Toys Pram out of the throwing

Re-arrange the above words to make a well known saying – ‘IRA’s patience tried to the limit’ – I’m sure there’ll be more on this tomorrow.

  • GavBelfast

    Ah, diddums.

    I think a lot of us have lost our patience – the overwhelming majority of us who don’t vote for the other side of a coin of ruthless killing machine.

    What about us?

  • Keith M

    Jeez Pete, you kinda re-heated my post of 9.12 on the “Sinn Fein knew of plans..” thread!!

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    The IRA’s weapons commitment meant very little in any case with the absence of a commitment to end criminality and punishment attacks. This statement doesn’t surprise me, nor does it strike me as a particularly big loss.

  • peteb

    I prefer “imaginatively interpreted”, Keith 😉

  • Harris

    Christ

    “This statement doesn’t surprise me, nor does it strike me as a particularly big loss.”

    It would if the IRA started deploying bombs in your backyard.

  • PaddyCanuck

    IRA Statement in Full
    This is the IRA’s statement in full:
    “In August 1994, the leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann announced a complete cessation of all military operations.

    We did so to enhance the democratic peace process and underline our definitive commitment to its success.

    That cessation ended in February 1996 because the British Government acted in bad faith when the then British Prime Minister John Major and Unionist leaders squandered that unprecedented opportunity to resolve the conflict.

    However, we remained ready to engage positively and in July 1997 we reinstated the cessation on the same basis as before.

    Subsequently, we honoured the terms of our cessation with discipline and honesty, despite numerous attempts to misrepresent those terms by others.

    Since then – over a period of almost eight years – our leadership took a succession of significant and ambitious initiatives designed to develop or save the peace process.

    Those included:

    Engaging with the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning.

    Agreeing that independent inspectors could inspect the contents of a number of IRA dumps, allowing regular re-inspections to ensure that the weapons remained secure and the reporting of what they had done both publicly and to the IICD.

    Setting out a clear context for dealing definitively with the issue of arms.

    Acknowledging past mistakes, hurt and pain the IRA has caused to others and extending our sincere apologies and condolences for the deaths and injuries of non-combatants caused by us.

    Agreeing a scheme with the IICD to put arms completely and verifiably beyond use.

    Implementing this scheme to save the peace process by putting three separate tranches of weapons beyond use on 23 October 2001, 11 April 2002 and 21 October 2003.

    Seeking to directly and publicly address unionist concerns.

    In 2004 our leadership was prepared to speedily resolve the issue of arms, by Christmas if possible, and to invite two independent witnesses, from the Protestant and Catholic churches, to testify to this.

    In the context of a comprehensive agreement we were also prepared to move into a new mode and to instruct our volunteers that there could be no involvement whatsoever in activities which might endanger that agreement.

    These significant and substantive initiatives were our contributions to the peace process.

    Others, however, did not share that agenda. Instead, they demanded the humiliation of the IRA.

    Our initiatives have been attacked, devalued and dismissed by pro-unionist and anti-republican elements, including the British Government.

    The Irish Government have lent themselves to this. Commitments have been broken or withdrawn.

    The progress and change promised on political, social, economic and cultural matters, as well as on demilitarisation, prisoners, equality and policing and justice, has not materialised to the extent required, or promised.

    British forces, including the PSNI, remain actively engaged in both covert and overt operations, including raids on republicans’ homes.

    We are also acutely aware of the dangerous instability within militant unionism, much of it fostered by British military intelligence agencies.

    The British/loyalist apparatus for collusion remains intact.

    The political institutions have been suspended for years now and there is an ongoing political impasse.

    At this time it appears that the two governments are intent on changing the basis of the peace process. They claim that ’the obstacle now to a lasting and durable settlement … is the continuing paramilitary and criminal activity of the IRA’.

    We reject this. It also belies the fact that a possible agreement last December was squandered by both governments pandering to rejectionist unionism instead of upholding their own commitments and honouring their own obligations.

