'Keep Them There'..?

THE Colombia Three have been sentenced to at least 17 years each in Bogota, following an appeal against their previous acquittal by prosecutors. The BBC reports: “Sinn Fein MLA Catriona Ruane of the Bring them Home campaign said Thursday’s verdict was “military justice” which would be fought.” Well, I suppose SF should know military justice when they see it…

  • peteb

    Yup, that’s the kind of ‘indignant statement’ I thought would be made.. But, does Catriona really mean ‘fought’?.. and not ‘appealed’?.. Hmmm.

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    Perhaps BG and PB could set aside their gloating for a moment and consider how the Colombian judicial system could have come up with such a perverse appeal verdict given the evidence that we all heard when the original trial was held. There may be a military connection – but there’s very little justice about it.
    Another question: How much of the appeal process was held in the open ? None it all it seems to me. Justice to be done must be seen to be done.

  • Dublinfrank

    I agree with Oilbhéar Chromaill. ‘Justice like decommissioning must be seen to be done’. Unfortunately the colombian authorities did not want to be humiliated. No doubt the Colombian 3 can reflect on the justice system for the next 17 years.

  • peteb

    OC ‘gloating’? Yeah.. whatever..
    As for a ‘perverse’ verdict.. that’s what the original was, IMHO.

    I’ll just add those other two links here Gonzo.. I think they’re relevant, as I said previously.

    Colombia arrests FARC envoy

    US pledges more aid to Colombia

  • JD

    ‘Justice like decommissioning must be seen to be done’.

    Is this what passes for clarity of thought now?

  • James

    The fix is in.

    It always was.

  • Jimmy Sands

    The trouble with this is that although I have little doubt that the provos were up to their necks in this and that the three were up to no good, the evidence on the specific counts seemed to be on the thin side. In the circumstances the acquittal didn’t surprise me. This looks suspiciously like payback.

  • Dublinfrank

    “‘Justice like decommissioning must be seen to be done’.

    Is this what passes for clarity of thought now?”

    No hardly that but perhaps sarcasm. Lets be honest isn’t the reality that they were up to no good in Colombia and even if the judicial system is a bit dodgy there they almost certainly got the right result. No doubt unionists will gloat a little and republicans will winge a lot but this time next week the only people that will give a damn are their families.

    Perhaps we could trade their release for a photo?
    Wouldnt that leave everyone happy?!!!

    It would appear that Gerry Adams’s remarks that republicans were not criminals does not seem to have made it across the Atlantic.

  • JD

    I have no particular sympathy for these guys. I don’t know the full story of why they were there (and I suspect many others don’t either), but surely the point here is one of principle: even the most heinous crimes are entitled to be dealt with in a just and fair manner. This does not appear to be the case in Colombia.

    What makes me uneasy is that they have been tried and convicted in the court of the media and public opinion as being guilty, and this somehow prevents them from being treated in a fair manner, regardless of what they have done.

    The principle of justice applies to both the victim and the perpetrator.

  • DCB

    I must confess to having a knee jerk reaction of glee.

    I too find it hard to believe that they were “eco-tourists”.

    But 17 years in a Columbian jail!!! It would be better if they could serve their sentences in Ireland. Their families will suffer and they haven’t been convicted of anything.

    I wonder will this have any impact on the sinners US funding

  • Dublinfrank

    The reality is that if they had been tried accoring to Brtish justice they would be free now and if they had been tried according to IRA justice they would be buried in a bog a long time ago.

    I have yet to hear a plausible explanation for their presence in Colombia and whilst that does not mean there was the evidence to convict them i have little sympathy for those who are actually guilty in a real if not a legal sense.

  • DCB

    JD

    It’s a hard argument to tease out. If they had obviously done something highly dodgy in a country that’s also highly dodgy, then should they automatically be freed.

    Perhaps the evidence of them doing anything in Columbia is thin. I guess it’s more a case of circumstantial evidence.

