do we need these continual history lessons, I don’t really care what happened in Ireland in 1690 or 1912 or 1921 or any other date before about 1995 (even 10 years is getting old). Who killed whom and did unspeakable things 100 years ago is of no interest to me.

    I am more interested about this week, next week next month, next year and things I can actually have some input to and which will have an impact on peoples lives.

    What do other contributors think?

  • smcgiff

    ‘What do other contributors think?’

    NO SURRRRRENDER!!!!!

    ‘-)

  • George

    vespasian,
    just counterbalancing Keithm’s primeval urge to bring up attacks on Protestants 1919-1923 when it is mentioned that the OO are marching in Cork. I hope that the ying and yang balance of this discussion has been restored. I shall desist from any further mention of said time period.

    Ringo,
    I know it well, erected by the independent Cork ex-servicemen’s association for all those who died fighting in WWI for “the freedom of small nations”, right beside the memorial to the victims of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

    Willowfield,
    You have a short memory. Do you not recall less than a fortnight ago being in the same position where I said there was no point in arguing with you because all you do is answer a question with a question?

    Have a look at your first post which is three questions and no opinion proffered. It’s very easy to constantly ask questions without proferring an opinion. I said then that, in future, if all you had to offer was questions, then I would use the same Willowfield method of arguementation with you. Enjoy or should that be enjoy?

  • George

    Alan2,
    my understanding is that this will be a carefully run event with both the Orange Order and the Festival organisers being careful absolutely everything goes to plan.

    I assume this means nothing on show that could even be construed as offensive as we all know, in the light of Mary McAleese and Kevin Myers, how dangerous it is to leave things open to interpretation.

    I believe a PR firm has even been engaged to put the appropriate “spin” on the event.

  • willowfield

    George

    Have a look at your first post which is three questions and no opinion proffered. It’s very easy to constantly ask questions without proferring an opinion.

    It may be. That’s no reason to refuse to answer questions. Questioning is a form of dialogue designed to enhance one’s understanding of what is being communicated.

    Now, stop being childish and please explain what you were referring to when you mentioned “political and terrorist symbols”.

    There is no point in you contributing to this blog if all you do is make ambiguous or unclear statements and then run away when people ask you to clarify.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi George,

    “Maybe they could thoughtfully pause in silence at the statue of Tomás Mac Curtain the lord mayor of Cork murdered in his home by the RIC”

    Would that be IRA member Tomás Mac Curtain? I think we both know ‘maybe’ is overstating the likelihood…

  • CavanMan

    speaking as someone who normaly watches the twelfth highlights on the BBC or UTV,i believe that an orange march can only add to the atmosphere of a St Patricks Day parade.If we are ever to convince unionists that they are better off in a united ireland,perhaps other county commities should follow suit(especially around the border areas);) and invite their ”local”Orange order to participate in the festivities.

  • George

    Willowfield,
    my own personal experience is being asked for clarification and getting obfuscation in return.

    But hey, I’m an optimist so I would assume that the assurances given were that no people marching would be drunk, shout any abuse, wear paramilitary rings, play offensive tunes, show offensive tattoos or other paramilitary trappings. A more Christian affair like Rossnowlagh.

    The smallest bit of idiocy from either side could ruin this project so it pays to be careful. But as they are hardly likely to be troubled by the presence of a bunch of tattoo-laden loyalist hangers in Cork, I would be amazed if there was any problems from the Orange Order side.

    I personally would be more worried about the drunken abuse coming from some idiot in the crowd.

    Congal,
    I agree maybe is certainly overstating it and yes he was head of the IRB in Cork in 1916 when the sum total of their actions was to cut down a telegraph pole. He was imprisoned.

    He was the democratically elected lord mayor of Cork when he was murdered in cold blood in his house though.

    At the coroner’s inquest into the killing the jury passed a verdict of willful murder against Lloyd George and certain inspectors of the R.I.C.

    One of the named inspectors, Oswald Swanzy, was shot dead in Lisburn on 22 August 1920.

