IRA emphasise "seriousness" in second statement…

THE IRA has released a second statement, which seems to be a reaction to the political response to its previous statement, when politicians and police played down the threat of potential violence. The IRA said: “The two governments are trying to play down the importance of our statement because they are making a mess of the peace process. Do not underestimate the seriousness of the situation.”

  • twinkilcooleywithcoxsdemesne

    It’s simply the second leg of the “TUAS” strategy – Tell Us Another Storey..(sic)

  • IJP

    Basically the false ‘republican’ doublespeak is that their Irish citizenship somehow gives them the right to ignore the laws of the UK while they are in NI on the basis that they’d rather the British State didn’t have jurisdiction there. The problem for them is that the British State does have jurisdiction there!

    When I was in Germany I had to abide by the laws of Germany, even though I wasn’t a German citizen at all. When I am in the Irish Republic I have to abide by the laws of the Irish Republic, even if I’d prefer not to be an Irish citizen (quite happy to be one in fact, but that’s not the point). And when I’m in the UK, regardless of citizenship or preferred citizenship, I have to abide by the laws of the UK.

    Those residing in NI must abide by the laws of the UK. If they wish to change those (including the very one that places NI within the UK), they have the right to do so democratically. But they do not have the right to ignore reality, nor to use violence or the threat of violence.

  • Alan2

    George Bush take note.

  • Jacko

    CG
    So you started that whole row cursing at us and evrything and then, 4 hours later, you think it might be relevant to mention that you were born in the south of southern parents.

    Willowfield

    It was me who introduced the register thing, I was alluding to the legal requirement for birth registration.

    Mike

    If, as the provos argue, it was a war, then by every international code they are guilty of numerous war crimes. If, instead, it wasn’t a war then they were commiting criminal acts.

    So, war criminals or ordinary common-or-garden ones, let them take their pick.

  • Alan2

    Yeah that kinda nips. The forces of the state are held accountable ie Bloody sunday and all the rest…which is only right but woe betide and wrong doing amongst the IRA who were “at war”.

  • Alan2

    *but woe betide anyone who dares to highlight any wrong doing amongst the IRA who were “at war”.

  • willowfield

    Jacko

    It was me who introduced the register thing, I was alluding to the legal requirement for birth registration.

    No. Politico mentioned it before you.

  • Henry94

    IJP

    Basically the false ‘republican’ doublespeak is that their Irish citizenship somehow gives them the right to ignore the laws of the UK while they are in NI on the basis that they’d rather the British State didn’t have jurisdiction there.

    I’m not using may Irish citizenship as a justification for breaking any law in any state. What an outrageous allegation.

  • willowfield

    But you’re claiming that UK law doesn’t apply to you because you are an ROI citizen.

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    UK laws on citizenship apply to the UK state not to the individual citizen. The UK state has defined for itself how it chooses to regard me. It confers no obligation on me to share their opinion or their definition.

    I am not acting outside the law in any way whatsoever.

  • abucs

    ulsterman,

    “The Pope is on the run”.

    Is that a medical update ? 🙂

  • slug9987

    The fact that this thread quickly went off topic to the extremely tired topic of citizenship suggests that people are not taking the second IRA statement seriously enough.

    Get back on topic, guys, of there could be a third IRA statement saying that people have not taken the second one seriously enough.

  • abucs

    Geez those doctors are good !!

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    UK laws on citizenship apply to the UK state not to the individual citizen.

    Don’t be ridiculous! Of course they apply to individuals! I’ve never heard anything so stupid in all my laugh. You’re desperation to deny reality is clear.

    The UK state has defined for itself how it chooses to regard me. It confers no obligation on me to share their opinion or their definition.

    It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact. You are a UK citizen. If you don’t want to be you can pay your £81 and renounce it.

    I am not acting outside the law in any way whatsoever.

