Guns and the individual…

In the current context of Northern Ireland, with some many illegal arms still in circulation, this emotional argument (in the wake of the horrific killing of a neighbour) from friend and fellow blogger, Perry de Havilland comes as a bit of a radical departure for what few in Northern Ireland have given too much thought to – the liberalisation of gun law.

  • fair_deal

    I sincerely believe this will grow as an issue over the next decade. However, I dont expect it to be a rational debate.

  • Davros

    To some extent this is already the cazse in NI Mick.

    Gerry Fitt wasn’t prosecuted when he used a LHW to defend himself against a SF/IRA lynch-mob

    Mr McCloskey wasn’t prosecuted when he used his Uncle’s LHW to defend himself against a SF/IRA punishment squad

    Danny O’Connor wasn’t prosecuted when he used his LHW to defend himself against a UDA mob.

  • maca

    Jesus, it could end up like America with every second person “packing”.

  • Davros

    According to certain people, every second prod is already packing πŸ˜‰

  • Young Fogey

    It’s hardly a radical departure for De Havilland who is a radical right-libertarian. However, he does have a point in that the post-Dunblane gun laws in GB, probably the strictest in the world, have been a complete failure. Gun crime has more than doubled in Britain since then.

  • Super Freak

    Lets not forget that Ulster Resistance/DUP were armed with legally held guns. It doesn’t matter if they came from Libya or a gunshop they are dangerous in the wrong hands. In America you are more likely to be injured with a gun if you have one at home and you are as likely to shoot a relative as you are a robber.

  • Mario

    Everyone packs here in Argentina, specially in BA’s. Does nothing to reduce crime rate, but it makes Futbol matches that much more dangerous.

    Beware of the “barras” ( crazed futbol fans) they are our version of paramilitaries.

    Personally, I beleive guns have no business in civilian hands. It promotes more violence.

  • Davros

    Lets not forget that Ulster Resistance/DUP were armed with legally held guns.

    Let’s not forget that apologists for the IRA like to claim that Ulster Resistance/DUP were armed with legally held guns.

  • Super Freak

    What is your point Davros? UR was armed with legally held weapons and were linked to the DUP and (wrongly) implying that I’m a supporter of terrorism doesn’t lessen those facts.

  • Davros

    Ah me Superfreak – my point is that it is dishonest to put the DUP in the same position in respect to UR as SF in respect to the IRA πŸ™‚
    Secondly – can I have some proof that UR was armed with legally held weapons ? I’ll set aside that small point that a LHW that is used illegally has ceased to be a LHW.

    How many people were convicted of UR membership?

    When were they convicted ?

    What crimes had they committed ?

    What weapons did they have ?

    How do you know that those holding those weapons obtained them legally ?

    No dogs-in-the-street evidence and no hear-say.

    I look forward to your answers and proof that there was any substantial DUP involvement akin to oh, let’s see, Niall Bennett or That SF chap in Colombia or that SF councillor in the ROI who was booted off a Council as he didn’t attend – because he had been wounded in an IRA fire-fight with The Security forces and was laid-up for months… and who later died in another attack.

  • Super Freak

    “Douglas Berndhart, an American-born agent for Boss, apartheid’s secret intelligence agency, put loyalists in touch with a Lebanese gunrunner, Joe Fawzi, in 1987. The UDA, UVF and Ulster Resistance paid Fawzi around Β£300,000 (stolen in a bank robbery in Portadown) for a large consignment of weapons, including hundreds of AK47s that had fallen into the hands of Lebanese Christian militias. These weapons had been captured from the retreating PLO, which was expelled from south Lebanon in 1982.”

    Henry McDonald, The Observer May 14 2000

  • Super Freak

    “The DUP claimed that party links with the organisation had ended in 1987. Two members of Ulster Resistance were arrested in April 1987 in Paris along with a South African diplomat. It was claimed that there had been an attempt to exchange information on Shorts’ missile technology for weapons. In the late 1980s some former members of Ulster Resistance joined another grouping called Resistance.”

    CAIN website

  • Davros

    That’s it ? LOLOLOLOL

  • Davros

    How many people were convicted of UR membership?

    When were they convicted ?

    What crimes had they committed ?

    What weapons did they have ?

    How do you know that those holding those weapons obtained them legally ?

    No dogs-in-the-street evidence and no hear-say.

    I look forward to your answers and proof that there was any substantial DUP involvement akin to oh, let’s see, Niall Bennett or That SF chap in Colombia or that SF councillor in the ROI who was booted off a Council as he didn’t attend – because he had been wounded in an IRA fire-fight with The Security forces and was laid-up for months… and who later died in another attack.

