'No doubt' about responsibility for bank heist

Courtesy of Newshound – Writing in The Village, Suzanne Breen, one of the more direct voices in our little pond of journalists, sets out what her sources, some named and some, understandably, unnamed, are telling her about the Northern Bank heist.. nice comment on ‘Imelda’, BTW.

As Suzanne Breen points out, despite the fact that –

There is no doubt among IRA members on the ground that the paramilitary group was responsible for the heist. “Everybody here knows the IRA did it and this is not a set-up by the securocrats.”

Security sources admit they are not confident that the gang behind the Northern Bank robbery will be caught and convicted

Perhaps the most pertinent quote, regarding that ‘lack of confidence’ is attributed to a police source – “There is absolutely no chance of any of this team breaking under interrogation anyway. It will all come down to forensic evidence.” “It was not a case of raiding the homes of the usual suspects,” says a senior police source. “Warrants aren’t granted without reason. The political sensitivities are so huge these days.”

The lack of confidence, IMHO, is not simply reflective of the “forensic evidence” reference. It is more likely that the lack of confidence is due to the corrosive understanding that policing – the tackling of criminal activity in this society – still remains subject to “political sensitivities“.

*Cue yet more ‘outraged’ denials and claims of ‘securocrat’ conspiracies*

  • willowfield

    Cue Henry94 and Pat McLarnon desperately posting to defend the honour of the Provisional IRA.

    Either that, or a noticeable absence from the thread.

  • peteb

    Willow

    Not even any other comments on the thread and you couldn’t resist posting a man-not-the-ball one.

    Give the damn thing some room to develop before sabotaging it.

    Thanks.

  • willowfield

    Just predictions. Don’t see how they sabotage the thread.

  • maca

    “No doubt” about the responsibility?
    “Police still haven’t a clue about record €32m bank robbery” – reads the Indo headline today.

  • Liam

    Who could honestly take this article seriously when former special branch chief and right-hand man of Ian Paisley, Bill Lowry, is quoted so liberally as an ‘independent source’?

  • peteb

    Willow

    You’re carrying over old arguments onto new threads and trolling for a response. That doesn’t allow any discussion on the new threads to develop.

  • willowfield

    Liam was first in.

    Congratulations. (edited – peteb)

    Sorry, Pete.

  • peteb

    Liam

    Bill Lowry’s past is clearly stated and he is not, as far as I can see, referred to as an ‘independent source’.

  • willowfield

    Liam

    The article also quotes republican sources.

  • George

    There was no doubt among IRA members that there would never be decommissioning so Suzanne is hardly quoting cast-iron sources.

    At least here article wasn’t spiked like Kevin Myers’ one in the Irish Times which also said the IRA were responsible.

  • Dec

    Pete

    I don’t think “former head of special branch” is fully stating Bill Lowry’s past (and present).

    WF

    Unsurprisingly, the ‘Republican’ sources are anonymous.

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    And as we all know Dec anonymous = unaccountable.

    I particularly liked the “An Ardoyne activist” angle. A welcome if brief departure from Suzanne’s usual ubiquitous * Republican / Security sources

    * Delete as appropriate

  • The Devil

    Liam or is that Lame,

    Are you claiming to know more about the internal workings of the PIRA than Bill Lowery, a man that has spent decades crawling up their intestines.

    If so then you must be GHQ staff and if this is the case can we have the £22,000,000 back please as we’re all a bit skint at the moment thanks very much.

  • Christopher Stalford

    From the article

    “There is absolutely no chance of any of this team breaking under interrogation anyway. It will all come down to forensic evidence.” “It was not a case of raiding the homes of the usual suspects,” says a senior police source. “Warrants aren’t granted without reason. The political sensitivities are so huge these days.”

    Somebody clearly didn’t tell Dr. Brian Hate.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    So yet again another contender for the old rope of the year award. A source here; a reliable source there; a republican source behind and a usually reliable security source in front of you. Not a lot of facts but it does give the author a lot of leeway and imagination.

    Fact one; there was a well executed robbery.

    Fact two; two and a half weeks on the van used in the robbery has not been recovered.

    Fact three; despite adopting the trawl tactics of the 1970’s the PSNI have come up with diddley squat.

