Pushing Their Luck ?

McCartney calls for full Citizenship Rights for ex-prisoners

Sinn Féin MLA for Foyle and former political prisoner Raymond McCartney is today attending a conference involving former Republican and Loyalist prisoners,

and without a trace of embarrassment …

  • willowfield

    “Full citizenship rights” for ex-prisoners? What does that mean?

    “You play, you pay”: if there are any consequences of his crimes that McCartney doesn’t like, tough. He shouldn’t have committed them.

    These people are getting greedy. They’ve been let out early and still they demand more.

  • Henry94

    It’s a very welcome thing that a conference involving former Republican and Loyalist prisoners is taking place at all.

    If they can make peace with each other then I think we should do everything we can to facilitate them in their attempts to live normal lives. After all both Roman Catholics and London Protestants believe in the conncept of forgiveness. Don’t they?

  • cg

    “If they can make peace with each other then I think we should do everything we can to facilitate them in their attempts to live normal lives.”

    Henry I agree.

    This is part of the conflict resolution. There was a conflict here for 30 years and you can’t just sweep it under the carpet and forget about it.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    “London Protestants”

    Very good.

  • Davros

    I think it’s concessions too far.
    That loyalist and Republican convicts are both calling for concessions is neither here nor there.
    It’s not a cross-community thing where because ‘Loyalists’ and ‘republicans’ are involved it is deserving of any extra support – as there is no difference between them anyway. They are outcasts NOT because of their politics, but because of their crimes against humanity. If this HAD been a war, these would be the ones in front of a War Crimes Tribunal.

    I can think of no worse message to send kids teetering on the brink of becoming involved. It’s saying do what you like, and as long as what you do is bad enough,you’ll get a token punishment with no longterm effects on your life.

    Off soapbox.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    I thought republicans didn’t want to be citizens of this state? Isn’t a citizen someone who accepts the state they are in?

    Anyway, I only glanced at Ambrose’s post, and nearly died thinking Bob ‘I’m a QC you know’ McCartney QC had gone soft!

  • Davros

    If they can make peace with each other

    Dodgy thinking Henry – or is this the latest revision of history ? As I recall the “Armed Struggle ” was primarily against the state and the “Brits” rather than the Loyalist paramilitaries. That’s why the “I”s killed so many ordinary people who had nothing to do with the UDA and UVF.

  • cg

    “If this HAD been a war”

    Davros
    If it wasn’t a war then why are unionist’s always asking Republician’s if the war is over.

  • Davros

    Because those republicans who are asked think it was a war ….

  • Davros

    After all, if it was a war , Martin McGuinness could be asked questions by a War Crimes Tribunal about the chain of command that approved the Claudy Bombing on the same day as Operation Motorman.

  • cg

    “Because those republicans who are asked think it was a war ….”

    But surely Davros if that was the position then,unionists, by refering to the conflict as a war give the impression,at least,that they also believed it to be a war.

  • cg

    Davros
    I’m suprisied you have such a narrow outlook on the past that you cant accept the war for what it was… A WAR.

  • Davros

    Nope. I don’t believe it was a war. But I would like to hear from the IRA that “The War Is Over” – because I know they think it WAS a war.

  • Davros

    Depends on your definition of war 😉

  • cg

    ok Davros
    lets go down your road.
    If you don’t believe it was a war for 30 year’s then what was it, and please dont go down the road of the typicial unionist “terrorism” argument because we could be here for years defining terrorism. I personally prefer Cindy Combs defination in “Terrorism in the 21st Century”.

  • Henry94

    davros

    After all, if it was a war , Martin McGuinness could be asked questions by a War Crimes Tribunal about the chain of command that approved the Claudy Bombing on the same day as Operation Motorman.

    Sinn Fein have spoken in support of an enquiry into the Claudy bomb and it is high time there was such an enquiry.

    I don’t see any particular point in getting into the old “when is a war not a war” debate but I do feel it is absurd to think of it as a crime wave.

    It was a unique situation ceated by historical forces. people on all sides made choices based on circumstances, on emotion and often on the rhetoric of politicians.

    If those who gave the orders and made the sectarian speeches can be ministers I think we should let the footsoldiers be citizens in good standiing.

  • Davros

    If those who gave the orders and made the sectarian speeches can be ministers

    Fair comment. But then I don’t think they should be ministers either Henry.

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    If they can make peace with each other then I think we should do everything we can to facilitate them in their attempts to live normal lives. After all both Roman Catholics and London Protestants believe in the conncept of forgiveness. Don’t they?

    They should be thankful they got out of jail early. That’s more than enough for them. These murderers, bombers and thugs are owed nothing by society. This nonsense wasn’t part of the GFA.

    What are “London Protestants”?

    cg

    This is part of the conflict resolution. There was a conflict here for 30 years and you can’t just sweep it under the carpet and forget about it.

    That’s precisely what these terrorists want!

    I’m suprisied you have such a narrow outlook on the past that you cant accept the war for what it was… A WAR.