    So where are the Legal weapons ?
    LOLOLOLOL
    Where are the convictions ?
    Where are the DUP members convicted of crimes associated with UR ?
    In fact, aside from one claim of arms smuggling , what crimes have any UR members been convicted of carrying out ? Did they kill any Garda like the IRA did ?

  • Davros

    Quote : “Lets not forget that Ulster Resistance/DUP were armed with legally held guns.”

  • Super Freak

    “In 1981, he (Paisley) appeared on a hillside in the dead of night with 500 men brandishing firearms licences.”

    Martina Purdy
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/northern_ireland/3109773.stm

    Its funny how many journalists are apologists for the IRA. And thank you Davros this is why I hate posting on Slugger, you made me read Henry McDonald. I’m away to take a shower

  • Davros

    Supposedly waving FACs πŸ™‚

    You made an outrageous statement, You were challenged and now are running away.

  • Davros

    Pssst — there was a difference between a FAC and a shotgun certificate in 1981 πŸ™‚

  • Davros

    and Ulster resistance didn’t even exist in 1981 ….

  • Super Freak

    ”In parallel, the DUP adopted more strident tactics such as Ulster Resistance. None of these strident tactics succeeded.”

    Dermot Nesbitt

  • Super Freak

    The difference between Third force and Ulster resistance is like the one between the IRA adn DAAD

  • Davros

    Still nothing to prove that your outrageous claim that “Ulster Resistance/DUP were armed with legally held guns” SF πŸ™‚
    Still no details of any convictions.

    500 idiots waving bits of paper that may or may not have been shotgun certificates FIVE YEARS before UR was formed is the best you can do ?

  • Davros

    Proof that the third force used , legal or illegal, weapons ? Convictions for murder ?

    Sorry SF, if you post Noraid-style propaganda, you’ll be challenged to back up your claims.

  • Mario

    Actually, I think he presented some facts worth looking into. And as far as convictions. How could they be convicted? Most of em were in collusion (sp?) with security forces. Or does that merit a LOL from you as well?

  • Davros

    what “facts “?

    a claim that a parade of men (five years before UR was formed ) waving bits of paper ( were any of them actually carrying weapons ? ) somehow proves that UR were armed with legally held weapons ?

    merits a big LOL πŸ™‚

    The Illegally imported weapons ( no proof ) some of which MAY – no proof, no mention of numbers, have gone to UR. No DUP connection proved. Most certainly NOT legally-held weapons , which was after all the point to which I objected.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Lets not forget that it was a British soldier and loyalist killer, Brian Nelson, who arranged the shipment of guns from S Africa to the UDA, UVF and yes Davros Ulster Resistance.
    Michael Stone admitted sourcing the UR weapons. A recent book on the UDA stated that Adair also tried to get his hands on the UR weapons.

    As far as we know UR still has these weapons, there is no evidence to the contrary. UR was formed by the DUP. Those weapons are therefore the responsibilty of the DUP.

  • Super Freak

    Sorry Davros if I can’t keep track of DUP sponsored paramilitary organisations but it just goes to prove my point. Organisations can be declared illegal and then change their name especially if they are legally entitled to carry weapons otherwise we could charge them with illegally possessing a weapon whether they are with the IRA or the scouts

  • Davros

    Superfreak – all that I am asking is that you withdraw the claim that these organisations were armed with Legally held guns. That’s absolutely untrue. There was a UR/DUP link. But beyond that it’s all supposition and innuendoregarding the DUP.

  • Davros

    Again Pat – what evidence is there that these AK47s or any other supposed UR weapons are legally held ?
    They cannot be legally held.

    No UR convictions for terrorist acts in NI AFAIK.
    No DUP members banged up a lΓ‘ ( bad pun) SF members in jail for crimes .

  • Super Freak

    Davros the problem with legally held guns is its hard to get a conviction. It shows a bias in the police that no members of Third Force/UR/DUP were convicted although a DUP election worker was jailed for UR activities.

  • Super Freak

    Do you expect people to believe that none of the license waving yahoos in county Antrim in 1981 joined UR 5 years later. I know Loyalist paramilitarys got disillusioned with Paisley but surely not that quickly

  • Davros

    Absolute nonsense SuperFreak πŸ™‚

    Hint: AK47’s couldn’t be legally held in the 1980’s.

    I would appreciate details of the DUP election worker jailed for the UR activities.
    The rest is froth. There’s no proof that those 500 actually held shotguns , let alone Firearms. There’s no proof that any of the supposedly imported weapons were given to UR πŸ™‚ It’s all supposition and a smokescreen to try and legitimise SF/IRA having held onto it’s weapons.