  • CavanMan

    George to be fair.. i look at the orange order in ”green tinted glasses” a bit like yourself,ive never seen an actual orangeman wear a terrorist slogan,i do believe it is just some of the bandsmen who wear the filth.

  • willowfield

    George

    I would assume that the assurances given were that no people marching would be drunk, shout any abuse, wear paramilitary rings, play offensive tunes, show offensive tattoos or other paramilitary trappings.

    Out of that list, being drunk, shouting abuse, and playing offensive tunes cannot be considered to fall within the category of “political and terrorist symbols”. So, we can assume that, by “political and terrorist symbols” you were referring to “paramilitary rings, offensive tattos or other paramilitary trappings”.

    What do you mean by “paramilitary trappings”? Do you think it is commonplace for Orangemen to show paramilitary trappings? Do you think it is commonplace for Orangemen to wear “paramilitary wings” or to show “offensive tattoos”?

    You also said that you hoped the Orangemen would “march by City Hall, paid for by the British in 1926 as compensation for the British Army’s large-scale reprisals against the people of Cork City, the looting, arson and destruction of Cork by the Auxiliary K Company on the night of December 11, 1920”; and “thoughtfully pause in silence at the statue of Tomás Mac Curtain the lord mayor of Cork murdered in his home by the RIC.”

    Despite being asked, you refused to explain why.

    Would you care to do so now?

  • Jacko

    vespasian
    “I am more interested about this week, next week next month, next year and things I can actually have some input to and which will have an impact on peoples lives.”

    You do have a point.

    Though NORMAL people should be aware of their history to stop them repeating the mistakes.

    We should be DENIED all knowledge of history because we use it as justification for endless groundhog day repitition.

    Oh how great Ireland would be if only we had been gifted with the memory-span of goldfish.

  • mogo

    Willowfield

    Do you think its commonplace for orangemen to wear paramilitary trappings?

    RUC?

  • magnificent specimen

    I am a protestant from Cork and this prospect of the OO setting foot in my hometown sickens me to the core.If I felt any empathy with such swine I’d move to Belfast.
    Keith M,sectarian violence against protestants?What are you on boy?My family have been prods since the days of Martin Luthor and have lived in Cork since long before that.We’ve not encountered any sectarian violence whatsoever.Your problem is that you can’t seperate religion from politics.My religion is incidental.The OO use religion as a recruitment tool for their jingoistic and supremacist operations.They are a cash funnel and recruitment center for racists,bigots,sectarians and delinquents with too much time and too little intellect.
    They are what they are and forever shall they be.I’m ok with that as long as they stay out of my home.Shame on Cork’s lord mayor for pandering to scum in order garner some political kudos.This invitation is like asking Nazi war criminals to do a victory lap in downtown Jerusalem.It is also an insult to all the immigrants who have made their home in Cork City.
    Come March 17th the river Lee may well run red.

  • mogo

    in fairness jacko then you could forget about sleepin on another mans wound

  • James

    “This invitation is like asking Nazi war criminals to do a victory lap in downtown Jerusalem”

    Godwin Point

    End Of Thread

  • Fraggle

    before the nazis, who were people described as being ‘as bad as’?

  • George

    Willowfield,
    What point are you trying to make?

  • George

    PS Willowfield,
    there were four more questions in that last post from you and once again no views proferred.

  • Peace and Justice

    “magnificent specimen: I am a protestant from Cork”
    Yeah right!

    “Come March 17th the river Lee may well run red.”
    A threat?

    It’s unfortunate that while some people in the Republic are trying to reach out and accommodate people of other traditions, Sinn Fein/IRA fascists always try to put a stop to it. Let’s hope the Government in the Republic of Ireland keeps its new tough line against the Sinn Fein/IRA criminals.

  • Young Irelander

    If they’re not invited to march in Cork next year,will they still make their way down to protest at the decision?:)

  • Alan2

    “They are a cash funnel and recruitment center for racists,bigots,sectarians and delinquents with too much time and too little intellect.”

