Be Careful What You Wish For,…

UTV reports Arrests due after Northern Bank robbery. In the Sunday Times Liam Clarke claims that
“Both the PSNI and gardai observed meetings between republicans they suspect planned the robbery and senior Sinn Fein figures, including Gerry Adams.”

From UTV :
Gardai are expected to co-operate with the PSNI to carry out a series of raids in border counties.

It follows an massive intelligence gathering operation, which include taped telephone conversations that indicate IRA involvement.

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    This makes ‘operational sense’. I mean if you want to make progress in this investigation, like Hugh Orde tells us he does, the best way of catching those responsible is to have it leaked to the press so they can make arrangements to be on call when the police come calling.

    This is such a farce. I mean where else in the world do the police announce that they’re going to arrest people and name them through a newspaper?

    It’s clear from the list in the paper that they’re in Kaiser Sose territory – ie round up the usual suspects.

    Forget the hype, where’s the evidence Mr, shortly to be returning to civilian life, Orde?

  • ShayPaul

    Shit, better go off and bury the loot.

  • ricardo

    Looks like Hugh Orde just can’t win with this one.

    Complaints because no arrests have been forthcoming, and now complaints that arrests are forthcoming!

    Oliver, what precendent has been set for revealing evidence to the media before trial? Surely in as sensitive a situation as this, to reveal evidence at such an early stage, prior to any arrests, could be wildly prejudicial and possibly prevent a fair trial? Isn’t that the normal way of things?

    and at the end of the day that’s what we all want, isn’t it?

  • ricardo

    a fair trial that is!

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Leaking this to the press is a pretty stupid idea, but then again it could be just the press making things up.

    Is it true that surveillance evidence such as a taped telephone conversation is not admissible as evidence here ?

  • ShayPaul

    ricardo

    Please repost that more clearly, I can’t understand your point.

    Surely Orde should arrest with evidence that’s all – like everywhere else ?

    Why is it complicated here ?

    Man robs bank, police catch man, police give evidence man goes to jail.

    Here we have a whole political media show in which the head of police plays in a punch and judy show.

    Keep police out of politics and politics out of policing.

    After all that’s one of the main reasons we are in this mess, the unionist masters of the undemocratic state-let mismanaged the place and manipulated policing as a political football for so long that the minority lost all faith in the state, which thereby lost its legitimacy ……

  • Davros

    Heresy Shay, You are accepting that Partition was legitimate in the first place LOL

  • ricardo

    Shay, my posts are both clear enough.

    Why on earth would anyone expect the police to reveal evidence to the media prior to a trial or arrest of any suspects? ( As SF have requested).

    There is no precedent for this, it is not how your average trial operates, clear enough as i say.

  • Davros

    Surely Orde should arrest with evidence that’s all – like everywhere else ?

    One tiny problem with that my nationalist friend 🙂
    Orde is dealing across jurisdictions. As there is a need to work with the police force in a seperate sovereign state, Hughe Orde and a dozen of Ireland’s finest, the PSNI, cannot simply drive across the border to “dunbombin”, Sean Russell Drive, Dundalk Co Louth and arrest people like P O’Neill … Or do you think he can do that Shay ?

  • ShayPaul

    “Heresy Shay, You are accepting that Partition was legitimate in the first place LOL”

    Explain ….?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    This story is now getting more and more ridiculous by the day. So ‘sources’ have leaked a story to friendly elements of the media that raids are to take place and those suspected are expected to facilitate their own arrest by waiting around. One wonders do any of these journalists find any sense of embarrassment at the absolute shit they try and spin to the public as news and facts.

    Of course the garbage from Clarke is par for the course. We have meetings that were observed and of course Adams had to be there, that all fits in nicely with the Ahern and SDLP line that senior Shinners had to know of the story.

    Lies, lies and more lies by a media that should at this stage feel a sense of shame. Lets go back to the News Letter front page lie of the IRA men involved in the robbery selling 100k bundles of traceable cash to loyalists for one third the value. Why hasn’t any of this cash turned up? Surely the loyalists and criminals involved could have been traced and some of the money turned up.