    I never said you were. You’re just being very silly and childish. But no matter how loudly you stamp your feet and shout “I’m not a British citizen”, you can’t relinquish your citizenship unless you pay your £81.

  • willowfield

    LOL, slug!

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    You have lost your cool and made a fool of yourself again.

    The UK parliament is free to pass a law about what it believes. It has no authority to pass a law about what I believe.

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    I haven’t lost my cool, nor have I made a fool of myself.

    The UK parliament is free to pass a law about what it believes. It has no authority to pass a law about what I believe.

    You’re spiralling into a circle of greater and greater nonsense. No-one says it has the authority to pass a law about what you believe! What you believe is totally irrelevant.

    You are a UK citizen whether you “believe” it or not! Unless you pay your £81.

    I might believe I am the Son of God. That does not make it true.

    You’re in denial. But I don’t understand the big deal: we know you don’t WANT to be a UK citizen.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Do you really have to pay £81 to renounce UK subjectship?

    Even if you didn’t want the damned thing in the first place?

    Scandalous.

  • willowfield

    Subjectship?

    No such word, Billy.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    I just coined it. Citizenship would have been inaccurate.

  • willowfield

    It wouldn’t.

  • Henry94

    Billy

    It sounds like a scam doesn’t it. And you need to produce a British birth cert or passport to prove you are a British citizen in order to renounce it.

    So if, like me, you have neither then there is no evidence to support their claim on you in the first place.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Willow.

    Wouldn’t it? Please, do elaborate.

  • willowfield

    Well, looks like Henry94 is starting to acknowledge the reality. He must have gone online to find out how he can renounce his citizenship!

    Why don’t you have a birth certificate, Henry? If you’ve lost it you can apply for a new one.

  • willowfield

    Billy

    It wouldn’t have been inaccurate because it would have been accurate. The point was about renouncing citizenship. Hence it would have been accurate for you to refer to “citizenship”.

  • slug9987

    Placing to one side the sterile discussion about citizenship, what do Henry and Billy think is the meaning of the second IRA statement?

  • The Dog

    This citizenship stuuff goes around in circles –

    The relevent text . . . recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish, British or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments.

    I think that makes it clear that Irish citizens in the north have the right to claim and enjoy their Irish citizenship and not have any other citizenship imposed upon them.

    However as Irish citizens residing within a part of Ireland which currenly is within the juristiction of the UK there are certain laws etc that apply i.e with regard to taxes etc. Just as if you are an IRish citizen residing within FRance for example and you are covered by the laws governing that juristiction. Also there is then the EU framework that governs the EU juristiction.

    HOwever, none of this undermines the right to exclsuively hold Irish citizenship in the north or conversely UK citizenship will esiding in the south – as many of my friends do.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Willow.

    “It wouldn’t have been inaccurate because it would have been accurate.”

    I give up.

    “The point was about renouncing citizenship. Hence it would have been accurate for you to refer to “citizenship”.”

    But you know very well that the UK does not have citizens. The queen has subjects. That’s the constitutional position. Or did the UK cease to be a Kingdom in the last 24 hours?

    “What do Henry and Billy think is the meaning of the second IRA statement?”

    I am profoundly depressed at the unwillingness of all the major players to do what is necessary for peace and stability. I am profoundly depressed at the willingness of some to threaten the future out of sheer bloody pique, and at the zeal of others to see calamity so that their unchanging cynicism might be vindicated.

    For the first time in well over a decade I am losing hope for the future. What is at stake here is the future, and the question really, is whether we are ready for peace. Sadly, recent events, statements, actions and reactions have seriously dented my faith. This IRA statement is the latest depressing staging post in a spiral headed the wrong way.

    As a society, do we deserve peace? Probably not.

  • The Dog

    I don’t know if either of the IRA statement – once read in deatil – and indeed the responses of Sinn Fein – require that much clarification.

    Nowhere does it say that the IRA ceasefire has ended.