    We do not intend to remain quiescent within this unacceptable and unstable situation. It has tried our patience to the limit. Consequently, on reassessment of our position and in response to the governments and others withdrawing their commitments:

    We are taking all our proposals off the table.

    It is our intention to closely monitor ongoing developments and to protect to the best of our ability the rights of republicans and our support base.

    The IRA has demonstrated our commitment to the peace process again and again. We want it to succeed.

    We have played a key role in achieving the progress achieved so far. We are prepared, as part of a genuine and collective effort, to do so again, if and when the conditions are created for this.

    But peace cannot be built on ultimatums, false and malicious accusations or bad faith.

    Progress will not be sustained by the reinstatement of Thatcherite criminalisation strategies, which our ten comrades died defeating on hunger strike in 1981.

    We will not betray the courage of the hunger strikers either by tolerating criminality within our own ranks or false allegations of criminality against our organisation by petty politicians motivated by selfish interests, instead of the national need for a successful conclusion to the peace process.

    Finally, we thank all those who have supported us through decades of struggle.

    We freely acknowledge our responsibility to enhance genuine efforts to build peace and justice. We reiterate our commitment to achieving Irish independence and our other republican objectives.

    We are determined that these objectives will be secured.”

  • Davros

    Good can come of this. All the participants had painted themselves into corners and tied themselves in knots over arms.

    What was needed was an unambiguous statement that the War is Over and an unambiguous committment to end criminality and violence …not just against the security forces. That is still the only way out of this mess.

  • PaddyCanuck

    That unambiguous statement was already on the table Davros:

    “In 2004 our leadership was prepared to speedily resolve the issue of arms, by Christmas if possible, and to invite two independent witnesses, from the Protestant and Catholic churches, to testify to this.

    In the context of a comprehensive agreement we were also prepared to move into a new mode and to instruct our volunteers that there could be no involvement whatsoever in activities which might endanger that agreement.”

    That offer was rejected, in the absence of photographs.

  • peteb

    PC, the IRA did not agree to the proposals that were part of the, supposed, ‘comprehensive’ deal.

    All that last statement you have quoted amounts to is their version of what they would have been prepared to say – a version issued after that ‘deal’ collapsed, and a version that falls short of the statement that was part of the proposals.

  • Davros

    No it wasn’t. There has never been an unambiguous statement released that “The War Is Over”. It’s important that people around the world realise that.

    Plenty of waffle from them such as you quote – which in fact accepts what SF are denying – that the IRA are PRESENTLY engaged in “activities which might endanger that agreement” , “They Haven’t gone away, you know”, plenty of veiled threats.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Thats all well said and done, but the fact is the only thing that stood in the way of the ‘Comprehensive Agrreement’ was a demand for photographs, videos, sackcloth and ashes et al.

  • puddinhead

    They are truely living up to their name. SF/IRA are the only people capable of sorting this whole mess out. Not the Irish,british ,sdlp ,uup dup, or anyother political party in the island of ireland or for that matter the world!
    Ourselves Alone…………….. Very very true

  • Davros

    the fact is the only thing that stood in the way of the ‘Comprehensive Agrreement’ was a demand for photographs, videos, sackcloth and ashes et al.

    Again that is untrue. The IRA would not give a commitment to end beatings, shootings and other criminal acts.

  • peteb

    No, PC, that’s not a fact, it’s your opinion.

    and as both the Irish and British Governments have been making clear over recent weeks there are other, more important, issues involved.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Paddy,

    You seem to subscribe to the view that the IRA merely to disarm without photographs. What or who do you believe is stopping them?

  • dave

    Clutching at straws comes to mind. SF/IRA politically have nothing to say or offer so they go to the fall back position of letting the “military wing” of their terrorists organisation issue a threat.

    Personally I would like to see the provos go back to “war” which is nothing more than selecting the weak to be terrorised, we have suffered from their terrorism for 35 years and am sure that we can withstand anything they throw at us…then…. I would like to see just what the Americans will do and I will cheer when the 101st airborne drop into Andy town and kick some ass.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Untrue, when did you become the almighty, who can strike down the veracity of someones intent, just by posting to this blog in bold!