    When you analyse these stories one at a time, one can only come to the conclusion that the journalists concerned are being fed a line that they are quite happy to print, given that they have a sympathy with their handlers and ‘sources’. Or given the nature of the story they can simply make it up as they go along.

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    Neither is it normal, as Hugh Orde admitted in his press conference, for blame to be assigned to a particular group/gang in advance of arrests. He said in his press conference that this wouldn’t happen ‘in any other part of the UK.
    Seeing as he has assigned blame and, no doubt, we will shortly be presented with a repitition of the blame assignation by the Independent Monitoring Commission, any reasonable person, with an open mind, would be asking the same questions. Where’s the evidence?
    Mainly there’s a widespread belief that Hugh Orde has no evidence – he’s like the emperor who had no clothes. All we have is his word to go on and, sorry to say, that is just not good enough.

    It won’t – as the NIO and some within the Southern government hope – stop SF’s growth or halt the SDLP’s rapid demise. As the IT MORI poll shows it will probably stall it momentarily before it begins to grow again.

    Professional – non political – policing is what’s required in the six counties, no more no less. Hugh Orde showed promise that he might deliver that but it seems he has gone over to the dark side…..

  • ulsterman

    Off course partition was legitimate. A majority of Ulster Protestants did not want anything to do with Rome Rule.

    Had there been a UI in 1921 the history of Ireland would have been vastly different. The Protestants would have had a quarter of the Dail seats. Devalera would have never been PM or president. Infact the Unionists would probably have eventually aligned with FG thus shutting FF out of power forever. There would have been no Papist constitution.

    But it did not happen.The U
    ion today is more secure than ever.

    God Save The Queen.

  • ShayPaul

    Davros

    Aside from the comical sound bytes have you any legitimate argument for contesting that police should arrest with evidence like anywhere else ?

  • Davros

    Do you accept that This case is complicated by the cross-border component Shay ?

    “Heresy Shay, You are accepting that Partition was legitimate in the first place LOL”

    Explain ….?

    Well, when you wrote “the minority lost all faith in the state, which thereby lost its legitimacy” you were conceding that the state WAS legitimate.
    Splendid…a real Mitchel moment.

  • ShayPaul

    Davros

    “Heresy Shay, You are accepting that Partition was legitimate in the first place LOL”

    Explain ….?

    Well, when you wrote “the minority lost all faith in the state, which thereby lost its legitimacy” you were conceding that the state WAS legitimate.
    Splendid…a real Mitchel moment.

    Sorry davros, but no.

    Partition was not legitimate on democratic grounds.

    The state-let was established and did exist – that is a fact, it blew all hope of legitimacy by mismanagement and sectarianism as I have pointed out.

    I was born in the state-let and as I have pointed out on numerous occasions would be quite happy to see the state-let continue to exist if that was the best way to unite the people and improve the lot of all of us. I have no dogmatic position on that.

    I do however believe that a United Irish republic is the best vehicle for achieving the peace prosperity and evolution of all on the Island, that is a legitimate and respectable political aspiration.

    Now back to the point :

    “Have you any legitimate argument for contesting that police should arrest with evidence like anywhere else ?”

  • Fraggle

    ulsterman, that’s funny.

    FG and FF didn’t exist in 1921.

    Your right about the constitution though. The catholic church wouldn’t have had such as strong input.

  • Davros

    The state-let was established and did exist – that is a fact, it blew all hope of legitimacy by mismanagement and sectarianism as I have pointed out.

    That’s NOT what you pointed out Shay – you wrote that the state “lost its legitimacy”. It could only lose what you consider it had in the first place 🙂
    A Mitchel moment, have you the courage to admit that you made a mistake ?

  • Keith M

    Despite the best attempts of Olvier, Pat and Shay to portray the situation difeently, there is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about the way this investigation has been carried out. It is quite normal for the police to indicate what group of people they are investigating without providing the evidence, lest they aid the criminals in escaping or working on an alibi.

    There is nothing unusual about the police saying that arrests are forthcoming. The very same thing happened just a week ago in this county ina high profile murder case. SF/IRA supporters are simply trying to create another smokescreen.