    Fact four; to add humiliation to embarrassment the PSNI and Northern Banl issued the wrong serial numbers of the notes and made staff at Dundonald Ice Bowl look like a couple of pillocks.

    There are the facts to date, despite unionist desperation and a lynch mob media not a single iota of evidence has been produced to connect this robbery to any individual.

    As Claude Raines put it, ’round up the usual suspects’. But at least the cop in Casablanca was honest about his corruption.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    George,

    Myers was asked if he had any firm information on the robbery and if so he was given the option of writing a news piece. The fact that he declined showed that he was more interested in grandstanding than putting any worthwhile ‘facts’ before the public. A reading of his Telegraph article showed he was interested in a rant rather than news.
    I like the way he resigned from the IT on a point of journalistic principle (not).

  • willowfield

    Unlucky Pat, Liam got in before you.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Pat [ed.] McLarnon

    Fact five: every time someone points the finger at the Provos you jump up and down, blame the Unionists, blame the security forces, blame rogue elements within the British establishment, blame rejectionists and denounce everyone who dares speak out on these issues as an enemy of the peace process.

    It’s been eleven years since the first so-called ceasefire Pat, the people of Northern Ireland have had enough of this crap from the IRA. The guns have to go. No more kneecappings, no more exiles, no more bank heists (they are also involved in the gang that robbed the bank in Strabane).

    They should stop making excuses and blaming everyone else and start making it happen.

  • willowfield

    George

    Unsurprisingly, the ‘Republican’ sources are anonymous.

    Unsurprisingly and obviously. They’re hardly going to go on record!

  • BeanShide

    I can’t help but wonder what it is that “everybody knows”, that so convinces them the P.I.R.A. were responsible for the bank robbery. Is it to be trial by media based on untested gossip. Talk is cheap.
    As for it coming down to “forensic evidence” will this be tampered with or manufactured by the P.S.N. I. or their agents as has been the case in the past?
    Who in their right mind would take the word of a journalist or Hugh Orde for what day of the week it is. Beind kind, both sources are unreliable, the gospel truth would set fire to their tongues.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Christopher said: No more kneecappings, no more exiles, no more bank heists

    Well said, but I really do not understand why your party didn’t insist on the same in the recent talks.

  • George

    Pat,
    after what happened to John Waters for speaking out when his piece was spiked, it’s not surprising that Myers weighed up the potential pecuniary loss and plumped for putting principle aside.

    At least we now know he wasn’t involved.

  • Mario

    Cristopher-

    Pat [ed.] McLarnon

    “Fact five: every time someone points the finger at the Provos you jump up and down, blame the Unionists, blame the security forces, blame rogue elements within the British establishment, blame rejectionists and denounce everyone who dares speak out on these issues as an enemy of the peace process.”

    As an outside observer, I have to say that I did not read any of that in Pat’s post, he was merely pointing out that the evidence presented in the article was very weak with a lot of unidentified sources. I think he made valid points and nowhere did he say that he blames this group and not this one.

    The IRA could very well have been the ones who perpetrated this criminal act, but as Pat points out, they have not recovered any evidence, why attack him when he is merely asking the same questions you would be asking if say, the PSNI, blamed Ulster Resistence for this criminal act.

  • The Devil

    christopher stalford,

    I nicknamed him “the rat” but i don’t mind you using it as often as you like as far as McLarnen goes because it suites him.

    Beanshide,

    The reasons everyone except you knows it was the provos are as follows

    1) Pat McLarnen said it wasn’t therefore we know it was

    2) where would the loyalist find 20-30 people sober drug-free tout-free and professional enough to carry out the operation

    3) what organisation anywhere in Europe has the buisness empire to launder £22,000,000 made up of 70% indigenous currency

    4) The provos have loads of spys within dissident organisations to inform them of lottery stlye windfalls, you don’t seriously think that the shinners wouldn’t drop them in it to save their own faces do you.

    5) Because if it was a freelance job by either army or ex-ruc they would be forced to sell the haul for 20 pence in the pound which means reams of northern notes turning up in England

    6) there is just not a big enough crim outfit in the north to take the score down

    7) the house takeovers were in Shinner stronghold areas

  • Mario

    Devil-anything that might constitute proof?