    Where is your evidence of this refusal…

    And Davros, please do not strike me down…

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Harris, the likelihood of the IRA planting a bomb in anyone’s back yard has not changed – it is still “quite likely”. I remember thinking in disbelief when the Canary Wharf bomb went off “surely they would not be stupid enough to hand the whole thing to Paisley on a plate”. Well, they were, and they’ve been stupid again over this Northern robbery business.

    I don’t care about the IRA’s guns or decommissioning and never had. I care a lot more about a real commitment to stop crime and punishment beatings, a commitment the IRA singularly refused to give during the last phase of the recent negotiations.

  • PaddyCanuck

    They will not disarm in a way in which they will lose face, they will do it as part of a comprehensive agreement.

  • alex s

    “We will not betray the courage of the hunger strikers either by tolerating criminality within our own ranks…”

    What was the shooting of Garda McCabe during a robbery that the IRA themselves admited hadn’t been sanctioned by their leadership, the IRA are making fools of themselves.

  • Davros

    Let’s not get carried away Dave – there’s a lot of decent people in West Belfast and other ‘republican’ areas such as S Armagh. This is posturing. Remember Saddam’s victory parade after Gulf War One ? Same sort of thing. When push comes to shove they’ll remember that their men are rusty and the British troops they would face are young and are getting experience abroad while their guys are worrying about their holiday homes in Donegal and their pensions.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Alex,

    That sentence can only be an acknowledgement that criminal acts are not in any sense a betrayal.

  • peteb

    Actually Davros, it’s, arguably, more about distracting attention from Sinn Féin.. not that they’ve been under pressure at all though.. oh no.

    How the Irish Government react will also be interesting – the Downing St spokesman quoted on the BBC seems like a good guide to both Governments’ reaction.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Paddy,

    They say they are prepared to disarm with no photos. Nothing prevents them from doing so. The most obvious explanation of their failure to do so is that they are liars. All else is spin.

  • Davros

    Pete – I was in part thinking that this is an attempt by SF and the IRA to assert that they are still calling the shots (bad pun) … just as Saddam tried to pretend to the Iraqi people that he was in control after GWI. When bullies are faced down they back off pretending that they are the ones who didn’t want the fight …

  • peteb

    That isn’t how SF are likely to try to play it, Davros.. they’ll be responding to the statement and trying to point out how that pressure has been counter-productive.

  • alex s

    I was watching the news on RTE, the presenter, a rather attractive female refered to Gerry Adams as “the president of the IRA” as they say, out of the mouths of babes….

  • cg

    “British troops they would face are young and are getting experience abroad”

    LOL, I’m sorry Davros but you obviously haven’t seen too many British troops lately

    You have two types, the young ones who are scared shitless of walking around republican areas and then you get the arrogant ones who are slightly older.

    Unfortunately for the Brits the majority is the arrogant sort who have the audacity to sunbathe in fields where they could easily be plugged. They have gotten well and truly rusted and have a tendency to take too much for granted. So when it comes to rusty the British army are rusty in relation to their military nature however their ability and to harass and intimidate is still very much in tact.

    This however is besides the point as I don’t believe the IRA will go back to war. That said the struggle has not ended and will not end until a 32 County Socialist Republic has been established.

  • Davros

    That said the struggle has not ended and will not end until a 32 County Socialist Republic has been established.

    Saying that the struggle hasn’t ended isn’t a problem if they say the war is over. There’s a similar confusion/misinterpretation over the word ‘ jihad‘ which also means struggle.

  • cg

    Davros have you asked the Brits to declare that their war is over?

  • Davros

    I thought your priority was to make peace with the unionist/protestant community ?

  • JD

    Wasn’t there talk of a “spectacular” a few weeks back? Can’t remember who floated the idea…

  • cg

    “I thought your priority was to make peace with the unionist/protestant community ?”

