Union of a different kind annoys Paisley Jr…

CONGRATULATIONS to Ulster Unionist adviser Steven King, who recently married his partner in Canada, according to the Mirror (no link). In the same story, the DUP’s Ian Paisley Jr has strongly criticised the whole concept of a civil partnership – something King defended on the BBC’s Hearts & Minds not so long ago.

Paisley Sr was so incensed by the idea of legislation on ‘gay marriage’ being extended to Northern Ireland that he demanded and got a postponement of the vote on the Civil Partnership Bill during the Leeds Castle talks last year. Looks like Paisley is still trying to ‘Save Ulster from Sodomy’

  • mickhall

    Has the earth shaken, has the sky fallen in? No, two people who I presume love each other, are getting on with their lives as a couple. It is as it should be. Good luck to them.

  • Rebecca Black

    Typical neanderthal DUP attitude, hardly even worthy commenting on.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Congratulations to Steven King and his new husband, I hope they have a long and happy life together.

    Paisley Jnr has demonstrated his calibre for all to see with this latest intervention. Also, I think it’s a pity that Trimble has declined to comment on the marriage. He should congratulate
    King robustly – he should help defend his protege from the homophobic slurs of this semi-literate thug.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Rebecca.

    That’s an insult to neanderthals. Hatred of Catholics is one thing – I suppose more than most it’s the DUP’s raison d’etre – but it’s helpful to remember from time to time that the DUP also has homophobic, misogynist, xenophobic and racist wings.

    The reality is fast emerging that these days, Paisley Jnr is closer to a personification of the DUP than Paisley Snr is: a charmless, humorless, nihilistic, splenetic, vindictive, hate-driven uber-hawk whose sanguinity is as total as his lack of class.

    One wonders how the defectors from “liberal” unionism feel when they hear the true voice of the ascendant traditionalists?

    Davidbrew? Are you squirming?

  • ulsterman

    Is this some sort of warped joke?. I thought he wrote books.

    As for two poofs marrying. Well they can marry in Canada but what a waste of money. Their sham so called marriage will never be recognised in Ulster.

    God Save The Queen.

  • maca

    Congrats to King & partner. Just a shame they need to travel to Canada for it.

  • Peter Reavy

    Good luck to him, indeed. And congratulations are also due to King on the little plug he got from Natan Sharansky as a “true defender of freedom”.

  • Butterknife

    As Ulsterman rightly said God save the Queen(s). However i see a problem if he comes back home and decides to seek ‘rights’ for his husband. We must comply with EC law but we still have no domestic legislation in place…

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Ulsterman.

    “Their sham so called marriage will never be recognised in Ulster.”

    Actually, with legislation pending at Westminster chances are same-sex marriage will be legal throughout the UK before the year is out. Bravo.

    And that of course includes two thirds of Ulster.

    (Maybe it should just be called Ulst? Or would that sound too German?)

    Maybe the only way to save Ulster from Sodomy would be to throw in our lot with the rest of Ireland, where same sex marriages are still illegal…

    Rome one way, sodomy the other. It’s the lash for Ulster’s God-fearers.

  • slug9987

    An exceptionally low quality discussion.

  • Keith M

    Civil partnership is one thing, marriage is something very different. I can understand why civil partnership might be necessary, when the state interferes with people’s rights to pass on property when they die and does not treat people as individuals in matters of taxation etc. The right of civil partnership should exists for hetrosexual and homsexual couples, and even for co-habiting siblings (as suggested by the Conservative Party).

    Marriage on the other hand is only appropriate for hetrosexual couples. You have to appreciate why marriage exists and why the state recognises marriage to understand why I say this. It isn’t a matter of equality or discrimination, it is about finding a way of recognising people’s relationships without weakening (more than it has been) the sanctity of marriage.

  • maca

    Keith
    Why do you think allowing gays to marry would weaken the sancity of marraige? Should it not make any difference really?