    Why are people allowed to trash Pat on this thread simply because he defends a certain point of view? Surely, there should be a rule against you for calling him a rat just because he does not agree with your point of view. Most of what the Devil offers as proof is nothing more than speculation. There are thousands of bank robber crews operating in the world today, and all bank robbers have fences to launder the money, it is not something that can only be done by the IRA. It sounds like people want them to be more sinister than the rag tag army of drug dealers that they obviously are.

    What has the INTERPOL said about all this?

  • David Antsinpants

    That’s a Casablanca reference from Pat McLarnon at 5am, just like the identical reference that turned up in Brian Feeney’s column in the Irish News a few hours later. Honestly, it’s like these Shinner apologists are literally singing off the same hymn sheet.

  • cg

    “Shinner apologists are literally singing off the same hymn sheet.”

    Is there any proof of IRA involvement or is this just conjecture as usual.

  • David Antsinpants

    Erm, where did I say anything about IRA involvement? I just said the Shinner apologists were singing off the same hymn sheet.

    Know something we don’t about this bank robbery, CG?

  • Mario

    So anyone who holds a Nationalist or a Republican view is a Shinner apologist? They are merely to be mocked and not debated.

    Again, I am an outside observer, but surely that is no way to begin to erase useless divisions.

  • The Devil

    Super Mario,

    Divisions may be ineffective or prohibitive but they are never useless, otherwise their seeds would never be sewn.

    see your leader for details

  • BeanShide

    Reply to: The Devil
    Ah come on now dark one, get real, your post was very entertaining, I’m sure Pat enjoyed it, but your analaysis is a little naieve. Are you suggesting that Loyalist paramilitaries trained by the SAS couldn’t covertly take over homes in a Sinn Fein stronghold to carry out a bank robbery? That’s insulting in the extreme, you’ve cot a very low opinion of the lads capabilities. Then you ignore the “Security Services” who have the capability of stooping so low they could kiss their own butts, and have a history of dirty tricks that would put the ex angel of light into second place. Seriously, accusations unproven are nothing more than gossip, for example, Pat could call you an asshole, but without proof it would be nothing more thsn speculation. You see what I mean? I learned a long time ago to take NO ONES word for anything, and if I were to call you an asshole I would have to have proof positive that such was the case, and the same would apply right across the board, regardless of who the organisation or individuls were. What we have here is an evolution of Labours Spin Doctering, for example if a P.S.N.I car got hit by a brick, their spin doctor would transform that to hit by a coffee jar bomb. We live in a society that can’t tell the truth, journalists, what they don’t know will start writing their own happy ending, in this case in keeping with official pointing finger. I still don’t know “what everybody knows”. I was speaking to the dogs, cats the very rats in the streets and they dont know either. Maybe Mr. Everybody, since he knows so much, would like to give us a list of names of the wascals involved, sorta put up or shutup!

  • maca

    “So anyone who holds a Nationalist or a Republican view is a Shinner apologist? They are merely to be mocked and not debated.”

    Unfortunatly Mario, there are quite a few here who do think like that.
    Though certainly not all, it must be pointed out.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Christopher,

    please calm down and stick to the facts. I merely point out the lack of evidence to blame anyone for this robbery. Unionists to a man have led the charge with the DUP in the vanguard re republican involvwement. Despite the best efforts of your police force we have diddley squat. Please put any evidence before the contributors (or even give it to the PSNI). You cannot, so by all means while away your time in never never land.

    George,

    the fact remains that he was asked to contribute a news item, outlining any facts he had on the case. Tellingly he refused.

    Mario,

    Don’t even bother rising to the bait. Unionists on this site tend to adopt the position of ‘any one against me is a Provo.’ A less honest approach than ‘ any Fenian will do.’

    Davidantsinpants

    Sorry to rain on your parade thicko, but do learn to read the clock before coming on and embarrassing yourself. My post referring to Casablanca was posted at 5.44PM. A clue is that all posts are submitted in chronological order. Don’t bother apologising, re the Shinners singing off the same hymn sheet.

