Do not pass Go, do not collect £26.5 million…

Man jailed over refusal to give evidence at inquiry.
PIRA9 has stuck to his principles and been sent to jail for 3 months for contempt of the tribunal, in that he refuses to attend and give evidence to Saville.He shouted “I`m the only man to be punished for Bloody Sunday. It`s a disgrace.” Although his evidence is needed in respect of Mr Ward’s testimony, it does seem unfair that this man is being sent to jail when Martin McGuinness attended but refused to cooperate.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    cg, it’s pretty obvious what you think – your opinions are completely predictable, read them here.

    Insider, that wouldn’t be necessary. As with Lee Clegg, the NI Secretary of State would simply overrule the Life Sentence Review Board and order his release immediately. No need to bother with talks, agreements or any of that silly nonsense.

  • DCB

    cg – in terms of the middle east it has a better democratic history than either Turkey or Iran, the two other countries there that have something approaching democracy – more so obviusly in Turkeys case.

    Of course the occupied terrotories are another matter, but in actual Isreal itself non-jewish voters – about 10% IIRC, have the same democratic rights as the other jewish voters.

    Now Isreal is great example of why porportional representation is a great idea but often horrible in practise. Through PR the jewish fundementlalists – who only get around 1-5% of the votes are almost always in government and do what religious fundmentalist do the world over – make life hell for the rest of us.

    In fact in a way I’m glad that the provos robbed the bank as it puts of the day that we have First Minister Paisley.

  • cg

    Roger
    How does that link tell you what I think?

    DCB
    Intel spoke of a democracy. He didn’t say a democracy when comparing it to its neighbors. How can a country that has flouted more UN Security Council resolutions than Iraq be considered a democracy?

  • George

    “George, Israeli soldiers have quite rightly fired on demonstraters on many occasions. If you are not aware of this I apologise for your ignorance”

    Intelligence Insider,
    I am not aware of Israel ever firing on its own citizens, it has fired on Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza but not on Israeli citizens within the state of Israel.

    You are showing your ignorance of Israel here. Name me a democracy which has opened fire on demonstrators in its own country Intelligence Insider. I’m still waiting.

    Please also tell me where I showed support for FARC, PLO or ETA anywhere on this forum as you claimed.

    I have not so at least have the civility to apologise or at least admit you just made it up – in other words lied.

  • DCB

    CG – the UN – now that’s a laugh – how many members of the UN are demrcacies.

    Democracy as in demos the people and cracy as in something else latin that I don’t know but I’m sure means essentially rule by the people.

    Isreal meets those basic criteria. Of course the big question is what are the people, as in where do the boundaries of the state lie. Not an easy question.

  • DCB

    George

    there’s no doubt that the Isrealis can be very trigger happy.

    Though it makes f all differnce in terms of Bloody Sunday and bringing it into the discussion is a shameless excersice in trying to not exactly justify BS but sort of feel better about it. As in well these things happen.

    Now the republican movement on the other hand have of course never, ever resorted to such rhetorical justifications.

  • DCB

    Sorry Geoege read your post properly and agree I doubt if its ever opened fire on its own citizins in it’s own terriory

    But then again if there is a parellel, Derry in the 1970s was to Britain akin to the Occupied Territories (or indeed the Occupied 6 Counties)

  • George

    DCB,
    it doesn’t matter what distant “parallels” can be drawn, the simple fact is that Israel has never considered the West Bank or Gaza to be an integral part of its territory and the regions are not and never have been democracies in any sense of the word.

    I resent someone like Intelligence insider showing disgraceful prejudice by labelling me as a “lover” of FARC, PLO and ETA just because he seems to get off on it. Maybe he is intolerant of my views because they differ from his own. There’s a word for that, it’s called a bigot.

    If a democracy resorts to murdering demonstrators in its own jurisdiction and refuses to recognise the crime, it no longer merits the name democracy. No ifs, no buts.

    The attitudes shown by many here would be the equivalent of Americans continuing to proudly condone the Ohio National Guard opening fire on rioters in Kent State University in 1970, which killed four people.

    It took 20 years but Ohio Governor Richard Celeste apologised to the families of the four slain students and the nine surviving victims in 1990. The also received compensation.

    This is the least the family of the Bloody Sunday victims should get.

    I know of no other democracy in the world that has opened fire on its citizens and 30 years later still refuses to admit it was wrong.

  • Intelligence Insider

    cg, obviously you have no idea what democracy actually means. Flouting UN resolutions doesn’t mean a country is not democratic.

    George, as I’ve already stated, when you condemn all of their activities………

    By the way I can’t seem to find Palestine on any map, where is it? If someone lives in the state of Israel they are citizens of that state and not even a pro-Israeli like me would claim that Israeli soldiers have never opened fire on demonstraters.

  • cg

    Intelligence Insider
    You still haven’t responded to my comments against your scurrilous accusations on the other thread.
    Be a man/woman and respond to my comments on that thread and retract your statement and apologise.

  • George

    Intelligence Insider,
    “George, as I’ve already stated, when you condemn all of their activities”

    Are you saying I am a FARC, ETA, PLO lover because I have never proferred an opinion on them in my life?

    In other words you are the type of person who gladly has a biased belief or attitude about a person formed beforehand.

    This is the exact definition of prejudice. What makes me sad is that your are proud of your prejudice.

    Also, please read my post. I never used the word Palestine, I said West Bank and Gaza. I never mentioned state either, I called them regions.