    I’m not familiar with the way it works but I think “legal union” should only be recognised by the state, not marraige. IMHO.

  • James

    Rome one way, sodomy the other. It’s the lash for Ulster’s God-fearers.

    Rome, Sodomy and the Lash.

    The Pogues’ll getcha for that, fella.

  • TroubledTimes

    Everyone is entitled to their sexual preference. However marriage is an age old institution where a man and woman come together and are joined by God. Marriage is too sacrosanct an institution to be meddled with. The purpose of marriage is to build a family.
    I am not anti gay as I think that they should have equal legal rights as married couples have. I wish Mr King and his partner well, I hope they have the same rights as married couples have in the eyes of the law. Marriage is the sacred joining of man and woman and should not change.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    James.

    I was just gonna ask Slug if he wasn’t a fan.

  • Davros

    I agree with Maca, congratulations to Mr King and haste the day when people such as him don’t have to travel thousands of miles.

  • Mario

    Regardless of the messenger, I think he speaks for a good portion of the population. We tend to have open minded and liberal friends who think and are tolerant like us, but that is not where the vast majority of the so called mainstream is at. I personally see no problems with two people marrying each other, I mean, the main problem is probably going to be gay mortgages instead of gay marriage, but, unfortunately the rest of the world does not see it that way, These are intolerant times.

    On the bright side, if they were in that bastion of Arab democracy called Saudi Arabia, they would be stoned by a gang of underemployed international guest workers.

  • mogg

    If it’s about the “sanctity” or “sacredness” of marriage then the State should keep out of it. We should have civil partnerships and religious marriages and keep them totally separate.

    And if it truly is about “sanctity” or “sacredness”, what possible damage could there be to a marriage by two gay people calling their union a “marriage”.

    Similarly I don’t believe that the terms “holy communion”,or “baptism” should have a LEGALLY restricted meaning. If you go through the ritual prescribed by your faith that should suffice. If someone else not of your belief claims that they have been baptised – but you do not think it worthy of the name – you can have the smug stisfaction of knowing that they are wrong and you are right.

  • maca

    TT
    “Marriage is too sacrosanct an institution to be meddled with”

    Divorce.

    “If it’s about the “sanctity” or “sacredness” of marriage then the State should keep out of it. We should have civil partnerships and religious marriages and keep them totally separate.”

    That’s my thinking Mogg.
    Marraige should be a personal and private thing.

  • TroubledTimes

    I agree. Marriage is an act of God. Divorce is not. Marriage is a gift from God where a man and woman combine as one. No one should alter this arrangement.

  • mogg

    “Marraige should be a personal and private thing.”

    I think it is social too.
    I just think that if we appeal to the law or the state to exclude others from enjoying something that we enjoy we need better arguments than “sanctity” or “sacredness”.

  • Mario

    If Michael Jackson can marry, than surely god has nothing to do with this, or he has a bad sense of humour.

  • David Vance

    Trust Canadians! Must be something to do with the cold up there. Marriage is a sacred institition between one man and one woman. I appreciate all good liberals have to coo approvingly when gays “marry” but then again, who pays attention to them?

    I wish Steven well, and trust he and his partner are happy – as any decent person would – but on this one, Dr. Paisley is quite right. It is obscene to call it marriage.

    By the way, will Steve’s Party Leader be advocating that gay marriage be instititionalised in NI? Or is this a point of difference? Just wondering….

  • PaddyCanuck

    “Trust Canadians! Must be something to do with the cold up there”

    Correction, most canadians live well to the South of Belfast, and long live the Charter of Rights, and Freedoms!

  • Mario

    Marriage is a sacred institition between one man and one woman.

    Hmmm. So Wacko Jackson falls within the sacred? Where does it say so? Why must people interpret old metaphors as rules for living one’s life. IF you want to live within those rules, than fine, that is your choice, but why make it so that others who do not wish to be part of any religious sillyness have to obey the laws of some old hebrew legend called the bible.