    You had better tell that to the formr Prime Ministers of Canda who were Orangemen, the likes of school master and author of the former Canadian National Anthem Orangeman Alexander Muir and indeed the hundreds of thousands who died in thw World Wars AND the black African Orangemen AND the Mohawk Orangemen AND the Italian Orange lodge in Detroit.

  • Alan2

    “They are a cash funnel and recruitment center for racists,bigots,sectarians and delinquents with too much time and too little intellect.”

    You might want to reconsider that statement.

    You had better tell that to the formr Prime Ministers of Canada who were Orangemen, the likes of school master and author of the former Canadian National Anthem Orangeman Alexander Muir and indeed the hundreds of thousands who died in thw World Wars AND the black African Orangemen AND the Mohawk Orangemen AND the Italian Orange lodge in Detroit.

    There certainly are some controversial actions by the Order but equally there are many good things

    “The Orange Lodge was, and remains, a center for community activity in Newfoundland. For example, in 1903 Sir William Coaker founded the Fisherman’s Protective Union (F.P.U.) in an Orange Hall in Herring Neck. Furthermore, during the term of Commission of Government (1934-1949), The Orange Lodge was one of only a handfull of “democratic” organizations that existed in the Dominion of Newfoundland.”

  • George

    No disrespect but I don’t think any of them will be marching in Cork on St. Patrick’s Day.

    Unfortunately, the images of the Orange Order most people have seen on this island in recent years are ones of people engaging in violence, causing public disorder and offering cover to extremists.

    For example, the presence of the Neo-Nazi and group Combat 18 in Portadown where local Orangeman Ivan Hewitt displayed his ‘Blood and Honour’, ‘SS’ and other Nazi tattoos.

  • willowfield

    mogo

    I’m afraid your 12.20am of yesterday makes no sense to me.

    magnificent specimen

    I am a protestant from Cork and this prospect of the OO setting foot in my hometown sickens me to the core.

    Why?

    If I felt any empathy with such swine I’d move to Belfast.

    How do you know they are “swine”?

    This invitation is like asking Nazi war criminals to do a victory lap in downtown Jerusalem.

    How’s that?

    It is also an insult to all the immigrants who have made their home in Cork City.

    How’s that?

    George

    What point are you trying to make?

    I’m not trying to make any point. I’m trying to understand what you are saying, which is quite difficult because of your evasion. Why won’t you just explain your point?

    there were four more questions in that last post from you and once again no views proferred.

    George, I’m trying to understand what you are referring to: hence the questions. And two of the questions were repeated questions because you had refused to answer. Why won’t you answer? Are you ashamed of your opinions and beliefs?

    Now, enough of your nonsense, George. Just explain what you meant when you mentioned “political and terrorist symbols”, which you have now defined as “paramilitary rings, offensive tattos or other paramilitary trappings”. What do you mean by “paramilitary trappings”? Do you think it is commonplace for Orangemen to show paramilitary trappings? Do you think it is commonplace for Orangemen to wear “paramilitary rings” or to show “offensive tattoos”?

    You also said that you hoped the Orangemen would “march by City Hall, paid for by the British in 1926 as compensation for the British Army’s large-scale reprisals against the people of Cork City, the looting, arson and destruction of Cork by the Auxiliary K Company on the night of December 11, 1920”; and “thoughtfully pause in silence at the statue of Tomás Mac Curtain the lord mayor of Cork murdered in his home by the RIC.”

    Despite being asked twice, you refused to explain why.

    Would you care to do so now?

  • Alan2

    “the presence of the Neo-Nazi and group Combat 18 in Portadown where local Orangeman Ivan Hewitt displayed his ‘Blood and Honour’, ‘SS’ and other Nazi tattoos.”

    And what has the presence of those nutters got to do with the Orange Order?
    C18 are present all around England and indeed down South. A bunch of nuts. how long have all these racist groups existed and exactly what have they achieved in all that time? Absolutely nothing thats what. The bible clearly states to love thy neighbour and it also states that he will gather all men of all nations, colours and creeds to him at “the end”. Thats enough for me to stand against such nuts. any “Orangeman” who has ne-nazi or SS tatoo`s should be thrown out forwith not only for spouting such utter bile but for disrespecting the dead of ALL traditions from around the world who died for truth, liberty and peace fighting the Nazi regime in the World Wars.