  • Davros

    There’s no reason to justify them serving their sentences in Ireland. Why should the taxpayers of the ROI be landed with the cost ? They weren’t travelling on legit Irish Passports and in my book that means they forfeit any rights they might have had as Irish Citizens.

    SF have been in a lot of trouble recently:

    The Bennett case.
    Sean Crowe’s election agent was tortured, tried and shot by the provos for “freelancing”.
    The Hanratty case.

  • alex s

    given that public opinion in Columbia may have had an effect in the final outcome a little less arrogance on the part of the 3 would have helped, whatever they were doing it wasn’t sightseeing or studying local birdlife as they claimed.

  • DCB

    Davros, I guess it’s because they will probably die in a Columbian jail, also their families are unlikely to be able to see them, and it’s not meant to punish them.

    Hadn’t thought about the taxpayers point of view – ah well it’s not by taxes, so I can be charitable

  • JD

    DCB,

    I agree that we’re all in the relative dark here. As I mentioned I have no particular sympathy for these fellas. But I also recognise I have insufficient information on them.

    I was just pointing out that justice cuts both ways. I’m put off by the “hang ’em high attitude” that seems to be getting more and more prevalent in Ireland nowadays. Generally speaking, there seems to be less tolerance for the idea of just treatment for alleged perpetrators. Sometimes I get the impression that justice seems to be understood solely in terms of vengeance.

  • Cahal

    Do you think the Irish gov will do anything to help them?

  • Davros

    DCB- they should have thought of their families before breaking the law. The “families” argument can be used against any and every custodial sentence.

  • DCB

    JD

    I agree, I also don’t think that anyone should be given a defecto death sentence. I think the Irish goverment should do something about it. But I wouldn’t hold my breath

  • Keith M

    I have to say that my faith in the Colombian justice system is resored after this. I could never see the logic. Given the weight of evidence and the nonsense of the justification for these guys being where they were, I could not understand the original verdict. As for them serving their sentences outside Colombia, there is absolutly no justification for this. “Keep them there” indeed.

  • Davros

    Let’s be honest- If Sinn Féin had the courage of their convictions ( and they have quite a few! ) they would stand up and say that they support FARC against an equally unpleasant government regime. But that would upset the US Government and seriously damage the $$$ flow. Crocodile tears for these 3 ?
    Let’s not forget that ordinary Colombian people died because of the support given by the IRA to FARC. But when have the head honchos of Sinn Féin ever given a stuff about ordinary people ?

  • DCB

    Davros – true, but I suppose the whole point is to minimise where possible the impact upon families, without unduely going light on the punishment part of the sentence.

    Lots of posters have rightly pointed out that if provo justice was applied the men would be in a bog, but the whole point is that we should not be using provo law as a yardstick.

    It’s a bit of an irrelevant argument as they will fight their case, the government will do little. SF was slow of the mark in campiagning for them, and probably wishs that they were in a bog, so they will stay in Columnia

  • peteb

    For those who don’t remember the details..

    BBC News Q&A – The Colombia Connection

    DCB, the impact of, what is now, the verdict (notwithstanding a possible appeal to the Supreme Court in Colombia) is the responsibility of those who committed the offense.

  • JD

    DCB

    Lots of posters have rightly pointed out that if provo justice was applied the men would be in a bog, but the whole point is that we should not be using provo law as a yardstick.

    My point exactly. There is a thinly veiled desire for provo justice “in reverse” (as it were) at work in this case. That to me is odd.

  • Davros

    The point about “Provo Justice” is that as these men were senior IRA and SF figures it was unlikely that they would end up in a bog. Look at Scap. Known to have been a tout for years. One of Gerry’s relatives has been named as a tout on Cryptome. Bogs were for civilians and low-rankers. Very Animal Farm.

  • Davros
  • JD

    Yes, Davros. It is clearly hypocrisy, and I certainly won’t defend it. Martin Ingram has also been pushing this on other boards for a while.