    It is but you have asked for the IRA to declare its war over and I am simply asking if you also require the Brits to declare theirs over as well?

  • Davros

    It is but you have asked for the IRA to declare its war over and I am simply asking if you also require the Brits to declare theirs over as well?

    If that’s what it takes 🙂

  • cg

    I have no problem with that 😉

  • Davros

    Now all I have to do is get your people to agree to swear an oath to HM and it’s sorted LOL

  • cg

    You seem to misunderstand my position, I have no problem with you asking both the Ra and the brits to declare their war over, doesn’t necessarily mean I will be making that call 😉

    As for your oath of allegiance, the only oath I will ever make is to a 32 county republic 😉

  • Davros

    Keith and Pete – you have made the big time!

    political commentators said it did not mark a threat to return to war but instead was tantamount to the IRA throwing their toys out of the pram

    Peace process crisis as IRA withdraws weapons offer

  • mogo

    Dave, in fairness to the screaming eagles the chaps who are alleged to have carried out the Northern didn’t look overly rusty.

  • aquifer

    I guess tha guys had to get the guns off the table before Paisley croaked and there was a real prospect of a deal.

    How about a bold imaginative step from the Unionists to copperfaster the RM’s isolation. Cut the Orange Order out of the structure of the Ulster Unionists, or call for RTE to be broadcast in the North, as a mark of respect for the legitimacy of the ROI state and for the aspiration for irish unity peacefully pursued.

    Sorry there may be a problem with the RTE idea in that Ulster Television don’t like state funded competition to show up the shoddyness of their programme output. Perhaps some patriotic entrepreneur can buy the RTE programming and tag on their own advertising.

    Are you out there David Montgomery.

  • Davros

    None of the targets were armed in the bank job mogo.
    Security has been stepped down as part of the peace process. In effect they had a free run. That would all change.

  • Davros

    Aquifer, if only Unionism had the openness of mind to make such a move.

  • ulsterman

    Oh happy days. The hated GFA is now officially dead. The IRA was suposed to be disbanded years ago. Time for the SAS to go on the offensive and wipe the murdering scum out.

    Oh happy days.

    Ulster has won,
    With the DUP in charge the Union is secure.
    The Pope and Dublin are on the run,

    God Save the queen.

  • davidbrew

    As for your oath of allegiance, the only oath I will ever make is to a 32 county republic 😉

    hmmm, not if you want to practise law in NI or indeed not if you want to get married- perhaps neither is an option that attracts you? :0)

  • El Matador

    It’s no surprise that the IRA have done this. It just shows their real intentions- if they don’t get their own way, they issue a veiled threat to return to blowing up people. Well done- you’re real big lads.

    If these people had any care, they would listen to the people of Ireland.

    They had no intention to disarm and end the ‘war’. They simply offered it knowing the bank raid was about to happen, and were intending to withdraw the offer as soon as the finger was pointed at them, and then try and pin the balme on the Brits and the southerners when the whole thing went pear-shaped.

    Disgusting.

  • Keith M

    cg “That said the struggle has not ended and will not end until a 32 County Socialist Republic has been established.”. Now I can understand why SF/IRA needs almost €40m. The re-enforced plastic required to give wings to pigs doesn’t come cheap.

  • Lafcadio

    I’ve just caught up with this thread, and cg’s post above is absolutely priceless! The one where he bristles at the thought that IRA men aren’t the hardest men on the planet.. (yeah well my dad’s bigger than your dad..)

    I rather suspect that if you gave the “brits” currently serving in Iraq the choice, they would take the swaggering overweight village bullies of NI any day..

  • aquifer

    32 County Socialist Republic Eh. That means the revolutionary party elite get all the big houses, and any business with a turnover of over 20,000 Euros must quit the country.

    Maybe the toffs in Killiney and North Down should organise some collective security.