  • David Antsinpants

    Nah Mario, anyone who apologises for the Shinners is a Shinner apologist and that’s as far as it goes. Unfortunately that’s as far as the people I’m talking about go too. How else can you explain the rush to excuse a political party implicated in robbing a bank when that party hasn’t issued a single official statement on the matter now for THREE WEEKS? All we’ve had instead are proxies pointing fingers in all directions that shouting “boo!” Brian Feeney in particular has made a complete eejit out of himself over this and I say that as someone who normally has a bit of respect for the grumpy oul b*stard.

  • Davros

    A sad result of Government policies since the days of the Anglo-Irish Agreement- the two cultures thing- which have strengthened the tendency for us in NI to retreat into “hun and tim” mentality.

  • David Antsinpants

    here Pat, got an explanation for why P.O’Neill didn’t sign the denial yet? Or are you too thick to come up with one?

  • Davros

    Is it worth mentioning that there is only one mainstream party in NI moving heaven and earth to get armed robbers out of jail in the past couple of months ? 😉

  • David Antsinpants

    Re just forced myself to read Pat’s post properly and it’s even more of a load of bollocks than usual. “Unionists to a man have led the charge with the DUP in the vanguard re republican involvwement”???? The DUP have said hardly more about this than the Shinners, in fact peter robinson is making weird soothing sounds and pretending the whole thing never happened. Why the lies Pat? What’s your real agenda here?

  • peteb

    DA and everyone else.. the contributions, and I use the word advisedly, are running into personal abuse and claims of bigotry that are not substantiated by previous posts.

    Do everyone a favour.. keep the accusations against other posters to an absolute minimum.

  • David Antsinpants

    PeterB

    I haven’t accused anyone of bigotry here or called anyone worse than they called me (“thicko”, I believe). If you don’t want anyone hanging around here who’s not going to give up challenging Pat McLarnon out of sheer boredom then kindly say so, rather than hiding behind some pretence of fairness.

  • Davros

    and everyone else

    Neither of my posts have been “running into personal abuse and claims of bigotry” ! Harumphhh!

  • peteb

    There’s no pretence involved DA, I called both the personal abuse and the accusations of bigotry. Sorry if you felt singled out.. that wasn’t my intention.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davidantsinpants,

    all you have to do is admit that your post 7.03 (PM) was factually incorrect and we can all live happily ever after.

    Note to unionists, when challenged on a point simply substantiate original post, it makes it all so easier.

  • peteb

    Pat

    Not everyone who agrees with the points made in, for example, Suzanne Breen’s article is a unionist. Attempting to portray it as an us-and-them thing is inaccurate.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Peteb,

    the tone of the thread was set almost immediately into a us and them, so please don’t try and lay that one on me. It is unionists who have targetted me especially in the last two weeks or so, not that I mind as I find their attention quite amusing.

    What exactly are the points made in Breens’ item? What exactly do you agree with and what is your reason for doing?
    As pointed out in my first post all we have is unidentified ‘source’ after ‘source’. All very convenient when an author has deadlines to meet.

    The fact of the matter is this robbery may have implications for the political process. The DUP are trying to manoeuvre Orde into delaring who is responsible when it is quite obvious from events on the ground that the PSNI are in no position to do so.
    I have tried to stick to the facts on the subject and have challenged others to do the same. I would call on you to provide any facts you may have yourself.

  • Fraggle

    I much preferred Breen’s article further on in the same issue on how the IRA makes 30million a year from various enterprises. I’m sure there is some truth in what she writes but not a jot of evidence is offered.

  • peteb

    Not all the ‘sources’ are unidentified, Pat, and there are, as I’m sure you’re aware, perfectly valid reasons why those who are not identified would chose to be in that category.

    The political implications are what I initially identified as being of primary concern here.. for a variety of reasons – not simply the one you have focused on.

    But you clearly do not accept that this particular journalist has given an accurate account of what her sources are telling her, and that is, after all, how I presented this report to begin with.

