Police need to produce evidence

Jimmy Burns in the FT says that British and Irish officials recognise the need for police to produce evidence to back up their allegations in the next few weeks. However this is likely to be problematic. Much of the activity associated with the heist took place in a committed Republican area, and as the Oversight commissioner notes in his latest report, there is no support for the police in such communities. Ergo, the police face a demand for evidence that can probably only arise from a community, represented democratically by Sinn Fein, which does not currently support the police. A nasty Catch 22.

  • Davros

    I’m not convinced Mick about the need to produce evidence. The damage has been done. By now it doesn’t matter if proof is or isn’t produced except in respect of convictions. Politics is about perception. Just as people can talk all they like about the lack of evidence that Ulster Resistance still exists , let alone has guns , the political reality is that the DUP have it like an albatross round their necks and the RM is damned to have this robbery round their necks. The mud has stuck.

  • ShayPaul

    Why do you conclude that evidence is not needed. That seems a hell of a quantum leap from a society based on separation of justice and state in a modern democracy ?

  • Davros

    Why do you conclude that evidence is not needed.

    I didn’t make that conclusion Shaypaul, you need to read more carefully.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Mick,
    there is no need for evidence at all as this case parallels the Castlereagh robbery. Without a single iota of evidence ‘opinion’ or should I say ‘everybody knows’ that the IRA did it. As with Castlereagh, who else could have done it?

    The fact that the Northern (on PSNI advice) is reissuing new notes is a tacit admission by the PSNI that they have little or no chance of recovering any of the stolen notes. Therefore ‘evidence’ is unlikely to be forthcoming from the PSNI.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    The PSNI do face a nasty catch 22 situation. They probably thought they were being clever by inviting the BBC et al to witness their raids on Xmas Eve. In fact the BBC arrived in Ardoyne before the PSNI did. This reinforced the belief that the raids were a piece of political theatre for wider community (unionist) consumption.

  • Davros

    Pat- I agree with your first paragraph, not so sure about where you are going with the second.

  • ShayPaul

    “Why do you conclude that evidence is not needed.

    I didn’t make that conclusion Shaypaul, you need to read more carefully.

    Posted by: Davros at January 8, 2005 12:47 PM”

    Keep it for the mushrooms Davros.

    Your post is there for all to read.

    My statement is valid regardless of the colour creed or politics of the perpetrators. The Quantum leap you make is unacceptable in a modern democracy based on the separation of state and justice.

    Where in the world is it “acceptable” to see a police chief indicate the responsibility for a crime without the requirement to elaborate with evidence?

    Keep the politics out of policing and the police out of politics.

  • Davros

    Keep it for the mushrooms Davros.

    Your post is there for all to read.

    Indeed it is Shay.

    I’m not convinced Mick about the need to produce evidence.

    NB – this does NOT state a conclusion , it voices
    uncertainty

    By now it doesn’t matter if proof is or isn’t produced except in respect of convictions.

    It’s quite clear that I am not concluding that there is no need for evidence – in fact I Clearly state that evidence will be needed for the Courts to obtain convictions…..

    So, have you the manners to admit that you didn’t properly read what I wrote ?

  • ShayPaul

    Davros

    Chill out.

    Would you like to debate the importance of evidence and my last questions rather than slide off into lecturing ?

    I apologise if you have taken offense it was not given simply taken.

  • Davros

    Shay , would you like to admit you misread my post ?
    I didn’t think you would have the manners to admit you misunderstood what I wrote.

  • ShayPaul

    Davros

    Would you like to go and boil your head ?
    It is awfully bad manners to go on as you do.
    I have clearly stated that I gave no offense, you took it. I have apologised for that result.

    These silly domination games are not why I debate on slugger.

    I repeat my point and question in the hope you will respond :

    My statement is valid regardless of the colour creed or politics of the perpetrators. The Quantum leap you make is unacceptable in a modern democracy based on the separation of state and justice.