    Once again, I am not defending these guys, but I still don’t see what this litany of past IRA injustices has to do with seeing justice to be done in this case. The sentiment along the lines of: “Well, the IRA did x, y, z, so they deserve what they get” is an odd defence. Why is the IRA the yardstick?

  • Davros

    In part because they are being so “holier than the whole universe, let alone thou” over collusion ?

  • JD

    In part because they are being so “holier than the whole universe, let alone thou” over collusion ?

    Sorry, Davros, I don’t follow.

  • toronto

    You lot seem to have a twisted definition of justice. These men have been convicted on evidence (and I use that term loosely) that amounts to “wrong place, wrong time.”

  • Will

    But on the bright side, the three ole happy travellers in Colombia havent been forced to sit ant watch the Hearts & Minds Christmas ‘comedy’ special. Not even their large sweaty cellmate ambling across the cell with ‘that’ glint in is eye would be quite the fate of being forced to watch second rate columnists and third rate comedians plough their way through that utter bilge.

    The other good thing is that Catriona will be able to have one hell of a party when she does bring them home – after all, she’s got till 2021 to plan it. It really should be a good bash!

  • D’Oracle

    Ah ..they are not actually in the possession of the Columbian authorities at this time.

    Maybe their research endeavours have taken them outside the jurisdiction ?

  • aquifer

    Law in general is weak when dealing with armed conspiracies. Its as if the state is too vain to admit it has an effective competitor. It is clear that many more than those with guns are guilty of actively supporting the FARC coercive endeavour, but fellow travelling is not defined as an offense. The spies, fundraisers, and informants who made the PIRA campaign effective will often have escaped prosecution by avoiding armed acts.

    These 3 guys may not have been training bombers, but they probably provided at least moral support to bombers who had cut down civilians who were literally and completely innocent.

  • AW

    D’Orade

    “Maybe their research endeavours have taken them outside the jurisdiction ?”

    The birds have migrated.

  • slackjaw

    I’m not sure how reliable the Colombian newspaper El Pais is as a source, but here is its summary of the evidence against the three, along with a tranlsation (mine):

    ‘El Tribunal Superior encontró factible la existencia de nexos “económicos y estratégicos” entre el IRA y las Farc.’

    Translation:
    The Supreme Court found feasible the existence of economic and strategic nexuses between the IRA and FARC.

    NOTE: The literal translation of the Spanish word ‘factible’ is feasible, but in this context may also mean ‘can be proven by fact’.

    ‘El incremento del uso de artefactos explosivos en los ataques terroristas de las Farc fue considerado como una prueba de que el grupo recibió asesoría ilegal en la zona de despeje.’

    Translation:
    The increased use of explosive devices in FARC terrorist attacks was considered proof that the group received illegal advice in the FARC stronghold.

    ‘Los rastros de explosivos en la ropa de los capturados fueron reafirmados por expertos de los Estados Unidos.’

    Translation:
    Traces of explosives on the clothes of the detained were reaffirmed by United States experts (snigger snigger).

    ‘En la versión de los irlandeses hay vacíos. No explicaron, por ejemplo, cómo hicieron para moverse libremente en una zona totalmente controlada por las Farc’

    Translation:
    There are gaps in the story of the Irishmen. They did not explain, for example, how they were able to move freely in a zone totally controlled by the FARC.

  • Donnie
  • Donnie
  • Butterknife

    From the Times:
    Irish terror trio on the run What a surprise. I found it interesting that at the bottom at the article it said:
    “Police sources in Belfast said at the time of their arrests that the men had been exporting IRA technology as well as testing a new and deadly fuel-air type bomb under cover of the jungle’s vastness.
    McCauley, a Sinn Fein election worker in 1996, has an IRA conviction in Northern Ireland. Monaghan is a former member of the executive of Sinn Fein, the IRA’s political wing, and has been named under parliamentary privilege as the director of the terror group’s “engineering department”, which is responsible for developing the IRA’s bomb-making capacity.