  • Alan2

    If the KVFB flute band can march through Limerick with no problems AND win the trophy then the Order marching through Cork for St Paddys is also no problem. Good luck to them

  • George

    Alan2,
    I agree absolutely with your comments but the problem was that Combat 18 and their buddies in the LVF were at Drumcree and no members of the Orange Order spoke out against their presence at the time.

    In fact the level of threat they brought with them nearly seemed to encourage those there. That is what I mean by giving cover to extremists.

    Also, we are all aware of the violence at Drumcree, we all saw the men in sashes carrying out violent acts against the forces of law and order.

    These are the images the Orange Order need to make people forget.

    I know all about the OO in Ghana and I know they have come to NI for marches too but when in NI, even their Grand Master refused to march in any areas where as he said himself “we are not wanted”.

    If the Orange Order in Northern Ireland behaved like their brethren in Ghana, there wouldn’t have been a Drumcree.

  • George

    Willowfield,
    the number of questions from you has now risen to seven. Will we make it to double figures by the end of the day I ask myself?

    Profer an opinion as to what you think it means. That might be a start.

  • willowfield

    Your stubborn unwillingness to engage in dialogue is truly pathetic, George. You are like a teenager.

    Goodbye.

  • George

    Willowfield,
    How can I engage in dialogue if you fail to profer a view and have never admitted to anyone on this forum that you have ever been incorrect about anything.

    Dialogue is, after all, a process for sharing and learning about another group’s beliefs. If you have yet to be proved wrong about anything, you have yet to have engaged in dialogue.

    Asking questions does not a dialogue make.

  • willowfield

    Your ongoing refusal to explain your statements remains pathetic. Mindless and irrelevant ad hominem comments do not disguise that.

  • davidbrew

    “I am a protestant from Cork and this prospect of the OO setting foot in my hometown sickens me to the core.If I felt any empathy with such swine I’d move to Belfast.”

    whoopdedoop Martin Mansergh’s blogging! or else someone whose anonymity allows us to be a tad sceptical.

    I’m sure some protestants in the RoI think like you, as many do in the north, but it is indeed a pity that you can be so brainwashed as to despise your co-religionists. Protestantisnm is about having an open mind, and you would do well to remember that. See it and then condemn it if you will. And since Protestantism celebrates diversity you might want to consider how much better it will be for all of the people of Ireland to be exposed to each other’s culture- some folks up here call it “One small step”, and it’s heartening to see comments from such as Cavanman, which are a practical demonstration of that openmindedness which you sadly lack.

    And talk to your fellow Protestants. I know people who live in NI because their grandparents were forced out of Cork on pain of death, and I have spoken to people whose families bore the brunt of the IRA campaign in 1921.

    But then of course the apologists like George will explain that they were probably too stupid to realise that by behaving like ordinary law abiding citizens should in their own country they unwittingly had become traitors in a self proclaimed “war” , deserving of being taken out and shot in a bog. That they were Protestant, was- naturally- “an unfortunate coincidence”, which must have been a great consolation to them at the time, as no doubt it is to you, if you really claim to believe there was no sectarianism in Cork.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs of civil wars, minorities always get persecuted, and the founders of your state were particularly efficient practitioners of that truism.

  • Davros
  • davidbrew

    .. oh, and in answer to earlier requests for information, the Lodges concerned will probably have a conncetion with the patron saint- like cross of sdaint Patrick from Belfast or St Patrick’s from (I think) County Antrim.