    Where in the world is it “acceptable” to see a police chief indicate the responsibility for a crime without the requirement to elaborate with evidence?

    Keep the politics out of policing and the police out of politics.

  • Davros

    Some people just cannot bear to be proved wrong.
    My original post makes it’s own points, and that you misread it and haven’t the manners to properly apologise for unfounded criticisms reflects badly on you Shay.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ShayPaul,

    Davros is absolutely right, for the damage to be done there is absolutely no need for evidence, the trick is to turn a myth into reality and something I predicted at the ttime of the robbery.

    The people who have dripped fed a compliant media are past masters at this old game and to be honest it is not a very sophisticated operation. The audience that they are targetting ie unioists and the politcal enemies of SF are not the most questioning of people. They wanted to believe it was republicans and they were told just exactly what they wanted to hear.

    As stated Castlereagh was the perfect template. The steady drip feed, until it is the accepted wisdom that republicans did it.
    It is no secret that there are a cotorie of journalists that a outlets for ‘sources’ and ‘briefings’. At times like this they are invaluable to the security services and really earn their money.

  • ShayPaul

    Davros Man not ball.

  • Davros

    Shay (Would you like to go and boil your head ? and Keep it for the mushrooms Davros.) Paul:

    Davros Man not ball. ????

  • Davros

    for the damage to be done there is absolutely no need for evidence, the trick is to turn a myth into reality and something I predicted at the ttime of the robbery.

    You did indeed. It’s a game played by all sides these days. Politics is a dirty game.

  • ShayPaul

    Pat

    I have no problem with the points made by Davros, however before we slip into the world of myths, may I contend that rather than accept as a “fact” the inevitability of propaganda and manipulation there is another path.

    If you wish to contest rumors and myths the solution is inevitably facts and evidence. The fatalism expressed that evidence doesn’t matter is of course comfortable for all concerned. Those that have already made their minds up, and those that are convinced to be victims of a game where the dice are loaded.

    I accept neither approach, the solution is simple – reality.

    Without it we will slide into myth, are you comfortable with that ?

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Pat, get the hell down off that high-horse before you hurt yourself. Personally speaking I haven’t been drip-fed from the media. I’ve got my own reasons to believe that the republicans were behind the robbery, as do most people I know. The criteria of this operation fits the IRA more easily than it fits anyone else.

    Nobody I know has any evidence, but then again the IRA aren’t the type of organization to leave evidence lying around are they ?

  • cg

    So roger we have moved from a situation of
    Innocent until proven guilty to it’s republicans we don’t need evidence.

    And you have the cheek to talk about Pat and his high horse.

  • Davros

    I’m off for my siesta ! The Horse has a long and honourable history in Ireland, being mentioned in the cu Chullain sagas, whereas the humble Donkey was only introduced around 1800….

  • ShayPaul

    Who came across with the donkey ??

  • Davros

    Donkey cart

    The donkey cart was a small version of the Scotch cart. Donkeys were only introduced to Ireland during the Napoleonic Wars around 1800. Many horses in Ireland were bought up to be used in the war, and were replaced by donkeys brought in from Spain. Donkeys were to be found all over Ireland for the next 150 years but they were most common and best suited to the drier parts of the South and West of the country.

    Fascinating creatures.

    Two favourite sayings

    “Toes turned up like a West Cork Donkey”

    and

    ” Two things God never ment a man to see – a happy farmer and a dead donkey “.

  • ShayPaul

    A scotchman on a spanish donkey. Should have guessed.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Roger,

    hold on a second after all it is my horse. I am questioning how this story has crystallized over the past 3 weeks. I see the same cotorie of journalist who were the usual suspects during previous IRA ‘jobs’.

    You may have your own reasons for believing who did it but you are not in a position to influence public opinion the way the media are.

  • Davros

    hold on a second after all it is my horse.

    well remember , you’ll soon have to have a passport for it ! January 10! I’d hate to see you in trouble Pat. You might get away with painting it with black and white stripes ?