    ONe of the key commentries is around – SF spokesperson making it clear that they would not interpret IRA statements – and in particular sayoing that they would not be a conduit between the governments and the IRA.

    This is welcome.

    Sinn Fein have a pretty large mandate – some 340,000 acros the island let them stand on that and that alone – which is after all what many political opponenets have been asking for.

    And then let the governments deal directly with the IRA to resolve those issues directly between themselves.

    None of which deals with the fact that we were near a deal in December that would have seen a total end to the issue of arms and activities and importantly a new mode.

    Also it would have seen policing progressed.

    This is being lost amid the crap about the Northern Bank.

    P.S did anyone see Sproule on RTE last night repeatedly saying that they had no evidence – time to get some real coppers to do the job.

  • cg

    “Why didn’t you tell us that earlier and save all the arguing?”

    Willow I told you on the original thread that my Father was from the 26 counties I also told you my mother was from the north. Being born in the north doesn’t make you a British citizen.

    BTW willow there is no such thing as ROI citizenship only Irish citizenship. On my passport it says Ireland not ROI, Country of birth/origin says Ireland and county says Armagh.

    “you think it might be relevant to mention that you were born in the south of southern parents”

    That’s the problem Jacko, I’m not. I suggest you re-read the relevant post.

    This all started when certain posters thought they had the the authority to declare me a British Citizen before finding out details.

    It doesn’t matter what anybody says you can’t make Henry or anyone else in the 6 counties a citizen by declaring them one.

    Citizen=”A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection of a state or nation”

    I doubt very much if many nationalists in the North owe loyalty to the British state unless it’s the sdlp we’re talking about 😉

  • Henry94

    slug9987

    Placing to one side the sterile discussion about citizenship,

    Well OK but you’re going to leave willowfield wondering about my Birth Cert.

    what do Henry and Billy think is the meaning of the second IRA statement?

    Either they are bluffing in which case they look very stupid indeed or they are serious and are contemplating a return to war.

    In either event I think the Sinn Fein leadership should consider ditching.

  • slug9987

    Thank you Billy.

  • willowfield

    The Dog

    I think that makes it clear that Irish citizens in the north have the right to claim and enjoy their Irish citizenship and not have any other citizenship imposed upon them.

    It doesn’t make it clear at all. It just says both governments confirm people’s rights to hold both British and Irish citizenship. It doesn’t mean ROI citizens in NI are not also UK citizens. That would require legislation.

    HOwever, none of this undermines the right to exclsuively hold Irish citizenship in the north or conversely UK citizenship will esiding in the south – as many of my friends do.

    That right is only possible by paying £81 to renounce citizenship.

    Billy P

    But you know very well that the UK does not have citizens.

    I don’t know that. On the contrary, I know that it does have citizens. Stop making stuff up.

    The queen has subjects. That’s the constitutional position. Or did the UK cease to be a Kingdom in the last 24 hours?

    Being a kingdom does not mean there are no citizens. Stop being silly. You’re a strange one.

  • cg

    “But you know very well that the UK does not have citizens. The queen has subjects. That’s the constitutional position. Or did the UK cease to be a Kingdom in the last 24 hours?”

    I thought so too Billy but when I researched the relevant law i.e. British nationality act 1981 I found that the law was even more ridiculous than I first thought, they have citizens and subjects. Contradictions in terms but then again look at who you’re dealing with 😉

  • slug9987

    Henry

    Thank you for giving your assessment – a serious situation, then. I don’t know how the IRA could be ditched by SF or what a ditching would look like.

  • slug9987

    CG You are right. I seem to recollect that there is a thing called subject status but its not for people in the UK but a special status that commonwealth people outside the UK can apply for if they want. I am not sure though.

  • willowfield

    cg

    Willow I told you on the original thread that my Father was from the 26 counties I also told you my mother was from the north.

    But you didn’t say she was born in the South, which was the key piece of information. Why did you choose not to reveal this fact? It would have saved a lot of argument. (Although Henry94, bizarrely, is still claiming not to be a UK citizen, despite being born in NI of NI parents.)