    Should our states not be secular? How are we any different than the Iranian mullahs?

  • maca

    TT
    “I agree. Marriage is an act of God. Divorce is not…”

    Marriage, an act of god? Says who? And which god?
    And don’t quote the bible because marraige predates the bible and any words spoken by JC.

    “where a man and woman combine as one. No one should alter this arrangement”

    Is marraige between a brother and sister acceptable? Why not?? It used to be but it changed. Why not allow it to make another change?

  • James

    “Trust Canadians! Must be something to do with the cold up there.”

    Dear Lost In Donacloney,

    Victoria has the closest climatic match to Ireland that you will find in the world. Coilte goes to the Okanagan in BC for the seed stock they use to reforest Ireland because of the close climatic match.

    FYI only, you needn’t visit.

  • Davros

    C’mon James, NI’s bad but at least we don’t have wall-to-wall Canadians!

  • David Vance

    James,

    I think Canada is a lovely country and Canadians are great people, having been there many times. I assume you aren’t Canadian.

  • Mario

    Well I think that this time, David’s Roman Catholic Canadian friends see eye to eye.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/31/international/americas/31canada.html?oref=login

    I guess when it comes to sillyness, Canadians can be just as silly.

  • Robert Keogh

    As the wag said: “Legalise same sex marriages, homosexuals have every right to be as miserable as the rest of us.”

    *ta-bump-dump*

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Keith M, the readership here might be interested if you declared your personal interest in this matter.

    As a sort of quasi-libertarian I don’t accept that the state has any business regulating, recognizing or controlling either interpersonal relationships of any kind between freely consenting adults, or for that matter that age-old religious institution called “marriage” – and I’ve yet to hear a sensible case from anybody suggesting that the state should have a role here. Talking about the sanctity of marriage in any case is an absolute joke and simply doesn’t stand up – in 2000 there were 180,000 marriages and 155,000 divorces (source : http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/ukstats.html) and the number of marriages taking place has halved since the 1960s. Now that the majority of marriages seem to end up in divorce and half as many people are bothering to do it anyway, what sanctity does marriage have in the modern world in any case ?

    “Marriage is an act of God. Divorce is not.”

    It’s this sort of obscene religious nonsense that is at the bottom of all these problems, threatening people to stick with each other or God will get annoyed. I’m convinced that the end result of people making statements like this is that people are more likely to lose their faith than they otherwise would have been. People are better educated and informed than before, and they’re better able to make sensible evaluations of things rather than be frightened into sticking with a bad or abusive marriage because a chap with a dog collar says it’s God’s will.

  • Robert Keogh

    Marriage is an act of God.

    Who is this god fella and why should he have any input into my life or the lives of my fellow humans?

  • maca

    I don’t know much aboot Canada, but I used to watch the the Beachcombers, Danger Bay and Due South, does that could for anything, eh? How zit goan, eh?

  • aquifer

    Congratulations. Civil partnerships are a great idea. I hope you are both very happy. How do the parties line up on this one. What we need is some political triangulation on hot issues to get people off this stale orange green axis. Not that I’m trying to tell you your job Steve.

  • Robert Keogh

    I used to watch the the Beachcombers, Danger Bay and Due South

    OMG! The Beachcombers I used to love that when I was a kid. I had completely forgotten about it. Thanks for reminding me maca you’ve revived alot of amusing memories.

  • Robert Keogh

    What we need is some political triangulation on hot issues to get people off this stale orange green axis.

    Well said that man. I endorse your sentiment but I doubt that’s going to change in the next few generations.

    I think the French approach where the Churches run the marriage bit, the Government runs the civil unions and the two are completely unrelated. Seems like a sensible approach and lets the religious and non-religious do whatever they want.

    Why do the religious insist on forcing their views on others? It’s not like homosexuals are forcing the religious to enter into same-sex unions. Sheesh. Live and let live.