    Israel has never in my knowledge opened fire on its own citizens. The population of Gaza and West Bank are not Israeli citizens. You say you are pro-Israel but you appear to not even know what constitutes Israel. But I forgot you form your attitudes before knowing facts.

    How can I take someone like you seriously?

  • cg

    You can’t George he/she is a Neanderthal who speaks before thinking and who doesn’t feel he/she needs proof before making allegations.

  • Intelligence Insider

    George, “it has fired on Palestinians” you stated, “I never used the word Palestine” you then say, where do these Palestinians come from? They may claim to come from Palestine but there is no such country!

    “Israel has never in my knowledge opened fire on its own citizens.” Do you mean to say that Israeli troops have never fired a weapon in Israel? Get with the programme you ignorant buffoon!

    By the way, yes, I am saying that you are “a FARC, ETA, PLO lover” and also an ira lover. If you condemn the actions of these evil terrorists I will gladly retract that.

  • George

    Intelligence insider,
    “Do you mean to say that Israeli troops have never fired a weapon in Israel? Get with the programme you ignorant buffoon!”

    I see you are now an abuser as well as prejudiced. Any other strings to your bow that we should know about?

    I repeat, name me one instance when Israeli citizens demonstrating against anything have been shot at and killed by their own armed forces or police. You repeatedly fail to answer the question but instead resort to slurs, innuendo and insults.

    “It has fired on Palestinians” you stated, “I never used the word Palestine” you then say, where do these Palestinians come from? They may claim to come from Palestine but there is no such country!”

    Bully for them that they claim to come from Palestine. What has that got to do with what I posted which was “The population of Gaza and West Bank are not Israeli citizens.” Please read my posts rather than answering what your prejudices would like me to write.

    I used the terms Palestinians, West Bank and Gaza which are the terms used by the Israeli government.

    They are not Israeli citizens. Ask any Israeli.

  • Intelligence Insider

    No “Palestinians” in the state of Israel?? Your ignorance astounds me George! I also note that you refuse to condemn the terrorists I mentioned above, not really surprising.

  • George

    Firstly,
    those “Palestinians” as you call them who are living in Israel and are citizens are Israeli Arabs not Palestinians. As I said you don’t know much about Israel. With “friends” like you calling them Palestinians, the good people of Israel don’t need enemies. Sheesh.

    I said Israel has never in my knowledge opened fire on its own citizens – Arab or otherwise. The Palestinian population of West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens and these areas are not in Israel.

    You still refuse to answer the question and instead resort to abuse. Please answer the
    question rather than slinging abuse about and please stop questioning Israel’s right to exist by calling its Arab citizens Palestinians.

    Last attempt:
    How many Israeli citizens, Arabs or anyone else for that matter, demonstrating in the state of Israel have been shot dead by the security forces there Insider Outsider.

  • Intelligence Insider

    “You still refuse to answer the question”, is that the question about you condemning terrorist activity George? The “good people of Israel” aren’t Arabs or palestinian, but Israeli.

  • George

    Intelligence Insider,

    I’ll let any Israelis reading this draw their own conclusions from you initially terming their Arab minority as Palestinians and your continued refusal to admit that the Israel security forces have never opened fire on their own citizens demonstrating in Israel.

    Why did you call the Arab minority, who are called Israeli Arabs (the term I used) by the people of Israel Palestinians? Friends don’t insult each other, not even prejudiced ones.

    The only people who call them Palestinians are people who refuse to accept Israel’s right to exist. Is this another prejudice of yours that has been uncovered? After all, you have freely admitted you are a prejudiced person. You actually seem proud of it.

    The evidence presented here is that you are masquerading as a friend of Israel but are the exact opposite as you see no difference between Arabs living within or without her borders and you also believe Israel has shot its own citizens when they were demonstrating in the country.

    Israel neither needs nor wants self-confessed prejudiced bigots like you “on her side”. As you refuse to answer the question, I see no point in continuing any further, I’ve some skiing to watch. Good day.

  • Intelligence Insider

    George, it was you that first mentioned palestinians, not me.

    “you have freely admitted you are a prejudiced person”, is that what you call someone who supports the right of Israel to exist and defend itself? If so, then it is you who is prejudiced, and indeed, nothing less than a sectarian bigot.

    I have no problem in condemning the actions of the ira, plo, eta, farc. They are all terrorist scum who should not enjoy the same rights as decent people. Why is it that you DO seem to have a problem in condemning them? Is it because you are also a criminal/terrorist?

    You are pushing your luck here with that last part A.U.

  • Intelligence Insider

    A.U., I am merely asking the question, not stating a fact. I hope no offence was taken as none was given.

  • Biffo

    George & Intelligence Insider.

    I’m a bit late to this thread. But, if this is any help, you should be aware that the Israelis have opened fire on their own citizens.

    In 1976 Israeli security forces killed six Arab citizens who were protesting about confiscation of Arab land.

    In 1982 Arab citizens held demonstrations after the massacre of Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon. Eight were shot dead by Israeli police.

    Whether inquiries or prosecutions followed, I have no idea.

    You should maybe also be aware that what our media call “Israeli Arabs” does include Arabs who consider themselves Palestinians, Christian as well as Muslim.

    “Israeli Arab” also includes Bedouin Arabs. I don’t know if anyone saw the “Death in Gaza” documentary on Channel 4 last year where British cameraman James Miller was shot dead. The Israeli soldiers who were demolishing the homes in Rafah, taunting the Palestinains and who killed Miller were Bedouin Arabs. It was an eye-opener for me anyway.