    Being born in the north doesn’t make you a British citizen.

    No-one said it did. But it does make you a British citizen if one of your parents is a British citizen. And if one of your parents was born in NI before 1983, then you’re a British citizen.

    BTW willow there is no such thing as ROI citizenship only Irish citizenship.

    But it’s citizenship only of ROI, not NI. That’s why I refer to ROI citizenship.

    On my passport it says Ireland not ROI, Country of birth/origin says Ireland and county says Armagh.

    It’s still only an ROI passport, though.

    This all started when certain posters thought they had the the authority to declare me a British Citizen before finding out details.

    We asked the details immediately. You refused to give them. You’ve only yourself to blame.

    It doesn’t matter what anybody says you can’t make Henry or anyone else in the 6 counties a citizen by declaring them one.

    No, but Parliament can.

    I doubt very much if many nationalists in the North owe loyalty to the British state unless it’s the sdlp we’re talking about 😉

    You need to look at the legislation for the definition of what it means, not your dictionary. Somebody said you were training to be a lawyer. On this evidence you’re not going to be very good.

    Henry94

    Well OK but you’re going to leave willowfield wondering about my Birth Cert.

    Go on, tell us why you don’t have a birth certificate.

  • willowfield

    cg

    I thought so too Billy but when I researched the relevant law i.e. British nationality act 1981 I found that the law was even more ridiculous than I first thought, they have citizens and subjects. Contradictions in terms but then again look at who you’re dealing with 😉

    How is it a contradiction in terms?

  • Henry94

    slug9987

    I think a declaration by the Sinn Fein leadership that they were no longer willing to meet the IRA and a motion at an Ard Fheis declaring membership of the party incompatible with IRA membership would do the trick.

    As a Sinn Fein voter I support the building of an all-Ireland party dedicated to unity by peaceful democratic means.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Willow.

    You haven’t actually dealt with anything I have said. What ever.

  • willowfield

    As a Sinn Fein voter I support the building of an all-Ireland party dedicated to unity by peaceful democratic means.

    Why do you defend the Provo death squads, then?

  • cg

    “Why did you choose not to reveal this fact?”

    Because it doesn’t make a difference to me, my mother is as much Irish as my father is. No British imposed border will ever change that.

    “We asked the details immediately. You refused to give them. You’ve only yourself to blame.”

    You did not but merely reiterated your position that I was a British citizen.

    “Somebody said you were training to be a lawyer. On this evidence you’re not going to be very good.”

    LOL, you’ve been taking to David Brew 😉

  • willowfield

    Billy

    I did deal with what you said. See my 2.29pm. You’re a strange one, all right!

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    I don’t defend any death squads. I want to see the IRA disband and decommission.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Willow.

    Slowly, finally, the realisation is dawning. You are a piss-taker extraordinaire. Hats off to you.

  • willowfield

    cg

    Because it doesn’t make a difference to me, my mother is as much Irish as my father is. No British imposed border will ever change that.

    But you said your mother was born in the South, like your father, so why are you differentiating between the two.

    Also, whether it makes a difference to you is irrelevant. Your failure to reveal the key fact that your mother was born in the South meant that the argument could not be concluded.

    You did not but merely reiterated your position that I was a British citizen.

    No. I said you must be a UK citizen if you were born in NI of at least one UK citizen parent. You refused to state that these criteria did not apply to you, therefore giving the impression that you were a UK citizen.

    LOL, you’ve been taking to David Brew 😉

    Well, if you use a dictionary for your definition, rather than the relevant legislation, your clients will be in trouble.

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    I don’t defend any death squads. I want to see the IRA disband and decommission.

    Well, that’s good. But you have, on other threads, defended the PIRA.

    Billy P

    Slowly, finally, the realisation is dawning. You are a piss-taker extraordinaire. Hats off to you.