  • Keith M

    “Police sources in Belfast said at the time of their arrests that the men had been exporting IRA technology as well as testing a new and deadly fuel-air type bomb under cover of the jungle’s vastness”. Why isthis vital information only comiung to light now? Was evidence withheld from the Colombian prosecutors?

    I think they shouold probably start the search for the three terrorists in Cuba!

  • aquifer

    Translation: Fuel Air Device: La Mon

  • Davros

    McCauley, a Sinn Fein election worker in 1996, has an IRA conviction in Northern Ireland. Monaghan is a former member of the executive of Sinn Fein, the IRA’s political wing, and has been named under parliamentary privilege as the director of the terror group’s “engineering department”, which is responsible for developing the IRA’s bomb-making capacity.

    Another “SF election Worker” in trouble ?
    Three in the past few years… what does that say about Sinn Féin ?

  • Henry94

    Police sources in Belfast

    Pigs will lie.

  • Butterknife

    So do IRA/Sinn Fein

  • Congal Claen

    “Police sources in Belfast – Pigs will lie.”

    Yeah Henry, much more likely they were eco-tourists…

    Does no-one else think that the security forces know rightly were the three amigos are and that this knowledge may be used to force the Ra’s hand over the photo fiasco? Given that the security services here knew of the 3 and other’s activities and tipped off the Colombians I think it’s on the cards. Ye wouldn’t exactly have had to be smart to expect them to make a run for it…

  • willowfield

    If these guys weren’t Provos, why is it that Provisional SF is so exercised about them?

  • stephen nicholl

    Apparently they haven’t been seen or heard from since their release in June with Catriona the last person to be in contact.

    A little slack of the Columbians to lose them and one wonders how they left the country legally.

    Wouldn’t be surprised if they are toasting their conviction with rum on a Cuban beach.

    Why is everyone so excised by the overturning of the verdict when they celebrate the overturning of the verdict on the Birmingham 6. Let justice be done even if one side doesn’t like the result.

  • CavanMan

    Everyone knows how good the provos are at evading capture.as Stephen said they are probably guests of Castro’s.I wouldnt be suprised if they never see the insides of a colombian or any other jail.

  • Occasional Commenter

    Did anyone see the BBC News 24 report on this last night at about 7 I think? The newscaster (female, wore glasses, can’t remember her name) preceded the clip of Catriona Ruane speaking with:

    “The IRA held a news conference today”.

    So the BBC confirm that Sinn Fein and the IRA are one organisation!

    After the clip she looked a bit nervous and said “Representatives on Sinn Fein speaking there.”

    Quite funny I thought.

  • Henry94

    OC

    After the clip she looked a bit nervous

    A normal reaction to making a mistake on air.

  • slackjaw

    The faith in the Colombian judiciary among many in Northern Ireland is remarkable, especially given the obvious ineptitude of Colombian policing. (See Colombia Three)

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    “One of Gerry’s relatives has been named as a tout on Cryptome”

    Sorry to burst your bubble Dav but the person referred to in the article posted by yourself is Gerry’s youngest brother Dominic who has been living in Belfast since his release from prison in the early nineties.

    You really shouldn’t believe everything that those nasty spooks say. Still, no doubt if you had presented the flawed sources on which you base your untrue accusations to a court in Colombia they would have been accepted as Gospel.

  • Mark

    Henry94

    “A normal reaction to making a mistake on air.”

    Wait! You’re telling me that Sinn Fein and the IRA aren’t one and the same thing? 😛

    Are you you sure she wasn’t just embarrassed for letting the truth slip out?

  • Mark

    Oops spelling mistake

    Replace that second “you” with a “not”.

  • pakman

    Stephen Nicholl

    “one wonders how they left the country…”

    using false papers I presume!

  • Davros

    WOCI : I notice that you don’t want to talk about F. Scappattici 🙂

    Can you tell us how scrupulous they are about evidence in IRA “courts” ?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    “Let’s not forget that ordinary Colombian people died because of the support given by the IRA to FARC. But when have the head honchos of Sinn Féin ever given a stuff about ordinary people ?”