    And I bet whatever band is accompanying them will win a prize- there’s nothing like political correctness is there lads ? :0)

  • objectivist

    A number of interesting comments here.
    First of all I think the OO,which is an all-Ireland institution,should be allowed march whenever they want in the ROI.This is noblesse oblige in the modern pluralist Southern Ireland.Nevertheless it cannot be denied that this outfit,which constitutionally defines itself in terms of opposition and hostility to Roman
    Catholicism,has a sectarian dimension.Accordingly it would help their case enormously,in PR terms,if they expunged the nasty anti-Catholic bits from their constitution.
    A lot of stuff has been written here in recent months about alleged events in West Cork circa 1921.Time for some historic contextualisation.The
    IRA *of the time* ( this last point cannot be overemphasised) was engaged in a legitimate war of independence authorised by the democratically elected first Dail.They were up against the absolute dregs of the British Army – the Black and Tans whose einzgruppen-like activities are well documented and even caused considerable embarrassment in Britain at the time.West Cork in particular bore the brunt of their reign of terror -summary executions,burning of farmhouses etc.This being the case anyone ,of whatever denomination,who gave them serious assistance was not liable to have been gently treated.In war,as Kevin Myers said,’terrible things happen’.But this was nothing ,for example,when analagously compared with the treatment of loyalists in the American Revolution.

    Mr.Brewster.
    Hell hath no fury like an Ulster Unionist whose beloved Southern-Ireland-oppresses/oppressed-Protestants mantra is flatly denied by a genuine Southern Protestant.Calling such individuals’ Protestantism into question,as one poster did with ‘magnificent specimen’ is par for the course.
    The Biblical mote/beam metaphor is relevant here,David.On a ‘minority oppression’ scale of 1 to 10,if you fixed NI at 10,the South,at an extreme stretch of the imagination, might come in at 1.
    You say you know people whose grandparents were forced out of the ROI.My grandmother was forced to flee from Belfast during the notorious anti-Catholic pogrom.
    I think the Dawkins/Blackmore meme hypothesis is operational here.If you fervently *want* to believe that something is true ,in this case that there was significant oppression of Protestants in Southern Ireland, you will subconsciously select ‘pro’ arguments and suppress ‘anti’ arguments.
    Whatever *may* have happened in West Cork was a pinprick compared to what was contemporaneously happening in Belfast.I susupect that some unionists use the former to distract attention from the latter the way some Germans use the 1945 Dresden air raid to shroud over their country’s somewhat more significant misdemeanors.
    Incidentally your party leader when asked by a journalist immediately after his infamous monoethnic/monocultural/sectarian statement what facts he could cite to back up his comment became quite flustered and noncommunicative.Answer there was none for none was the answer.
    You mentioned Protestants being forced out of the ROI circa 1921-my grandmother was driven out of Belfast in the anti-Catholic pogrom of the same period.
    I also tend to metaphorically keep the salt cellar close at hand on reading this stuff .Let’s face it,Protestants in,say,Cavan around this time had a choice between staying put and being treated just like everyone else or else moving North where they were guaranteed preferential treatment in jobs,housing etc.Not surprisingly many chose the latter option but were unlikely to admit to such venal considerations.Better to construct a spiel about Southern oppression.Altogether more noble!.THe snag is that these things tend to acquire a certain transgenerational credibility.

    Willowfield,
    Towards the end of the McAleese thread your arguments were becoming so folorn that I decided to put the whole thing out of its misery.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding I am neither a unionist or a nationalist-just an objectivist.

  • Davros

    Time for some historic contextualisation.

    Good Idea

    They were up against the absolute dregs of the British Army – the Black and Tans whose einzgruppen-like activities are well documented and even caused considerable embarrassment in Britain at the time.

    History or propaganda ?

  • O’Neil

    Tis pathetic that you all are re-hashing old hatreds. As long as you do you will never be free of the conflict. No one group has clean hands in any conflict. Sinn Fein was in with the Nazis in WWII, helping re fuel U boats, not to mention all the innocents they have murdered over the years – not an organization a civilized person would want to be associated with. Nor is anything connected to Ian Paisley. The Black and Tans, Cromwell and as far back as you want to go, there are people with prehistoric attitudes of eye for eye, tooth for tooth, body for body. The Sinn Fein shot Oswald Swanzy, innocent of the offense assumed, as he walked out of church in front of his family, nothing at all to brag about.

    If a group of Protestants accepted an invitation to walk on March 17 to effect a rapprochement – cheers to them and to the group that invited them. A bouquet of weeds to the naysayers.