    Not sure what you’re up to, Billy. You claim I didn’t answer your points. I pointed out that I had, and even gave you the time. Then you say I’m a “piss-taker”. Why do you say this?

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    you have, on other threads, defended the PIRA.

    Example?

  • slug9987

    Henry94,

    You close your 02:41pm with a great vision for Sinn Fein. But its a profound change, so would require more than trick by resolution. The resolution would have to be deep, believable and real. Otherwise the rest of us (and we don’t have to be your enemies) might end up giving it the same level of credence that Adams gets when he ways he was not in the IRA.

    The question I have been thinking about is whether this vision for Sinn Fein emerge, with the aims you endorse, before the present leaership has stood aside? Adams and McGuinness are widely believed to be involved in both IRA and Sinn Fein. They have at least another 10 years in them and they are liked by their voters. I can see the vision you have for Sinn Fein but only after another 10-15 years.

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    Tell us why you haven’t got a birth certificate and I’ll look out an example.

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    I have a birth cert. Just not a British one. Now an example please of me defending provo death squads.

  • Henry94

    slug9987

    I don’t think such a change is even possible without the leadership of Adams and McGuinness. They are the key people.

  • willowfield

    So were you born in ROI?

    (Will get back soon with an example.)

  • Henry94

    I was born in Armagh.

  • willowfield

    So, if you were born in Armagh, why have you not got a British birth certificate? Or are you just trying to be clever by claiming that a birth certificate from Armagh is not British?

    PS. Can’t be arsed trawling through threads, Henry. So I can’t provide an example. Sorry.

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    If you won’t come up with an example then the birth-cert is off the table.

  • Edgylee

    This thread has degenerated into the usual whataboutery, with he IRA getting away in the confusion – unchallenged. I contend their second statement attempts to clarify how serious they think everyone else should take them. Kind of stamping their little foot because no-one’s listening. Everyone else is supposed to be scared for ‘the process’ and make soothing noises.

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    What if I retract the comment?

  • maca

    Now i’m curious where you got your birth cert Henry, did you get it in a Lucky Bag? ;-))

  • slug9987

    “If you won’t come up with an example then the birth-cert is off the table.”

    Do not underestimate the importance of this.

  • El Matador

    Scum.

    The people of Ireland will not stand idly by and let pseudo-republicans bring this country to its knees.

    Ni thiocfaidh bhur la. Tiocfaidh AR la when the 32 county inclusive Republic of Ireland is achieved, and people of all religious and political hues can feel safe.

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    What if I retract the comment?

    I think you should retract it because it’s wrong not in exchange for any concession.

  • Brian Boru

    I am a Republican
    but am nausiated by the IRA’s attention-seeking crap statements. They are clearly under pressure.
    I say to them unequivocally:
    STOP PLAYING THE HARD MAN…
    submit to legality.
    now for a wank

  • willowfield

    If Henry94 was born in Armagh, then he will be able to obtain a British birth certificate and present it along with his £81 cheque to renounce his British citizenship.

  • willowfield

    Oops, he doesn’t need to obtain one. He already has one. He just needs to bring it along with his cheque.

  • Last Sane Man in the Asylum

    Much as I hate to wade into this pedantry, I think cg is right about the UK having both citizens and subjects. Am I right in thinking that the first paragraph of the GFA states that the sovereignty of NI lies with the people of NI? If so, surely the Queen is not our sovereign and we are therefore CITIZENS of the UK state rather than SUBJECTS of it’s monarch.

  • willowfield

    Yes, of course we’re citizens.

    “Subject” doesn’t mean anything anyway. You are a subject of a republic just as much as of a kingdom: you are subject to the laws of the republic, in the same way that you are subject to the laws of a monarch.

    In a constitutional monarchy, there is no distinction with a republic, since the laws are not made by the monarch, but by parliament – same as in a republic.

    Subject and citizen mean the same thing in both a republic and a constitutional monarchy.