  • Alan2

    “our leadership took a succession of significant and ambitious initiatives designed to develop or save the peace process.”

    meaning we got Trimble to jump first and then we left him to hang….ha ha and he did it twice….ha ha

    Ulsterman…get a life.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Surely this means that the IRA have merely reverted to the position that everyone else with guns has steadfastly maintained. Not a big deal really.

  • Davros

    I tend to agree with you pat. Boils down to trust – as Unionists and I suspect the Governments didn’t believe it was a genuine offer not a lot has changed at home. Gesture politics directed outside of our archipelago ?

  • davidbrew

    “That unambiguous statement was already on the table Davros:[quotes statement]..
    …In the context of a comprehensive agreement we were also prepared to move into a new mode ” etc etc-paddycanuck

    “new mode”, as in “bankrobber” is hardly unambiguous. Davros is right as to the minimum needed to reheat this unappetising goulash

    BTW, Davros-are you so named because of your inability to climb stairs, like your Dalek minions, especially on Friday nights ? :0)

  • Davros

    Davros was adopted, as I recall, after larking about
    on ATW via Fox-Lox and Goose-Loose. I used to use Mise Eire which caused a bit of confusion LOL

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    trust is indeed the issue, for nationalists last years negotiations were about seeing if the DUP would at last back the democratic institutions in a more honest and forthright manner. They had of course sat in the Assembly hoping no one would highlight the hypocricy of their stance, but it was time to do away with their lying facade.

    Nationalists had not crowed too much at the inability of the DUP to renegotiate the GFA, but merely wanted them to publicly recognise that they had democratic responsibilities and would they stand over those responsibilities. The fact that they chose the integrity of the IICD as a diversion convinced many nationalists that the, ‘ not a fenian about the place,’ attitude is still prevalent in modern (sic) unionism.

  • cg

    “hmmm, not if you want to practise law in NI or indeed not if you want to get married- perhaps neither is an option that attracts you? :0)”

    LOL, you may have got me on the law but regards marriage, I have seen more than my fair share fall apart to even consider getting married.

    I will elect to live in sin instead as it is more finically conducive to myself given the current legal position on co-habitation 😉
    ………………………………………….

    Lafcadio

    “cg’s post above is absolutely priceless! The one where he bristles at the thought that IRA men aren’t the hardest men on the planet”

    I never said or insinuated that, perhaps it would be wiser to attack the posts I have actually written rather then the imaginary ones you wished I post.

  • Lafcadio

    cg – you’re correct, you didn’t say that, mea culpa..

    it does make me smile though, to think that British soldiers who have been fighting in Iraq would be “scared shitless” to walk through a republican area in Belfast..

    As for attacking the post that you did write (sorry in advance for some pedantry..):

    “You have two types, the young ones who are scared shitless of walking around republican areas and then you get the arrogant ones who are slightly older” – as uninformed and simplistic caricatures go, that one takes some beating..

    As for the next paragraph, the shortcomings in your prose do a pretty good job at obscuring your meaning here – “..the majority is..”, “..So when it comes to rusty the British army are rusty..”, ..”in tact..”

    “..the struggle has not ended and will not end until a 32 County Socialist Republic has been established..” I hope you are digging in for a long wait – have you been to the “unoccupied 26” recently??

  • cg

    Lafcadio

    “it does make me smile though, to think that British soldiers who have been fighting in Iraq would be “scared shitless” to walk through a republican area in Belfast..”

    Again you are making unfounded assumptions

    Firstly I never mentioned Belfast. When I referred to republican areas I of course meant other republican areas as well especially the rural ones.

    Secondly I never mentioned Iraq when taking about the British soldiers who are scared shitless. I am talking about British soldiers whose first tour of duty is taking place in republican areas. I was also very clear to show that this percentage of soldiers represent a minority. My assessment is also corroborated by evidence by soldiers themselves made to many different authors.

    “as uninformed and simplistic caricatures go”

    How am I uninformed, I was brought up in the most militarized area of Western Europe. I have had 20 years to observe the mentality and attitude of the Brits in republican areas. I am of course referring to the state of British soldiers who operate in republican areas now, Post ceasefire.