  • Super Freak

    “The group was organised in nine ‘battalions’ and members wore a red beret. In November 1988 there was an arms find in County Armagh and the subsequent arrest of a former DUP election candidate brought accusations of links between DUP politicians and armed paramilitary groups.”

    CAIN website

  • Davros

    No names, and note – FORMER election worker. You should be more precise. Was he still a DUP member at time crime was committed ?

  • Davros

    and still waiting for ANY proof that these supposed UR weapons are or were Legally held….

  • aquifer

    The point is that the DUP had no objections against the use of threat of armed force per se, and presumably would have done more than threaten if things had gone too far from their way. Anyhow they could bluster plenty under the protection of the armed security forces.

    And what about our right to safety in our own homes, and the advantages enjoyed by criminals schooled in intimidation and the rules of evidence and provided legal services wageearners cannot afford?

    Political freedom starts behind a closed front door, reflected in American search law, and different rules should apply for those who chose to violate homes and humans. It is obvious that we have a duty to detain and if needs be incapacitate such offenders as a minimum, as there is insufficient deterrence in police detection rates and in current legal responses.

    Our politicians have been licensing criminality for too long, we should be less tolerant, and justice less understanding.

    What consideration do victims receive from criminals?

    The balance of terror is with the perps now.

  • Super Freak

    Davros how much more proof do you need or has the University of Ulster joined the list of Sinn Fein/IRA apologists?

  • Super Freak

    Do you think the DUP is above abandoning its embarrasing elements?
    Why do you think he is hates by loyalist prisoners

  • Henry94

    We could, from time to time, try to have a debate about an issue on its merits in the overall European context without getting sidetracked into our own local rows.

    There has been an overwhelming consensus in favour of gun control in Europe for many years but there are signs that this consensus may unravel.

    Gun crime linked to drugs is the cause of the growing sense that the police can’t protect society and the individual may have to take responsibility for his own protection.

    The legalisation and regulation of the market for recreational drugs may be the only way of ensuring that violence is reduced. It is, to me, a gloomy prospect but we may have to face up to it. It would need to be done across the EU.

  • maca

    Henry
    I’d argue though that the biggest problems are with hard drugs, where all the money is to be made. I can’t imagine too many druggies, even UDA druggies, willing to put their lives on the line for canabis or extacy. There’s a fortune to be made in the hard drug business though and the return is worth the obvious risk.
    There’s no way we could consider to legalise and regulate hard drugs. IMHO.

  • Davros

    Davros how much more proof do you need or has the University of Ulster joined the list of Sinn Fein/IRA apologists?

    You haven’t given me any proof that UR were armed with Legally held weapons πŸ™‚ You made a fool of yourself by using a stunt involving bits of paper from 1981, FIVE years before UR were formed, as “evidence”.

    You produced someone, NO Name, who was a FORMER DUP election agent and claimed he was an election agent at the time of his supposed involvement.

    You have produced no named convictions and no details of any crimes committed in NI by UR.

    No harm to you, but you seem to be struggling.

  • Super Freak

    Davros its irrevelant what the group was called third force or UR they were DUP linked and the bits of paper they carried were firearms licenses. Third force and UR were just names of convienance the fact remains that threats were made with legal guns which is why we shouldn’t be relaxing guns laws which is something you haven’t addressed.

  • Davros

    Davros its irrevelant what the group was called third force or UR

    Nope.You made a specific statement that UR/DUP were armed with legally held weapons that you have failed to prove. Why not admit that you made a post that showed your ignorance ? You didn’t even know that UR was only formed in 1986.

    the bits of paper they carried were firearms licenses.

    Which again you have failed to prove πŸ™‚
    Add to that the fact that you don’t even understand that there was a HUGE difference between a Shotgun Certificate and a Firearms certificate.

    why we shouldn’t be relaxing guns laws which is something you haven’t addressed.

    Who has suggested relaxing gun laws in Northern Ireland? The gun laws are stricter here than in the UK or the ROI πŸ™‚

    you are out of your depth.

  • Super Freak

    Guns and the individual…
    In the current context of Northern Ireland, with some many illegal arms still in circulation, this emotional argument (in the wake of the horrific killing of a neighbour) from friend and fellow blogger, Perry de Havilland comes as a bit of a radical departure for what few in Northern Ireland have given too much thought to – the liberalisation of gun law.

  • Super Freak

    “In 1981, he (Paisley) appeared on a hillside in the dead of night with 500 men brandishing firearms licences.”