    Exactly what this support, none came out in court, therefore what is the basis for such a dramatic statement.

    Don’t forget to mention that a retired RUC officer from Glenaane was named on Cryptome as a very active serial killers, believed to have killed dozens of Catholics. Bit selective there.
    “One of Gerry’s relatives has been named as a tout on Cryptome.”

    KeithM

    “Police sources in Belfast said at the time of their arrests that the men had been exporting IRA technology as well as testing a new and deadly fuel-air type bomb under cover of the jungle’s vastness”. Why isthis vital information only comiung to light now? Was evidence withheld from the Colombian prosecutors?

    It wasn’t evidence, it was an off the record briefing to selected journalists. The fuel air bomb shared the same headlines with the small atomic weapon and napalm devices. Christ. some people will swallow any old tosh.

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Yep, absolutely correct Dav, I didn’t mention Scap – probably because there was no mention of him in the baseless article you cited as the authority in your attempted character assassination.

    If you want to look at Scap, okay, let’s look at him.

    Alleged informer who was the spooks top tout for decades, he denies it, Martin Ingram insists he was, Scap sits his ground in Riverdale while the accusations are flying and them skites, apparently into thin air. And that’s it, that’s what I know about Scap.

    Now, if you want my opinion I would suggest that he probably was talking and maybe he was all that they say he was but the thing is I don’t know, however, maybe you’ve got an ear in the ‘RA and if you have any validation as to him “Known to have been a tout for years” I’d love to hear it.

    On the point of can I tell you “how scrupulous they are about evidence in IRA “courts”. Then the short answer is no I have no idea but I can assume, judging by what I’ve read over the years, that they weren’t very scrupulous at all but m aybe you could clarify that by commenting on IRA ‘courts’ as authoritively as you have commented on touts.

    I must say Dav, I find it vaguely perverse that you should attempt to challenge me on the weight given to evidence whilst using an unnamed, unsubstantiated, obscure internet source as a foundation to blacken someone’s character.

    Anyone for glass houses and stones?

  • Davros

    Ha Ha Ha WOCI 🙂

    Scap was known to be a tout years ago – but as not all animals are equal , he was spared the treatment given to young Teggart.

    Pat – what relevence does the named copper have to do with how the RM selectively dispenses it’s “justice” ?

  • JD

    I still don’t understand this obsession with IRA “justice.” I thought people wanted to get away from that?

    It should not be the yardstick for dealing with these cases. The fact that it does smacks of a desire for “reverse” IRA justice: lex talionis, and all that.

    Is the law to be a game of catch-up with IRA “justice”?

  • Davros

    I still don’t understand this obsession with IRA “justice.”

    Easily explained. An awful lot of people find SF’s hypocrisy on the justice issue offensive.

  • John East Belfast

    I suppose UK & ROI don’t have extradition treaties with Columbia ?

    ie if they ever try to come home ?

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    “Scap was known to be a tout years ago”

    As I said previously Dav my own assumption is that he probably was but I have no conclusive proof and if you have any validation as to him “Known to have been a tout for years” I’d love to hear it.

    I notice that you don’t want to talk about F. Scappattici 🙂

    Funny that because I noticed that you have completely ignored my assertion that you were using an ambiguous, unsupported INCORRECT internet source to brand someone an informer.

    What was that you were saying about hypocrisy?

  • Davros

    Is there some way under the International war on Terror that Caitriona Ruane can be issued a subpoena
    and made to divulge their whereabouts ? Was it Gerry or Martin M who refused to go in front of a US enquiry ?

    Caitriona Ruane, Sinn Fein Assembly member for South Down and spokeswoman for the ‘Bring Them Home’ campaign, is one of the few people who knows where the three men are hiding.

  • Davros

    Come to think of it, Camp X ray – after all the USA is supposed to be running an international war against terrorism.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Davros,

    You used Cryptome as a means of stating one of Gerry’s relatives was a tout. Just wondered what you thought of the fact that a RUC serial killer was named on the same site and if you think any action should be taken against him.

