Saville: huge costs, few conclusions?

Interesting leader in the Daily Telegraph, which as Lord Saville brings his Inquiry to a close asks, was it worth it? It answers that although it may have been cathartic for some members of the Catholic community, not everyone has been equally well served. And in particular, the high cost of the inquiry leaves questions about how other victims of the Troubles have been treated.

Elsewhere in the paper Joshua Rosenburg reports on the Inquiry’s huge cost and an apparent lack of concrete conclusions.

  • Davros

    IMO Saville was a PR exercise.

  • willowfield

    Hands up who’s surprised.

    In broad brush terms, we already knew what happened before the tribunal anyway. It has added little to our knowledge at great cost.

  • maca

    Well it was interesting reading the testimonials anyway.

  • Davros

    I’m looking forward to seeing if any of our Poets write anything of this standard –

    BUTCHER’S DOZEN: A LESSON FOR THE OCTAVE OF WIDGERY

    I have my doubts.

  • Fraggle

    tell us what you knew happened willowfield?

  • barney

    It would have been cheaper to not shoot 27 unarmed citizens in the first place. The British Army should sell a couple of helicopters to repay the hardpressed taxpayer. Then, when the finances are taken care of, we could set our big brains to thinking about the real issue – state sponsored mass murder.

  • Henry94

    The Telegraph surpasses itself

    Reopening old wounds does not always lead to forgiveness, especially in an Irish context

    No British context to this? No it all happened in a far away country of which we know little.

  • Davros

    a far away country of which we know little.

    a typical Belfast attitude towards Derry πŸ˜‰

  • willowfield

    Fraggle

    tell us what you knew happened willowfield?

    We all know that the marchers were shot by the Army, and that the marchers weren’t armed and hadn’t attacked the Army. In other words, it was the Army’s fault. We also know that there was confusion and fear among the Army, albeit this doesn’t excuse them firing.

  • Millie

    Fear and confusion among the Army? From all that return fire they came under I suppose? Come on this is the Para’s we’re talking about, the delinquents and short-of-grey-matter regiment. They sent them in precisely cos the Para’s had a fairly lax attitude to human life in general, every army has its scumbag element and the Para’s fit the bill perfectly.

    And who cares how much it costs? Let the British govt stump up the cash, it’s the least they can do. Unfortuntely inquiries can only give recommendations and even then the govt of the day can choose to ignore them. Saville was an exercise in damage limitation, at best an attempt to shift the blame for the killings onto the soldiers themselves and no-one. British squaddies don’t even have the gumption to tie their own shoelaces unless they’ve been given permission, so the idea that the soldiers ‘ran amok’ with no authority from higher up is a joke.

  • barnshee

    What we also know “know” is that the crowds taunted ,threw bricks, iron bars, tins of shit etc at a crowd of very young soldiers and IMO the soldiers got pissed off (excuse that) and shot a few. Not the first time (I remember a petrol bomber being shot). The Derry community had been moderately successful at killing soldiers and the soldiers not unreasonably killed a few back. That’s what happens when you have an army acting as a police force. (IRAQ any one) Personally I’m sorry for the squaddies

  • barnshee

    “the Para’s had a fairly lax attitude to human life in general”

    Er thats what soldiers do- It is clear that some of the higherranks had the opinion that shooting a few ringleaders would clear the streets – yes it did.

  • Davros

    Millie – do you think that the Paras were unaware of the murder of 2 policemen in Derry 27th January and the Murder of a policeman in Belfast 28th January ?

    The Paras are and were good Soldiers. They have a better human rights record that the IRA units they faced, including the IRA Derry Brigade. If in your eyes they are scum, where does that leave Martin McGuinness and the rest of the IRA ?

  • Davros

    Good post barnshee.

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    It doesn’t matter what your opinion of the army is, you can’t pass the death sentence on people chucking bricks and stones. Governments which avoid living up to international human rights standards will find themselves feeding the terrorist organizations.