  • BeanShide

    Who really gives a toss about the blame game?
    What about Ronnie Biggs, a tired old man in a very poor state of health, languishing in an English jail. And truth be told, men who have committed far more grievious acts than he, walking free and enjoying life to the full here in NI.
    I would like to know who was responsible for stealing Mercy away behind our backs. what the hell kind of society have we become that stands by and allows an ailing old man to be subjected to the rigours of a prision regime. Yes, he’s an Englishman, and I’m an Irishman, but my heart is filled with pity for his plight and his suffering. What has happened to the “Royal Perogative of Mercy”, has the Queen of England gone blind or has her heart turned to stone? Has Tony Blair become so dazzled by self image that he cannot see the torment being inflicted by the system on an old man who is not able to physically endure it?
    I suggest that instead of talking in circles on the subject of who dunnit, we should be sending e-mails to people and organisations of influence to try and help our fellow human being in his hour of need!

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    1) Pat McLarnen said it wasn’t therefore we know it was

    So horned one going by your own logic if The Devil says it was then we know that it wasn’t

    2) where would the loyalist find 20-30 people sober drug-free tout-free and professional enough to carry out the operation

    Dublin / Monaghan bombings spring to mind. In his latest book on the UDA Henry McDonald asserts that it took around 20 UVF men to carry out the operation right from hi-jacking the cars in Belfast and Portidown to making and planting the actual devices – that is of course is you accept the premise that it was the UVF which carried out the bombing

    3) what organisation anywhere in Europe has the business empire to launder £22,000,000 made up of 70% indigenous currency

    The Italian and Russian Mafias to name but two. Wanna hear a theory? Any criminal gang with international contacts to either of these organisations could have stolen the money and used either to launder it at a percentage.

    4) The provos have loads of spys within dissident organisations to inform them of lottery stlye windfalls, you don’t seriously think that the shinners wouldn’t drop them in it to save their own faces do you.

    Holy shit Devil, and they say that Republicans are conspiracy theorists. To be privy to that kind of info you must either be

    A] An upper level DR who knows that his organisation is full of Provie spies but can’t do anything about it therefore having another motive to try and blame the IR so-called A

    B] An upper level Chuck that runs all these ‘RA moles in the DR’s which if this was the case you wouldn’t be blaming The Chucks anyway so that rules that one out.

    C] An upper level Brit Intell / Special Branch operative which in either case means that you’re an accomplished liar anyway

    5) Because if it was a freelance job by either army or ex-ruc they would be forced to sell the haul for 20 pence in the pound which means reams of northern notes turning up in England

    They’d be forced to sell the haul for 20p in the £? Of course British Army ex – military types have never had any kind of connection or association with international arms dealers/ mercenaries have they? [See point 3]

    6)there is just not a big enough crim outfit in the north to take the score down

    Who says that they’re from the North? [Where did you get that info from?]. Who’s to say that they’re not from ROI, Britain, mainland Europe or an amalgamation of all three?

    7)the house takeovers were in Shinner stronghold areas

    And what does this prove? The UFF took over a house in Horn Drive in the Lenadoon estate of West Belfast in 1993. They were waiting to kill a SF activist that lived in the street and held the family hostage in the house overnight pretending to be the IRA. When the SF activist didn’t return to his house the UFF left the next morning and as they were leaving one of the gunmen said “up the UFF” and shot the family’s 19 year old son in the chest and back confining him to a wheelchair for the rest of his life.

    Hey! But what do I know? I’m only forwarding a speculative theory. Oh, I forgot. So are you.

  • Fraggle

    eh?

  • Fraggle

    that ‘eh?’ was directed towards the ronnie biggs stuff btw

  • Mario

    The Devil

    see your leader for details

    Néstor Kirchner? I will have you know that I did not vote for Argentina’s Peronista candidate, but I think he is doing a great job.

    Maca

    Thanks for pointing that out, I certainly have seen some very respectful and informed Unionists post here and their posts are completely absense of attacks. I do think that when it comes to Pat a lot of people resort to insults. ie calling him rat.

    I am not saying that I agree with him, but I think he should be debated respectfully.

  • maca

    Mario
    “I do think that when it comes to Pat a lot of people resort to insults. ie calling him rat.
    I am not saying that I agree with him, but I think he should be debated respectfully.”

    Totally agree.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Peteb,

    ‘Not all the ‘sources’ are unidentified, Pat, and there are, as I’m sure you’re aware, perfectly valid reasons why those who are not identified would chose to be in that category.’