  • Davros

    Pat- of course those allegations should be investigated and if he is guilty he should spend the rest of his life behind bars, preferrably sharing a cell block with the monsters responsible for La Mon, Claudy and the Old Bailey Bombing.

    (Note to JD- Pat gives one a far better class of red herring – he’s the John West of the board! )

  • Davros

    Was any evidence ever produced that there was an attempt to posion these three, or that their lives were in danger ?

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Still going on about evidence Dav?. Why don’t you trawl through Cryptome and look to see if there’s any ‘evidence’ on there as it seemed to suit you in the recent past.

    Funny how you seem to gloss over the questionable quality of evidence when it suits your particular argument.

  • Davros

    More smoke from WOCI 🙂

    Was there ever any evidence of an attempt to poison the Colombia 3 ? Or was it another SF fairytale for gullible ?

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Davros,

    Be reasonable. If a poisoning did take place do you think there’d be evidence everywhere for people to see what went on ?

  • Davros

    Roger – there’s been a lot of breast-beating by Caitriona and fellow travellers about the danger these men are supposed to have been in … there’s not a shred of evidence to back any of it 🙂
    I suspect the “poisoning” was invented.

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Hardly what I’d call smoke Dav. First you brand Dominic Adams an informer and then you ask for Caitriona Ruane to be incarcerated in camp x-ray.

    In the context of you asking for evidence of the alleged threat to the three Irishmen’s lives in Colombia I’m asking you what evidence you have to make the above assertions, hardly an unreasonable request in light of your previous calls for verification.

    Still, if you want to use evasive tactics by continually dismissing legitimate questions as smoke then you’ve grounded any further development of the debate. Fortunately though this is a public forum and the other users can use their own judgement in judging just who is laying down the smoke.

  • ShayPaul

    I have yet to hear from Dr No about this incident, will he be asking for photos, sackcloth and ashes ?

    Or will we be treated to condemnation of the wee lads publicly while privately chastising their hot headed spree ?

    Just imagine the rumpus if it was the boys on the falls.

    As for columbian justice, I notice the habitual arch defenders of democracy and civil rights here, don’t give a monkeys for the 3 accused.

    Sectarianism does awful things to peoples sense of justice it would appear.

  • Davros

    Poor WOCI – whinge, whinge, whinge 🙂
    The evidence I have for the above assterions is that I have never seen any evidence produced by those claiming that the inglorious 3 were attacked with poison or any evidence to support that they are in any form of danger 🙂

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Davros, will you please wise up just a little bit. Colombia is hardly known for it’s strict adherence to non-corruption or justice, and it’s a country teetering on the edge of stability. Making demands for evidence in circumstances where evidence might not be readily available if the alleged events had in fact occurred makes you look very silly. The absence of evidence does not allow you to claim that an alleged event did not take place.

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    “Poor WOCI – whinge, whinge, whinge”

    Really Dav, I’m surprised and disappointed in equal measure that you have had to result to playground inanities in attempting to reduce my wholly valid enquiries to the status of whingeing. Surely attacking the presentation of a question, as opposed to its substance, is an indication of cracks appearing in a theory?.

    On the issue of the Irish trios lives being in danger in confinement in Colombia the following articles my prove sufficient in providing, in the very least circumstantial, evidence that they are.

    http://www.colombiajournal.org/colombia173.htm

    http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/colombia/prisons.htm

    http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_07/issue_02/news_02.html

    Now Dav, speaking of evidence. Do you still think that Dominic Adams is an informer?, even though I have explained that your flawed source used to make such a scurrilous accusation is factually incorrect and do you still think that Caitriona Ruane should be confined to camp x-ray on the word of a local journalist?

    “An awful lot of people find SF’s hypocrisy on the justice issue offensive”

    The words pot, kettle and the colour black spring to mind. Or maybe I’m just whingeing. ; – D

  • Davros

    Nothing there to suggest that The 3 terrorists are at any greater risk than the average criminal in a colombian Jail. Surely you are not suggesting that
    they deserve better treatment than the locals because of they are Irish ? Racist indeed WOCI.
    Nothing there to support claims that an attempt was made to poison the 3 terrorists.