  • James

    Pendants hang.
    Pedants should.

    I think the time is ripe for yet another discussion on whether Ireland is the proper name for the state with 26 counties south of Newry.

  • puddinhead

    Children please,
    Sensible discussion please. All this citizen nonsense is so boring . Sensible blogging please.

  • alex s

    Where have all the usual Sinn Fein apologists gone, are they in hiding?

  • PaddyCanuck

    By the Willowfield you are an Irish Citizen by birthright, whether you like it or not!

    When my son was born in Canada, I sought clarification, did he need to register in some way to claim Irish citizenship, no was the reply, he is a citizen by birthright.

    So can I call u a dirty Fenian Bas***d!?

  • Davros

    Where have all the usual Sinn Fein apologists gone, are they in hiding?

    They way they have been harassed in the past couple of days, are you surprised alex ?

  • Henry94

    alex s

    I haven’t noticed anybody missing for more than 24 hours. I think it’s very amusing the way some of the 24/7 posters think they are winning an argument when their opponents have business in the real world.

  • willowfield

    Paddycanuck

    By the Willowfield you are an Irish Citizen by birthright, whether you like it or not!

    I have the right to be an ROI citizen by virtue of having been born on the island of Ireland, but I am not assumed to be one unless I perform some function of ROI citizenship, e.g. obtaining a passport. I have not performed such an act of citizenship, and I do not regard myself to be an ROI citizen, therefore I am not one.

    When my son was born in Canada, I sought clarification, did he need to register in some way to claim Irish citizenship, no was the reply, he is a citizen by birthright.

    Yes, he has the right to be one by birth, but he doesn’t have to be.

  • PaddyCanuck

    So does the same apply for British Citizenship Willow?

    MK

  • willowfield

    The law on British citizenship has already been set out above.

    The answer is no. You are a British citizen if you were born in the UK of at least one UK citizen parent. Unless you renounce it by paying £81.

  • PS

    What do you consider to be the greatest proof of citizenship WF?

    And would you dispute that my nationality is Irish, not British?

  • willowfield

    I’ve no opinion on the “greatness” of proof of citizenship.

    And I don’t know anything about you, so I can’t answer your second question. I’ve no idea what your nationality is.

  • PS

    Ok then, would you dispute that somebody born in the six counties could term their nationality as Irish, rather than British and what do you see as the difference between nationality and citizenship?

  • willowfield

    Ok then, would you dispute that somebody born in the six counties could term their nationality as Irish, rather than British

    They can “term” their nationality whatever way they want. Peruvian. Martian. It’s up to them.

    … and what do you see as the difference between nationality and citizenship?

    Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably in law, but my view is that the former is identity and the latter is a legal status.

  • PS

    And do you accept a legal document such as a passport as proof of this “legal status”?

  • willowfield

    It’s not up to me to accept legal documents: I don’t determine citizenship.

    But, yes, of course a passport can be used as proof of citizenship!

  • IJP

    Whom does the IRA represent, exactly?

  • Unmasked

    Don’t be fooled,

    This whole thing has been planned by Sinn Fein/IRA for political gains.

    They need to able to go out to the electorate and play the victim as usual.

  • Davros

    Came across this earlier Paddy –

    Just as the nationality of individuals in the narrow legal sense represented by the entry in a passport is a mechanism for controlling movement between states, so too nationality in the wider sense is deeply concerned with the ideological justification of both the movement and settlement of populations.

    R. V. Comerford. 2003. “Ireland: Inventing the Nation“. London: Hodder Arnold. Page 9.

  • PS

    Just as the nationality of individuals in the narrow legal sense represented by the entry in a passport

    Irish passport therefore meaning Irish nationality.

    nationality in the wider sense is deeply concerned with the ideological justification of both the movement and settlement of populations.

    Ancestors have been firmly settled in Ireland leaving me Irish on both counts! Not that i’d needed to be convinced!