    In the content of this one article we have,

    (a)an Ardoyne activist
    (b)British and Irish government, and PSNI sources
    (c)Security sources
    (d)According to security information
    (e)a security source
    (f)a senior police source
    (g)Republican sources
    (h)one republican
    (i) Other sources Both republican and security sources

    And of course we have Bill Lowry and Paisleys’ son. All of these ‘sources’ central to the integrity of the article.

    I too believe there is a reason for the anonymity, after all one persons ‘source’ is another person barfly. Or indeed, if these ‘sources’ exist at all are they republicans against the current process.

    I’m all for Breen and the like flying kites, but it is preferable to make conclusions on the basis of facts. Sadly as far as the robbery goes this article does not contain any.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Pat,

    You seem to keep mentioning “sources” and “proof” as if the website is a court of law. It’s not – it’s just anonymous people giving their opinion. So, in the same way I’ve no proof or can attribute any source to my opinion that Al Capone committed graver offences than tax evasion I believe the Ra carried out the robbery at the Northern.

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Fair point CG but why don’t you tell us what makes you formulate that opinion?.

  • The Devil

    Weapons of crass instruction,

    A few facts you may wish to bear in mind for the future.

    1) The Monaghan/Dublin bombings was not a 20 man opperation, if you belive that nonsense it is no wonder that you belive your beloved Provo’s were not behind the robbery.

    *** strange that you take un-named sources from one journalist to put forward your own arguement, but use the opposite critera when dealing with another *** hmmmmmm

    Are you now suggesting there was no collusion between British Itell’ and loyalist groupings in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, *** Wow does “the beard” know your saying this ***. because your puting this particular event forward as proof that Loyalists could have been behind the Bank-job.
    Yes they could have been, but they would not have been “tout-free” which meant they would have been caught, killing 20-30 civilians for political opportunity is acceptable for the Establishment, but don’t dare take 20-30 million of their friends money.

    ** tell me did you even read my post before jumping in for Ireland to repond **

    2) very few people (from the Island of Ireland that is) were involved in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, this story was deliberately manufactured to deflect attention away from the main source of the opperation.

    3) of the very few loyalists that has some knoweledge of thoses dreadful events, Robin took his secrets to the grave with him in return for financial support for his family when he succumbed to cancer.
    Another never quite made it to Davy Jones locker when the device Brit’ Intel’ left for him exploded prematurely.
    A third will never jepordise the good thing he has found for himself ever Never Never Never.

    4) As I said the bulk of the currency was indigenous, neither the Georgians or the gnomes of Zurich could dispose of £15,000,000 of Northern bank notes.

    5) As for the Dublin crews coming up, well there are only two with the resources to pull it off, one at the moment is seriously depleted of manpower, and the other wouldn’t dare as they are already on their last warning from the Provos.

    6) As for an English firm… well the houses that were taken over and the personel in the vault all had Belfast accents.

    7) As for the Lenadoon incident, it was not a shinner in the same street that the UFF were after but a Provo in the Street behind the Young mans house, they did not shout up the UFF as they shot the lad, the words they used were “mission accomplished”.

    So if your going to post get it right or don’t post at all,

    Weapon of crass instruction the name suites you because you are Crass in the extreme, I already know where you get your instruction from but as far as weapons go you only fire blanks.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Devil,

    What do reckon happened with the Dublin/Monaghon bombings then?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi WOCI,

    The main reasons I would suspect the Ra are where the houses were taken over and where the young lad Ward drank every so often…

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Congal,

    The emphasis is on sources simply because they are lifted directly from the aricle by Breen and as for proof it is others who are claiming these sources somehow constitute proof re republican involvement.

    I choose to question that analysis.

  • Mario

    I dont think Devil knows much about international bank robbers and traffickers, they might play up differences in the press, but when it comes to making a loot they will work together, thus the name “organized crime”. Notes have been known to been laundered as far away as Nigeria or they could be sold for a smaller fee accross the border and sold over time. These bank robbers would not have pulled this job unless they knew in advance that they could sell the notes, it was to use your PSNI, a professional job. They have not produced proof, other than speculation. It very well could have been the Provisional IRA, but they should be pointed out as suspects rather than the only suspects at this point.