    They chose to travel to Colombia and to break the law in Colombia. They should accept Colombian punishment.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    Davros, now you’re changing the subject and resorting to obfuscation by setting up strawmen about the locals.

  • Davros

    Not in the least Roger 🙂 The terrorist supporters claim that the terrorists are at especial risk and that an attempt has been made to poison them. No support for that in the 3 links 🙂

  • David Antsinpants

    While we’re on the subject of changing the subject, isn’t it just typical of the BBC not to have mentioned that FARC has used IRA technology to tunnel underneath West Bank settlements! Only someone as good at shovelling sh*t as Gerry Adams could possibly have made this 7,000 mile monstrosity possible!

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Resorting to baseless, untrue insults now Dav?

    In contrast your previous infantile foolishness was much more preferable in the sense that at least it had an air of playful innocence about it however your latest remarks have a much more sinister ring to them. Perhaps your mask is slipping just a little?.

    Regarding YOUR allegations that

    “they deserve better treatment than the locals because they are Irish”

    the answer is no they don’t but to say that Colombian prison conditions meet international human rights norms and standards is a gross understatement and surely it’s the duty of every government to monitor the welfare of its nationals incarcerated abroad? [witness the Brits in Thailand etc].

    Regarding your assertion that

    “They chose to travel to Colombia and to break the law in Colombia”

    Let’s wait and see how the transparency of the appeal pans out before we make accusations of what laws they’ve broken in Colombia, remember they were initially convicted on the basis of flawed forensic evidence and perjured oral testimony, [Niall Connolly was at an Irish Embassy dinner in Havana, Cuba, on January 19, 2000, the day on which a prosecution witness claimed to have seen the Irishman in Colombia].
    With the appeal being held in CAMRA it’ll be interesting to see how the prosecution rebutted that evidence when the the appeal comes to light.

    Now regarding evidence Davros perhaps you could supply the evidence you used to make the allegations about Dominic Adams and Caitriona Ruane. For some strange reason you seem to have assiduously avoided THAT subject.

    However, I’ll have to wait until tomorrow to hear your answer on THAT one .I’m off to the pub with me mates.

  • Davros

    LOLare you now daring to deny that they broke Colombian Law by entering on false papers ?
    Just gets better and better from you 🙂

  • Davros

    WOCI – are you waging war on the English language or are you incapable of understanding what is written ?

    Surely you are not suggesting that they deserve better treatment than the locals because of they are Irish ?” is a question, not an assertion 🙂
    Hence the ?

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Davros –

    “Are you now daring to deny that they broke Colombian law by entering on false papers” ? –

    Seventeen years for entering a country on false documentation?. Surely even someone like yourself would think this to be just a tad draconian, no?. My previous point still stands :

    “Let’s wait and see how the transparency of the appeal pans out before we make accusations of what laws they’ve broken in Colombia, remember they were initially convicted on the basis of flawed forensic evidence and perjured oral testimony, [Niall Connolly was at an Irish Embassy dinner in Havana, Cuba, on January 19, 2000, the day on which a prosecution witness claimed to have seen the Irishman in Colombia].
    With the appeal being held in CAMRA it’ll be interesting to see how the prosecution rebutted that evidence when the the appeal comes to light”.

    WOCI – are you waging war on the English language or are you incapable of understanding what is written ?

    “Surely you are not suggesting that they deserve better treatment than the locals because of they are Irish ?”
    is a question, not an assertion

    Well Dav, as I said to you previously, if you have to resort to attacking the presentation of the question rather than its substance it’s a sure sign of theory cracks. However attacking the author of the question by accusing them of unfounded allegations of racism puts an entirely ugly new face on your redirective tactics particularly in light of ball not man and all that.