    Martina Purdy
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/northern_ireland/3109773.stm

  • maca

    Dav, I’ve been agreeing with you for most of this argument but I just want to pick up on one point which SF mentioned.

    “they were DUP linked and the bits of paper they carried were firearms licenses” + “threats were made with legal guns”

    They could have been menus from a Chinese restaurant πŸ˜‰ but all reports I have read said they were gun licences. When I first read about this incident I was appalled and the impression I got was that they were saying that “we’re allowed to have guns and you’re not”. I saw it as a threat.

    That’s all, now carry on with your agurment πŸ˜‰

  • Super Freak

    Davros I had accepted yesterday that I’d got UR/Third force mixed up you have my heartfelt apologies for that.

  • Super Freak

    Can everyone stop calling me SF, it wasn’t intentional

  • maca

    Sorry SF.

  • Super Freak

    I’m just a Rick James fan.

  • Davros

    SuF: Perry H lives in England and the murder was in England (London) – there’s no suggestion that Gun Laws here be liberalised, a move which I would oppose.

    Maca : AFAIK nobody has yet proved that any of those 500 idiots actually held a shotgun certificate, let alone a Firearms certificate. Of course the media accepted that they were valid… otherwise there wouldn’t have been a story πŸ™‚ I remember at the time being horrified and outraged, as were all the people with whom I shot, Protestant and Catholic.

    and I’ll repeat : the only uses of LHWs that I remember recently were
    1) McCloskey in Derry using his Uncles Legally held shotgun to hold off a SF/IRA punishment squad
    2) Danny O’Connor using a LHW to see off Loyalist thugs and terrorists.

    NB: both times LHWs were held and used by RCS !!!

  • maca

    Dav “as were all the people with whom I shot” – you may want to clarify that πŸ˜‰

  • willowfield

    Mario

    Actually, I think he presented some facts worth looking into. And as far as convictions. How could they be convicted? Most of em were in collusion (sp?) with security forces. Or does that merit a LOL from you as well?

    Most “Third Force” members were in “collusion” with the security forces? Have you any evidence for this claim?

    Did the “Third Force” exist in any sense other than a few farmers appearing on a hillside one night?

    Pat McLarnon

    As far as we know UR still has these weapons, there is no evidence to the contrary. UR was formed by the DUP. Those weapons are therefore the responsibilty of the DUP.

    AFAIK, the DUP disowned UR before it imported weapons and had no involvement in the importation of weapons. Moreover, there is no evidence that UR still exists, nor that the DUP had or has any connection to it since it disowned it.

    There is little basis, therefore, for your claim that weapons imported by UR are the responsibility of the DUP.

    No-one believes this. Not the police. Not even Provisional SF.

  • maca

    On the other hand Willow the DUP did form UR, UR did import weapons which are still in the hands of terrorists today (UDA et al) so does that mean the DUP can just wash their hands of the matter by ‘disowning’ UR?
    If SF say they disown the IRA does that absolve them of all responsibility?
    In my opinion No to both cases.

  • Davros

    LOL Maca πŸ™‚ As previously posted, I took part in competitive clay pigeon shooting on both sides of the border.

  • maca

    What “colour” were the clay pigeons? πŸ˜‰

  • Davros

    Depended on the conditions and preferences, but usually a kind of Ochre colour πŸ™‚

  • maca

    πŸ˜‰
    Out of 25 what would you normally shoot?

  • Mario

    Fair enough Willowfield, I retract my statement, I do not have any proof, but like I said, I think he made some points “worth looking into” I just dont think that anyone who questions this relationship( DUP/UR) is an IRA aplogists as they were being accused.

    For my part, I beleive guns to be evil. I say PLAY FUTBOL NOT WAR.

    Any links to NI futbol? A friend asked me, and I didnt know of any.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    The fact is weapons in the hands of unionists and their paramilitary followers have to be addressed.

  • Davros

    That’s an unfair question Maca πŸ™‚

  • Davros

    Illegal weapons have to be addressed Pat, regardless of the politics of the holder.

  • maca

    I’ve only been shooting twice. Only hit 15/25. Great spΓ³rt though!

  • maca

    …sorry, directed at Davros that was.

  • Davros

    Which sort was it Maca ? Trap, Skeet or Sporting ?
    It’s addictive:)

  • willowfield
  • Mario

    Thanks Willow and may our countries ( your province) one day meet in a glorious day of Futbol. GOOOOOOLLLLLLLL!

  • willowfield
  • willowfield
  • maca

    Davros, trap & sporting. Sporting was very difficult, first time to do it though. Great craic altogether!