    RE Al Capone( someone mentioned him)- There was more proof and most of it available, that he was involved in a lot more than money laundering, they went after him for that for the simple reason that a lot of the police were involved in the crimes that he could have been prosecuted for.

  • Mario

    That should be tax evasion and not money laundering.

  • George

    Pat,
    “the fact remains that he was asked to contribute a news item, outlining any facts he had on the case. Tellingly he refused.”

    And ironically the Irish Times ran with an unsubstantiated denial from a “Republican source” on its front page instead.

    If I was asked to give odds on who the perpetrators were it would be:

    Provisionals 2/7
    Other Republican 5/1
    Any loyalist grouping 5/1
    Disaffected ex-Ruc and military 10/1
    Southern gang 20/1
    Mainland European gang 100/1
    200/1 bar those

    Beanshide,
    I was thinking of Ronnie Biggs too. But he angered the establishment with his Brazil antics so they’ll probably let him rot.

    Most people I’ve asked look upon the Northern Job just like the Brinks or Great Train Robbery. They have a grudging respect just for the sheer cajones of it all.

    Beats the hell out hearing about yet another round of talks. If this means we don’t have to have another Leeds Castle moment for another year, a lot of people I know will be delighted.

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Devil this may take a bit of time but bare with me while I examine the “facts” you present.

    1] The Dublin / Monaghan bombings :

    [a] “ The Monaghan/Dublin bombings was not a 20 man operation”

    How do you know Devil, were you involved in them?. FACT is that I have my suspicions re the bombings but I don’t present my opinions as conclusive evidence unlike you appear to do with the bank robbery

    [b] “ strange that you take un-named sources from one journalist to put forward your own argument, but use the opposite criteria when dealing with another” :

    Not true, what I did was forward a theory presented by an author as a PLAUSIBLE counter – argument to your 20-30 men scenario. I didn’t present this as a definitive argument against your point. The sub-text “ that is of course is you accept the premise that it was the UVF which carried out the bombing” in my initial post should have given you a clue to this however I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you overlooked this point in your obvious indignation.

    [c] “Are you now suggesting there was no collusion between British Itell’ and loyalist groupings in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings”

    I’m suggesting no such thing but thanks for trying to put words into my mouth anyway. As I say, I have my own theories on Dublin / Monaghan but for the purposes of this point see sub-text in original post.

    [d] “ Wow does “the beard” know your saying this. because your putting this particular event forward as proof that Loyalists could have been behind the Bank-job”

    I don’t know if the beard knows or not and to be perfectly honest I don’t give two fiddlers as to what The Beard knows of doesn’t. If your trying to imply what I think then you’ve got the wrong hombre. I’m not presenting “proof ” on anything. I don’t know who was behind the bank job it COULD have been the IRA as it COULD have been any of the scenarios I pose in my original post.

    [e] “ tell me did you even read my post before jumping in for Ireland to repond” [sic]

    Jumping in for Ireland?, definitely wrong hombre there but for what it’s worth – yes I did read your post.

    [f] “very few people (from the Island of Ireland that is) were involved in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, this story was deliberately manufactured to deflect attention away from the main source of the operation”

    Wow Devil, your insight into the intell world is vast indeed as your authoritive comment belies but then again why am I surprised?, your knowledge about RJ Kerr and, tantalisingly, the “third will never jeopardise the good thing he has found for himself ever” only could come from someone that was on first name terms with “The Jackal”. I suppose it’s normal for us mere humans to associate The Devil with malevolent spooks and murky depths.

    2] The Money

    “ As I said the bulk of the currency was indigenous, neither the Georgians or the gnomes of Zurich could dispose of £15,000,000 of Northern bank notes”

    So who could, are you suggesting that the IRA are the only ones with international links?. As I said previously, any organised crime gang with a go – between to the Russian or Italian Mafia could have this money laundered through far away off – sore accounts, legitimate business interests etc and of course Brit ex – military types have never had these kind of connections via arms dealers etc in the past have they?.

    3] Dublin / English crims

    [a] “ As for the Dublin crews coming up, well there are only two with the resources to pull it off, one at the moment is seriously depleted of manpower, and the other wouldn’t dare as they are already on their last warning from the Provos”

    Not qualified to speak about that Devil as I don’t swim in the shadowy waters of crim intell. I would like to know where you get your info from though.