    But it wasn’t a “war”.

    If you don’t believe it was a war for 30 year’s [sic] then what was it, and please dont go down the road of the typicial unionist “terrorism” argument because we could be here for years defining terrorism. I personally prefer Cindy Combs defination in “Terrorism in the 21st Century”.

    It was a terrorist campaign.

  • Davros

    An inquiry is rather different from a WCT Henry.
    At an inquiry one can say that a code of honour prevents one from ….

  • cg

    “It was a terrorist campaign.”

    WF

    I hope that assumption includes the British forces or otherwise, i’m sorry to say, your full of shit.

  • cg

    “This nonsense wasn’t part of the GFA”

    WF
    niether was the IMC

  • willowfield

    cg

    I hope that assumption includes the British forces or otherwise, i’m sorry to say, your [sic] full of shit.

    No, the “British forces” were there in a counter-terrorist capacity.

  • cg

    “No, the “British forces” were there in a counter-terrorist capacity”

    Please WF
    Pull your head out of the sky and come back to reality,that last post would be laughable if the issue wasn’t so important.

  • willowfield

    Simple denials such as that don’t amount to very convincing arguments.

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    What are “London Protestants”?

    It is a term for Protestants who like being ruled from London. Do you like it?

    They should be thankful they got out of jail early. That’s more than enough for them. These murderers, bombers and thugs are owed nothing by society. This nonsense wasn’t part of the GFA.

    The prisoners are entitled to campaign for things that weren’t in the GFA. The GFA only binds the political parties and governments that signed it.

  • cg

    WF
    The RUC and the brits had a prolonged campaign of agression against the nationalist people.

    Even Graham Kerr (former head of FRU) believed the british state to be at war with the IRA.

    All impartial observers and historians agree that the british were a force in the conflict.

    To suggest that they were an honest broker is an insult to the famlies of those murdered at the hands of their death squads.
    p.s remember Brian Nelson.

  • willowfield

    Henry94

    It is a term for Protestants who like being ruled from London. Do you like it?

    Doesn’t seem to particularly useful or pertinent.

    The prisoners are entitled to campaign for things that weren’t in the GFA.

    Nobody said they weren’t.

    The GFA only binds the political parties and governments that signed it.

    The terrorists’ campaign could only be successful if one of the governments, and probably some of the parties supported it.

  • Davros

    The prisoners are entitled to campaign for things that weren’t in the GFA. The GFA only binds the political parties

    Don’t you think this puts Mr McCartney in an awkward position then ? He is after all a senior member of one of the signatory parties!

  • Henry94

    willowfield

    The terrorists’ campaign could only be successful if one of the governments, and probably some of the parties supported it.

    That’s how we got the IMC.

  • Davros

    Even Graham Kerr (former head of FRU) believed the british state to be at war with the IRA.

    “At war” has more than one meaning 🙂
    For example – Policemen in the USA talk of Mafia Families being “at war”. That doesn’t mean that it is a military conflict in which the geneva Convention should apply.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Gordon Kerr (Brigadier), rather than Graham.

  • Davros

    Graham as in “200 ways to cook Senna Pods by the Galloping Gourmet ” Kerr ? 😉

  • cg

    I was always under the impression it was graham.

  • cg

    I just researched it and stand corrected.His name is Gordon

  • Moderate Unionist

    Go Willowfield 🙂

  • willowfield

    cg

    The RUC and the brits [sic] had a prolonged campaign of agression against the nationalist people.

    Don’t be ridiculous. Theirs was essentially a counter-terrorist role, protecting society from terrorism.

  • George

    Willowfield,
    was the Anglo-Irish War 1919-1921 a war in your view or a terrorist campaign?

  • willowfield

    Not sure: I’ve never properly studied it. It certainly started off as a terrorist campaign, but it may have evolved into a legal war. Was there open fighting between identifiable armies? Did the IRA have de facto control of territory?

  • Tom Griffin

    Few modern wars conform to those kind of classical definitions anymore.
    Take Iraq. There is heavier fighting now than during the invasion.
    In some ways the conflict in the north was a precursor of the future, what some analysts call ‘fourth generation warfare.’
    There is a good weblog on the subject which I believehas been mentioned on Slugger before.

    http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/05/4gw_fourth_gene.html

  • Davros

    Calling it the Anglo-Irish War always strikes me as a misnomer that does an injustice to the Anglo-Irish of the Time. Brit/Planter-IrishIrish war would be more accurate.

  • Warm Storage

    Willowfield,

    Does that mean that Londonderrymen are Derrymen who like being ruled from London??

  • jen

    Hello – I’m working on a research project on the troubles. Apparently there were occasions when the RUC/Brits succeeded in pressuring suspects to release information about planted bombs, and were able to clear civilians out before the bombs went off.

    If you know of any such bombing incidents would you let me know where they happened and a rough date so I can link to sites of Google that talk about those incidents in more detail.

    Thanks a lot.