    The REAL story here is were those involved in the raid in contact with Adams, McGuinness etc while they werte preparing the heist. If the answer is yes (and telephone cals would be pretty conclusive) then the situation is even worse for SF/IRA. This means that Adams, McGuinnes knew all about the raid in advance (as Ahern has said) or the Laurel and Hardy of SF/IRA are no longer in control. Either way it’s “another fine mess” for SF/IRA.

  • Davros

    Your right about the constitution though. The catholic church wouldn’t have had such as strong input.

    That’s arguable Fraggle – if a populus of 40% in NI couldn’t prevent OO influnce, why would a populus of 20% in an all-Ireland Dáil have had any more influence ?

  • spirit-level

    Ulsterman
    Can you explain to me why you are so excited about the Queen? She can’t save the Union.
    If the British Gov’t voted to abandon Ulster she’d have no power to stop that???
    Waz your point?

  • Vavid Dance

    With respect this is the equivalent of two bald men fighting over a comb. The United Kingom remains united and is strengthened by the decision of the opportunist Eire Provisionals to cease their hopelessly militarily inept and morally reprehensible criminal campaign (forced, as they were, to do so by incessant and increasingly effective so-called loyalist interventions and by effective infiltration by the security services) – thus have the rebels conceded United Kingdom rule and nothing will disrupt that for the next two hundred years and more. Having out-manoeuvred them completely the government should have nothing to do with the EPs’ corrupt mafiosi ‘representatives’ and hammer them into the dirt once and for all.

    Eire – admit defeat, forget your imperial ambitions and mind your own bloody business begorrah !!

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Pat, nobody with any sense would believe the kinds of things Clarke chooses to write in the ST. What we have to focus on in this robbery when it comes to the media is the number of people – including long-time nationalist-leaning commentators who have often spoken favourably on Sinn Fein – taking the line that they have chosen to. They could all be making it up, or they could all be taking a feed straight off the NIO, but the simplest conclusion (and therefore the most probable according to occam’s razor) is that the journalists have all been speaking to their own sources and their sources are all coming back with the same information.

    When it comes to Orde you have to ask yourself what risks you think the guy is prepared to take with his own career. Are the Gardai going to collaborate with him to fabricate or cover up any real evidence about this case ? Are the police board and the police ombudsman all going to get hoodwinked ? He’d have to be sure of all those things.

  • spirit-level

    Vavid wake up geeza!
    Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly, Further Devolution planned.
    99.999% of the Planet want to see a United Ireland.
    Remember King Canute tried to stop the tide..
    UI is a mathematical certainty , just a question of time and logistics.
    Don’t worry you’ll lose nothing ..you’ll still be Brits living in a UI, and like so many Brits enjoy life and flourish in many parts of the post-colonnial world. ie India Nigeria Hong Kong.
    Whats the Biggest problem you have with the idea?

  • ShayPaul

    Keith M

    As Davros won’t answer the question will you ?

    Have you any legitimate argument for contesting that police should arrest with evidence, like anywhere else ?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    KeithM,

    ‘Despite the best attempts of Olvier, Pat and Shay to portray the situation difeently, there is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about the way this investigation has been carried out.’

    In relation to the robbery I have only speculated on the lies of the media and the spectacular ineptitude of the PSNI.

    Roger,

    I don’t believe the media have the ‘sources’ to this robbery that they are letting us believe. If it wasn’t for the ubiquitous ‘sources’ then very few of them could justify their salary at the end of the month.
    As for Orde I believe the Gardai have little of relevance to say. As Mc Dowell stated he is relying on Ordes’ view alone for his assessment on the robbery, thus he and Ahern seem to be on different wave lengths. Mc Dowell has made no reference at all to any intelligence the Gardai may have.

    We are being asked to take this massive leap of faith that the PSNI and Gardai had all this intelligence on meetings and what was discussed. Yet this robbery still was able to take place. If people choose to believe his flood of lies and planted sources then i’m afraid that is a reflection on them.
    I prefer to wait on evidence and I am prepared to wager now that no one will be ever charged in connection with the actual robbery.
    What we will get is these same journalists in a few months giving an exclusive on how they can reveal the ‘facts’ on the robbery. It will be crap then just as it is crap now.