  • exBangorBoy

    As I live in the city in which Mr King most likely got married (Toronto), I thought I would chime in with my C$0.02.

    I, too, congratulate Mr King on his marriage and wish him the best. I hope he beats odds of the heterosexual divorce rate (50%). It is a shame he has to travel to my fair country to exercise a basic civil right, but in time Ireland (both north and south) will catch up to those out in front on this issue.

    The Canadian federal gov’t will be introducing legislation this week in Parliament that seeks to legalise same-sex marriage across the nation. Currently seven provinces and one territory have legalised it, and even if the federal legislation fails to pass (although it is looking as though it will, narrowly) gay marriage will stay legal in those jurisdictions as it is the provinces that actaully regulates marriage (one of the quirks of Canadian federalism).

    I suppport the federal govt in their legislation but ultimately I would like the French solution of separating the church and state functions on this. And, as someone noted above, in Canada it is the Catholic Church who are the most vocal and visible opponents of the proposed legislation.

    Mr Paisley Jnr’s reaction doesn’t surprise me. When you are living in the 19th Century the modern world can seem like an awfully frightening place. Many of the posters on Slugger bemoan the lack of political leadership amongst the major parties in N Ireland. My impression from semi-regular visits to the province is that N Ireland will continue to “wallow” in a political limbo until a new generation of leaders emerge who recognize that N Ireland will not prosper until the tenets of a pluralistic and tolerant society become the bedrock values of all communities.

    JMHO – YMMV.

    By the way, for other Ulstermen and women contemplating Mr King’s lead, they may be interested in consulting this site.

    And one final thing, there is an interesting survey called “Fire and Ice” that measures your views on a variety of social issues. At the end of the survey it shows where you are on a quadrant.

    One tip: when it asks for post code or zip code, you could use M5W 1E6 (the postal code of the CBC HQ in Toronto, seen as left wing by right wingers) or for zip code you could try 90210 …. 😉

    Good day, eh, to fellow hosers….

  • exBangorBoy

    Hmmm. not sure why my hyperlinking didn’t work, but the URL for the site I referred to is:

    http://www.idointoronto.com/

    And the “Fire and Ice” survey can be found at:

    http://fireandice.environics.net/surveys/fireandice/main/fireandice.asp?surveyID=1

  • James

    Davros

    Wall to wall? All wee Daleks should visit Moose Jaw sometime before they get out of gargoyle school for the definition of emptiness. That wheelchair thingie will take off like a slingshot dragster because the place defines FLAT.

    Mario

    They got some wild and crazy guys. Things got a bit silly when you went to court with the Doukhobors whenever a communal group came down from BC and ran afoul with the redneck version of the Yankee law. Ah, the 50’s …… one big party and nobody came.

  • cg

    Congratulations to Peter and husband

    Who the hell gave people the right to decide who can marry and who can’t?

    If both people are in love then why does it matter?

    This is yet another example as to why every state should be secular.

    As a so called RC who has parents divorcing I know that this “sanctity of marriage” stuff is rubbish.

    Peter King shouldn’t have to go to Canada to marry his partner, are they harming any one?

  • exBangorBoy

    James –

    Eastern Canadians have a joke about Moose Jaw: “It’s not the middle of nowhere, but you can see it from there.”

    [Probably why a lot of Westerners don’t like Easterners!]

  • maca

    Speaking of Canada, ya know the worst thing to come fram Canada, eh? Gavin Crawford. Yes, he just aboot pips Celine Dion as the worst thing to ever come from that fine country.
    I actually thought the Canadians had a talent for comedy, what with people like Jim Carrey, Mike Myers, Dan Aykroyd, John Candy, Norm MacDonald, Bruce McCulloch and a host of others coming from there. But then the have the gall to unleash Gavin Crawford on us … bastards!