    [b] “As for an English firm… well the houses that were taken over and the personnel in the vault all had Belfast accents”

    As far as I understand each of the houses were taken over by three people with a further seven people operating in the bank. Where does that leave the remnant of your 20-30 gang members scenario and which accents did this remainder speak with?.

    4] The house take overs

    “ As for the Lenadoon incident, it was not a shinner in the same street that the UFF were after but a Provo in the Street behind the Young mans house, they did not shout up the UFF as they shot the lad, the words they used were “mission accomplished”.

    Well Devil a close relative of mine is a friend and neighbour of the family involved and got the news from the horses mouth but I won’t quibble with the details of the incident with you as I think your admission raises a number of far more interesting points.

    “It was not a shinner in the same street that the UFF were after but a Provo in the Street behind ”

    Bravo Devil. I’m sure that every Republican commentator on this blog is happy to know that someone from your obvious disposition makes the distinction between “SF / IRA”

    Dontcha think that your admission of knowledge of this event sort of negates your previous point that ‘it was the IRA wot done it so it was ‘cos all the taken over houses were in Republican strongholds and this proves that only the IRA could do this’. Is Lenadoon not a ‘ Republican stronghold’?.

    Oh, and BTW, do you not think that initially forwarding the point that only the IRA could takeover a house in a republican area and then presenting this argument as proof of guilt while having very obvious previous knowledge that the UFF took over a house in a Republican area on at least one occasion just a teensy weensy bit disingenuous?.

    Finally Devil, looks like I’ve joined the ‘Pat the Rat’ club in that you’ve resorted to personal insults. In terms of “I already know where you get your instruction from” it would see that Mario’s post assuming that you think that “anyone who holds a Nationalist or a Republican view is a Shinner apologist” would ring true.

    Finally Devil if you find me crass in the extreme there is a simple solution. Don’t read or respond to my posts.

    I’ll see ya down there.

    * oh, BTW CG. That’s a fair point about young Ward drinking in a Republican club but does it not give rise to the notion of guilt by association?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    George,

    absolutely correct on the IT, shows what they thought of the original Myers article.

    Apparently Orde is now to point the finger at the IRA. Just watched ‘security expert’ (lol) Alan Murray on UTV and what an embarrassing crock it was. He had just heard in the last hour that the PSNI heard about a year ago that something big was planned. They didn’t know exactly what, just something big. Right that’s it i’m applying for one of these jobs, all you need is the ability to spoof.

    Reg Empty has also stated that he has info that it was the same gang who broke into Castlereagh. At least one can see the similarities, since Castlereagh the PSNI has proved to be embarrassingly inept, with no one charged and nothing recovered. Unfortunately Empty won’t name his source.

    So now on three weeks, no van recovered, no money recovered, no arrests. A trawl of premises in Belfast and shoes and Xmas presents recovered. Way to go Hugh you and the boys make me proud to be from Norn Iron.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Reg Empty has also stated that he has info that it was the same gang who broke into Castlereagh.

    Is Reg suggesting MI5 robbed the Northern?

    ;o)

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Gonzo,

    how could you?

  • DCB

    WOCI

    Fraid the devil is certainly right on the Laundering front.

    If they’d stolen euoros (the launders currency of choice give the decline of the dollar and the EUR 500 notes) or dollars then no problems. But NI bank notes!!!!

    I’m not saying that there isn’t something that could be done with them – but you are really looking at 1-10% of face value.

    If however you have large cash rich businesses in NI then the situation is very different.

    Last time I looked there wasn’t many eastern europeans selling petrol along the border.

    Again I would like to know who else could have done it.

    Granted there is no real, hard evidence that the provos did it, but as Paddy Keilty said after the first ceasefire “there used to be just the IRA now there are so many of them, the Real IRA, the Continuty IRA, and the I can’t beleive it’s not the IRA”

  • Davros

    Latest from SF website which has emerged from hibernation:

    West Belfast Sinn Féin Assembly member Michael Ferguson has branded the ongoing PSNI operation against the republican and nationalist community in North and West Belfast as ‘political in motivation and violent in nature’.

    From what I have seen the violence has come from local yobs attacking police going about their lawful business of investigating crime…..