    Horse Passports Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2004

    The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (DARD) has made the Horse Passports Regulations (NI) 2004.

    The Regulations, which will come into operation on 10 January 2005, require all owners to obtain a passport for each horse they own. This requirement includes ponies, donkeys and other equidae, but excludes zebras.

    After 28 February 2005, a passport must accompany a horse whenever it moves to the premises of a new keeper, is sold, exported, enters competition, is used for breeding, or is presented for slaughter. This date will apply throughout the UK. Foals will require a passport by 31 December of the year of birth or by 6 months of age, whichever is the later.

    Owners should take action now to apply for a passport so that they will not be restricted in using their horse as they wish after 28 February 2005.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    CG, this isn’t a court. People establish in their mind who was responsible for something without there necessarily being any direct evidence. The circustances rule out almost everyone other than the IRA.

    Let’s talk parallels. Most republicans believe the British government were behind the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974. They don’t have any evidence, but the general thought is the loyalists couldn’t have organized such a well-planned operation by themselves. That conclusion is entirely fair, people can agree or disagree with it but the point stands. What’s the difference here?

  • abucs

    Well i guess this means further big gains for the DUP and Sinn Fein this year. And of course it covers up the fact that the two governments have failed again, so all the big players must be happy. What a mess NI is.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Pat, if a group of people maintains an armed and primed military organization with a history of organized crime as well as murder, intimidation and racketeering, then they are going to be ruled into the equation when things like this take place. That’s one of the disadvantages of not disbanding. Wouldn’t it be a bit strange if there was this huge armed organization sitting in the background and everyone avoided suggesting it was them ?

    It got so bad in Dublin a while ago that the IRA had to actually stand down a division down there. This shows that generally criminality is a big part of the IRA’s post-ceasefire repertoire even though it might not necessarily have been sanctioned.

    I think the media are reporting what people generally believe, not the other way round. I don’t think people in general have zero opinion on a subject until they read it in the papers.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Pat, if a group of people maintains an armed and primed military organization with a history of organized crime as well as murder, intimidation and racketeering, then they are going to be ruled into the equation when things like this take place. That’s one of the disadvantages of not disbanding. Wouldn’t it be a bit strange if there was this huge armed organization sitting in the background and everyone avoided suggesting it was them ?

    It got so bad in Dublin a while ago that the IRA had to actually stand down a division down there. This shows that generally criminality is a big part of the IRA’s post-ceasefire repertoire even though it might not necessarily have been sanctioned.

    I think the media are reporting what people generally believe, not the other way round. I don’t think people in general have zero opinion on a subject until they read it in the papers.

  • George

    Davros,
    may be of interest to you. As a child on holidays in Ring, County Waterford, there used to be wild donkeys running around the place.

    The locals never touched them and let them eat grass to their hearts content as they were considered to hold the spirits of the famine dead.

    Apparently, they turned up out of nowhere at that time and the locals had looked after them ever since. Don’t know if the Celtic Tiger turned them to dog meat.

  • alex s

    The problem for the Shinners is that after the Adare murder, the Columbia adventure, the Florida gun running, the Stormont and Dublin spy rings, Provo denials have no credibility. There was a time when a P O’Neill statement meant something, not now. In fact Martin McGuinness telling us that he had went to ‘someone’ in the IRA was farcical.

  • Henry94

    alex s

    I’d believe P O’Neill before Hugh Orde any day of the week.

  • alex s

    Henry 94, whatever.

  • cg

    That’s your problem alex

    You dismiss Henry’s comments but you don’t seem to understand that for nationalists and republicans Hugh Orde’s word means just as much to us as P O’Neill’s means to you.

  • Davros

    Thanks for that George, I’m filing that one away.

    cg – the P O’Neill thing is puzzling – what’s the word among republicans as to why he didn’t put his name to the denial ?

  • cg

    I don’t know Davros I’m not in the IRA 😉

  • Henry94

    Davros

    what’s the word among republicans as to why he didn’t put his name to the denial ?