  • maca

    Barnshee
    “That’s what happens when you have an army acting as a police force. (IRAQ any one) Personally I’m sorry for the squaddies”

    You seem to be excusing the shooting of unarmed civilians. Such shooting is unacceptable in any circumstances. And don’t try and pretend their age was an excuse.
    Funny you should bring Iraq into it. There’s a hell of a difference between war in Iraq and a riot in NI, yet even in Iraq the killing of unarmed combatants nevermind civilians is not accepted…or have you been watching the news recently (criminal investigation ongoing)?

    “Er thats what soldiers do”
    No it’s not.

    “It is clear that some of the higherranks had the opinion that shooting a few ringleaders would clear the streets – yes it did.”

    What gun shot do you think cleared the streets? The first, second? What’s the excuse for the rest of the gun shots?

  • Henry94

    Davros

    Weren’t you the one who was looking for an apology for Birmingham. If somebody tried to excuse it by say that’s what the IRA do, I’m sure you would have found it offensive.

    In the interest of future dialogue I will refrain from telling you what I think of your defense of the Bloody Sunday murderers.

  • Davros

    Henry – why do you assume I am defending the Bloody Sunday murderers ?
    Is it because I won’t join the rabble baying for the Blood of every para ?

    Like it or not Henry, what I wrote is the truth.

    The Paras have a better human rights record than the IRA.

  • Henry94

    davros

    on the Birmingham thread you had this exchange with cg

    cg – Davros we still havent got an apology from the british government for their state forces involvement in non-combatants killings.
    Their were two sides to the conflict, not just one, so i think that should be remembered.

    Davros – In the context of this thread is that not ‘whataboutery’ cg ?

    Yet you think you can bring the IRA’s record into a discussion about the Bloody Sunday murders. You want to have it both ways.

  • Davros

    You are struggling Henry. I was responding to a silly post by Millie, sorry if the insult to the IRA hurt your feelings.

    Note the important part – in the context of this thread. It’s AWESOME that you try and airbrush the IRA out of events at Bloody Sunday. They were there.

    Saville in case you missed the point was to do with the illegal march, illegal marchers, rioters, the Army and the IRA. Birmingham was bombs placed among civilians. HUGE difference to any normal, decent human being.

    But I tell you what – Millie labelled the paras the scumbag element. You give me an example of an IRA man doing anything courageous like Sergeant Michael Willets, 3 Para, who won a posthumous George Cross for shielding a family 9 as it happens a Catholic family) when The IRA Bombed Springfield Rd Police Station, sacrificing his life to save theirs and I’ll leave this thread. Plenty of examples of the IRA killing kids, saving ? Thin on the ground.

    Sergeant Michael G. Willets, 27, 3 Para,

    On the evening of the 25th May 1971 a terrorist entered the reception hall of Springfield Road Police station in Belfast. He carried a suitcase from which a smoking fuse protruded, dumping the case on the floor he fled out-side, inside the room were a man a woman and two children and several police officers. One of the police officers raised the alarm then began organising
    an evacuation of the hall through the reception office. Sgt Willetts was on duty in the inner hall, on hearing the alarm he sent an NCO to the first floor to warn those above and hastened himself to the door towards which the police officer was thrusting those in the reception hall and office. He held the door open while all passed safely through and then stood in the doorway shielding those taking cover.
    In the next moment the bomb exploded with terrible force. Sgt Willetts was mortally wounded. His duty did not require him to enter the threatened area. All those people who were approaching the door from the far side agreed that if they had had to check to open the door, They would have perished. Sgt Willetts waited, placing his body as a screen to shelter them.
    By this act of bravery, he risked and lost his life for those of the adults and children.
    Sgt Michael Willetts was awarded the George Cross (Posthumous)

  • Henry94

    Davros

    Has Sgt Willetts anything to do with Bloody Sunday? No he doesn’t. He is simply another irrelevence introduced to distract attention from the killers and try to turn it into a discussion about the IRA. So stop waving his corpse around like a flag.