    Not to worry though Dav, I would never lower myself by accusing you of being hypocritical in your strict observance to the rules of the English language by suggesting that the above direct quotation is grammatically nonsensical. ; – ]

    Now let’s look at your at your assertion, the following is taken from the Collins concise English dictionary :

    Rhetorical [adj] – concerned with effect or style of writing and speaking; “a rhetorical question is one asked solely to produce an effect (especially to make an assertion) rather than to elicit a reply.

    So Dav, your assertion,

    “Surely you are not suggesting that they deserve better treatment than the locals because of, [sic], they are Irish ?” is a question, not an assertion”,

    seems perfectly correct when presented in a vacuum devoid of framework however when placed in the correct context it was used, i.e. :

    “They deserve better treatment than the locals because they are Irish ? Racist indeed WOCI ”

    It then becomes rhetorical and therefore an assertion, simple really.

    We can play semantics if you wish but personally I prefer to stick to the central tenet of the discussion namely evidence. Now, regarding THAT evidence Dav?….

  • Davros

    Let’s wait and see how the transparency of the appeal pans out before we make accusations of what laws they’ve broken in Colombia,

    Cleverly worded as to suggest to people that they have broken NO laws …….

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Let’s wait and see how the transparency of the appeal pans out before we make accusations of what laws they’ve broken in Colombia,

    Cleverly worded as to suggest to people that they have broken NO laws

    If that’s the reading you take from the posting then that’s your own business, My intention was to state that before condemning someone it’s generally accepted that the evidence against them is examined first which patently hasn’t been the case here as the appeal was held in CAMRA.

    Davros whichever points you have raised I have tried to respond posting links etc wherever possible. You, on the other hand, have diligently avoided answering any of the questions I have asked preferring instead to resort to playground ridiculousness, insulting accusations of racism and asking questions deliberately bereft of context.

    Let me summarise the questions for you :

    – What evidence do you forward to brand someone an informer?

    – On what evidence do you advocate the incarceration of a person in camp x-ray?

    – Do you find it acceptable condemn someone without first examining the detail of the accusations against them?

    – Do you think it correct to question the thoroughness of evidence on some cases but ignore the quality of it on others?

    Davros I’m beginning to get fed up with your constant slippery evasiveness, it’s getting extremely tiresome. If you want debate fair enough, address the questions I raise, if not then continue with your diversionary tactics and attempted distractions.

    At risk of repeating myself AGAIN I prefer to stick to the central tenet of the discussion

    Put up or shut up

  • Davros

    I have already told you WOCI – I won’t play your games 🙂 The Colombia 3 are criminals. They chose to illegally enter a country. They can take their punishment. Good for Henry Hyde.

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    “I have already told you WOCI – I won’t play your games”

    Translation –

    I have no evidence to back my assertions and can’t answer your very direct questions.

  • Davros

    Whatever 🙂 I’m not worried. The world knows that the Colombia 3 are criminals despite your silly games.

  • Butterknife

    Well appears to me that as the three hares are on the run that they may not be as innocent as it seems.

  • Weapons Of Crass Instruction

    Ach Davros! ,

    I was considering giving you enough rope to hang yourself with on this one but considering that the crux of the issue is weight and quality of proof and given in response to tangible, defined questions you seem to base your entire argument on such a devastatingly compelling point as “sure everyone knows anyway”,[wink,wink], I think that you’ve dug enough of a hole for yourself.

    I know how much you like to have the last word on things so, given the spirit of the season etc, I’ll let you have it. Enjoy!. :-]

    BK, IF The Colombia Three are on the run then I’m not sure how much of an inference this is to guilt. Let me put it like this;

    If I were faced with spending what amounts to a life sentence in hellish conditions which don’t conform to even the most basic of human rights norms, convicted on the word of evidence discredited by both oral alibi and video evidence in a country with a notoriously corrupt administration or skipping over the border I know which option, regardless of my guilt or innocence, I’d go for, and it wouldn’t involve eating Christmas dinner behind bars.

    And what’s more BK, I defy anyone with even a modicum of basic human survival instinct to come to a different conclusion.