    He? How do you know P O’Neill is a man?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    I don’t know where i’d be if you weren’t here to keep me right. Did I say horse, surely I meant zebra.

  • Davros

    cg- it’s me, DavrosJesuit – that’s why I worded the question as I did 😉 Wasn’t a trick question!

    Henry – “He”, like “Mankind” can be inclusive of both male and female !

    Usage Problem. Used to refer to a person whose gender is unspecified or unknown: “He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence” (William Blake).”

    Although I could make a good case for arguing probabilities as the IRA has a long history of gender discriminaton!

  • Davros

    Zebra are vicious beasts! Beware.

  • cg

    “cg- it’s me, DavrosJesuit -“

    Davros please explain this as my brain is fried 🙂

  • Davros

    my brain is fried

    LOL – I know what you mean, I’m escaping from attempting to write another essay about Loyalism.
    I meant that I was careful as to how I worded the question so as not to imply either that you were in the IRA or that you might associate with the IRA.
    I have great respect for Jesuits.

  • cg

    While I support and respect the IRA I’m not qualified to speak on P O’Neill.

    With regards what Republicans are saying I don’t know as I have been in Belfast for the last while and haven’t been able to speak to any of the boys back home so unfortunately don’t know why P O’Neill didn’t sign

  • ShayPaul

    The title to this thread seems to me rather “evident”.

    After all that’s what they are paid to do.

    No ?

  • ShayPaul

    Or maybe it’s different in Northern Ireland ?

    “Police don’t need to produce evidence.”

    A new concept in modern policing ?

  • Davros

    Isn’t that a very simplistic view of policing Shay ?
    The police have several functions.

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    Hats’ off to Roger for mentioning the Dublin/Monaghan bombing. After all the only reason Orde and his media fellow travellers e seem to be pointing the finger at the provos is because of the level o sophistication of the heist.
    Isn’t it also reasonable to suggest that perhaps ex RUC/serving MI5 co-operated with loyalists on this occasion with the pay off being laying the blame at the feet of republicans while loyalists getting off scot free with £4.5m to fund their drugs trade and their body jewellery collections.
    They (the RUC/Mi5) have plenty of motives:
    Blame game
    Sink the peace process
    And while you’re at it show how the PSNI (the Police Service of Nitwits and Imbeciles) is not up to the standard of the ‘thin green line’ of old.
    To suggest that they don’t have the means to avail of the opportunity is insulting to these characters, who have a long record of collusion in heinous and bloody crime together.

  • Davros

    Have you seen the story in the Sunday Herald Oliver ?

  • ShayPaul

    Football and pasta Davros – told you so.

    How about a little spice from the adriatic to wet your whistle ?

  • ShayPaul

    Davros e-mail me

    I have something to post back.

    Follow my profile.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Oilbhéar Chromaill,
    PSNI (the Police Service of Nitwits and Imbeciles) – That’s what 50/50 legislation lets in.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Oilbhéar Chromaill,

    It’s hard to believe that the security forces were behind this, simply because they would have too much to lose if they were caught. Imagine the scandal if British government officials were involved in robbing banks – it would be a disaster.

  • ShayPaul

    Well Roger, can you imagine that the security forces colluded with loyalists to bomb Monaghan and Dublin ?

    “It’s hard to believe that the security forces were behind this, simply because they would have too much to lose if they were caught. Imagine the scandal if British government officials were involved in Monaghan and Dublin – it would be a disaster.”

  • alex s

    You dismiss Henry’s comments but you don’t seem to understand that for nationalists and republicans Hugh Orde’s word means just as much to us as P O’Neill’s means to you.

    Posted by: cg

    At least Hugh Orde can be questioned about his claims, who is P O’Neill and is it the same P O’Neill who denied the Birmingham Pub bombs, the Claudy bomb, the disappeared, the Adare murder, the connection with the Columbia three, I could go on and on….

    Then we have Gerry Adams denying being in the IRA despite being spirited out of long Kesh to represent the Provos in talks at the highest level in London.