    You are adopting the dishonest strategy of the British media and the Soldiers lawyers. It didn’t work for them and it won’t work for you. Despite the evedience destroyed by the British Army and the lies told under oath by some of the soldiers the fact is that Lord Saville has enough evidence to come to the conlusions about Bloody Sunday that will vindicate the campaign of the victims families and see the lies of the Widgery whitewash overturned.

  • Davros

    Has Sgt Willetts anything to do with Bloody Sunday? No he doesn’t

    He has everything to do with Millie’s post Henry πŸ˜‰

    Swallow hard, and dry your eyes.

  • Davros

    Nothing to say about your attempt to airbrush away the presence of the IRA that day Henry ?

    That was a little dishonest of you πŸ™‚

  • Davros

    Nothing to say about the context of my remarks to cg Henry ? Bombing civilian pubs is rather different to a confrontation between an Illegal march, illegal marchers, rioters, IRA gunmen and soldiers, isn’t it ?

    And you have yet to defend your disgraceful mudslinging – where have I defended the individuals guilty of murder that day Henry ? I addressed a very ignorant and rabble-rousing post by Millie, as is my right. Heat and Kitchen. I not you haven’t condemned Millie for her nonsensical post … funny that.

  • Henry94

    Davros

    Don’t try to blame other people for what you posted.

    Having checked

    Millie – “the Para’s had a fairly lax attitude to human life in general”

    Banshee – Er thats what soldiers do-

    Davros – Good post barnshee.

    It appears to me that you accept Millies point that the paras had a lax attitude to life. The difference is that you think they are right. And then you whinge when they are criticised and lapse into the same whataboutary that you complain about from other people.

    I know it’s hard to be consistent but you should at least make some effort.

  • Davros

    God Henry that is REALLY pathetic πŸ™‚

    The Good Post Barnshee (7.22) was a response to

    What we also know “know” is that the crowds taunted ,threw bricks, iron bars, tins of shit etc at a crowd of very young soldiers and IMO the soldiers got pissed off (excuse that) and shot a few. Not the first time (I remember a petrol bomber being shot). The Derry community had been moderately successful at killing soldiers and the soldiers not unreasonably killed a few back. That’s what happens when you have an army acting as a police force. (IRAQ any one) Personally I’m sorry for the squaddies

    it immediately (one MINUTE) followed my response to Millie’s post which was at 7.21 PM…
    I was scrolling down and replying … I hadn’t READ the barnshee “That’s what soldiers do ” …

    you are just having a tantrum because it was pointed out that the Paras are angels compared to the IRA.

  • Henry94

    Davros

    The capitals? the bad language? the abuse? I’ll leave it for others to judge who is having a tantrum here.

    The Derry community had been moderately successful at killing soldiers and the soldiers not unreasonably killed a few back

    If that’s what you were applauding then you should be ashamed of yourself.

    No I’m off to bedd because I know you are capable of staying up all night to get the last word and I’m going to save you the bother. You’ll keep. Good night.

  • Davros

    Sweet Dreams Henry πŸ™‚

  • The Devil

    Given that Phil Coulter, Mitchel McLoughlin, John Hume and Dana all come from Derry, I think the Para’s showed remarkable restraint that day

  • Davros

    Henry will get you Mr Devil !

  • ulsterman

    I cannot see this costly sham achieving anything. The only thing it has done is line lawyers pockets and reopen old wounds.

    Whatever the findings. I bet they wont be to far from the original.

    Protestants will always say it was the IRA that opened fire. Catholics will take the opposite view.

    32 years is a long time. Things will have been forgotten. Evidence will have disappeared. And yes all the other victims of the Troubles should not be forgot.

    An expensive sham that will achieve nothing.

    God Save The Queen.