  • Davros

    Canada ? mitigation – Neil Young. After that I struggle 😉

  • Christopher Stalford

    I have no comment to make about Steven King as a person – how he chooses to live his life is his own concern. What I would point out however is that every Ulster Unionist Member of Parliament (bar one) voted against the Civil Partnership Bill. Does Mr. King’s “lifestyle choice” now place him at odds with the people paying his wages?

  • Butterknife

    God forbid Christopher Stalford, next you will be suggesting that the DUP are discriminating when it comes to who they give employment to.

    As for Canadian shows, can anyone remember Degrassi Junior High?

  • mucky

    Good luck to ’em.

    Here’s a quote from Ian Paisley jr

    “I find those sorts of relationships immoral, offensive and obnoxious, and I think the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland feel the same, and have expressed the view that they feel that”

    I expect that he’ll do the honourable thing and apologise for giving the impression that the people of Northern Ireland teach their children that homosexual relationships are immoral, offensive and obnoxious and that they have expressed this to Mr Paisley. At least that’s what I read into it….

  • exBangorBoy

    >>Canada ? mitigation – Neil Young. After that I struggle 😉

    Joni Mitchell? kd lang? Sarah Maclachlan? Allanis Morrissette? Avril Lavigne? to name just a few….

    On the non-distaff side, Leonard Cohen, Robbie Robertson, etc…

    >>Gavin Crawford

    I didn’t realize that he was on TV on your side of the pond. Does he have his own show, or is he part of an ensemble? I’ll admit that he is a bit of an acquired taste. Overall, per capita compared to the US, Canada seems to produce a goodly number of decent comedians and female singers [OK, Celine Dion is the exception that proves the rule…. 😉 }

  • maca

    “Does he have his own show, or is he part of an ensemble?”

    The Gavin Crawford Show.
    To demonstrate just how bad it is: i’d actually watch the local version of the “Lyrics Board” before i’d watch the GCShow!

  • maca

    “Does he have his own show, or is he part of an ensemble?”

    The Gavin Crawford Show.
    To demonstrate just how bad it is: i’d actually watch the local version of the “Lyrics Board” before i’d watch the GCShow!

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    The best show from the mid 1970’s was The Singing Ringing Tree.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Does Mr. King’s “lifestyle choice” now place him at odds with the people paying his wages?

    Do any of yours? If they did, would you be expected to leave the DUP? What he chooses to do is of no consequence to his job. Its not “liberalism”, its tolerance.

  • Shergar

    1.What is the big deal about Steven King getting hitched? The psychology of this is interesting. Usually the loudest critics of homosexuality are in denial about their own sexuality.
    2.The hypocrisy of Ian Og ranting on about homosexuality etc is nauseating. Just the previous week he was attempting (with zero success) to take the moral high ground in regard to President McAleese’s remarks. He should be ashamed of himself, but of course because of his gene pool he isn’t.
    3. What was Trimble’s wedding present?

  • Alaster

    Ian Paisley has a warped view of Christianity. The bible teaches tolerance of other’s faiths and beliefs.

    Whilst I (and Christianity) do not agree with homosexuality, I am willing to tolerate it if that is what such people want. Homosexuality cannot be recognised by religious ceremony but it can by law if one lives in a democracy. Democracy is supposed to represent all of society. Reading the article above makes me wonder if Northern Ireland is a real democracy, if Mr Paisley can stop a Civil Partnership vote just because HE doesn’t like it!

    Mr Paisley is now an old man and quite frankly when he passes on I will feel little sadness on his passing. He is a warped, simplistic, bible-bashing, anti-christian dictator who has fuelled conflict in Northern Ireland for 30 years and we will all be much better off without him!

    ALASTER

  • Tim Roll-Pickering

    I hope that the next time a DUP member gets caught up in a sex scandal Paisley will show a little consistency – he hasn’t before!

  • Canadian Lad

    It’s a sign of ignorance to generalize in any sense, especially based on nationality. Canada, like every other country, is full of individuals.

    ball not man please A.U.