    Seeing as you seem to view yourself as more informed on this subject than myself would you tell me why you believe this to be the case?

    As for the 26 counties my family come from there and I also work there, so yes I am there often

  • willowfield

    Others, however, did not share that agenda. Instead, they demanded the humiliation of the IRA.

    According to Martin McGuinness, it is not possible to humiliate the IRA. So such demands should not have presented an obstacle.

    British forces, including the PSNI, remain actively engaged in both covert and overt operations, including raids on republicans’ homes.

    And? Do they think that republicans should be immune from the law?

    The British/loyalist apparatus for collusion remains intact.

    How?

    The IRA has demonstrated our commitment to the peace process again and again. We want it to succeed.

    Disband, then.

  • willowfield

    cg

    It is but you have asked for the IRA to declare its war over and I am simply asking if you also require the Brits to declare theirs over as well?

    “The Brits” weren’t at war. Unless you refer to Iraq.

  • cg

    “The Brits” weren’t at war”

    You seem one of the very few people to believe that.

    Brigadier Gordon Kerr of FRU believed the Brits were at war against the IRA.

    Stop living in denial willow

  • willowfield

    I’m not in denial. There was no war. There were terrorist campaigns and, obviously, the state had to protect society from those terrorists and take action against them. But that’s not a war.

  • cg

    So even when the British government accept it was a war you will not

  • Lafcadio

    cg – oh, now you put it like that, I see you’re right; British soldiers do in fact just fall into two groups, “young and scared shitless” or “old and arrogant”. Sorry I mistook your careful insights for simplistic caricatures – I don’t know how that happened!

    Re the “unoccupied 26”, how compatible do you believe is an aspiration for a “socialist republic” with irish sensibilities post celtic tiger?

  • cg

    “cg – oh, now you put it like that, I see you’re right; British soldiers do in fact just fall into two groups, “young and scared shitless” or “old and arrogant”. Sorry I mistook your careful insights for simplistic caricatures – I don’t know how that happened!”

    I didn’t say all British soldiers

    It’s about time Lafcadio that you stopped adding unfounded assumptions and added your own insight. I asked how you were able to slate my suggestions and you haven’t posted anything that makes me believe you aren’t trying to dodge the issue.

    As for the 26 counties and the Celtic tiger

    Don’t believe everything you read in the right wing press. The Celtic tiger merely increased the gulf between rich and poor. The rich got rich and the poor poorer. There is indeed a majority in the 26 counties who wish to see a left wing alternative and not Bertie’s brand of so called socialism.

    The health care is a disgrace due to the two-tier system. Consultants get paid their money yet don’t do half the work of junior doctors. Alot head up to Black Rock and get private fees as well.

    Money is being squandered left right and centre.

    Irish sensibilities aren’t just as sensible as you may believe.

  • Lafcadio

    cg – let’s not go off on one here; my first post was an inference which on second reading didn’t entirely follow on from what you had said – I acknowledged that, and if I didn’t apologise, I do so now.

    Wasn’t aware that I had made any “unfounded assumptions”. I did however point out that your lazy broad-brush statements about British soldiers were simplistic caricatures, because they are.

    I’m not trying to dodge anything; I’m not really qualified to comment on the nature of the British armed forces – I work in a bank, not in the army – but I imagine that, like any population of people you care to look at, among them there will be cowardly and brave, bullying and bullied, arrogant and not.

    I don’t read the right wing press, but having lived and worked in Dublin in 2002, I can say that if there is a majority in favour of a “left wing alternative” they keep it well-hidden under their Hugo Boss shirts..

  • willowfield

    cg

    So even when the British government accept [sic] it was a war you will not

    What are you going on about? Don’t be so ridiculous! The Government doesn’t “accept” that it was a war!