  • The Devil

    Ulsterman,

    Good job the queen wasn’t in Derry that Sunday or it would have taken God and a flak jacket to save her.

  • Henry94

    ulsterman

    Evidence will have disappeared

    As if by magic

    An Army sergeant has said he destroyed notes about Bloody Sunday when he was told by the
    Ministry of Defence he might have to give evidence.

    Three of the army rifles which fired fatal rounds during Bloody Sunday were destroyed despite assurances that they would be made available for forensic examination.

  • Davros

    Good Morning Henry:)

    Possibly that Sergeant felt that he was bound by an unwritten ‘code of honour’ ?

  • maca

    Davros
    A “code of honour” for any soldier must be to protect the innocent not hide the evidence ;))
    (just to add to the fire ;))

  • Davros

    LOL Maca – How is sunny Finland ? πŸ˜‰

  • maca

    Flippin’ cold!

  • Davros

    Lovely mild day here πŸ™‚ You should move to NI!

  • willowfield

    Millie

    Fear and confusion among the Army? From all that return fire they came under I suppose?

    No, from the atmosphere in the city at the time with all the IRA activity preceding, etc, and taunting, stone-throwing, etc.

    Come on this is the Para’s [sic] we’re talking about, the delinquents and short-of-grey-matter regiment. They sent them in precisely cos the Para’s had a fairly lax attitude to human life in general, every army has its scumbag element and the Para’s fit the bill perfectly.

    That’s just speculation, for which there is no evidence. And Saville won’t provide any evidence. Which is my point: we pretty much knew what happened on Bloody Sunday before Saville, and we won’t know very much more after Saville.

    And who cares how much it costs?

    Taxpayers.

    Let the British govt stump up the cash, it’s the least they can do.

    But the point is, if the inquiry doesn’t tell us very much that we didn’t already know, what’s the point? It hasn’t added greatly or significantly to our knowledge.

  • maca

    “You should move to NI!”

    And live with you lot, are ya mad?? ;))

  • Davros

    We need more people like you to lower the Idiot Quotient, raise the Intelligence Quotient and generally improve the gene pool πŸ˜‰

  • maca

    You’re too kind Davros πŸ˜‰ But if myself and Willow lived any closer there’s be another 30 years of trouble πŸ˜‰
    (just kidding willow)

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    As a poor speller (thanks for drawing attention to that)who missed out on a lot of formal education for various reasons I am trying ieSpell an on-line spell checker. It uses the US versions of words but that’s OK with me. I hope it doesn’t annoy you too much.

    Some of it’s alternatives for willowfield are wallowed vilified and willful.

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    Sorry, but US spellings do annoy me. They are another example of the “Americanisation” of our language.

    I’ve also noticed US pronunciations and terminology creeping in over the past 5 or 6 years:

    “apartment” instead of “flat”
    “skedule” instead of “schedule”
    “Lord Mayor Maskey” instead of “the Lord Mayor” or “Mr Maskey”
    “adverTISEment” instead of “adVERTisement”

  • Davros

    You are a hard man Henry πŸ˜‰

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    Your troubles are small.

  • maca

    Henry, Firefox has a spell checker which works in a number of languages.

    Actually Davros, you might be interested in this too. I just installed it and it seems to work pretty well.

  • maca

    Willow
    “They are another example of the “Americanisation” of our language.”

    It’s not just YOUR language.

    “apartment” –> We have always used apartment just as much as flat.
    “skedule” –> never in my life saw that
    “adverTISEment” –> we have always pronounced it this way

  • willowfield

    maca

    It’s not just YOUR language.

    I said “our”.

    “apartment” –> We have always used apartment just as much as flat.

    No. It’s only in recent years, prompted by property developers who think an “apartment” sounds more glamorous than a “flat”.

    “skedule” –> never in my life saw that

    I’m talking about the pronunciation – that was a phonetic spelling.