  • Henry94

    Pat

    My fear is that innocent people will be arrested and in the current climate of hysteria it will be portrayed as a triumph for the PSNI. The charges will later be reduced and dropped like in the “Stormontgate” case.

    Kieth M

    The REAL story here is were those involved in the raid in contact with Adams, McGuinness etc while they werte preparing the heist. If the answer is yes (and telephone cals would be pretty conclusive) then the situation is even worse for SF/IRA.

    Will you feel you have been misled by the media if no such evidence emerges or will you put it behind you and believe the next tall tale as easily.

    I remember a phone transcript was published of a conversation between a British minister and martin McGuinness in which it was obvious that McGuinness was working on the assumption that the call was being recorded.

    I doubt very much that he or any other Sinn Fein leader would ever assume anything else.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Henry, in the Stormontgate business a Sinn Fein member was in fact caught with lists of prison officers, and that discovery resulted in a huge amount of money being spent to relocate those officials for security reasons. To this day it remains unclear why the PSNI weren’t able to achieve a successful prosecution out of that, but this doesn’t mean republicans were innocent of any wrongdoing.

    Pat, it’s fair enough to say that the media are making everything up, but how do traditionally nationalist and pro-SF commentators stand to gain from switching sides ? The same people pretty much all backed SF during the Stormontgate thing. It just doesn’t all add up.

    As for McDowell, he has to base his view – publicly at least – on the PSNI’s assessment because the actual crime occurred in their jurisdiction. That doesn’t mean there was no “Irish dimension” (!) to the crime. I’d say it would be misguided to assume that McDowell hasn’t spoken to any of his own people about it.

    Personally I flat don’t believe Clarke’s story about meetings being observed and his namedropping isn’t any more impressive now than it ever has been. Although, the story about the police allowing the robbery to go ahead even when they knew about it is the kind of thing that might be expected to benefit the republican side of the argument.

  • Henry94

    Roger

    To this day it remains unclear why the PSNI weren’t able to achieve a successful prosecution out of that, but this doesn’t mean republicans were innocent of any wrongdoing.

    It means exactly that in a legal sense and there is no other sense in which we can really talk about it.

    Stormontgate wasn’t about some alleged list. David Trimble said it was ‘bigger than Watergate’ and a climate of hysteria was fostered by leaks to the media from “security sources” making the most outlandish claims. On the back of all that we lost the institutions. But there was nobody convicted of anything. There wasn’t even a trial.

  • Keith M

    ShayPaul “Have you any legitimate argument for contesting that police should arrest with evidence, like anywhere else ?”. I am not answering for Davos, my position is that once there is sufficient evidence gathered, arrests, charges and a court case should follow. In a crime of this size (both in terms of the value and the size of the gang involved), it is important to take your time and gather enough evidence otherwise people can flee from one juristiction to another making progress more slow.

    Henry 94 “Will you feel you have been misled by the media if no such evidence emerges or will you put it behind you and believe the next tall tale as easily.” Of course I will feel misled by the media. Now if SF/IRA members are convicted will you feel misland by ADams, McGuinness etc?

  • Henry94

    Kieth M

    My position from the start has been that I believe nothing or nobody without evidence and that the burden of proof lies with those making allegations.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Henry,

    correct, in all likelihood people will be charged in a blaze of publicity and then 18 mths to 2 years down the line the charges will be dropped. In fact a ‘source’ after the latest Policing Board fairytale session more or less admitted this.
    The people who had carried out the robbery had been identified and these were pretty serious desperadoes nothing like the people whose homes were raided pre Xmas. A tacit admission that the raids then were an attempt to get well known republicans into the picture as soon as possible rather than any intelligeence or evidence.
    There are comparisons between this and Castlereagh in that to this day the police investigation has appeared inept and unprofessional and the perpetrators must be having a grand old laugh at the attempts to apprehend them.

    Roger,

    I understand what you are saying on Mc Dowell. But why has he adopted a different strategy to Ahern. Ahern stated that he was acting on Garda intelligence whereas the Minister for Justice quoted Orde, with no reference to the Gardai.
    To be fair Vincent Browne highlighted the fact that Ahern does seem to get excited at times like this and his mouth is in 5th gear while his brain is still in neutral.