  • cg

    Willow its very simple

    Decommissioning of IRA weapons – Transcript of a Statement by the Prime Minister Tony Blair 24 October 2001

    “Question

    Prime Minister, are you convinced that as far as the Provisional IRA are concerned THE WAR IS NOW OVER and if so, how will the British Government reciprocate today’s move.

    Prime Minister

    “Well, it is very important that people understand, and I hope that the significance of today’s move that people have a complete commitment to democratic and peaceful means, and of course if that is so, that allows us to make our response to that, and that has got to be a generous response as well because we want to create a situation in which Northern Ireland is a community which, whatever the differences very particular to Northern Ireland, people can live with normal policing, normal security measures, live normal lives. And I believe that today’s move is obviously a very, very significant step in allowing them to do that.”

    It was a war and everyone actively involved as protagonists accept that.

  • cg

    “I don’t read the right wing press, but having lived and worked in Dublin in 2002, I can say that if there is a majority in favour of a “left wing alternative” they keep it well-hidden under their Hugo Boss shirts..”

    No hard feelings Lafcadio 😉

    Do you still live and work in the 26 counties?

    If they say a week is a long time in politics then 3 years is an aeon. 😉

  • willowfield

    cg

    What is the significance of the quotation you posted? Blair doesn’t mention anything about a war. He just witters on in the usual politico-speak about … nothing really of much meaning.

    It was a war and everyone actively involved as protagonists accept that.

    No, they don’t! The only people who try to say it was a war are the nationalist and loyalist terrorists because they think it offers some kind of justification for their heinous crimes.

    Wise up!

  • cg

    “The only people who try to say it was a war are the nationalist and loyalist terrorists”

    Which one is Gordon Kerr then?

  • willowfield

    Never heard of him.

    You never explained the significance of the quotation.

  • cg

    Willow

    Brigadier Gordon Kerr is the former FRU commander and the current military attaché to Beijing.

    People have constantly asked if the war is over. People ask if the IRA’s war is over ergo it was war.

  • willowfield

    Don’t be so ridiculous!

    When people ask if the “war” is over they’re just asking the PIRA if THEIR “war” is over (i.e. have they stopped their murder campaign). They’re not talking literally!!

    They want to know – in the PIRA’s terms – whether their campaign has ended. That doesn’t mean they think it was a proper, legal “war”!!

    You’re clutching at straws with that one!!

  • cg

    Willow

    You still haven’t answered my post of 09:35

  • willowfield

    Gordon Kerr, from your description, is neither a nationalist nor loyalist terrorist. And I doubt very much he thinks there was a “war” in anything other than a rhetorical sense.

    Nice try!

  • cg

    Willow

    Gordon Kerr clearly said that Britain was at war with the IRA so either it was a war or he is a loyalist terrorist.

    Both scenarios are true either way

  • willowfield

    Don’t talk nonsense. The mere fact of someone saying Britain was at war does not make it true!! It’s no more true for Gordon Kerr (even if he was talking in a literal sense, which I doubt) than for you.

    What a pathetic argument.

  • cg

    I seem to have touched a nerve

  • Jimmy Sands

    At the risk of pedantry, the word has become devalued to the point where it is meaningless. Lawyers refer instead to “armed conflict” instead. NI wasn’t one. Of course what you choose to call it is a matter of personal taste. It just doesn’t mean anything.

  • willowfield

    That’s true, Jimmy.

    But cg is clearly trying to convey something with his use of the term (presumably that in NI there was a legally-defined “armed conflict” in which the PIRA was a belligerent, therefore enabling him to excuse their crimes).

    That was not the case. And the fact that some soldier used the term “war”, or that cg uses it, or Gerry Adams, or Johnny Adair, does not alter that fact.

  • IJP

    It was a war and everyone actively involved as protagonists accept that.

    That’s a blatant lie.

    Interesting how SF likes to use ‘everyone’ or ‘the people’ when in fact they mean ‘we’!

  • willowfield

    Hardly a surprise for a “movement” that claims to represent “the Irish people” with only about 15-20% support [and made the same claim with as little as 1-2% support in the past)!