    “adverTISEment” –> we have always pronounced it this way

    We haven’t. It’s a recent trend copied from the US – a result of exposure to US TV, I suspect.

    Posted by: maca at November 24, 2004 01:44

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    No. It’s only in recent years, prompted by property developers who think an “apartment” sounds more glamorous than a “flat”.

    It does.

  • maca

    Willow
    “I said “our””

    yes and I said not just YOUR. By “our” you were excluding all English speakers who don’t speak British English.

    “No. It’s only in recent years, prompted by property developers who think an “apartment” sounds more glamorous than a “flat”.”

    As I said WE have always used apartment.

    “We haven’t”

    I know you haven’t but WE have.

  • Davros

    Thanks Maca. I found an Athens extension as well which should be handy!

  • Henry94

    maca

    Thanks for the link but now that I know the american version annoys willowfield it’s going to be tempting to stick with it

  • Davros

    Hey, spell checking that works πŸ™‚ Cheers Maca.

  • maca

    Ei kestΓ€. No problemo.

    Remember to use it now, no excuse anymore for dab spellering.

  • davidbrew

    beware spellchecker folks. I once had a religious client called Phyllis, to whom a post spellcheck letter was about to go, when the good Lord made me read it again. Lucky, or I would have had some explaining to do to “dear Phallus”

  • Millie

    What is the worst thing a soldier can do in any army? No, it’s not blowing some poor unarmed sod’s brains all over the deck, it’s disobeying a direct order. The Paras were given a free run that day to take out ringleaders of the Derry Young Hooligans, rioters who had previously been reducing many areas of Derry to rubble. Shooting unarmed teenagers also sent out a clear message to the IRA in particular and Irish Catholics in general that Britain wouldn’t stand for this civil rights nonsense anymore. British army militarists won the day, not the first time Britain would attempt to solve a political problem with violence.

    What we all want to know is who gave the orders? The Army were working under the authority of Stormont but none of the Unionist govt would have had the balls to give orders to shoot, that could only have been agreed with their Westminster counterparts, so which politicians have blood on their hands? What assurances did Paisley get that the march would be ‘dealt with’ for him to call off his own counter-demo? Why were the Paras of all people called in to police the march? And two and a half years after the troops went in, why were people still marching for their civil rights?

  • barnshee

    Millie
    “Let the British govt stump up the cash, it’s the least they can do.”

    AAHHHHH Let me remind you Governments DO NOT HAVE ANY CASH They steal from their citizens by a system called taxation . They do obscure this as much a spossible but in the words of John Donne (almost) “Send not to know who pays its thee”

  • Davros

    And two and a half years after the troops went in, why were people still marching for their civil rights?

    In this case because of the introduction of Internment without trial. The Bloody Sunday March was a single issue march, and obviously those free to march were not interned, so strictly speaking, those marching were not marching for their civil rights …as they weren’t interned.

  • James

    “so strictly speaking, those marching were not marching for their civil rights …as they weren’t interned.”

    Join the Society of Jesus recently?

    Fadder Jim

  • Davros

    LOL James – I do read their Irish Journal πŸ™‚


    “>Studies

  • Davros

    Bizarre, It worked on Preview.


    “>Studies

  • Davros
  • maca

    The DUP Hackers at it again? Feckers!

    studiesirishreview.com

  • Davros

    The poetry comes as a surprise !
    (The Smell of April )

  • Henry94

    Davros

    The Bloody Sunday March was a single issue march, and obviously those free to march were not interned, so strictly speaking, those marching were not marching for their civil rights …as they weren’t interned.

    The civil right is the right not to be interned. If internment is allowed that right is gone for everyone.

  • Davros

    Even IF I concede that, then the march was for a civil right, not civil rights ?

  • willowfield

    maca

    Who is the “WE” of whom you speak?

    Do you speak American English?

  • maca

    Willow
    “Do you speak American English?”

    No, Hiberno-English, which by your own previous admission is different to the English you speak.